SungAh Lee, International Organisation for Migration: Sudan needs us

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1:35SungAh Lee:Hello, I'm Wahiga Mwawra, presenter of Focus on Africa. And this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world.

1:53Waihiga Mwaura:If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention. We have never seen a people so united. Do not make that boat crossing. Do not make that journey. Being born in America, feeling American, having people treat me like I'm not.

2:08SungAh Lee:We're more popular than populism. For this interview, I speak to Sung Ah Lee from the International Organization for Migration, where she is Deputy Director General for Management and Reform. She recently travelled to Sudan where the war has entered its fourth year. As the civil war in Sudan enters its fourth year, donors are meeting in Berlin to discuss ways to mobilise aid and revive peace talks. Sudan is burning. Three years of a shattering war has left one of Africa's ancient nations on the brink of collapse. Tens of thousands are killed and millions are forced out of their homes. Sudan's civil war erupted in 2023 between the army and a paramilitary group that rapid support forces, with its roots in the notorious Janjaweed militia.

3:03SungAh Lee:The conflict has seen humans suffering on a huge scale, with 65 % of the population in need of food, water, shelter and medicine. More than 150 ,000 people have died in the conflict across the country, and about 12 million people have fled their homes, leading to what is considered the world's worst humanitarian crisis. Soong Ali describes what she saw on the ground and how it felt to return to the war-torn country she had spent time in as a child.

3:36Waihiga Mwaura:So it is a really severe crisis that I'm seeing here in Sudan. in Khartoum it was actually a very emotional roller coaster for me so I had the opportunity to visit the home time that I grew up and first I was really excited the fact that after almost 40 years that I could visit that place but then I saw the damage the loss the buildings being destroyed, the infrastructure being completely damaged in that area. And it was heartbreaking.

4:17SungAh Lee:You'll also hear Sung Ali explain how current conflicts are changing migration patterns and the impact the International Organization for Migration believes cuts to government aid budgets are having on people affected by war.

4:32Waihiga Mwaura:So when humanitarian development aid funding is reduced, people are left with fewer options. And when I look at what is happening to the returnees, when I look at what is happening to the displaced population, if they don't find stability, if they don't find livelihoods, if they don't find a way to survive in where they are, the movements are going to be more dangerous and the movements are going to continue. Sometimes we need to understand the A-Cup now might lead to more costly intervention in the future.

5:17SungAh Lee:Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Sung Ali from the International Organization for Migration. in a conversation I recorded last week. I know you've been in various parts of Sudan over the last couple of days. What have been your observations and your biggest concerns whilst on ground?

5:40Waihiga Mwaura:So I'm seeing one of the worst humanitarian crises and the biggest displacement. I've been to Port Sudan. I've been to Khartoum. I've been to Al Jazeera, Ghedderab, and now I'm in Qasala. And there is about 34 million people who's needing humanitarian aid. If you actually think about it, that's half of the UK population. So it's massive. If we think about displacement, at peak, it was 12 million. Now it's about 9 million based on our data. Again, if we think about a comparison, that's a whole population of London being displaced. So it is a really severe crisis that I'm seeing here in Sudan. In Khartoum, it was actually a very emotional roller coaster for me.

6:42Waihiga Mwaura:So I had the opportunity to visit the hometown that I grew up. So I spent part of my childhood in Khartoum, and I had the opportunity to visit back the area that I lived in, and even the apartment building that I grew up. And first, I was really excited at the fact that after almost 40 years, I think it's 37 years, that I could visit that place. But then I saw the damage, the loss, the buildings being destroyed, the infrastructure being completely damaged in that area. And it was quite saddened and heartbreaking. So that's what I saw in Khartoum. I also went to visit a mobile clinic. The health system is close to being collapsed.

7:43Waihiga Mwaura:And I think there's about 21 million not having access to basic health services. in Gedaref and Kassala. These are the states that have been hosting displaced population. So already with the climate impact, the impact of the war, the infrastructure is really stretched. And because they're also hosting a big number of displaced population, there's really a need for basic health system, education, water and sanitation. I've seen people not having access to clean water. Also, there's a need for shelter, food. So it's really a very severe situation.

8:34SungAh Lee:You met government officials. Obviously, these are government officials allied to the military in Khartoum who are working on different sectors, water, health care, education. What resources do they have at hand to begin to rebuild? And what pressing challenges do they have at this time in those three sectors, water, healthcare and education?

8:58Waihiga Mwaura:So as I mentioned, the healthcare system is facing severe challenges. We are working together with the government, but there is still a lot of support needed, like the mobile clinics that I mentioned that IOM and other UN agencies are operating because there's still 21 million people who don't have access to basic health services. Water I have seen in Al Jazeera and also in JRF, there is a lack of clean water. And also these are agricultural sectors where the irrigation systems are damaged. So there is a need for water infrastructure as well. Education system has been struggling. And we have seen in places like Kisala, because there was a lot of displaced population also being placed in schools, the school system has been damaged and also having difficulties as well.

10:04Waihiga Mwaura:So we are working together with the government. Government, especially in the state level, are very much focusing on recovery and providing these services. But it is obvious that they need a lot of support from the international community as well.

10:23SungAh Lee:Did you meet any of the leaders of the warring factions whilst on your tour?

10:29Waihiga Mwaura:So, IOM is really focusing on providing immediate humanitarian aid. and also making sure that we work together to lay down the foundational work for all the returnees coming back to their original home state. We have so far seen 4 million people returning, and we anticipate just in Khartoum there will be additional 2 million returning to Khartoum. But it would be very difficult for the returnees when they come back to rebuild their home because the reality they're coming back is quite stark. So I think it is important we make sure that the return can become a pathway for recovery and development and not another struggle for survival.

11:27SungAh Lee:What do you think and what sense do you get about what the conditions are elsewhere? because these are areas where you have access to and relief agencies have access to. But we know that fighting is still ongoing in some parts of Darfur, in Kordofan states as well. And what are you hearing about the conditions there?

11:44Waihiga Mwaura:Yes, we are getting some reports. However, those places, the humanitarian access is being challenged due to the ongoing conflict and attacks and also some of these bureaucratic impediments in making sure that we can get all the travel documents cleared. So it is a challenging situation to access. But the report that we are getting, it is a very severe humanitarian crisis in those places as well.

12:19SungAh Lee:Well, we know that several countries recently gathered in Berlin, a conference on Sudan, and pledges were made to the tune of, I think it's$1.3 billion, if that's what I last heard. But we've also had certain players say that it's one thing to make pledges, it's another to deliver them. What sort of shortfalls have you seen in the delivery of pledges to Sudan? And what are you doing to try and, you know, surmount those challenges?

12:46Waihiga Mwaura:So, as I mentioned, Sudan is facing severe humanitarian crisis and there is a huge gap in infrastructure, basic services to the population. Also, as I mentioned, the people who are returning, it will be very important for them because I see the resilience of the Sudanese people trying to rebuild, but it will be extremely challenging if there's no basic infrastructure and basic services to provide that opportunity. And therefore, it is important that the states, the commitment they have made is delivered. And I think the international attention and collaboration is really important. It is a pivotal moment for Sudan.

13:40SungAh Lee:I mean, and sorry if I'm pressing on this issue, but I'd like some specifics where possible. How much do you reckon is needed to provide basic support in the areas that you visited? How much has and how much is available at the moment? What's the balance?

13:57Waihiga Mwaura:So for IOM, we have pledged for 170 million for 2026 for the Sudan response. Currently, we have received about 40 percent of that amount. But if we think about also what's happening in the neighboring countries and the returns and cross-border movement, we have pledged for 270 million for Sudan and the neighboring countries as well. So the gap is still big and it is really important that we put attention to this issue.

14:38SungAh Lee:You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service.

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15:50SungAh Lee:With the conflict in Sudan entering its fourth year, I was keen to look at the situation of displaced people. And so when this opportunity to interview Soong Ali was made available, I was grateful, especially because of her personal connection with Sudan, which came across in this interview. She wasn't just talking about a place she visited once or she read statistics about, but this is a place where she grew up and she knew what the country looked like. She knew the people. And now when she came back for this visit, it was a completely different situation. Her knowledge of Sudan surprised me, but also made me glad that there are people who are supporting the humanitarian cause there who are aware of what Sudan used to look like, or at least Khartoum, and hopefully one day this vision will come back to life.

16:41SungAh Lee:Listening to Soong Ali and then hearing from analysts familiar with the warring parties makes one thing very clear. There's a massive gap between what the leaders want and what the people want. Okay, let's return to my conversation with Soong Ali. What considerations did you make as to where you want to visit? This is a country that's been in turmoil for the last three years. I know there's a lot of different areas you could have gone to. Why did you decide on these particular states? Is it a safety issue where you can actually reach? Is it where you feel the biggest needs are? Give us a sense.

17:17Waihiga Mwaura:Absolutely. Yes, there's also a safety issue, but also because Khartoum and Al Jazeera are the two states that we are anticipating the biggest return. Or Khartoum, we have seen already, based on our data, 1.8 million people returning, and we anticipate another 2 million. In Al-Jajira, based on our data, about 80 to 85 percent of the population have already returned. So we need to work together to make sure that these returns can go towards recovery and stability. Qasala and Jedareff are the two states that are hosting a big amount of displaced population. And this is important to make sure that these populations have a way to get a basic humanitarian need and therefore have some stability.

18:14Waihiga Mwaura:We will also see these populations moving back to their home states as well. and IOM is here to support and deliver for those movements and populations in need.

18:28SungAh Lee:I know you've spoken to government officials, you've spoken to citizens in the different places you've visited. What are their reflections on the state of their country and their future? As we get into the fourth year, are they hopeful that a brighter day lies ahead or are they more sort of despondent with the fact that the world has been unable to stop the conflict in Sudan?

18:56Waihiga Mwaura:so many of the government officials i met especially on the state level they knew very well the issues they knew where the gaps were they knew the critical and lack of services and infrastructure so there were they were very much hoping that we can work together with the government so that we put at least the foundation around for the people to rebuild. The people I met, for example, I met with the women groups and one woman told me that she lost her husband and the son at the same time and she came back to her home state. I cannot imagine how devastating that would be a shift-bound support from other women, from peer groups, and they're working together to support each other, to provide a psychosocial support, but also trying to think what kind of income-generating activities that they can do together.

19:59Waihiga Mwaura:I was partnering with these women groups, and I see resilience in them. Okay.

20:06SungAh Lee:I mean, even as we reflect on Sudan, there are conflicts in other parts of the African continent, and I know IOM looks at migration patterns. What can you tell us about migration patterns in late 2025 into 2026? Anything different? Anything stand out with everything we're seeing in the world, conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere for Africa? What are the migration trends like from where you sit?

20:30Waihiga Mwaura:So what we're seeing from these conflicts are, these conflicts are reshaping how, who and where the migrations are happening. If we look at the conflicts at zone like Sudan, Afghanistan, and Horn of Africa, these conflicts not only just increase the number of migration, but it has made the migration route more complex, more fragmented, and more dangerous and lethal. Also, we actually see these movements, usually spurs happening within the country and also in the neighboring countries. And sometimes we see a longer pattern of stranded migrants in this transition. And afterwards, they move forward.

21:28Waihiga Mwaura:We are seeing Liliya, especially the eastern part of Livia, re-emerging as a transit hub. And we also see the changes of nationalities that are arriving in Europe. I think it's important to note that enforcing border and just focusing that doesn't reduce the number of arrivals. What happens is there are new emerging routes coming out, and these routes are more complex, more expensive, more lethal, and dangerous. And therefore, it is important when we look at our partnership and international collaboration to also see how we can support the displaced population within the country and also supporting the transit countries as well.

22:25Waihiga Mwaura:It's important to note that 80 to 85 percent of the migrants in Africa is currently within the region. So supporting the stability of the region will be also an important aspect.