Sonam Wangchuk, Indian activist: Hunger strike for education reform

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1:35Hello, I'm Rajini Vaidyanarvan and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. I want to get freedom. I like their freedom. A gender equal world would be a better world. for men too. We need this is fire. We need healing. We need trust. These companies don't really, they don't care what governments do. This is a war. The first thing that we want is the war to end. For this episode, I speak to Indian educator and activist Sonam Wongchuk. As youth-led demonstrations spread across India in July, Mr.

2:18Wongchuk became one of the so-called Cockroach Movement's heroes. The movement took its name from a remark by India's Chief Justice, who drew criticism after he compared sections of unemployed young people to cockroaches during a court hearing earlier in the year. Well, Surnam Wangchuk is decades older than many of the thousands of Gen Z protesters who took to the streets. At 59, he went on hunger strike for 26 days in solidarity with students calling for reforms to India's education system. His action helped raise awareness of the cause. And protests which began over anger that exam papers were leaked grew into one of the biggest public displays of dissent against Prime Minister Narendra Modi's BJP government, in the end leading to the resignation of the education minister in what was a major climb down for the government.

3:12Sonam Wangchuk ended his hunger strike after he said he received guarantees from the government that there would be lasting change. Now his hunger strikes ended, what effect does he think it had? You know, when I was sitting on hunger strike, all thinkers, leaders of different shades would come and tell me that it worked with Gandhi and the British, but it cannot work with the government now. They're very tough. They don't care about people like you dying. But then I learned that it's not actually that. It doesn't work on the rulers. It works on the people. The way we inflict pain through hunger for, you know, four weeks, it moves the people, the public, and the public is what the rulers are interested in.

4:04So quite in an indirect, rebound way, it affects the rulers and they finally give in, is what we learned. Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Sonam Wongchuk. Oh, I feel generally happy that there was accountability on the part of the government, which was very much lacking in the era before this event. and there's more sensitivity, there's more confidence among the people, especially the youth, that they can change things if they want to, that they don't have to live heads down, taking everything, you know, lying down. So there's a lot of what I call free air-free India. So that's happening bit by bit.

4:57You sound very optimistic there. You stopped your fasting protest based on a number of conditions that you said you had assurances from the government on. One of them, for example, was that any cases registered against peaceful student protesters would be dropped. We're hearing that that isn't necessarily the case. What is your assessment about how much the government's actually stuck to the demands that you made? so the main demand main demand was accountability in the education particularly in the examination paper leaks now that was the main demand of the whole movement of the students the Cockroach Janta Party and mine during the fast I was taken away into hospitals which were more like prisons a lot of restrictions now seeing that the the interlocutors from the government who were negotiating with me, seeing that they were taking time on the resignation of the education minister.

6:08And that issue was damaging them seriously. And I could sense that they will do it in a day or two anyway. So I was more stressing on, yes, legal action and harassment after the movement. Almost all cases are being taken away. And the Supreme Court has made the states decide if they want to withdraw the cases, they can. What we saw, though, really, for the first time, I think, was a prominent government minister resigning in the wake of protests. Did you ever expect that to happen? And how did you feel when you got that news? I, you know, in all my senses thought that was the most sensible thing for the government to do.

6:58In fact, they must be regretting that they didn't do it early enough. They could have saved themselves from so much damage, so much damage and anger and hatred among especially younger generation if they had done it long back. So I always thought that logic says, you know, sensibilities say that they should do. I don't know. They took so long and maybe it was good for the country because this is how the young people united and they gained confidence in their unity, in their actions. So in a way, it was good that destiny set it like this. But if I was in their place, I would have done this long, long ago, which they finally had to do with much damage to themselves and a sense of victory among the young people and rest of the nation who were feeling suffocated with, you know, fear everywhere.

7:54It was a very fear-based way of governance and a lot of unjust things happening like in these examinations or elections. So I think it helped people to raise their voice. In a way, I would say good that they didn't do it early because this led to what we have seen. And there's a widespread feeling among people that we have to take things in our own hands. How much do you think this has weakened Prime Minister Modi's position? Oh, terribly, terribly. I mean, people can't even imagine what's happening now. Every part of the country, people are raising voice, not just Generation Gen Z, but Gen Alpha.

8:48School boys and girls are raising their school issues and getting them resolved remote places to different states. People are rising up to remove these injustices in the employment systems, examination systems, more in the education arena now, but actually cuts across various fields. And you may have heard yesterday in Bihar, the ruling party lost two of the three seats that had by-elections. So the entire atmosphere in the country has switched. And Prime Minister Modi's always presented himself as India's strongman, hasn't he? He would possibly take issue with the fact that this has weakened his government.

9:40He still has a lot of support. Why do you think this particular wave of protests is different? There was a sense of fear earlier. You know, it was mostly dealing with grownups, middle aged people who had too much to lose. And this movement, because it was by young people who had hardly anything to lose, Gen Z, or people like me who had already faced all that one could face at the hands of the government, jail and raids by government agencies, everything. So we had nothing to lose. We had no fear. And that's what spread across the country. And today people are raising voice. And maybe they feel, and rightly so, that they don't have that control.

10:29But I always thought the best way to have, you know, control or power is through love and in return love from the people by ensuring a just and fear free governance. Hopefully they'll mend their ways. This time it stopped at education ministry. But if this continues, I think the younger generation and the people may not stop at just education. So what comes next now? You've been a longtime campaigner for changes in the education system in India. Youth unemployment remains at a high. It's the largest population in the world. What would you suggest comes next now in terms of education reforms in India?

11:20It's a very misplaced system of education where the examinations have no relevance to what happens in the jobs, in real life or even in innovative cognitive development of the children. They're just set of multiple questions, multiple choice questions that are all about ease of testing millions of students without really seeing whether they're effective. And based on these questions, the school system adapts itself. It's like the tail wagging the dog. So if the examination systems were more thorough, more well thought of, which requires not just memorized answers, but really something hands on experience or aptitude, say, in these engineering entrance examinations, then based on these exams, schools will have to adapt their way of teaching.

12:22And that will then bring changes in the job scenario. Well, I mean, I was about to ask you about that because India is in a jobs crisis. It's really hard for young, educated Indians to get good jobs. Yes, yes, yes. There's planning, long term planning missing. You know, we perhaps are producing what we may not need in 15 years and we are not producing what we really need. So there needs to be some planning of what the world and the country is like to look in 15 years and adapt the primary schooling, middle schooling to that, to have the right kind of people so that they are not left unemployed.

13:06And then sectors that need people are not left underemployed.

13:14You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service with me, Rajini Vaidyanathan.

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14:26I spoke to Sonam Wongchuk on a video call. He joined me from his home in the North Indian Territory of Ladakh. He seemed relaxed and looked healthy considering he'd just been on a hunger strike and has gained some of the weight he lost during his fast. Mr Wongchuk is well known to many in India. He's a seasoned activist who's gone on hunger strike before in support of other causes. But his recent action raised his global profile and put him at the heart of these latest protests. And he was speaking to me in one of his first interviews since all of that unfolded. What struck me the most was just how energised and optimistic he sounded.

15:10He really believes that this latest movement can change India in a profound way. So let's return to my conversation with Sonam Wongchuk. How much do you think your hunger strike helped galvanise that movement? Do you think without you going on that hunger strike, things would have been the way they were? What I give credit to is this amazing path that was shown by Mahatma Gandhi during independence movement. It was an experiment for me to see if it is still relevant. It was my 26th fast, we call it, fast or hunger strike, since 2023. This way of inflicting pain on ourselves makes the government feel differently compared to us using, you know, stones and sticks and violent ways.

16:05They have many answers to any violent ways that people may use, but they have no answer to peaceful, self-inflicting ways. This time when I went to support the youth in a nationwide topic, I wasn't sure that these paths were still relevant 100 years after Mahatma Gandhi. And I'm happy to see that it actually is. You know, when I was sitting on hunger strike, all thinkers, leaders of different shades would come and tell me that it worked with Gandhi and the British, but it cannot work with the government now. They're very tough. They don't care about people like you dying. But then I learned that it's not actually that.

17:00It doesn't work on the rulers. It works on the people. The way we inflict pain through hunger for, you know, four weeks, it moves the people, the public, and the public is what the rulers are interested in. So quite in an indirect rebound way, it affects the rulers and they finally give in is what we learned. So very interestingly for you also, what Gandhi used in independence movement, is still relevant. Maybe this was the first time it was used in those ways. And still... What would you say to critics who would perhaps label the use of a hunger strike as a tactic as more of a political stunt or something to grab headlines?

17:51What would you say to people who criticise the... Deadlines are a byproduct. It is actually to touch and move the hearts and souls of the people to see that some people are ready to go through all this. And it concerns all of you, you know, 20 plus young people committed suicide because of these paper leaks for medical entrances. and that's not something you can ignore like that. It can be your children next year. This is how we made them feel that it is almost from your home and that moved them and then they came to support and that moved the rulers. Would you go on a hunger strike again? I mean, you've done a number of them, but would you go on hunger strike again, particularly when it comes to the latest cause around education?

18:50I resort to this as a last resort. I would rather negotiate through dialogue, discussions and various other ways. When nothing works, then you put yourself through all the pain of staying hungry for 26 days. This is neither easy for me nor the best way. and therefore I think it should be used sparingly as a last resort. How difficult is it? I mean, at what point in those 26 days did you think, I just can't do it? Oh no, that way it is not difficult. Once you remove the craving, yearning for food and such things from your mind, your mind becomes free. You forget hunger. What is more challenging is the science behind it.

19:44So for the first one or two weeks, your fat is burnt and that only can do you good. But by the second and third week, your muscles are being eaten up by your body. So I was losing muscles, body weight, roughly half a kg every day. And together with muscles, then the risk rises of the body eating up the organs. And that's when you can suffer irreversible damage. So those are the risks. But then you have to put yourself through that so that others can see that it's not something where I say others will do. I don't have to go. That's the casual attitude at the beginning. But when they see someone going through all this, their conscience doesn't let them be passive.

20:37I mean, in the end, it was the government that forcibly removed you from the protest site because of concerns over your health. That's why you ended up going to hospital. Yes, they took me to the hospital and they wanted to force feed or force inject me. But I used the provisions in the Constitution to say that I am in my senses and I won't eat or let you force feed me. So in the hospital, I continued my fast from the 20th to 26th day. So that they couldn't do. They did everything to curtail my freedom, communication with the people in the nation and the world, but they couldn't and didn't force feed me.

21:24So I was on hunger strike in the hospital also. You've managed to really capture the hearts of so many young people who took to the streets in those protests, even though you're not a Gen Z-er. and I guess the question is you've got a lot of support haven't you across different quarters of India you've been an activist for a long time but your profiles changed dramatically in recent weeks would you ever consider a run for office yourself given the momentum behind you okay so first question I call myself not a cockroach but an honorary cockroach yeah who is one, but not quite in Gen Z terms. Other than that, yes, it was very good to know that people could relate and awaken their conscience and did support.

22:21What I would like to put it to use is to make young people take responsibilities and change the nation and change the world through good leadership, honest leadership, caring, sensitive leadership. So you wouldn't run for office yourself then? No, not in normal circumstances. I would rather like to make, facilitate others to do it. So what's next for you then?

22:54I have always been working in the field of education and innovation. Innovation for Himalayan and mountain ecosystems that are very sensitive and so on. And educational to bring this amazing asset we have called education, where every citizen is captively listening for some 15 years, should be put to use to face the challenges that the planet is facing in how we are seeing effects of climate change and political challenges everywhere. So I would like to bring sense to education to make it worth the 15, 20 years we all spend in it and to bring out good leadership from among them. That's what I'll continue to do If there are big issues nationally, I would continue to support them like I did this.

23:54But generally, through education and environment, I would like to influence the nation and the world. And what toll has this taken on your family in particular? The strike, the fast. each time i embark on a movement like this whether it is a fast or a march they're very skeptical they discourage try to discourage me mainly out of concern for my personal health and so on but when i see it is needed and i am the right person to do because you know somebody who people know and may be touched by has to do it. If somebody is not known, it may not have the same influence. So I am tempted every time that others may not be as effective.

24:50So I'll have to put myself on the line. And they feel very worried. But once I'm decided and I'm there, they're very, very, very supportive. So that way, I'm very grateful to my wife, to my brothers, sisters, who have all been very supportive once the decision is made.

25:16Thank you for listening to the interview. You can find more in-depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including conversations with Google CEO Sundar Pichai, as well as interviews with former Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard and many others. Until the next time, bye for now.

25:44Hello, Greg Jenner here. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the BBC comedy show that takes history seriously. Every episode I pair up a top historian with a fantastic comedian and we have a lovely, funny, fascinating chat about a different subject from world history. And in this new series, we're beginning with an epic voyage through the story of Homer, the Iliad and the Odyssey. And that's with Kyle Smith-Bino joining us. And then we'll be learning about Francis Galton and the racist, discredited pseudoscience of eugenics with Desiree Birch. We'll meet many medieval saints in their bone boxes with Rachel Parris.

26:18So if that sounds like your sort of thing, listen to You're Dead to Me wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. Bye.