Surviving Syria’s sectarian violence

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

0:07This advertisement feature is paid and presented by Poland's Ministry of Foreign Affairs. When you're thinking about where to scale your business, think Poland. As one of Europe's fastest growing economies with a large talent pool, it's the ideal place for your business to grow.

0:26My name is Toma Renault. I'm the CEO of Iliad Group. Iliad is the number five telecom operator in Europe. When we expanded into Poland in 2020, we knew it would be a successful venture. Since then, we have invested over 4.5 billion euros in the Polish economy and become the country's leading mobile operator with Play. Here, we have access to over a million graduates with skilled professionals across IT, software, tech, engineering, and manufacturing. And on top of that, we benefit from favorable business regulations in order to support telecommunication network deployment, in order to push digitalization in the public sector.

1:12We also have direct access to global markets. I like to think of it as the Silicon Valley of Europe. Poland has a culture of innovation and that drives business forward. Poland embraces technology early. Digitalisation is progressing rapidly in both the public and private sectors. And that's why we are here. To innovate, to invest, to grow together. Global brands and rising scale-ups alike choose Poland as their base for smart, long-term growth. Poland, the place where scale-ups become standouts. Find out more at polandyourplacetogrow.com.

2:02Because PwC understands your business, we provide you with AI solutions that deliver real impact. Tailor AI for your business at pwc.ie. PwC. So you can. Hello, I'm Tim Franks, presenter of NewsHour, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. I will come back to Russia. I will participate in the elections. There's an increase in violence according to the coca crop. There is no place in the world where women are equal. I will give away the vast majority of my money. It's my full-time focus for the rest of my life.

2:50For this interview, I met a British Syrian woman from the minority Alawite community who came under attack along with her family during a spate of sectarian violence on Syria's coast in March. The Alawite sect is an offshoot of Shia Islam and its followers make up about 10 % of Syria's population, which is majority Sunni. The recent violence came after fighters loyal to the country's overthrown former president, Bashar al-Assad, who's an Alawite himself, led deadly raids on the new government security forces. There's deep pain and anger for many in Syria over the decades of choking dictatorship by the Assad dynasty, which culminated in the long civil war that began in 2011.

3:34Assad was finally chased from power in December last year by insurgents led by Ahmed al-Shara the leader of the militant Islamist group HTS When Assad loyalists targeted security forces in March al-Shara's new government called for support from various military units and militia groups What ensued was days of terror directed at Alawites Human rights groups estimate that almost 900 civilians, mainly Alawites, were killed by pro-government forces across Syria's coastal region in early March. You're going to hear a first-hand account of what happened to one Alawite woman, Rindal Aduba, and how she and her family eventually managed to flee Syria.

4:20At her request, we're not saying where she now is. We spent quite a number of days unsure of how we could get out, because the village essentially was under siege. No one could leave. We spent many days without food, electricity, water. There was a massacre in the village right next to us too where there was a fighter group and they would constantly, every hour, send threats that they were coming to our village to cleanse it of the Alawite filth. Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with me, Tim Franks. There seem to be altercations in neighbouring villages or villages nearby where convoys had gone to these villages and they were going after unwarranted arrests initially.

5:06They wanted to take several people. And then that was on the 6th of March. And then in these neighboring villages, actually me and my sister were on the balcony of our house and we watched as helicopters went over and started bombing these villages. Things seemed to calm down by nightfall, although we weren't exactly sure what was going on at the time. On the 7th of March, all through the morning, we could hear gunfire. And this came after news of the day before, where these convoys that were deployed in the coastal areas were supposed to be withdrawing. And we didn't know what was going on. All through the morning, we could hear gunfire that was progressively getting closer and heavier.

5:46There was mortar shelling. And we kept calling relatives and friends who were also in the village. and no one knew what was happening. By late afternoon, we could see smoke and fire and it seemed as if the fight had come right to our doorstep and we still had no idea what was happening. That's when we started hearing banging at the door and my sister realized that they were actually trying to break it down. So we didn't know what to expect. My father and my sister and I went out to the hallway to try and see what was happening. although we could hear bullets being fired and that's when I can't exactly count how many of them came in it was all long hair long beards yelling out sectarian slurs they were calling us pigs and dogs and they started shooting at the ceiling and out the window at the same time it all happens in such a blur I could see that the gardener and the gatekeeper who work for for us were outside being beaten and told to crawl and bark.

6:50About four of these men forced us into the living room while my father was trying to calm the situation. However, his efforts were shut down. They searched our pockets. They took our phones. This was just four of them. The rest of them went through the entire house. We didn't know what they were doing. Rindler, can I just interrupt? You've talked about they and these men. Were there any identifying marks on sort of, you know, uniforms or anything else? Did they say who they were? No, they didn't. They were wearing military uniforms. They had long beards, long hair, no moustache, that kind of typical extremist Islamic look that you see so often.

7:33They didn't claim, they didn't say who they were. They just came in yelling these sectarian slurs. Were they speaking with a Syrian accent? They were Syrian, fully Syrian. We heard of foreign fighters doing similar things in other areas, but the people who entered our home were Syrian. They took our phones and after searching us, they searched our pockets, they searched all our codes, they took anything that was on us, cash, gold, jewellery, anything that we were wearing was taken also. And then one of them yelled out, are you ready to die? We're going to suck your blood, you Alawite pigs. In that moment, it all happened in a bit of a blur.

8:11My sister picked up our passports and she yelled out that we were British. We're British. You can't touch us. We're British. She said that. And one of them who had been ready to fire actually ended up raising his gun at the last second. And the bullet actually went right above my head into the ceiling. an older member of the group who was with them told him to hold it for a second and he asked are you British and my dad said yes and another one said they're liars that's what they say every time after that they started asking questions they started asking my father if he was an army official at any point during his life my dad told him that no he's a cardiologist he lived in London for the last 30 years of his life that we were born and raised in London we'd only just come here We have nothing to do with anything.

8:58Just on that, Rindler, when did you return to Syria? All through the period of the war, we didn't come to Syria. At around 2016, for familial reasons, we started coming back and visiting. And then at around 2020, almost all of our time was in Syria. Right, right. Almost all of it, yeah. So your sister brandished the British passports? Yeah. Some still seemed fired up, like they didn't want to, like they didn't care. Another seemed to tell them to just wait a second. I suppose he paused and thought about it. Then we discovered that the rest, while they were holding us in this room and asking my father questions, they asked if we were Alawites, very mockingly, because they know that the village that we were in, that we're from, is completely Alawite.

9:47They know that we're Alawites. it seemed like he was teasing. And my dad said, yes, am I guilty of that? And he said, no, not at all. We just get a little excited. Sorry about that. During that time, I can't tell you how many of them were raiding the rest of the house, stealing, breaking, destroying everything that they could. They stole anything from food to furniture to electronics, everything, everything that they could pick up, they took. And anything that they couldn't, they broke. After that, We were all terrified and we could see fire from neighboring houses, some of where our relatives live.

10:25But we had no idea what was happening. They left and we tried to block the doorway with a couch. And the two men who worked for us came back in. Before they came back in, another one of them entered the house and he asked, why did the man outside say that there was no one home? It seemed that in a sort of protective effort, the gardener, when they asked him who's home, he said no one's there. And that's part of the reason why they beat him so heavily, him and the gatekeeper, and they destroyed their phones. And they told us, well, they've paid for that lie. So we thought they were dead. We thought that they were dead.

11:01And thank God they were alive. So at what point did you and your family decide, I mean, was it there and then you just thought, we can't stay, we have to go? Kind of, because another group raided about 15 minutes later. And then after that, we discovered that our relative who lives right next to us was killed and his house was set on fire. After that, we spent quite a number of days unsure of how we could get out because the village essentially was under siege. No one could leave. We spent many days without food, electricity, water. There was a massacre in the village right next to us too, where there was a foreign fighter group.

11:43And they would constantly, every hour, send threats that they were coming to our village to cleanse it for Ramadan, because it was Ramadan at the time. Cleanse it of the Alawite filth. That's what they kept saying. So it took a while to figure out how we could get out. And eventually, thankfully, we did. But during those eight days also, we took shifts of guarding the windows to see if anyone was coming back because they'd turn up suddenly. These people, they don't knock your door. They throw it down and they come in. And although we couldn't do anything about it, that's how we spent our nights and our days.

12:17A little over a week later, we did manage to leave. The road out was completely unsafe. We crossed many checkpoints and they'd ask us if we were hijabis or not. No, we had covered our heads on the way out. And one checkpoint, they told us that they were keeping an eye on anyone who was crossing past and anyone who would take their headscarves off after would be tracked down and killed. I'm not sure if that was true. However, it was very scary. That was the few days that followed after that massacre and the massacre of the village right next to us. It sounds utterly terrifying, Rindala. It was.

12:59And also, no one was allowed to come near the body. So they stayed in the streets and in people's homes for three days afterwards until they were buried in a mass grave where only one family member from each family could be present for the burial three days later. And the authorities in Syria, from Ahmad al-Shara down, have said they promised to investigate all the abuses that occurred, that they've already started arresting people and they're going to pursue their cases through the courts. I spoke to a senior member of HTS when I was in Damascus earlier this month, and he said our security is all about collaborating with minority groups and we will track down these outlaws, as he described them, these people who are involved in sectarian violence.

13:57Do you take any reassurance from that? to be completely honest with you a lot of promises have been made by ahmad al-shadda's government since he first took control none of which have come to fruition essentially none of which have proved to come to any result and the problem is is that these groups who carried out these massacres i mean no i mean i can't tell you which one of these factions fall under his control or don't. However, what I do know is that nothing has been done. And we're almost two months later now. Nothing was done. And the problem is, is that... Well, they do say that arrests have been made and that, you know, cases are...

14:42There are people in prison who have been picked up, who, I mean, the BBC has interviewed one of them, who was filmed involved in a sectarian murder. four people were arrested four men were arrested i don't know what to tell you other than that the evidence is all there of who's done it the people i can tell you that entered our home were unmasked from the fear i can't exactly tell you what each one looks like however they weren't hiding themselves when they carried out these massacres and many many of them filmed themselves killing these innocent people i don't believe that an investigation could possibly take this long whether from Syria or from outside of Syria.

15:27That's all I can really say about that. You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service. People shaping our world from all over the world.

15:40This advertisement feature is paid and presented by Poland's Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Got a big idea? Then you need the right destination to make it happen. Welcome to Poland, Europe's launchpad for start-ups. My name is Rosalia Urbanek, Chief Investment Officer at PFR Ventures. We invest in innovation, and there is so much to be found in Poland. Poland is somewhere you can accelerate your business with unrivaled higher-educated talent, which is everywhere. From engineers and designers to marketers and innovators, Poland is home to one of the youngest, most ambitious workforces in Europe, ready to help turn your vision into a business that scales.

16:25We invested in more than 90 funds, which finance growth of more than 900 companies in Poland. With competitive costs, a buzzing innovation scene and access to 38 million consumers right at your doorstep, Poland gives you the space and the business support to grow faster.

16:47So if you're ready to take your startup to the next level, choose Poland, where bold ideas become global success stories. Find out more at polandyourplacetogrow.com

17:03Because PwC understands your business, we provide you with AI solutions that deliver real impact. Tailor AI for your business at pwc.ie PwC. So you can.

17:20For this episode of The Interview, I'm speaking to a British Syrian member of the Alawite community who came under attack with her family during the sectarian violence on Syria's coast in March. It's a country I visited and reported from earlier this month. Syrians, in the words of one man I spoke to, are desperate for hope, and many insist they are optimistic after the long years of the brutal Assad dictatorship. But it's also a country that has been ruined by war and where there are deep concerns about whether Syria's new Sunni Islamist rulers will lead the country towards democracy and genuine inclusion.

17:59Let's return to the conversation. What you have talked about and the evidence that is clearly there of what happened at the beginning of March is utterly horrific. This is in no way to suggest that it is justified. But I just wonder what you thought before that when there were attacks by people who groups who declared themselves loyal to the previous regime who did attack security checkpoints and other installations in a coordinated series of attacks before those those revenge massacres started. I mean, when you heard about that, what was your reaction? I mean, were you fearful of what might then ensue?

18:51I can tell you confidently that the matter of regime remnants is a complete scapegoat for sectarian killings because these people, very, very, very few people, I think they can be counted on one hand, that still claim to be associated with the old regime. Any Alawite that tried to fight back, I can tell you confidently was fighting back as an Alawite who was being hunted down and killed or in danger from these people. And I can give you an example of the massacre that happened in Fahil in Western Hamas, which happened in January. Nothing of any sort of attack from the Alawite people had come towards any HTS affiliated factions before then.

19:39Nothing of the sort had happened. And over there, almost, if not more than 70 people were killed, 70 Alawites were killed. And then in the days following that, there was another massacre in the suburbs of Hama, where, again, tens of Alawites were killed. And this happened all the way back in January. Back then, no one was prosecuted. No one was arrested. And two days after that, Ahmad al-Shubhara named himself de facto president of Syria. and he held a conference with the people who control these factions and he dissolved them. So this began far before any attacks from anyone against HTS and anyone who tried to defend themselves poorly, may I just say, because there were no options to defend yourself with, considering the Alawites handed in their weapons when HTS took over willingly.

20:38And in acceptance for change and fear, they did so. There are outside observers, I mean, including the United Nations, the UK-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, who have said that there are Assad-linked armed groups. On a broader point, what you thought when Assad was chased from power back in December? everyone including myself my family was accepting to change however the night when everything happened the night of december 7th through to the morning of december 8th whilst we were at home listening to the news and keeping up with updates there was a sort of fear that suddenly set in so whilst we were accepting of change considering we saw how the assad regime looked like and we experienced it also, it turned ugly very quickly.

21:35And that's when me and my family, as Alawites, left the capital and went to the coast. So since then, there was fear for the Alawites. However, as a point of view from Assad leaving, everyone was open to change because the regime was very difficult on everyone. It wasn't, you know, the rich, the poor, all sects, all religions. It was very difficult for everyone. Well, it was more than difficult, wasn't it? I mean, it committed most appalling abuses. I mean, I, you know, I'm sure you know, many of them. But I mean, I, it feels like pretty much everybody knows somebody in Syria that seemed that way when I was there, who was disappeared by the regime, let alone those who were known to have died in the torture centers.

22:18That's exactly the issue is that that's why everyone was so accepting of change. And yet matters got worse. Yeah. So the opinion changed very quickly. Yeah. And listen, The last thing I want to do in any situation would be to suggest that subsequent generations should pay for whatever sins their ancestors may have committed. But, I mean, your grandfather was a senior security chief in Assad Seniors regime. The reporting that I've read suggests that he was part of the people who set up the instruments of repression, the secret police and so forth. I mean, I just wonder whether, as I say, it's in no way to suggest that there is any culpability, but did that add to your sense of feeling exposed?

23:08Initially, not, because my father and my mother and me and my sisters, we'd lived in London our entire lives. We had absolutely nothing to do with Bashar's presidency. I believe when the killings grew further more than just people who were associated with Bashar when it turned sectarian, And when multiple people who had nothing to do with the regime were being arrested or killed, I suppose there was some fear. There was in the fact that perhaps someone, you know, might want to take revenge on either his son or his children, which would absolutely make no sense. Because even he himself, my grandfather, he never agreed with Bashar and never agreed with his regime.

23:55And supposedly this liberation, I use the term liberation very, very weakly because this was not a liberation from anything, seeing how matters are right now. Syria is not free, in my opinion. I do believe that, I mean, it was supposed to be about Bashar. So after that, I do think I felt, I started to question it, but I tried to keep in my mind that, you know, at least my close family, this generation had nothing to do with it. I tried to, but I can't tell you what I was thinking back then. I was thinking about 101 things. It wasn't just about my family's history. Yeah. And what did you think last week when you saw Donald Trump greeting Ahmed al-Shara and describing him as an attractive guy, a tough guy, a fighter, and, of course, also promising to lift sanctions?

24:46I mean, there is an argument that Syria's best chance for stability runs through the economy, that actually if people can start feeling better off, it's going to just lower the temperature everywhere. Well, the thing is, is that for the longest time, the Syrians have wanted these sanctions lifted because they affected absolutely everyone. However, the timing is just off. It almost seems as if, I mean, I can tell you from a personal standpoint, it almost seems as if this new government has been rewarded for something. Although I don't see any positive change that has been made in Syria since they took over.

25:34So the timing seems to be very off for me. And, you know, I saw Trump saying that Ahmad Shadr has a strong past. A strong past does not mean a positive past at all. His past, in my opinion, is completely unforgivable, Ahmad Al-Shadda's past. And if we are to accept this change, and if we are supposed to look forward to how he plans on running the country, on how he plans on improving it, in order to forgive his past, he needs to forgive the current people's past, the people who he seems to call regime remnants or people who were in any kind of way involved in the regime that are being arrested or killed now.

26:17I don't think it's a fair judgment to say, to forgive his past so easily and to just accept it. So I think the lift of the sanctions is, it's far too early to celebrate it. Far too early to celebrate it because there's still so much bloodshed. And it's disappointing considering we've all been waiting for the lift of sanctions for so long. I just do believe the timing is just a bit off, considering no one within Syria and outside of Syria has done anything about what happened on the coast. Thank you for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. If you enjoyed today's programme, you can listen to the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

27:06by Poland's Ministry of Foreign Affairs. When ambitious business leaders plan their next move, they look to Poland. My name is Marcin Piontkowski and I'm a professor of economics at Kozminski University in Warsaw. Over the past 35 years, Poland has been the fastest growing economy in Europe and it has grown into one of Europe's most dynamic economies. It's a place where stability meets opportunity. a central location connecting East and West with a workforce of over 17 million skilled professionals and a thriving R &D ecosystem supported by competitive costs and investment incentives. It's therefore no surprise that brands like Samsung, Google, IBM, Volvo and many others have invested here.