In short
Exclusive BBC World Service interview with Vadim Skibitsky, deputy chief of Ukraine’s GUR intelligence, on Russia’s winter strategy, deep-range drone strikes, air-defense shortages, and foreign support (North Korea, Belarus).
Guests
Vadim Skibitsky (Major General; deputy chief of Ukraine’s GUR; former peace-negotiation participant; guarded about sensitive details). Interviewer: BBC News Ukraine correspondent Dan Johnson.
Key claims
Ukraine has stopped Russia’s 2024 offensive tempo and is grinding down Moscow via “deep strike” targeting defense industry, logistics, and airbases; Russia plans winter attacks to disrupt heating, water, and electricity for civilians; Ukraine lacks air defense against ballistic missiles and relies on partners like Patriot PAC-3.
Notable examples
last winter’s destruction of Kharkiv heating; deep strikes on an “English airbase” leading aircraft to redeploy to another base (e.g., “Alenia”); North Korea supplying ~40% of Russian battlefield munitions in 2024–25 and deploying 11,000+ troops in Kursk Oblast with possible 30,000–50,000 more; Belarus exercises for nuclear delivery and Iskander deployment.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOUkraine's Intelligence Service Overview
2:01 to 3:35
Discussion on the GUR's role and Ukraine's defense strategies.
“These companies don't really, they don't care what governments do.”
Challenges of Russian Troop Recruitment
3:35 to 4:21
Vadim Skibitsky discusses Russia's recruitment of foreign troops.
“Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Vadim Skibitsky.”
Ukraine's Current Defense Successes
4:21 to 5:14
Insights on Ukraine's defensive strategies against Russia's offensive.
“And of course, a lot of such persons from the territory of the former Soviet Union, from Central Asia, but a lot of such persons today from other countries, including, for example, Africa.”
Air Defense Challenges in Ukraine
5:14 to 7:59
Vadim details the critical need for air defense systems against Russian strikes.
“Unfortunately, one of the problems for us is air defense.”
Civilian Impact of Ongoing Warfare
7:59 to 9:11
Discussion on how the war impacts ordinary Ukrainians as winter approaches.
“Do you think ordinary Ukrainian people are going to feel the impact of that even more this winter than last?”
Strategies Against Russian Missile Launches
9:11 to 11:16
Skibitsky explains the Ukrainian strategies to counter missile launch threats.
“it's going to be even less safe, more people will die.”
Ukraine's Targeting of Russian Infrastructure
11:16 to 13:14
Discussion on Ukraine's deep-strike capabilities and their implications.
“Because the logistics system is one of the main elements today in the battlefield.”
Ethics of Warfare and Civilian Impact
13:14 to 14:00
A complex discussion on the morality of targeting in warfare and its consequences.
“we have real evidence that due to Russian electronic warfare, due to Russian air defense system, due to some technical problems with Russian equipment, many of them killed by Russian weapons.”
The Complexity of Civilian Casualties
14:00 to 16:06
A discussion on the moral implications and the reality of civilian casualties in the conflict.
“Do you see the possibility that that, in Russia's eyes, justifies more attacks to kill Ukrainian civilians?”
Insights on Russian Strategy and North Korean Involvement
18:12 to 22:24
Vadim Skibitsky discusses the current state of Russian military strategy and North Korean support.
“Do you think there's any hope for that anytime soon?”
Show all 11 chapters
Nuclear Threats from Belarus
22:24 to 25:18
Exploring the potential nuclear threats posed by Belarus and Russia's military exercises.
“Do you think those North Korean soldiers could be deployed on Ukrainian territory?”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Vadym Skibitsky:This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.
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1:37Vadym Skibitsky:Hello, I'm BBC News Ukraine correspondent Dan Johnson and this is The Interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. I want to get freedom. I like their freedom.
1:54Dan Johnson:A gender equal world would be a better world for men too. We need this is fire. We need healing. We need trust. These companies don't really, they don't care what governments do.
2:05Vadym Skibitsky:This is a war. The first thing that we want is the war to end. For this interview, I met Vadim Skibitsky, deputy chief of the GUR, Ukraine's intelligence service, at a secret location in Ukraine's capital, Kyiv. Formed shortly after Ukraine declared independence from the Soviet Union in 1991, the GUR is tasked with defending the country at home and abroad through the use of political and military intelligence. Following Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, the service has played a key role in holding off and pushing back Ukraine's larger neighbour through activities including intelligence gathering, espionage and sabotage.
2:47Vadym Skibitsky:As the war gears up to enter another harsh winter with no obvious end in sight, both sides continue to look for new ways to break the deadlock. In this exclusive, wide-ranging interview, Skibitsky discusses Russia's use of North Korean troops and military hardware in the war. He also talks about Ukraine's latest strategy of deep-range drone strikes thousands of kilometers into Russia and how its military plans to grind down Moscow.
3:14Dan Johnson:We have not another way for surviving because we're an independent state. It's our territory, it's our land, it's our culture, it's our history. We must fight to prevent the full occupation of Russian Federation, by Russian Federation, our territory.
3:35Vadym Skibitsky:Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Vadim Skibitsky.
3:41Dan Johnson:The plan to recruit at least 408 ,000 persons. But we really have information about the plans of Russia for recruiting foreign persons in most of them today, unfortunately, in the territory of Russia. For example, today, from the beginning of this year, at least 10 ,000 foreigners in the Russian Federation signed a contract with the Ministry of Defense. And according to the plans of the General Staff of the Russian Federation, they tried to sign the contract in this year, at least 18.5 thousand persons. And of course, a lot of such persons from the territory of the former Soviet Union, from Central Asia, but a lot of such persons today from other countries, including, for example, Africa.
4:34Dan Johnson:And we understand why. Because the influence of Russian African Corps and presence, the Russian troops, real Russian troops and units in the territory of many African countries today.
4:47Vadym Skibitsky:Where do you think Ukraine is having real success right now?
4:50Dan Johnson:Today, first of all, we stopped the temp of offensive activity of Russian Federation in this year. And plus our deep strike, plus our new elements of FPV drones and experience and skills of our persons, our fighters, to stop, to really stop the strategic offensive operation of Russian Federation in our territory.
5:13Vadym Skibitsky:What are the biggest challenges you face?
5:15Dan Johnson:Unfortunately, one of the problems for us is air defense. air defense, especially against ballistic missiles. But unfortunately, only Patriot Pak III can destroy and shut down the ballistic missiles of Russian Federation.
5:30Vadym Skibitsky:How desperate is that shortage?
5:31Dan Johnson:Unfortunately, Russia has normal arsenal for the strike, and we depend on receiving such equipment from our partners.
5:42Vadym Skibitsky:How difficult and dangerous will the months ahead be if you don't have those air defenses?
5:47Dan Johnson:First of all, we understand the plans of Russian Federation concerning the targets in our territory. That it's critical infrastructure, and plus it's our defense industry, enterprises, factories, because we really can produce a lot of FPD drones and other equipment that we use against aggressors in the front line.
6:08Vadym Skibitsky:What is the thing that worries you the most when you consider the different threats Russia poses?
6:13Dan Johnson:First of all, today we really understand that possible threat in the winter period of time, especially, for example, destroy, disrupt water supply system, heating system, electricity system, and other objects and facilities for normal life of civilian population.
6:31Vadym Skibitsky:And do you have the intelligence that those sorts of attacks are being planned by Russia? Yeah, absolutely.
6:37Dan Johnson:Due to our capability, defense, intelligence of Ukraine, we absolutely understand the plans. We can obtain a lot of information about the preparation. And of course, it's very important concerning the targets. Russian Federation understand what is very important for our population. Because, for example, in Kiev City, in Kharkiv City, last winter, Russian Federation absolutely destroyed maybe all main elements of heating system in Kharkiv. Next one, they understand the problems with water supply in large cities. Because from the beginning, this system was established as a centralized system. And all of this plan, Russian Federation really has.
7:26Dan Johnson:And Russia understands the main, the critical points of the water supply, of the drinking water system, and so on. And again, it's critical elements of our infrastructure, fitting water and electricity. Knowledge is absolutely good, the skills of our personnel and experience. But without the air defense, without another weapon, the ammunition, it's very hard to protect all the territory of Ukraine.
7:59Vadym Skibitsky:Do you think ordinary Ukrainian people are going to feel the impact of that even more this winter than last?
8:05Dan Johnson:Yes, I think yes. Our population understands the situation. Every day we have the wounded and dead civilian population in many regions. And unfortunately, with increasing number of the drones, some missile system, Russian Federation, it's really the threat and challenge and can increase the losses of civilian population in our country.
8:36Vadym Skibitsky:Some people would say then that is the evidence that Ukraine is not winning this war. Hmm.
8:41Dan Johnson:We have not another way for surviving because we're an independent state. It's our territory. It's our land. It's our culture. It's our history. And we must fight to prevent the full occupation of Russian Federation, by Russian Federation, our territory.
9:01Vadym Skibitsky:Do you think you are winning?
9:03Dan Johnson:I think yes. I think yes.
9:05Vadym Skibitsky:But there may be ordinary Ukrainians who feel if they're going to face an even tougher winter, it's going to be even less safe, more people will die. That does not feel like winning.
9:16Dan Johnson:I think no. Our population understand.
9:20Vadym Skibitsky:What do you need to stop those ballistic missiles being launched?
9:24Dan Johnson:First of all, our general staff, Minister of Defense, we will prepare some plans concerning it to stop such activity of Russian Federation. First, concerning the launching position. one of the purpose to destroy such position. Next one is arsenal depots and the logistic roads to this position. And next one, it's a third one concerning the defense industry that involved in the production of ballistic missiles of Russian Federation.
9:52Vadym Skibitsky:But is the problem there a lack of intelligence or a lack of the right weapons to destroy those launch platforms?
9:59Dan Johnson:To be enforcement weapons. weapons. We have enough intel about the plans, about the dislocation, about the movement of such weapons of Russian Federation. It's not a problem, one of the lack of enough weapons from our side.
10:21Vadym Skibitsky:There's been a campaign of long-range drone attacks deep into Russia.
10:25Dan Johnson:One of our approaches concerning this war is our deep strike. We understand that it's not easy to prevent, for example, missile strike or airstrike only in the front line or only in our territory. We should destroy and disrupt, first of all, production weaponry. And that is why one of the main targets, main objects for us is the defense industry. All kinds, missile system, munition, chemical elements for the electronic components in the territory of Russia. And next one, it's of course military facilities, military objects, plus arsenal, airports for munition, and of course logistic system. Because the logistics system is one of the main elements today in the battlefield.
11:22Dan Johnson:Without the supply, without the logistics concerning the ammunition, concerning the weapons, concerning the missiles and others, it's not easy to wage the war. The main defense enterprises, factories and companies in the Russian Federation are situated in the distance more than 570 kilometers from our border, in the deep territory of the Russian Federation. And we try, we do it. I think it was successful.
11:53Vadym Skibitsky:Do you see the evidence that that is having an impact on Russia's military capability? Yes.
Read the full transcript
12:00Dan Johnson:First of all, concerning the military targets, especially, for example, airbase. After our deep strike in the English airbase, a lot of aircraft were deployed to another airbase, for example, in Alenia. It's another region of Russian Federation. Next one concerning the enterprises, defense enterprises, especially concerning the chemical production. Next one, electronic components for many weaponry in Russian Federation. And of course, next one, logistic system, including in some case, wild berries, for example. Why? Because it's one of the elements of the logistic system of Russian Federation to wage the war, including, for example, through wild berries.
12:46Dan Johnson:with some military equipment, military components, and other elements that Russian Federation uses for war.
12:55Vadym Skibitsky:But that also has an impact on Russian civilians. Some have been killed in those factories and warehouses, and ordinary Russians have their deliveries disrupted.
13:06Dan Johnson:Are you content with that? But in many cases, in comparison with Ukraine, it's another case. Many of them, for example, we absolutely, we have real documents, we have real evidence that due to Russian electronic warfare, due to Russian air defense system, due to some technical problems with Russian equipment, many of them killed by Russian weapons.
13:32Vadym Skibitsky:But Ukraine has deliberately targeted the warehouses of warbaries, repeatedly.
13:37Dan Johnson:First of all, we try to absolutely, during our process of targeting, we absolutely understand where is the military object, where is the civilian object, and we try to prevent such strike in the residential area and in other areas that can have some dangerous or some threat for civilian population.
13:58Vadym Skibitsky:But Ukraine has killed Russian civilians. Do you see the possibility that that, in Russia's eyes, justifies more attacks to kill Ukrainian civilians?
14:08Dan Johnson:No, it's not dependent on this. But for another reason of this, the Russian population understand that today it's not simple, special military operation. It's a real war. But only in this year, the Kremlin said we had the war with Ukraine before this only special military operation. Will those deep strikes continue? Unfortunately. Even if more Russian civilians are killed? First of all, I said we must destroy and disrupt the main elements of the wage of war of Russian Federation, not civilian people. If you ask me about the casualties of civilian population in Russia, it's not our targets. Believe me.
14:53Dan Johnson:We speak with our NATO partners with the same language concerning the targeting process, concerning the prevent the losses or some maybe casualties for civilian population.
15:06Vadym Skibitsky:But currently, Ukraine has a huge amount of international support and goodwill. Don't you accept that could be at risk if you are seen to be hitting civilian targets? It's not our goal to strike the civilian targets. You're firing drones at oil refineries and warehouses. Ordinary Russians are dying.
15:25Dan Johnson:Especially, especially most of the such huge refinery stations, Wildberries, it's not in the residential area in the Russian Federation. as, for example, Russian Federation strike Kyiv, for example, hire Kyiv, Odessa, for example, and said it's military targets, but it's really not military targets. For our case, it's another situation, absolutely.
15:57Vadym Skibitsky:You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service.
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17:17Vadym Skibitsky:Once agreed, our meeting was delayed a few times because the Major General was out of Kiev dealing with more important events. There was also nervousness about security. The location changed and we were eventually directed to an anonymous apartment block in a Kiev suburb which the intelligence service appeared to be using as a temporary location, perhaps just for a few days. A small outstation, certainly not headquarters. Of course, a spy chief's never going to give up all his secrets, and he was very guarded on certain issues and sensitive on others. He made clear after we finished recording that he felt I asked too many questions about the deaths of Russian civilians.
17:53Vadym Skibitsky:But he did want to get some messages across about the success he believes Ukraine is having with its long-range drone attacks, but also the level of pain he understands Russia is planning to inflict on Ukrainians during the forthcoming winter. Okay, let's return to my conversation with Vadim Skibitsky. You were part of peace negotiations last year. Do you think there's any hope for that anytime soon?
18:18Dan Johnson:Unfortunately, we continue to have some line of communication, but the demands of Russian preparation today is the same, concerning the withdrawal of our troops from Donetsk and Donetsk and other demands, including NATO, including a lot of issues that we cannot agree with Russian authorities.
18:42Vadym Skibitsky:You spoke recently about the Kremlin fearing internal destabilization and the regime being undermined there. Do you see any evidence of that happening?
18:51Dan Johnson:First of all, today Russia is in the process of preparation for election process, for election for the parliament of Russian Federation, for the local authorities. And what is the main problem for Russian Federation? It's stability. Stability in all regions of Russian Federation. That is why before this they tried to prevent, to stop such activities that will influence on the mind of the population. Including, for example, mobilization process. Next one concerning the control of the internet. Next one, of course, the influence of our deep strike. It's really influence on the population of the Russian Federation.
19:34Dan Johnson:Because the understanding concerning the air defense system of the Russian Federation. concerning the capability of Russian authority to prevent, to protect some areas. And, of course, another problem today for Russian Federation is the level of life of population. Because for many people in Russian Federation today, the first point is the level of life, is the prosperity.
20:00Vadym Skibitsky:Do you see evidence that those deep strikes are increasing opposition to the Kremlin, not increasing its support?
20:09Dan Johnson:It's not opposition today, but it's understanding the result of this war. And it's really influence on the many positions of the population of Russian Federation.
20:21Vadym Skibitsky:Let's talk about North Korea's contribution to Russia's military. I think President Zelensky said as many as 50 ,000 North Korean soldiers.
20:31Dan Johnson:First of all, it's not the first time North Korea supports the Russian Federation. For example, in 2024-2025, 40 % of munitions that Russian Federation used in the battlefield from North Korea. Next one is ballistic missile N-23. The first portion of such missile from North Korea was near 150 ballistic missiles. Today we understand the plans of Russian Federation North Korea to deploy again such missile system with launches in the territory of Russian Federation for strike, for launch against our territory. And, of course, the real presence of the regular troops of North Korea in the territory.
21:24Dan Johnson:And first time, North Korea deployed at least 11 ,000 military men from regular units of North Korea in Kurskobos for the combat activity. Today, according to our information, it's possible from 30 ,000 to 50 ,000 North Korean soldiers can be deployed in the territory of Russian Federation. We are really carefully monitoring such a situation. First of all, its presence, the foreigners in the territory of Russia and support Russia in the war. And plus, it's very important for North Korea. It's a real combat experience in the modern war in the world. North Korea can improve the technology, improve these missiles.
22:13Dan Johnson:First of all, because it's experience not in the peaceful time. It's real experience and engagement and combat engagement in real war.
22:24Vadym Skibitsky:Do you think those North Korean soldiers could be deployed on Ukrainian territory?
22:29Dan Johnson:We have some plans, some documents, plans of Russian Federation to deploy these units in our territory. Because what does it mean? It's real involvement in the third country in the war in our territory. What's the current threat from Belarus? Belarus, we understand the possible threat from Belarus. Today, such threat is in the low level. It's present some elements of Russian troops in the territory of Belarus, plus it's common joint centers, Belarus and Russian Federation, including, for example, Air Defense Center. And another center, first of all, for the training, for the study, the equipment, the weapons.
23:13Dan Johnson:Next one, it's really training, exercise with Russian Federation concerning the delivering nuclear elements, nuclear weaponry from the territory of Russia to the territory of Belarus. It's one of the pressure. First of all, the pressure on Europe concerning the possibility to use Belarus for such activity, for such strike.
23:41Vadym Skibitsky:You say Russia may move nuclear weapons onto Belarusian territory. Do you have evidence?
23:46Dan Johnson:First of all, it's exercise. concerning the delivery of such nuclear weapons from the territory of Russia to the territory of Belarus. We had such experience concerning the Crimea Peninsula, when especially in the spring period of time, the Russian Federation during the exercise fulfilled some elements or some issue concerning the delivery of the nuclear weapon from the territory of the Russian Federation to the Crimea Peninsula for the Black Sea Fleet. The same exercise we observed in the territory of Belarus in this year. It really exercised with fulfillment of all elements of delivering from the beginning, from the arsenal for special transportation, for security, and of course for preparation on weaponry with nuclear warheads in the territory of Belarus.
24:44Dan Johnson:Because, for example, in the territory of Belarus, the Russian Federation deployed at least one battalion of Iskander system. Ballistic missiles and Kruis missiles of such system can use a nuclear overhead.
25:02Vadym Skibitsky:How far away would that be as a realistic possibility?
25:05Dan Johnson:It depends on the situation. But it's one of the nuclear blackmail for Russian Federation.
25:17Vadym Skibitsky:Thank you for listening to The Interview. For more compelling conversations, search for The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts. You'll find episodes with journalist Dmitry Muratov, former Sudanese leader Aisha Moussa, and Ukrainian drone commander Robert Brovdy, plus many others. Until next time, bye-bye.
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From the publisher
“We don’t have another way for surviving, because we are an independent state, it's our territory, it's our land, it’s our culture, it’s our history, and we must fight to prevent the full occupation by the Russian Federation our territory.”
Dan Johnson speaks to Vadym Skibitsky, deputy chief of the GUR, Ukraine’s military intelligence service, about the ongoing war with Russia.
Formed shortly after Ukraine declared independence from the Soviet Union in 1991, the GUR is tasked with defending the country at home and abroad through the use of political and military intelligence.
Following Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, the service has played a key role in holding off and pushing back Kyiv’s larger neighbour through activities including intelligence gathering, espionage and sabotage. As the war gears up to enter another harsh winter with no obvious end in sight, both sides continue to look for new ways to break the deadlock.
In this exclusive, wide-ranging interview, Skibitsky discusses Russia’s use of North Korean troops and military hardware in the war. He also talks about Ukraine's latest strategy of deep-range drone strikes thousands of kilometres into Russia, and how its military plans to grind down Moscow. The Interview brings you conversations with people shaping our world, from all over the world. The best interviews from the BBC, including episodes with journalist Dmitry Muratov, former Sudanese leader Aisha Musa, and Ukrainian drone commander Robert Brovdi. You can listen on the BBC World Service on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays at 0800 GMT. Or you can listen to The Interview as a podcast, out three times a week on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts.
Presenter: Dan Johnson Producer: Anastassia Levchenko Editor: Damon Rose
Get in touch with us on email TheInterview@bbc.co.uk and use the hashtag #TheInterviewBBC on social media.
(Image: Vadym Skibitsky. Credit: Vitalii Nosach/Global Images Ukraine via Getty Images)