In short
BBC World Service “The Interview with Survivors of Jeffrey Epstein” features five Epstein survivors discussing abuse, trauma, and calls for accountability amid the 2019 DOJ release of Epstein files and Melania Trump’s push for congressional hearings.
Guest backgrounds
Wendy Passante (survivor); Joanna Harrison (trafficked at 18); Jenna Lisa Jones (survivor at 14); Shantae Davies (survivor; first encounter at 22); Lisa Phillips (21-year-old model; met Epstein on his island in 2000). They describe being groomed via “massage” offers, including trips to Epstein’s New Mexico ranch and private island.
Key claims
Epstein’s abuse began with “massage” that escalated to rape/assault; survivors say authorities failed to interview them despite names given to the FBI; they reject the idea that Epstein’s death was justice and argue other perpetrators may still operate.
Notable examples
Shantae describes masturbation at first encounter and rape on the island; Joanna says Palm Beach police interviewed her in 2006 with no follow-up; Lisa says Epstein assaulted her and another girl on the island and that she later confronted Epstein about Prince Andrew’s alleged involvement; multiple survivors discuss Ghislaine Maxwell’s alleged role in grooming and Virginia Giuffre’s impact.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOContext and Background of Epstein
0:46 to 2:15
Discussion about Epstein's background and the impact of his actions.
“For this interview, I met survivors of the late paedophile Jeffrey Epstein, the disgraced financier who died in prison in 2019 while awaiting trial for charges of sex trafficking.”
Survivors Introduce Themselves
2:16 to 4:25
Survivors share their names and experiences with Epstein.
“Shantae, if I can begin with you, can I ask what happened when the abuse began?”
First Encounters with Epstein
4:26 to 6:20
Survivors recount their initial encounters and the abuse that followed.
“So you just try to get through it and then, you know, you don't have to come back.”
Recollections of Abuse and Its Impact
6:21 to 9:10
Detailed narratives of the abuse experienced by the survivors.
“And it's like, all right, I guess, I guess it's my time.”
Conversations About Justice
9:11 to 12:00
Survivors discuss the concept of justice in light of Epstein's death.
“my loved ones my children my spouse my family my clients I'm a small business owner I I don't want any undue harm to come to any of them.”
Introduction to Epstein Survivors
14:31 to 14:50
Listen to the experiences of women who survived abuse by Jeffrey Epstein.
“I've been talking to a group of women who survived the sexual abuse perpetrated by the paedophile Jeffrey Epstein.”
Lisa's Experience on Epstein's Island
14:54 to 16:18
Lisa shares her harrowing experience of encountering Epstein on his island.
“Lisa, you were a 21-year-old model and you were on a modelling shoot with a friend of yours and you both met Epstein on his island in the year 2000.”
Andrew's Encounter and Its Aftermath
16:24 to 18:35
A survivor discusses Prince Andrew's involvement and the impact of his actions.
“He was in the pool with a young blonde girl.”
Ghislaine Maxwell's Role in the Abuse
18:36 to 19:45
Exploring Ghislaine Maxwell's complicity in Epstein's abuse of young women.
“luring underage girls, young women for Epstein to abuse.”
Reactions to Andrew's Settlement
19:46 to 21:39
The survivors react to Andrew's settlement with Virginia Giuffre and his denials.
“Does it say to you she knows stuff, she's just keeping it back as leverage?”
Show all 12 chapters
Impact of Abuse on Survivors' Lives
21:40 to 23:13
Survivors discuss the long-lasting effects of their abuse on their lives.
“I like it led me down another very dark path for quite some years.”
Seeking Justice: Survivors' Perspectives
23:14 to 24:03
The survivors share their views on what justice means to them.
“Honestly, just starting with some accountability and arresting people and investigating and doing their jobs, I don't know.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Victoria Derbyshire:This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.
0:03Epstein survivors:This is the BBC World Service. The following edition of The Interview with Survivors of Jeffrey Epstein contains descriptions you may find upsetting from the outset. Hello, I'm BBC presenter Victoria Derbyshire and this is The Interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world.
0:27Victoria Derbyshire:If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention. We have never seen a people so united. Do not make that boat crossing. Do not make that journey. Being born in America, feeling American, having people treat me like I'm not. We're more popular than populism.
0:46Epstein survivors:For this interview, I met survivors of the late paedophile Jeffrey Epstein, the disgraced financier who died in prison in 2019 while awaiting trial for charges of sex trafficking. I met the survivors in Washington, D.C., and our conversation took place just two weeks before the First Lady of the United States, Melania Trump, gave an unexpected press conference at the White House, during which she called for congressional hearings for survivors of Epstein's sex trafficking. Her intervention comes amid a backdrop of the ongoing fallout from the release of the Epstein files, by the US Department of Justice.
1:23Epstein survivors:Millions of documents, emails and photographs are now in the public domain and show Epstein's connections to high-profile figures around the world, across politics, business and royalty. In this interview, which some listeners may find upsetting, Epstein's survivors share their experiences and discuss the impact that the abuse has had on their lives.
1:48Epstein survivors:Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with survivors of Jeffrey Epstein.
1:54Victoria Derbyshire:My name is Wendy Passante and I'm an Epstein survivor. I'm Joanna Harrison and I was trafficked by Epstein when I was 18. And I am Jenna Lisa Jones and I'm a survivor of Jeffrey Epstein's at the age of 14. I'm Shantae Davies. I am a survivor of Jeffrey Epstein and I met him at 22 years old. I'm Lisa Phillips and I'm a survivor of Jeffrey Epstein and I also met him in my early 20s as well.
2:22Epstein survivors:Welcome. Thank you. Shantae, if I can begin with you, can I ask what happened when the abuse began?
2:30Victoria Derbyshire:Well, so initially I had met him one time and he basically masturbated in front of me on the first encounter.
2:43Epstein survivors:And when that happened, Shanto, what on earth are you thinking?
2:50Victoria Derbyshire:Quite honestly, I mean, you're very much in shock, or at least someone who's not apt to being able to have a voice in that situation and to be able to protect your own self. It's almost like very much deer in headlights where you freeze.
3:06Epstein survivors:And I understand he took you to his ranch in New Mexico. It's a very eerie feeling to it. So there are a few people there. It's isolating. How are you feeling?
3:22Epstein survivors:Trapped. And I understand he also took you to his private island. Did he sexually assault you there?
3:30Victoria Derbyshire:Yeah, that's actually where the first actual assault happened is on the island.
3:34Epstein survivors:Right. Did he rape you?
3:36Victoria Derbyshire:Mm-hmm.
3:37Epstein survivors:Yeah. I'm going to bring in Jenna-Lisa and Wendy now. How old were you both when you encountered Epstein for the first time? Fourteen. You were both fourteen? And Jenna-Lisa, can I ask you what he offered you or suggested to you or how he brought you in?
3:59Victoria Derbyshire:He didn't offer me anything. My friend did. She said it was going to be a massage, and it was supposed to be just so very, like, that's what it was going to be. And it wasn't. It does start out as a massage, and he's, like, telling you what to do. And then he just, like, flips over, and then that whole dynamic changes. And then at that time, you do. You freeze. And so you just buy your time, you know? You're like, I know I'm only going to be in here for so long, right? So you just try to get through it and then, you know, you don't have to come back.
4:33Epstein survivors:Your name, as I understand it, was given to the FBI.
4:38Victoria Derbyshire:Multiple times for her.
4:40Epstein survivors:Right. Multiple times. And have you ever been interviewed? Never. By then?
4:44Victoria Derbyshire:Never.
4:45Epstein survivors:By the U.S. authorities? What do you think about that?
4:48Victoria Derbyshire:They're telling everyone that investigations have happened when I'm saying, hey, you know, Now I'm not saying that I have any other abusers or any other information to give you, but the fact that you haven't even cared to ask. So what they're kind of saying, like, maybe that's not a can of worms that we want to open. And, you know, we do hear that a lot that he's dead. You know, what can you do?
5:14Epstein survivors:But what do you think about that, Janelisa?
5:16Victoria Derbyshire:Well, I just think it's mind blowing. He didn't run this whole operation himself. So the fact that you're going to just put that just because he was the one that abused us, that that's where, oh, OK, he's died. You got justice. I don't feel that him dying is justice to me. And the fact that people think that this isn't still happening, it is. Don't think for one second that they've stopped doing what they've been doing.
5:38Epstein survivors:You mean the perpetrators?
5:39Victoria Derbyshire:Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And honestly, they're probably laughing at all of us like, yeah, you guys will be dead before this ever goes anywhere. So we're not worried about it.
5:47Epstein survivors:Joanna I'd like to bring in you if I may you have never spoken publicly before correct about what happened to you until today yes and I think Joanna you were never planning to reveal your identity were you no I wasn't and did you want the Epstein files to be released I actually didn't because
6:10Victoria Derbyshire:my fear was with the files being released that my name would be released which it was and it was released over and over and over again.
6:19Epstein survivors:Even though it was supposed to have been redacted.
6:21Victoria Derbyshire:And it's like, all right, I guess, I guess it's my time.
6:24Epstein survivors:Right. And that's led to your decision today. Pretty much. Yeah. You had just graduated from high school. Yes. So what kind of age are you there?
6:33Victoria Derbyshire:I was 18 when I met him.
6:35Epstein survivors:Right. And similar to, to what we heard from Jen and Lisa and Wendy, someone, a friend said to you, look, you can make a few hundred dollars, rub this guy's back. He's rich. There was another time when you recall his abuse and that was his birthday. That was Epstein's birthday.
6:55Victoria Derbyshire:Yes. Yeah. On that day, he raped me. And I didn't really consider it rape at first. It took me a very long time to realize what happened. Um, part of it is because I had been violently raped prior and so someone else by somebody else. Yeah. And so when that was happening, it was nothing like what I had experienced before. And so it just, you almost feel like you're not getting raped and he stopped. And so it's like, Like you have, it's very mind boggling because it's like something that just lasts like a few seconds or it's like you just, okay, that didn't really happen. You can kind of push that down or that doesn't count.
7:48Epstein survivors:What happened after and not that long after is that the Palm Beach police approached you to interview you in 2006, 2006. And did anything happen after that?
8:02Victoria Derbyshire:It was a strange interview. They didn't really tell me what it was about, what to expect. And when I was speaking with the police, they took down my statement, but didn't say much after. I felt like I was going to get in trouble. I didn't know if I was a suspect, if something that I could be in trouble for. But it was so strange because it was just kind of like, oh, well, don't be surprised if you hear from his attorneys. What? Yeah, it was, I actually left terrified thinking that I was going to be followed and have people constantly showing up. And, you know.
8:40Epstein survivors:So obviously nothing happened after that?
8:42Victoria Derbyshire:No follow up at all until his arrest. And then I found out when the world found out.
Read the full transcript
8:48Epstein survivors:There are other survivors who don't want to be identified. And I've been talking to one of them. We're calling her Nikki. It's not her real name. like Joanna here she is speaking publicly for the first time and she tells me why.
9:04Victoria Derbyshire:I want to stay confidential for a variety of reasons it is very challenging it's hard to make this decision but ultimately there is collateral damage not only to myself but to my loved ones my children my spouse my family my clients I'm a small business owner I I don't want any undue harm to come to any of them.
9:29Epstein survivors:You were introduced to him when you were 19 and you were working as a model. Yes. And similar to others, your friend said that giving Epstein a massage was a way to make money.
9:43Victoria Derbyshire:So I started at his feet, worked my way up. And when I got to his upper thigh and went onto his chest, he pulled at my jeans, like almost to unbutton them. And I stepped back and I said, no, I'm on my period, which I wasn't. I lie. And from there, he was like, oh, well, some of the girls like to have sex. You should really think about having sex with me. It would be so great. I'd be the best you've ever had or something like that. And I was just like, no, I'm good. And so he asked me to massage his chest. And I remember doing that. And he had a bottle of Fiji water, which is the water he always had.
10:21Victoria Derbyshire:And he said, make sure you stay hydrated. You need to be sure to stay hydrated. and I did I took some water and I have no recollection of anything for a minimum of 12 hours after that I just remember waking up and feeling oh my gosh I'm sick I felt sluggish and like heavy and then I got up and I went to the bathroom and as a woman you can you you feel certain things when you've had intercourse sometimes and I definitely felt that almost pressure.
10:54Epstein survivors:Can I ask you, do you think when you were out cold, he raped you? 100%. Right.
11:03Victoria Derbyshire:And I know that because he told me.
11:04Epstein survivors:He told you he raped you?
11:06Victoria Derbyshire:Yes, because during the third massage, he once again tried to pull up my jeans. And I was like, no, no, I'm on my period. And he says, you don't have to lie to me, Nikki. I didn't put two and two together until I made that call on July 8th, 2019 to the FBI.
11:22Epstein survivors:Because he already knew you weren't on your period because he'd raped you.
11:26Victoria Derbyshire:And then he did again.
11:28Epstein survivors:Jesus.
11:31Victoria Derbyshire:And that was a memory I did not recall until September of 2019 when I literally was balled up on the floor having a panic attack at home.
11:42Epstein survivors:Listening to Nikki, do you understand that sort of fear that she's described?
11:46Victoria Derbyshire:Although at times I do, you know, I find myself locking doors in my house that I didn't normally lock before.
11:52Epstein survivors:Because you think what you might potentially be targeted because you've spoken out against powerful, powerful elite.
11:58Victoria Derbyshire:Yeah, because I don't plan on quitting and I still have a lot more to say that hasn't been said. So, yeah, I feel like there's already been people who have been silenced permanently. And I don't know why that would leave us. Why would we be left off that list, to be honest? um i mean even jeffrey himself i mean whoever killed him silenced him so you don't believe he took his own life absolutely not no no none of you do do you have any evidence that he was
12:29Epstein survivors:do you have any evidence that's the government why would we have that because we knew him
12:34Victoria Derbyshire:sorry yeah we knew the kind of person he was he never seen he he knew he never thought he was going to walk away from even this yes it's so big he knew he was going to get away with it yeah he He got away with it before.
12:48Epstein survivors:You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service.
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14:21Victoria Derbyshire:It all starts with a subscription to bbc.com and a BBC app. Find out more at bbc.com slash unlimited.
14:31Epstein survivors:I've been talking to a group of women who survived the sexual abuse perpetrated by the paedophile Jeffrey Epstein. These women were determined and frustrated and sick of being ignored. And they want justice. But justice means something different to each of them. So let's return to my conversation with Epstein's survivors. Lisa, you were a 21-year-old model and you were on a modelling shoot with a friend of yours and you both met Epstein on his island in the year 2000.
15:06Epstein survivors:and like with the other women here, he knocked on your door, yep, ready for my massage. How would you describe what happened to you? He sent a boat and just spent the day there
15:19Victoria Derbyshire:and one of the young girls knocked on the door and said, you know, Jeffrey was ready for his massage and I had to always remember that phrase. And like they all said, it was a real massage that turned into, with myself, it was an assault right after he turned around and started masturbating and assaulted both myself and the other girl that was in the room that day.
15:45Epstein survivors:Okay. Afterwards, how did that make you feel?
15:50Victoria Derbyshire:I was horrified. It was scary to me because I was on an island. I didn't know how to get away. and I just stayed up all night just like waiting for dawn to break just to get on that boat to go back and and leave that island we weren't um expecting this to happen and I think that he liked the fear in our eyes I think he liked that we were frozen and scared and didn't know what to
16:18Epstein survivors:do and I think he got off on that and I the first time you were sexually assaulted Andrew was on that island at that time? Yeah.
16:27Victoria Derbyshire:I met him briefly. He was in the pool with a young blonde girl. And at dinner, he was getting ready to leave and he said goodbye to everybody at the table. And that's when I was telling Geoffrey when I had met him that I had grown up the first few years of my life in Oxford, England. And that's when he said, did you want to meet a prince? And so I just looked up and met him briefly and he walked away. So I didn't really think much of it till a few years later.
16:53Epstein survivors:What is it that your friend told you that Andrew had done to her?
17:01Victoria Derbyshire:Well, my girlfriend, she was the reason why I started speaking out because I wanted to speak for her because she didn't want to because the abuse happened to her. And in late 2003, she had been traveling a bit with Jeffrey, like kind of like you had, you know, to different countries and things. And she said she went to his Upper East Side house and former Prince Andrew was there and that he made her, forced her to go into a room and to have sex with this man. And she didn't want to and she argued with him. She said he made her and she went into the room for a few minutes and then he kind of discarded her and walked out.
17:46Epstein survivors:And when you say he, who's the he making her do that? Jeffrey Epstein. Making her go into that room and Andrew was in there and she was required to have sex with him. That's what happened. Right. Andrew denies all wrongdoing. You, as I understand it, you confronted Epstein after that. What did you say to him? How did he respond?
18:13Victoria Derbyshire:I had just said to him, you know, why did you make my, why did you make so-and-so do that? he just like had this little grin that he has you know a little smirk smirk he has you know
18:24Epstein survivors:oh I like to have things on people and I was just like what he likes to have things on people so
18:30Victoria Derbyshire:I remember I wrote it in my diary because I was like what did that that didn't make sense Epstein
18:34Epstein survivors:and Maxwell obviously worked together she's in jail for 20 years as you know for essentially luring underage girls, young women for Epstein to abuse. What was her role?
18:48Victoria Derbyshire:She very much was the person that made it feel safe. She was the first person I met and seemed to take a very large interest in what I had already gone through at that point in my life and what my goals were and my dreams.
19:05Epstein survivors:And that's part of the grooming process, isn't it? You make people believe they care about you. How much does it concern you that there is only one person in prison for the abuse of all these girls and women and it's her?
19:16Victoria Derbyshire:Infuriating.
19:18Epstein survivors:Infuriating?
19:19Victoria Derbyshire:Oh, yeah.
19:21Epstein survivors:Recently, Ghislaine Maxwell refused to answer questions from the U.S. House Oversight Committee when she appeared virtually from her Texas prison.
19:29Victoria Derbyshire:I think silence speaks louder than words a lot of times. Honestly, I think it's laughable that they even brought her out there. She wants immunity. That's all it is. She's not going to say anything, give up anything. She's only out there to protect herself. So the fact that we keep doing stuff like that is just honestly a joke.
19:47Epstein survivors:Does it say to you she knows stuff, she's just keeping it back as leverage?
19:51Victoria Derbyshire:We all know that she does. Yeah. Yeah. She knows everything that we would want to hear, but she's never going to divulge that information. even if she was granted clemency she wouldn't divulge that information like it's not gonna
20:05Epstein survivors:happen one woman who is no longer here is virginia gifre what did she mean to some of you you're smiling lisa when you think about virginia why i do because she was so brave
20:19Victoria Derbyshire:i think if she hadn't come forward most of us wouldn't have i know the only reason why i spoke out was because I saw her 60-minute interview and she was speaking about former Prince Andrew. And I felt like I had to support her. You know, I reached out to her after that and started like connecting the dots a little bit of our stories.
20:40Epstein survivors:You will know that she said she was forced to have sex with Andrew on three separate occasions, having been trafficked by Epstein and Maxwell. Andrew paid her an out-of-court settlement, reportedly 12 million, with no liability, with no... He's always rejected claims of wrongdoing. He said at the end of the statement that accompanied that settlement that he pledged to demonstrate his regret for his association with Epstein by, quote, supporting the fight against the evils of sex trafficking and by supporting his victims. As far as we know, you're smiling, Jenelisa, as I read this. Why?
21:16Victoria Derbyshire:Because it's just crazy that, like... Yeah, I don't know. Why would he even say that? Like, support who?
21:22Epstein survivors:He's always denied wrongdoing, but you think... You don't pay$12 million if you're not wrong. So even though he says, I don't remember Virginia Dufresne, I never met her, I've never done anything wrong.
21:33Victoria Derbyshire:Why did you pay her$12 million?
21:35Epstein survivors:Why did you lose your title? Why have you been ran through the mud? Can I ask you all what has been the impact of the sexual abuse that you were subjected to by Epstein on the rest of your life, Janelisa?
21:52Victoria Derbyshire:I mean, it set the tone. I was 14 years old. I like it led me down another very dark path for quite some years. And from that moment on, it like learned how to use my body for money. I think it's hard to keep going over it all the time and seeing nothing come out of it. And it's I think this is more re-traumatizing than the actual abuse. I think a lot of us say that. And it's just a lot. Because you can't get away from it. It's hard to heal when it's something you see every day. Or when I was on a first date and somebody brought it up to me, not knowing my involvement. There's certain things that you can't prepare yourself for.
22:36Victoria Derbyshire:And it makes it really hard to heal when you're stuck in the same place and seeing that person's face every day and hearing their name every day. I don't think there's an aspect of my life that it hasn't affected it. It's physically, spiritually, emotionally. I could never leave my daughter alone with a man, any man, ever, no matter what age. She'll never have a sleepover. Because you just don't trust people. Yeah, I just feel like you just don't really ever know what's going on behind closed doors.
23:05Epstein survivors:So it actually has affected every single part of your life, the abuse that Epstein subjected you to. Generally, so what does justice look like for you?
23:16Victoria Derbyshire:Honestly, just starting with some accountability and arresting people and investigating and doing their jobs, I don't know. I don't know if we'll ever be able to fully have justice. So to be able to ask that question, I feel like is like, will we truly ever have full justice in this? No. I'll say that my justice would be to move on and never hear about this man's name again in the future. I would like a generation not to know who Jeffrey Epstein is someday. I agree. I mean, I don't know that there really is a justice that we can get, especially with Epstein not being around anymore. We don't get our answers.
23:55Victoria Derbyshire:We don't. I have questions I'll never get an answer to. And so for me, there's not really any. But I just hope that we can see through this and see and never have anything like this happen again.
24:15Epstein survivors:Thank you for listening to The Interview. If you've been affected by our conversation, you can reach out to Befrienders Worldwide for help by visiting befrienders.org. You can find more in-depth conversations on The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Until the next time, goodbye for now.
25:02Victoria Derbyshire:We'll be right back. independent journalism and storytelling. It all starts with a subscription to bbc.com and the BBC app. Find out more at bbc.com slash unlimited.
From the publisher
Victoria Derbyshire speaks to survivors of paedophile Jeffrey Epstein, the disgraced financier who died in prison in 2019 while awaiting a trial for sex trafficking.
The interview took place in Washington DC, two weeks before Melania Trump, US First Lady, gave an unexpected press conference at the White House where she called for congressional hearings for the Epstein survivors.
Millions of documents, emails and photographs are now in the public domain and show Epstein’s connections to high profile figures from politics, business and royalty.
In this interview, which some listeners may find upsetting, Chauntae Davies, Joanna Harrison, Jena-Lisa Jones, Wendy Pesante and Lisa Phillips share their experiences, and discuss the impact that the abuse has had on their lives.
Thank you to the Newsnight team for their help in making this programme.
If you’ve been affected by this programme, you can reach out to Befrienders Worldwide for help by visiting befrienders.org
The Interview brings you conversations with people shaping our world, from all over the world. You can listen on the BBC World Service on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays at 0800 GMT. Or you can listen to The Interview as a podcast, out three times a week on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts.
Presenter: Victoria Derbyshire Producers: Katherine Hodgson, Charlotte Sexton, Carys Nally and Ben Cooper Editor: Damon Rose
Get in touch with us on email TheInterview@bbc.co.uk and use the hashtag #TheInterviewBBC on social media.