Sir Anthony Hopkins: I turn turmoil into energy

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? the History Bureau Putin and the Apartment Bombs listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts with the European Athletics Championships the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists More Than The Score from the BBC World Service.

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1:15Hello, I'm Katie Razzle, the BBC's culture and media editor, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. I'm disappointed in him. I deal done four times and then you go home and you see just attack a nursing home in Kiev. I said, what the hell was that all about? I was still in an induced coma in hospital when the world was defining me, but I was still 15 years old and I did not know who I was. I love singing and so my goal was always to do better and better at it. Today we are spending trivians on war and peanuts on peace.

1:56For this interview, I met two-time Oscar-winning actor Sir Anthony Hopkins at a hotel in Beverly Hills, Los Angeles. Best known for playing the serial killer Dr Hannibal Lecter in the 1991 thriller The Silence of the Lambs, Sir Anthony's journey to Hollywood stardom started with rather humble beginnings. He was born into a working-class family in the Welsh steel town of Port Talbot in 1937, where his parents first ran a bakery and then later a pub. Their strong work ethic was imparted on their son, who despite struggling socially and educationally in his early years, was determined to make a success of himself.

2:36Throwing himself into reading and creative pastimes like music and art, Sir Anthony got a scholarship to the Welsh Royal College of Music and Drama in his teens, before later moving to London to study at the Royal Academy for Dramatic Art after completing national service. His early career saw him working alongside greats including Catherine Hepburn, Laurence Olivier, Richard Burton and Peter O'Toole across both stage and screen with his international breakout coming in the 1980 film The Elephant Man which received multiple Oscar and Golden Globe nominations. It would be another decade before he truly cemented his place as a Hollywood A-lister, playing the infamous serial killer Dr Hannibal Lecter, regarded by many as one of the greatest film villains of all time.

3:22But his journey to the very top was not only a professional struggle, but at times a personal struggle too. Well, my anger, uncontrolled rebelliousness, my relations with the people. I had no friends. They'd leave because I was pretty volatile. And I know the effects of alcohol. I'm not a preacher or anything like that. I'm just a good old sinner like everyone else. Tragically, it will kill you. And it will drive you completely crazy before you die. I mean, crazy behaviour, mad behaviour. And you can't live like that. I was out of control and I realised I couldn't beat this rap. I thought, well, I've had it.

4:03And it was a weird kick in the head. And I made a phone call. and suddenly, bright morning of 29th of December 1975, something said, it's all over, now you can start living. It's all been for a purpose. So don't forget one moment of it. And I take it from that, whatever that was, subconscious or whatever it is, or destiny, whatever, God, whatever you want to call it, some higher power within me, or the best part of ourselves. The craving left. I just never come back. And then so I gradually over the years learned to understand what the nature of it is. I wouldn't have missed it, but I don't want to ever go back there.

4:43Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Sir Anthony Hopkins. Looking back to 1942, I was four. I was a confused little boy, like all kids are. We come into this big, crazy world. We don't know the answer, we know nothing. So we feel all kinds of pressures and loneliness and fears. but I look back now a little confused by it and I said we did okay kid, we were okay because during my school years as a boy I was not bright See I think the bizarre thing reading this book is you clearly were bright you read the encyclopedia you knew about all sorts of things to do with astronomy you read Charles Dickens, you played the piano you were an artist and yet you were constantly being told you're not bright but you are clearly bright I guess so.

5:33Part of my brain is not very practical. I don't hide behind being an eccentric or anything like that. But yes, I was gifted with something. My father and mother, they worked very hard. I remember when my father dawdled these children's encyclopedias, and I was so captivated that I read every one of them, not quickly, but I read through them over the years. And I gathered the children's knowledge of things which were kind of useless knowledge in a way, but interesting for me. I knew about the height of the Empire State Building, the height of Everest and all that stuff. But I still couldn't quite get it, you know.

6:09And then the turning point was in 1935 or 17, my school reporter arrived and, you know, message of doom. My father opened the envelope and you've read this letter, a note from the headmaster, Anthony seems to be way below the educational standard of the school. and my father with all good intentions said I don't know what's going to happen to you what's going to happen to you I mean you know we're trying to help you can't you concentrate on them and I remember stepping back but a step and I said one day I'll show you both of you and I must have said it with determination I remember I said one day I'll show you and he looked at me he said well I hope you do and my mom said I'm sure you will and you did I did he put the report into the fireplace and within a few months I got a scholarship as an actor.

6:57I'd never acted before in my life to the Cardiff College of Music and Drama. I mean I've been so fortunate I couldn't take credit for any of it. I couldn't have planned any of this and now at 87, about to turn 88, I get up in the morning and think hello I'm still here and I still don't get it but because I've worked to some extraordinary people. I suppose luck is the only answer, Hanford. And you do write really movingly about your childhood and the fact that, you know, you're bullied by other kids. They say you've got an elephant head. You're written off by teachers. Your father tells you you'll never get anywhere.

7:34You'll never amount to anything in life. And then, of course, as you say, you said, one day I'll show you, and you have. What was it, do you think, that you had in you to succeed? And do you think if you hadn't been belittled, if people hadn't been saying you're going to never amount to anything. Do you think you would have succeeded? Or do you think it was actually the sort of constantly being told you wouldn't that really galvanised you? It did, yes. I think it gave me a core of anger, resentment and revenge. I think one day I'll show you all. But I think you come to a point, you think, don't be a victim.

8:06I decided I wasn't going to play a role of being stupid. So what I did to compensate my academic shortcomings, I would learn massive pieces of poetry and Shakespeare and my father would say to me, he said, do that piece from Hamlet. I'd say, OK, and I'd give him a couple of pieces of what a rogue and peasant slave am I, or to be honest me. And he'd look at me and say, how did you do that? He said, in school, you were hopeless. How have you done that? I said, no. Unfortunately, he'd lived long enough to see me ascend the steps of this profession and he's very proud. and he met some of the people I'd worked with, like Peter O'Toole and Lawrence Olivier and people like that.

8:47And he was astounded. I'm glad he was around to see me and my mother. And they were stalwart supporters. But it all turned inside out because of the so-called turmoil or shortcomings in my life. I turned them into power, I guess, or energy. You do also talk in the book very movingly about your personal battles with drink in the early days. You gave up alcohol 50 years ago. That's a very long time. At one point, Catherine Hepburn says, you know, what's wrong with all you Brits? There's just so much alcohol around. Do you understand? Do you know why? Why was there? Why was everybody drunk all the time?

9:29She said, you act as if you just drink all the time. What's the matter with you? You're all going to die young. You need to die. And she said, stop it. You've got to stop it and grow up. She was right. But in those days, being an actor, you know, you're a rebel. Everyone wanted to be Marlon Brando or James Dean. And so drinking was a tribute, you know, we're free, we don't need all this. And you get a lot of fun to a point. I was lucky to hear a little voice saying, one day it's going to kill you. Because I was beginning to lose control of my life, really. I mean, I would pick fights with people and I'd attack directors if they dared to look at me the wrong way.

10:08and they had a right because they were directed in spite of a gore. And that's not good. And you're honestly, when it comes to talking about your alcoholism, you paint this picture, you say, in your words, you say, I could turn very nasty and that's the ugly side of alcoholism. It brought out a brutal side of me. I'm not proud of it at all. What did you do at your worst? When you say that, what are you referring to? Well, my anger, uncontrolled rebelliousness, my relations with the people. I had no friends. They'd leave because I was pretty volatile. And I know the effects of alcohol. I'm not a preacher.

10:44I'm just a good old sinner like everyone else. Tragically, it will kill you. And it will drive you completely crazy before you die. I mean, crazy behavior, mad behavior. And you can't live like that. And I became aware of it. I was in a hospital in New York. I had a problem with my liver. many years ago. And the doctor said, yeah, he said, I see you at the bar every night after the show. And he said, I've sometimes gone there. He said, you know something, you're going to die soon. I said, oh, yeah. Why do you drink so much? Why do you smoke so much? I said, well, yeah, it's fun, isn't it? Okay, but you won't be here long.

11:26And that was the first inkling I had. I said, oh, God. I didn't stop. But a year later, I was in Los Angeles and I was really tearing it up there, impossible to work with. I was out of control and I realised I couldn't beat this rap. I thought, well, I've had it and it was a real kick in the head. And I made a phone call and suddenly, bright morning of 29th of December, 1975, something said, it's all over, now you can start living. It's all been for a purpose, so don't forget one moment of it. And I take it from that, whatever that was, subconscious or whatever it is, or destiny, whatever, God, whatever you want to call it, I have some higher power within me, or the best part of ourselves.

12:10The craving left. I just never come back. And then so I gradually over the years learned to understand what the nature of it is. And without lecturing or being an evangelist, I'm aware of it. I wouldn't have missed it, but I don't want to ever go back there. Because I know what it is. I've seen the witnesses in people, and it's a devastating killer.

12:34You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service. People shaping our world from all over the world. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

13:18With the European Athletics Championships, the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place, 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport. And the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action, bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists. More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

13:54For this episode of The Interview, I'm speaking to the 87-year-old multi-award-winning actor Sir Anthony Hopkins. We met at an upmarket hotel in Beverly Hills, and even in Los Angeles, where famous faces are two a penny, he gets noticed. As we wandered through the lobby together to a chorus of hellos and some excited waves that were warmly returned, he confided that people think actors are special. We're not, he told me. He began the interview a little reserved, but quickly warmed up, and it culminated in a private piano recital for me and the team. Sir Anthony playing us one of his own compositions on the hotel's grand piano.

14:35That was special. OK, let's return to my interview with Sir Anthony Hopkins. I'd like to talk about one of the roles that defines you, in a sense, still all these years on. You called it at the time a life changer. That is, of course, Hannibal Lecter. In Silence of the Lambs, you won your first Oscar for it. And, I mean, I watched it again recently, ahead of this interview. I haven't watched it since it came out. It is as terrifying now as it was then. Yeah. And that's down to you. Why? How did you manage that? I think you said you instinctively knew how to play Hannibal. I have the devil in me.

15:12We all have the devil in us. I know what scares people. How do you know that? My agent sent it over to the theatre where I was working. He said, it's not a very big part, but read it. So I started reading. So I told my agent, I said, is this a real offer? He said, I'm not sure. I said, I don't want to read it anymore because unless it's an offer. He said, why? It's a small part. I said, it's the best part I've ever read. And what it was, there's a scene where Jodie Foster's Clarice says, do you know Hannibal Lecter? You mean Hannibal the cannibal. And immediately you get that. And then she goes to the asylum, down into the passageway, down into the cells.

15:55Because he drops certain clues. What's he like? And then I thought that he played the reverse of it. Instead of gibbering in the cornet, he's standing in the middle of the cell. And Jonathan Demiel said, where would you want to be discovered from her point of view? I said, standing. OK, why? I said, I can smell her. Jonathan said, you're weird. So he did it. And that's what it is. You go the opposite way. You draw back. Like Iago, another evil villain. You draw back, you go back into the shade, go back, and don't force any performance. But just keep it very calm. The more still you are, and deadly, and don't take your eyes off the person, that's terrifying.

16:44It is. You're not a real FBI, are you? All the way to the FBI. That's scary. It is. And that line that everybody remembers, I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti, and then you do that thing, which is so terrifying. Where did that come from? That happened at that moment. Really? Yeah, I just added it for a joke. When I was a kid, I saw Dracula, Jonathan Harkin, and Bela Lugosi, and he's shaving, and he nicks himself, and Bela Lugosi, and that scared people. I mean, to play Iago, I mean, Iago, the most evil villain written by Shakespeare, and make a net that shall ensnare them all.

17:25And you realise that there's a diabolical monster inside. And we all have that. Do we all have the monster? Well, we do because we have to survive. Unless we control it, unless we find ways of, you know, finding ways around it, every day we can come up with, you know, punishing ideas and quarrelsomeness, as I did. But you have to stop it. You have to say, OK, this is enough. I can't do this. People don't deserve this from me. And try to be understanding. Sometimes you have to be tough, but control it. Try and make people relaxed, feel safe. I just don't find the whole process of living is like that.

18:11And that role in Silence of the Lambs, obviously it won you an Oscar, it brought great fame. What's your attitude to fame? How have you dealt with that side of your industry? To fame? And celebrity, and the way, I mean that's shifted a lot over time, but it's... Well, when you're younger, when it happens, I think you have to make a quick decision at some level in your thinking to respond as a human being, to enjoy it, to feel privileged, to feel lucky, but then to not take any of it seriously. So I've reached this stage of my life now, especially the last 15 years, I think, to not take it seriously.

18:54We're all going to die in the end. And just enjoy the fundamental day-to-day things of life. No, not to take it seriously. I mean, people will ask me for selfies and all that. Yeah, as long as people enjoy it, I've no problem with it. But I know I'm most vulnerable and as fragile as everyone else. It's not special. And, I mean, your industry has changed so much over the time you've been working in cinema. And now, you know, AI, you know, actually you played a character, didn't you, in Westworld, the architect of a world where artificial beings begin to outgrow their makers. I mean, now we're in a situation where actors are being scanned as part of their contract.

19:36It's evolving so fast. Is that happening? Yes, I mean, that's starting. You know, it will be possible in not very long that Anthony Hopkins, a scan of you that looks real, could carry on acting new roles after you've gone. I'm glad I won't be here. Would you say yes to that or would you say no? I'd be far gone by then. I mean, it's ridiculous, but I have no idea. one thing I'm blessed with and part of my ignorance is this whole newfangled stuff I don't know anything about it I really don't take any notice of it because why worry yourself about it things are changing all the time the movie industry has gone through a great change but something will replace it I guess the pandemic and everything else it's very difficult for people to raise money so now you put it on Netflix So to me, it's such a complex world, I can't even begin to comprehend or not even that interested in understanding that.

20:36I don't get it at all. I don't know how producers can get together and pull the money together to make a movie. It's very difficult for people now, and I'm just fortunate. And writing the book, you've obviously had to look back at your life, assessing your life, your career. What lessons do you take from it? What have you learnt about yourself, about the world? Enjoy it now before it's too late. Just enjoy it as much as you can. You know, don't be a victim. Stop whining. I think I come to my father. Stand up straight. Stop complaining. You don't know anything. That's what I try to do, but I can't lecture anyone on anything.

21:13But I would say in secret, just stop whining about it all. Just get on with it. Life is tough. When we spoke before, we met in 2023, when we were talking about your portrayal of Nicholas Winton, who saved so many children from the Nazis. And you told me, like Nicholas Winton says, the only way is compromise. Give thought and heed to the other person's point of view instead of the culture we now live in. No, you're wrong, I'm right. It's appalling. I mean, do you feel that that is where we're going, that we are increasingly two years on from our conversation more polarised than we are going to be?

21:46Yes, we are. We are. So much hatred and, well, I mean, it's... We're living in a... The world has always been a place of utter turmoil. I watched a film the other night. I mentioned it it's a German film the unfinished film I think it's called it's a documentary of German cameramen in the Warsaw Ghetto at Interblinker concentration camp within a few weeks of people in the Warsaw Ghetto people dying on the street people walking past and you look at it thinking what on earth is the matter with us can't we live together why do you persecute another race or another nation. Why? When we have so much chance.

22:31And I'm not taking nationalism because we're all responsible for that. But I think if we go on in this way of hatred, nobody's allowed to say anything, nobody's allowed to have an opinion, we are dead. That's fascism. And you want to say, come on, stop beating each other up of ideas. They're only ideas. And we're all going to be dead one day. You know, the greatest dictator, the man in 1933, talked about the thousand-year Reich, ended up blowing his brains out in the bunker and the ruins of Berlin, his own country. For what? For an idea. You're wrong and I'm right. We are the master race. And it can be applied to all of us.

23:13And power does corrupt. Absolutely corrupt. And just as we come to the end, are you happy now? Because for so many years you weren't happy. and it feels really, you know, you've had obviously this terrible thing happen, your house has burnt down here in LA, lots of awful things and yet you seem at ease, you seem happy. Yeah, I am. Because, I mean, most of my friends are dead, they've gone. God bless them, but they've gone. I think only most of my next of us, so I hope to be around a little longer. But even that, I'm thinking, yeah, well, I had a good time. I had a laugh. well at last for all the sins for all the ups and downs life is in session and if it were just peaceful well fine I know people are very happy just like my father was he said of his father he was very happy just being what he was you know just the dailiness of life and that moves me my father dreamed of owning a pub at one point he was a baker And eventually he bought a pub which he owned.

24:24Or was a landlord. And I remember sitting there on a Sunday morning many years ago. He's looking out the window on a wet Sunday afternoon, the cars going by. He said, well, I got the pub I wanted, and this is it? I said, yeah. He said, life, what on earth is it all about? And he said, recite that bit of Shakespeare for me. and I remember the emptiness in this life. But that's life.

24:57Thank you for listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in-depth conversations on The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with novelist Salman Rushdie, global megastar Lady Gaga and tennis icon Martina Navratilova. Until the next time, bye for now.

25:46chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts. With the European Athletics Championships, the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place, 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport. And the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action, bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists.

26:26More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.