Srinivasan Muralidhar: The trauma of Palestinian children

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1:15Jugal Purohit:BBC World Service This episode of The Interview contains discussion of the killing of children and other consequences of conflict. I'm Jugal Purohit and this is The Interview, the best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world.

1:35Srinivasan Muralidhar:I want to get freedom. I like their freedom.

1:38Jugal Purohit:A gender equal world would be a better world for men too. We need this is fire. We need healing. We need trust. These companies don't really, they don't care what governments do. This is a war. The first thing that we want is the war to end. For this interview, I met Justice Srinivasan Muralidhar in his office in Delhi. A jurist for over four decades in India, in November 2025, he was appointed to lead an independent international commission of inquiry on the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem and Israel. The UN-commissioned inquiry published its 94-page report in June. It examined alleged Israeli violations against Palestinian children from the beginning of Israel's war on Gaza in October 2023 to October 2025.

2:27Jugal Purohit:Israel did not cooperate or provide information to the commission. It rejected the report and disputed its conclusions after publication, calling it a libelous sham. The report found that Israel had deliberately targeted Palestinian children, resulting in genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes in the Gaza Strip, as well as war crimes in the occupied West Bank. Srinivasan Muralidhar tells me how the Commission went about documenting and verifying the evidence, the challenges involved in establishing the facts, and the key conclusions reached in the report.

3:04Srinivasan Muralidhar:The response we got, whether it was from the European Union or the Organization of Islamic Countries or even the Security Council members, and many of them were moved and they asked us, what do you think can be done? So many of them are feeling a bit helpless because of the geopolitical situation. They say there are political compulsions. My response was then and now that when it comes to humanitarian crisis, we should not allow children's future to be subject to geopolitics. We can't have the present generation of children turn back and say the United Nations was silent and did nothing when children in Gaza were suffering.

3:47Jugal Purohit:The interview from the BBC World Service with Justice Srinivasan Muralidhar. This interview includes descriptions of the killing of children.

3:56Srinivasan Muralidhar:In conflict situations, the occupying power has obligations. It has to ensure that the most vulnerable in the population do not become targets, particularly children. Childhood's Convention, of course, lists out a large number of obligations. So if you are going to occupy a place, you take on the obligations of the state, which would otherwise be obliged to ensure effective enforcement of these rights for children.

4:20Jugal Purohit:Let's start with the issue of this report. Now, I want to start by understanding that, you know, Israel has actually accused this report and has accused your body of not being present on the ground, producing a report like this. They've said that you based your work, and I quote, information supplied many times by terrorists themselves, many of them disguising as medical and press staff. I want to understand in what form was the verification done and whether or not you actually were able to go on the ground.

4:50Srinivasan Muralidhar:If we were unable to go on the ground, it is because Israel has consistently refused its permission to go on the ground. As chair of the commission, I write what is called a note verbal and we send it to the Israeli authorities asking for permission to meet with them first, asking for permission to enter the territory, meet the people there first. So we write this request every time and every time there is silence from the Israeli authorities. We send an advance copy. Before we finalize our report, we send it in a draft form both to the Israeli authorities as well as the Palestinian authorities for their comments.

5:26Srinivasan Muralidhar:In fact, the Palestinian Authority has given us its comments. We've incorporated some of those comments in our report. Israeli authorities never respond. I must assure all of you that this is truly an independent international commission. So I would strongly refute whatever allegation Israel is making against the work of this government. We have thousands of sources of information, some of them open source, but there are victims and witnesses who've managed to come out of Gaza and they're able to give us first-hand accounts. So those depositions form a basis for our report. But apart from that, we've talked to journalists, academics, treating doctors, lawyers who represented victims, a wide range of sources.

6:09Srinivasan Muralidhar:Then we also have videos put up by Israeli soldiers themselves. So in response to this report, when Israel prepared an 18-page rebuttal, they did not deny the authenticity of any of those videos containing incriminating evidence about the crimes committed by the soldiers themselves. In fact, when we record children's testimonies, we follow all the do no harm protocols, the best interests of the child. We keep the identity of the child concealed for a very particular reason. We do not want any surviving family member of the child or the child himself or herself to be harmed further. We do not want them to become further targets for having spoken to the commission.

6:49Srinivasan Muralidhar:So when I joined the commission November 2025, I was given a very detailed explanation of how they go about gathering evidence. most importantly verifying the authenticity of evidence. Much of digital evidence you know is vulnerable to being morphed or you know tampered with. So they have to take extra precautions. They use the most advanced techniques for this. So there is no single source of evidence that we rely upon. Even if the victim has managed to speak to us or the victim's parent or relative has spoken to us we just don't rely on that piece of evidence. We cross check, cross verify. Fortunately for us, we have advanced technological developments which enable us to do this.

7:30Jugal Purohit:Can one surmise from this that what you have done is more in the nature of a chart sheet following an investigation rather than a judgment on an issue?

7:39Srinivasan Muralidhar:Perfectly put. So some adjudicatory body, like for instance, the ICJ has used our evidence. The International Criminal Court, the ICC has used our evidence. There how the process works is ICJ, South Africa, institutes proceedings against Israel. South Africa makes a request for us to share our evidence. That request is then acted upon and we share our evidence. So we align our evidence gathering and analysis protocols with that of the International Court of Justice and the International Criminal Court. Our team, which is of 12 persons, all the forensic experts, the military analysis experts which constitute our team, They visited the ICJ to understand those protocols.

8:19Jugal Purohit:What I want to ask you before we actually get into the aspects of the report itself is that you've been a former Chief Justice of, you know, an Indian High Court. And I want you to give me an honest assessment of the limitations that you faced as a member of this commission because of the reasons we just discussed, including the lack of access to the ground itself where, you know, the report is based. In all fairness, like, what would you say are some of the qualifiers that you would provide to someone who is reading this report?

8:49Srinivasan Muralidhar:No, only qualifiers is this. We did not physically visit those territories. And we've been requesting that the Israeli government, you see, the Israeli government controls access to these territories. You can't just land up in Amman and hope to cross into West Bank. The Israeli authorities will stop you. You can't land up in Tel Aviv and expect to go through the barrier.

9:07Jugal Purohit:So you would have wanted to go, but you were not allowed to go. We repeatedly wanted to go.

9:11Srinivasan Muralidhar:right from day one, in fact, all the UN mandate holders, not just us, today, if the special rapporteur wants to go to Israel, the special rapporteur can't. In fact, Israel goes... You mean to Gaza? To occupied Palestinian territory, whether it's Gaza, whether it's West Bank, whether it's East Jerusalem, or whether it's Israel itself. The minute they know there is an independent unisticating body that is coming in, they want to stall it.

9:33Jugal Purohit:Alright. Your data says, and I quote, that between the 7th of October, 2023 and 7th of October, 2025, at least 20 ,179 children were killed and 44 ,143 children were injured as a direct result of the hostilities in Gaza. I was just running some arithmetic and this comes out to be about 27, 28 children being killed each day and over 60 being injured every day. Now, you also add in your report that about 5 ,160 children are estimated to be buried under the rubble. These are mind-boggling numbers.

10:13Srinivasan Muralidhar:And these are underestimates, honestly, because the bombing happens on a daily basis. And you must understand that these strikes are aimed. They're aimed at moving targets. They're aimed at children. They're aimed at ambulances. They're aimed at medical workers. I mean, we are in an extraordinary situation. This is not ordinary hostilities. See, the whole basis of the Geneva Convention is completely undermined. You pick up hospitals, schools, ambulances as legitimate targets. We've noticed an instance of a child holding a white flag and being shot in cold blood while holding that white flag. So this is not something we can accept as legitimate hostilities or moment of war.

10:55Srinivasan Muralidhar:Because the whole Geneva Convention itself is to regulate conduct during the time of hostilities. And when we talk of children being killed and injured, these are underestimates. because we have every reason to believe, not just under the rubble. You know, children are dying of starvation. Those figures are not forming part of these figures. Children are dying of malnutrition. Children are dying of want of medical help. Today, there are three areas which constitute the occupied Palestinian territory, which is Gaza Strip, then we have West Bank, we have East Jerusalem. Israel will not permit a child in need of urgent medical attention to go from Gaza to West Bank, where the medical facilities are definitely better.

11:34Srinivasan Muralidhar:It will not permit that passage. What it is doing is at very short notice, giving them notice to evacuate within Gaza Strip. So much of the Palestinian surviving population is all amassed at the southern tip of the Gaza Strip at a place called Raffa near the Egypt border. There is not a single building standing in Raffa. Every building has been demolished. So you are forced to go into displacement camps. So the number of children awaiting medical evacuation at the Raffa crossing is huge. and Israel is permitting at its whims and fancies one, sometimes two, sometimes ten to cross for medical treatment.

12:11Srinivasan Muralidhar:So we have instances of children dying at that border for want of medical treatment. So the figures that you quote are actually underestimates.

12:19Jugal Purohit:I also want to say that Israel's position has been that there has been no starvation, death, that it has allowed access of humanitarian aid.

12:27Srinivasan Muralidhar:In fact, I keep repeating in every press conference, we said it even in the UN, And I'm saying it here, if Israel has any evidence to contradict any of our findings, ask Israel to place it before us. We will examine it just as we have examined every other piece of evidence. Let Israel share the evidence in the public domain with the entire world. Let us look at it.

12:51Jugal Purohit:You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. This was the first time I had met Justice Srinivasan Muralidar in person. although I had heard him speak at different public events. I had also heard of him as a well-respected and a senior member of India's judicial system. Moments into our interview, it was clear that the investigation and its findings had left a deep imprint on him. Our conversation was not an easy one and at times he was frustrated with our line of questioning though I must say he patiently answered everything we asked. Okay, let's return to my conversation with Justice Srinivasan Muralithar.

13:32Jugal Purohit:This interview includes descriptions of the killing of children.

13:58Jugal Purohit:which we have noted in our report.

13:59Srinivasan Muralidhar:You will find in two or three places. Did you reach out to them? We note the fact that Israeli authorities claim to be investigating, but they have not shared their findings or the outcome of their investigation with anyone, much less with us. They don't engage with us at all.

14:12Jugal Purohit:Just on the issue of the numbers, which we were discussing just a short while back, you are aware that there is a criticism that a lot of these numbers come from a Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza. No, it's not true. Can you tell our viewers whether you verified these numbers and how?

14:29Srinivasan Muralidhar:See, there are doctors who speak to us and they tell us about what they've seen in the displacement camps. They've said that the size of the bodies of the children in these two years has shrunk dramatically. And then there are photographs, there are videos. There are multiple sources by which you can confirm that children are suffering severe malnutrition. But the numbers? The numbers that we spoke of. Numbers are put out definitely by the authorities there. but permit us to go there. You see, you can't tie our hands and saying that we will not allow you to go there. We will not give you our figures.

15:04Srinivasan Muralidhar:We will not let you confirm whether what we are saying is right or they are saying is right. It's easy to make an accusation, right? If they've placed figures before us and then they say, compare these figures that we have given you to the figures that they have made available on the public domain, I can understand. But you don't engage with the commission. They don't want to recognize the legitimacy of the commission. And we are not pronouncing guilt. Let me explain to you. You've said that. We are an investigating body. We look at material that's placed before us, material that is gathered. We look at the independence of these sources.

15:36Srinivasan Muralidhar:We look at the corroborating material. We don't come to a conclusion till we have corroboration by more than one source. Israel in its 18-page rebuttal has not disputed any of this.

15:49Jugal Purohit:There is officially a ceasefire in place in Gaza, right? But your report mentions, and I quote, increasing incidence of targeting and killing of Palestinians, including children near the yellow line, end of quote. Now, this yellow line, for those who don't know, is a post-ceasefire line of control articulated by Israel. Why is this taking place according to your investigation?

16:12Srinivasan Muralidhar:First of all, this yellow line is not really defined. Israel is arbitrarily and unilaterally defined as so-called yellow line. Children being children don't know where the yellow line falls. and children go out to play. Children just want to be outside an area where there are no constant drones around them, bombing happening around them. Young children who just stray near the yellow line, the so-called yellow line, are just shot, shot in cold blood. We've had long experience. I've had a long experience as, first of all, a lawyer of human rights work. I've had long experience as a judge. This kind of an evidence is shocking.

16:47Srinivasan Muralidhar:I'm surprised that there should be questions saying, you know, how is it all one-sided? how is it all without accounting for what Israel has to say. Show me sir in the 18 page rebuttal, has Israel

16:58Jugal Purohit:denied any of this evidence? Fair point, I take your point.

17:01Srinivasan Muralidhar:There is a very very hard evidence sir, to show there is a very systematic targeting of Palestinian children. It is done because children form the biological and social continuity of the Palestinian group by targeting children who are the most vulnerable, Israel is ensuring that the Palestinian group as a group does not continue. Otherwise how would you explain children with headshot,