Shabana Mahmood, British Home Secretary: Do not make that boat crossing

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? the History Bureau Putin and the Apartment Bombs listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts with the European Athletics Championships the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists More Than The Score from the BBC World Service.

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1:15Hello, I'm Nick Robinson, BBC presenter, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. Today we are spending trivians on war and peanuts on peace. Wind power in the United States has been subsidised for 33 years. Isn't that enough? Solar for 25 years, that's enough. I don't have army. I don't have missile rockets. I have my body. I have my voice. I love singing and so my goal was always to do better and better at it. I was still in an induced coma in hospital when the world was defining me. For this interview, I speak to the British Home Secretary, Shabana Mahmood, in our BBC studio across the road from Parliament.

2:02You're going to hear about her plans to drastically overhaul the UK's asylum system and her description of the racist abuse she still experiences as the daughter of Pakistani immigrants that underpins her approach. Challenged about whether her plans will fuel racial divisions in the UK, she believes the opposite is the case, that a country without secure borders is, in her words, a less safe country for those who look like me. If the asylum system feels unfair, she tells me, resentment breeds anger and anger can breed hate. But as a minister in Britain's Labour government, her proposals have prompted significant opposition, both within her own party and beyond.

2:45Under the plans, refugee status will become temporary, with those granted asylum facing reviews every 30 months. If their home country is judged to be safe, they'll be told to return. As for children born in Britain to asylum seekers, the Home Secretary acknowledges that this presents a particular challenge and one she says she'll address in future announcements. Guaranteed housing support for asylum seekers will also end. There'll be newly defined safe and legal routes into the UK, although with an annual cap on numbers. There's also going to be a big jump in the amount of time refugees need to be residents in the UK before they can apply for permanent residence or indefinite leave to remain.

3:30It's currently five years and for those who don't get a job or claim benefits, for example, they might have to wait as long as 20 years. The message I'm sending is clear. I am trying to change the calculus in the minds of the people that are about to get on a boat, which is this is the worst way to come to this country. Even if you are granted refugee status, it is a difficult path to settlement. It will be much more difficult. And I'm doing that deliberately because I do not want people to get on boats and come to this country that way. I also don't want them to overstay their visas and then switch straight into the asylum route, which we know a lot of people do because they know it takes so long that by the time they get a definitive answer on their claim after multiple appeals, they've probably been here so long, they'll have accrued enough rights to stay.

4:15I'm trying to disadvantage those two groups deliberately because ultimately what I want to do is advantage the people that come here through safe and legal routes, which I want to set up and expand. Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Shabana Mahmood. I want to start with words you used in the House of Commons, words that you were asked to apologise for, words I am not permitted to repeat on air under BBC guidelines. But I'm sure you did it deliberately. You wanted people to hear, I think, the sort of abuse that you get. Yes, I did. But it was actually less about me in that moment and more that I was responding to the Liberal Democrat spokesperson at the time.

5:00But I had had a similar comment from others during the course of the debate in Parliament, which was to say that I was adopting far right talking points, that there wasn't this problem in our country, that even acknowledging or suggesting there was was somehow a failure on my part. And I just really wanted to lance that boil because I think that that assertion comes from a place of privilege, which is a place where someone doesn't have to walk through their life in this country and ever hear themselves told to F off home. And I just really wanted to challenge that because it is the direct opposite of why I am dealing with these issues.

5:41It's my job. I'm the Home Secretary. but I think that telling the truth about what the scale of a problem is is the first step you have to take before you can think about what the correct solutions are and it disappointed me very much that so many people in the house there's still a minority but you know they were pretty vocal were wanting to suggest there wasn't a problem at all it flies in the face of every experience that I have my family has and in fact that my constituents have as well I mean I don't pay attention to social media but there is a tonne of abuse that comes in my direction, not just from anonymous accounts every day, but even worse, named people in the real world who email me and write to me and tell me.

6:23And if I didn't have police officers as part of my security detail these days, I'm sure many of those would come up to my face and say it too. People would shout that abuse, effing P word, in your face. Yes, and it has happened more in recent times to not just myself but close family members, I worry about headscarf wearing women in my family in particular. I'm not alone in that. Every Muslim I know these days worries a lot more about vocal racism being shouted at them in the street. So it's got worse because last time you were here, we talk about your upbringing. We talked about the fact that your parents had come from Kashmir, how there'd been a baseball bat in the family shop to deal partly with thieves, but partly with racist abusers who came into the shop.

7:13And you said you were called that word back then. Yes. There has always been some racism wherever I've been, in the country, in my childhood, at school, at university, in my working life as well. It's not that it's never been there, but it's never been as much as I feel like it is now. You know, I was born in 1980. I spent the early years of my life in Saudi Arabia. My dad was a civil engineer, so we lived there for a while, returned home in the late 80s. we had avoided some of the worst of the skinheads, you know, era of British life in the 70s. But, you know, it's always been there, but it's not been there at the level that I think it is now.

7:48And why is that, do you think? Why is it worse now? I think there's more polarisation and division in society. I think that there has been a lot of scapegoating of Muslims in particular. The world changed after 9-11. it became much more acceptable to pin the actions of a minority of people claiming to act in the name of our religion on the whole of us and all of us being held to account for the actions of those individuals. So it has been growing over a period of time but I think at the moment there is deep polarisation. It isn't just in relation to what might be in extremism or terrorism but it is about the issue of migration itself.

8:24The story of who we are as Britain and ethnic minority Britain I feel is being contested today in a way it hasn't. for a decade or more. You know what some say, and some said it in the House of Commons, they say you make it worse by saying that the country is divided, you're fuelling the divide, you're legitimising the comments that some people make. But I'm struck by that phrase that you had, I know that a country without secure borders is a less safe country for those who look like me. You're claiming, are you, that if you get this right, this package on illegal immigration, there'll be less of that racist abuse.

8:58I think that secure borders are a precondition to unlock what I also believe is true, which is that the British people are a generous people, that we have welcomed people from all over the world and we have been willing to go on a journey with those people who have made this country their home, like my parents and others who've come here as migrants. We've gone on the journey with them. At the end of that journey, they become one of us. and I think that story of how we all become one of us is a really powerful thing about our country. It's an incredible thing in this multi-faith, multi-ethnic democracy of ours but I do think secure borders are a condition of that because when people feel that they are in charge of who comes in and who has to leave, that is the basis on which the wider generosity of the people is unlocked.

9:47Let's wind back. You've been clear that what you're trying to do is to say to people massed on the coast in France or people heading to the coast of France, don't think about it. You've talked about the WhatsApps, that they send each other, those potential asylum seekers, about what's on offer here. If you could write the WhatsApp as a result of the policies you've unveiled, what do you want them to hear? Do not make that boat crossing. Do not make that journey. Do not pay all of your money to people smugglers and criminals, because that's what those people are. They are criminals. They are not just people smugglers.

10:27They indulge in all sorts of other organised crime. These are highly sophisticated organised crime groups. People should not be giving their money to them. Sure, but they've heard that. They heard that under the last government. Again and again, people say, don't do it. But they say, no, no, either we're scared for our lives or we just think we can get a better life. We're prepared to pay. We're prepared to take the risk. So what's new this week as a result of what you've said that might change their calculus? That the risk is not worth it. And much of what is being sold to people as they make that decision to get on a boat is part of the package that we offer.

11:01It's the relative ease with which permanent settlement can be attained. It used to be the family reunification rights, which were very generous compared to our European counterparts, which were temporarily halted by Yvette Cooper when she was my predecessor and retained by me. The ability to melt into the illegal economy and to be able to earn money and to support themselves through illegal working. So there are big gaps in our system. Those are being exploited. They are being sold as part of the package to people so that they get on those boats and make those journeys. Is this too complicated, though?

11:34I mean, the Tories had a simple message. Now, you'll tell me it didn't work. But it did work a bit as a deterrent, the Rwanda policy, didn't it? Because it was very simple. You arrive, you won't get to stay here, you might get shipped off to Africa. Now, you'll say it didn't work, the courts didn't. allow it to happen and so on. But it seems to me your policy isn't at all simple. It's like, well, this might happen and that might change. And if the courts allow and if we get a vote through Parliament, what changes before next spring when the weather changes and a thousand people a day might be able to come?

12:06What's going to be different that should be on those WhatsApp messages saying, hold on, guys, don't even think about it? I think it does change the calculus because, firstly, people are being told there's free bed and board available and we're changing the rules about that. They will be told that they will quickly, if they just wait it out a few years, be able to attain settlement. We're changing the rules on that. The whole of the package at every stage, the journey from coming in this country, waiting for too much time to have your claim heard and whether you're going to get a grant of refugee status or not and the relative ease with which you can get permanent settlement, I think all of that has been a poor factor.

12:42I think it is right that we deal with those poor factors and the message I'm sending is clear. I am trying to change the calculus in the minds of the people that are about to get on a boat, which is this is the worst way to come to this country. Even if you are granted refugee status, it is a difficult path to settlement. It will be much more difficult. And I'm doing that deliberately because I do not want people to get on boats and come to this country that way. I also don't want them to overstay their visas and then switch straight into the asylum route, which we know a lot of people do because they know it takes so long that by the time they get a definitive answer on their claim after multiple appeals, they've probably been here so long they'll have accrued enough rights to stay.

13:20I'm trying to disadvantage those two groups deliberately because ultimately what I want to do is advantage the people that come here through safe and legal routes, which I want to set up and expand. And those people who come that way will have already been accepted as a refugee out of country. They arrive in country as a refugee. Their path to settlement, their path to building a life in this country will be faster, quicker, more successful, the easier path, the better path. That's what I'm trying to do. You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service, people shaping our world from all over the world.

13:57If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. With the European Athletics Championships, the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place, 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport.

14:43And the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action, bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists. More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

15:08For this episode of The Interview, I'm speaking to Shabana Mahmood. When I spoke to Shabana Mahmood in our BBC studio just opposite Parliament, it was the end of a long week of parliamentary statements, news conferences and political interviews. There was a sense, though, that she was speaking about it for the first time. She knows that what she's saying isn't just defining her, is defining this government and also the Labour Party. Get it right and it could help turn their fortunes round and it could ensure that she is seen as a future Prime Minister. Get it wrong, though, and they, she, are politically doomed.

15:54OK, let's return to my conversation with Shibana Mahmood. You're shocking some people who are lifelong supporters of a British approach. to refuge. Most notably, Lord Dubbs, 92 now, came over to this country on the Kindertransport, the son of a Jewish father in Czechoslovakia who survived because of the welcome that Britain gave to him. He said, I am worried that Shabana Mahmood is using children as a weapon because you've said that you would be willing to send children and families back home. What do you say to him? Well, look, I adore Lord Alf Dubbs. I think he's a really tremendous human being.

16:35And I always listen carefully to what he said. But on this occasion, I do disagree with him. Firstly, I would never use children as a weapon. That is not what is happening here. I set out a clear policy that for those people who arrive with their children, who are failed asylum seekers, we're not talking about people who have refugee status. We're talking about people who do not have refugee status because they've been through their multiple claims. They've been through the courts and they have been found not to be asylum seekers, not to be refugees. They've failed in their claim. We have not been removing those people to safe countries.

17:09I gave the example of Albania in my speech because we have a number of families from that country. This is a safe country. It's a signature to the ECHR. We have a returns agreement with this country and we're not returning those families because they have at least one child who's under 18. Have you seen what the Albanian Prime Minister has said about this? Yes, well... He's accused of ethnic stereotyping, indecent demagoguery, and he's accused of poorly echoing the rhetoric of the populist far right. I obviously disagree. And, look, we are talking about people who have failed in their asylum claim.

17:39We're not talking about people who are refugees. But you're also talking about people who have failed... You change the status of a country, aren't you? Because one of the things you've said is that you would review... Yes. ...if a country was now safe. So let's take a Syrian couple who fled Assad's brutal regime, maybe came here on a lorry before. Many people came here on the boat. They've got a child that they had here, child starting secondary school. You could say Syria is safe now. Assad is gone. Do you say that that child, that family has to go back? When you have failed asylum-seeking families, I think most of your viewers and your listeners would acknowledge that there is a perverse incentive there to still travel with your children.

18:18maybe put your children at danger if you know that we would never ever remove a family with children when they have failed in their claim. It is British taxpayers who are footing that bill. And I am sorry to say, you know, if people mind that, but it is true. And I have a responsibility to run a system based on fairness and contribution. And that is what I'm going to do. Now, what about the Syrian family? So if people come to this country through illegal means, so not through a safe and legal route, but through other means, then I think it is right for us to say that journey is not going to be worth it because the rules that you are going to be subject to are going to be tougher.

18:54In future or now? In other words, could this be retrospective? From the moment the rules come in, we will set out all of those changes in legislation. It's because you praised David Blunkett as a Home Secretary of Admire and he said to get these measures through Parliament, it will undoubtedly be necessary to clarify precisely what the status will be of children born in the UK or resident for many years. And let me just address that. We will consider the issues relating to children specifically and differently, not just for children, people who've come here, who've been born in this country, but also for those who arrive unaccompanied where we have another kind of problem.

19:27So I will deal with the issues of children separately and I will set out those plans in due course. So you accept it's got to be clearer. I recognise that there is an issue in children, but I was very open about that in the asylum policy statement itself. But it is right that if you're a failed asylum seeker, the fact that you have a child under 18 is not a reason why you should remain here in supported asylum accommodation forevermore. Let's just try and clear up a few policy questions quickly before we talk more about the philosophy of what you're trying to do as well. Can asylum seekers have their jewellery taken away from them in order to contribute to the cost?

20:01If they've got lots of jewellery. We are not going to be taking anybody's jewellery or any other assets at the border. Let me just be very clear about that. In the change that we are making, what we have in mind are those who do have high-value assets or have access to income. So a really smart watch, a diamond necklace. In fact, the thing we're talking about is e-bikes, because lots of people currently being supported in hotels have clearly access to money that they can get e-bikes. and cars. So the example I used in the chamber was of a gentleman who had access to£800 a month from family members in this country and had enough money to go and get himself an Audi.

20:42And he was not required under any of our rules to contribute towards the cost of his asylum accommodation. So he's not been granted refugee status. He's just waiting for his claim to be heard. So he's in asylum accommodation because we have a duty to support these people whilst the claim is being heard. And he doesn't have to contribute at all. Now, most British citizens have to contribute towards the cost of, you know, often accessing the benefit system. And if they have assets, that is taken into account when they seek social security money. So what I'm trying to do with that change is put asylum seekers on the same sort of playing field that British citizens are on.

21:17So to be clear, grandma's ring is not going to be taken off you. I'm not taking away sentimental joy. I'm not taking any other... You've got a flashy Rolex. Well, a flashy Rolex, an e-bike, a car, other high value assets, money, access to money that you haven't declared. I think it's right that we say to people, if you clearly can afford it, you should make a contribution. Now, talking money, at the moment, there are payments when people go home to encourage them to make that journey, to help them when they arrive in their home country. They're limited at£3 ,000 and you say you want them to go up.

21:49In Denmark, the country that you admire, they're over£20 ,000 paid. Are you willing to try that out? Yes, so I've already asked my officials to pilot a small programme where we offer more than what we currently do for a period just to see how that changes behaviour. But a lot,£25 ,000, that sort of money. Haven't delighted upon the full sums involved yet, but I am willing to consider a big increase on what we currently pay. And that is because for each asylum seeker in the country, it's£30 ,000 per individual per year. So it's a big sum of money. and if we can persuade people to return to their home country with a cash payment, that is often better value for the taxpayer.

22:29I know it sticks in the craw of many people and they don't like it, but it is value for money, it does work, and a voluntary return is often the very best way to get people to return to their home country as quickly as possible. The central philosophical thing that was the big change from the policies that Alf Dubs loved so much was the idea that asylum is temporary. you're only a temporary guest here as an asylum seeker. I think it's important that we recognise that refugee status, what it means today, is not what it meant when people like Alf and others came to this country. Often the people who claim asylum in this country, when they reach our shores, are doing so having gone through multiple safe countries in Europe before they came here.

23:16I think it's right that I say, if you're going to come in this way, We will still, if we find you to be a refugee, provide you with protection. You have sanctuary here, but it is not permanent. It is temporary. That is my way of signalling to people looking to get on a boat or overstay their visa. That is the very worst way to try and get to this country or to remain in this country. But what I've also been clear about is within that core protection route, where we're providing temporary sanctuary and it's reviewed every two and a half years, If those individuals are willing to work and want to make a contribution, we will create within that core protection model a work and study route for those people to begin contributing to life in this country and to help integrate themselves.

24:02And the path to settlement there will not be as good as if you came on a safe and legal route, but will be better. What I'm trying to do is signal this is the worst way to come and this is the hardest way to have a life in this country. safe and legal routes are the best way to come to this country and that life and that path to settlement will be easier and quicker. So I am deliberately trying to show the difference because I want to change the calculus of the people that are making these decisions. And by trying to change the calculus you're saying asylum is temporary not permanent. You're saying we may take some of your money away.

24:32We may bribe you to go back home. We may send you abroad with your children even if they ball here. Wouldn't that be neatly summed up by the phrase hostile environment? I think we're trying to show that there are ways to seek refuge and sanctuary in this country that we find acceptable because we can control them and we can do them in a way that unlocks the fall. It's hostile, isn't it? Look, I think we're a generous people and I am deliberately trying to send a message. Don't get on a boat. It is a dangerous thing to do. It puts your life at risk, but it also makes a lot of very bad people richer than they need to be.

25:07I still believe in sanctuary. I believe in helping people. I believe, in our country playing a part to offer refuge to people. But the way to do that is not to see the British Navy effectively acting as a taxi service across the channel, saving lives. It's not to make people smugglers rich people indeed. That is absolutely the wrong way to come to this country. But I do want to create those safe and legal routes. I've already set out plans for community sponsorship, for talented students, for skilled workers. I want them to have a future in this country, and I want my country to play its part.