Vitali Klitschko, Mayor of Kyiv: ‘We're fighting to survive’

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

0:30Find out more at polandyourplacetogrow.com. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm BBC presenter Nick Robinson and this is the interview from the BBC World Service.

1:16The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention. We have never seen a people so united. Do not make that boat crossing. Do not make that journey. Being born in America, feeling American, having people treat me like I'm not. We're more popular than populism. For this interview, I meet the mayor of Kiev, Vitaly Klitschko, via video link from his office. Born behind the Iron Curtain in 1971, he's arguably best known as a former heavyweight boxing world champion, as well as the older brother of fellow heavyweight boxing world champ, Vladimir.

2:00After making his name in the ring during the 1990s and 2000s, Vitaly hung up his gloves following a series of injuries. When his native Ukraine endured political upheaval through the Orange Revolution, when hundreds of thousands took to the streets to protest against Russian electoral interference, Vitaly's attentions turned to the political arena. Following a short stint in the Ukrainian parliament, where he aligned with pro-Europeans, Vitaly was elected mayor of Ukraine's capital, Kyiv, in 2014, after heavily campaigning against corruption. But his greatest challenge in politics, and indeed even greater than becoming a world champion boxer, came when Vladimir Putin ordered the full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine in February 2022.

2:47The main goal of Putin, it's not Donetsk, Lugask or Krim. The main goal and main target heart of this country, the capital of Ukraine. And that's why the Russians sent, we have so much attack to our hometown. The reason to destroy the resistance of Ukrainian to bring the population in depressive mood. Yeah, it's the main goal of Putin to break the wheel to fight. And do you worry that he might succeed? That's why we're working day and night and also here, also the front, to make stability in capital of Ukraine because from stability in the heart of the country and capital depends stability in every region in Ukraine.

3:35And that's why we are responsible not just for our hometown, we're responsible for the whole country.

3:45Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Vitaly Kluchko.

4:11kamikaze drones to our hometown and destroyed life of our citizens. From beginning the war, in our city, killed more than 300 citizens, more than 30 children from ballistic missiles, from explosion, what have our city. I'm talking just about civilians in our hometown. And a lot of damages, almost 2 ,000 apartment buildings was destroyed in our hometown. And it's huge challenges. I'm actually right now almost 12 years mayor of Kiev. I never expect we have so big challenges in this position. We're fighting to survive in our hometown, in our country. and at the same time we're fighting for our future, for our independence.

5:06Fighting to survive now because of a new enemy, because of the cold. I was looking a few days ago, it was below minus 20. I think that is the forecast for next week as well. You've told people to leave the city. Is that what's necessary now? We are responsible for services to the people in our hometown. I want to remind Kiev, biggest city in East Europe, 3.5 million citizens in our hometown. And we're responsible for services. And if Russia destroyed our infrastructure and tried to freezing people, to let people living without electricity, heating, without water, if we will be not available to give the basic services to everyone, I'm asking to our citizens.

5:58If you have friends, relatives somewhere outside of the city where you have basic services, heating, water, please do that. It's not so much pressure to our infrastructure and make our job much easier. How did you feel as mayor of Ukraine's capital city having to advise people to leave? It's not, it's, I give advice temporarily for this cold period of time. And actually, my advice, if you don't have services and you have another option, please use them. But anyway, is the main goal of Russians, of Putin, they have an idea. They don't need us, Ukrainians, they need property, they need territory of Ukraine.

6:53The best dream, we leave somewhere to another country, but we stay, we're fighting, we're fighting for our future. And it's just worth advice to temporarily live in the city for this cold period of time if you don't have services. For a long time, the analysts said that Russia was losing this war because after four years, they have not taken the territory that they want to have. Do you worry that this is a new war, a war of attrition in which they try to persuade the people of Ukraine that it is not worth fighting anymore? Yes, of course. The clear answer from beginning, I not understand where the reason to fighting against civilians.

7:42But the main goal of Putin, it's not Donetsk, Lugansk or Crimea. The main goal and main target heart of this country, the capital of Ukraine. And that's why the Russians sent, we have so much attack to our hometown. The reason to destroy the resistance of Ukrainian to bring the population in depressive mood. Yeah, it's the main goal of Putin to break the wheel to fight. And do you worry that he might succeed? That's why we're working day and night and also here, also the front to make stability in capital of Ukraine, because from stability in the heart of the country and capital depends stability in every region in Ukraine.

8:30And that's why we are responsible not just for our hometown, we're responsible for the whole country. And that's why we're fighting a lot of challenges for us. And we have to show the power and unite our activity to fix every challenge that we have right now. Now, many people know you first and foremost for being a boxer, for being the world heavyweight champion. politics harder or easier than boxing? To be honest, I am not first day in politics. I am already 12 years as mayor of Kiev, of capital of Ukraine. Before I was a little bit naive because I want to build a second Germany or second California from Ukraine, is to make our country part of European family, to make a democratic country, because the main goal of Putin to bring Ukraine back to Russian Empire.

9:32We was in Russia, in Soviet Empire, and we don't want back to USSR. We see our future as part of European family. We're fighting for our future. You grew up, of course, in the Soviet Union. You know what this is like. I know that. I came from a communist family. My father was an Air Force officer in the Soviet army and I was prepared and growing up with idea we have to fighting against Americans against capitalistic system because they want to occupy us to make from us slaves and we truly believe in this propaganda what we listen every day but many years later if perestroika came I have a chance to travel outside of the country and if I come back I have interesting discussion with my father who truly believe on communistic system.

10:28And I told him, listen, father, it's everything what we listen from our media. It's a liar. It's not true. It's life quality. It's in capitalistic world. It's pretty well. The people is happy. They have a lot of services. They have a lot of options. The system is not so bad as we listen years long. I'm interested what made you come back to Ukraine. You had made a fortune as a boxer. Some say$60 billion. You had lived there. You had brought up your children in the United States. You knew Europe well and love, you say, Germany, for example. What made you return to your country? Were you not tempted to say, I'm better off making a new life elsewhere?

11:20It's my homeland. It's my homeland. it's very difficult to explain the feeling. I grew up here. I have Ukrainian mentality. I have a lot of friends. I grew up in this country. This country will be lifelong in my heart. And that's why I feel me comfortable in my hometown, in my home country. And yes, of course, the lives in Germany or United States and Los Angeles was much better. But it's a different feeling. I explain some interesting story. I meet some men. We fly together in the plane. We sit together. They were old men. They spent lifelong in Europe, in Canada, and they fly back to Ukraine.

12:08I was shocked to die. To die because they want to be together with his parents, with relatives, and it's homeland. It's difficult. It's a very sensitive connection. And that's what you fight for now. Now it's almost 20 years, isn't it, since you first fought an election to be mayor of Kiev. You fought a presidential election, or you almost did back in 2014. You stood aside. Do you still think that having elections before peace would be poison for our homeland? And that's what you said in the past. Every election is competition, competition between political parties. In the same time, when we have enemies, where we defend our country to make fight inside the country, it can destroy the country from inside.

13:05And that's why it's a bad idea, not a smart idea to do an election during the war. It's poison for the country. And that's why, first of all, we have to bring the peace back to the country. And just after that, we can talk about election or political ambition. Right now, it's not the right time to talk about that. It's no secret that you and President Zelensky are not friends. What should we talk of you as? Are you rivals? Are you enemies? No, it's we from different parties. and always was not an easy relationship between central government and local government. We have to be united and defend our country to make synergy to fighting against each other.

13:55It's not smart, especially in this difficult situation. You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service.

14:09This advertisement feature is paid and presented by Poland's Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Looking for the perfect place to grow your business? For over 30 years, Poland has been a launchpad for innovation at the heart of Europe, powered by world-class research and ambitious young talent. From bold startups to established powerhouses, Poland offers the momentum, resources and reliability you need to take your business further. Poland, where businesses don't just grow, they're built to last. Find out more at polandyourplacetogrow.com. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed?

14:44In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

15:15Vitaly Klitschko used to be a tour guide to his home city of Kiev. He is now its mayor. I've visited that city only once. I arrived just two days before the full-scale attack launched by Vladimir Putin back in February 2022. He said to me that it was only when you'd seen the city, when you'd witnessed what it was going through, that you really had an idea of what was at stake. That, he says, is very different from seeing it on the TV news, listening to radio or looking at images online or in a newspaper. This is a man who is not comfortable, not comfortable at all with his own president, President Zelensky.

16:02But in this interview, you could sense he was determined not to show too much of that disagreement, to present a united face to the world for Ukraine. For now, at least one day he might be the man who replaces him. OK, let's return to my conversation with Vitaly Klitschko. One difference is that in boxing, you almost always knocked out your opponents and you were never knocked out. isn't the truth that in this war, it's hard to see there being a winner, isn't it? It is hard to see either Ukraine knocking out Putin or Putin knocking out Ukraine. We're actually fighting against Russia, successfully fighting.

16:50Putin, do you remember? I remember everyone in beginning this war, 22. A lot of world experts give to Ukraine in a couple of days, maybe a couple of weeks, to fighting against one of the strongest and biggest army in the world, the Russian army. But we successfully defend our homeland already for years. I want to say thank you very much to everyone who support Ukraine because the support of Ukraine is very important. Alone, it's very difficult to do that, and that's why we're very thankful to support and to help from our partners. Now we get more talks, Mayor Klitschko, talks between Russia and Ukraine and the United States.

17:35Are you hopeful that those talks will produce any result? Is there any point in them? It's not easy to ask the question of, we're talking about the peace. If you go to the street and talking to the people in the street, they're asking to everyone which biggest wish you have. And everyone tells you exactly the same answer. the war we dream of the peace and the war had to be stopped but we're talking about the peace but the peace condition it's very important to have guarantee because Russians take the break for short time and starting the war again the peace guarantee first point the second point we have to save our national interest in our independency in our wish to be the part of European family and also for question of territorial integrity.

18:32We have a lot of questions and this negotiation is... I'm not involved in this negotiation, but it's very important to give the answer, a clear answer for every question what I may... To each of those areas, you want a clear answer. Let me ask you about the most difficult one, which is territory. Steve Wyckoff, who is Donald Trump's envoy, He says we've got it down to one issue, land. There is no compromise, though, is there at the moment? You want to keep Ukrainian land? Putin wants to take it. It's a difficult question to occupy a big part of Ukraine and told this compromise and never accept the territory as part of Ukraine and accept this territory of part of Russia.

19:26My personal point of view is not compromise. We have to talk about that and to find solution between different points of view. I mean, Ukrainian side and Russian side. You might have to accept in the short term that Russia continues to occupy that land. If we're talking about our territorial integrity and to accept it's not more Ukraine, it's Russia, where's the guarantee? The Russians make short break and starting the war again, make next step, occupy more territory. And after that, told the solution to accept the next part of our territory as territory of Ukraine. It's also not secret. Putin never accept Ukraine as independent country.

20:19They told Ukraine was always part of Russia. We don't want back to USSR. We're independent country and we see our future as part of European family. There's a third party in this talks, President Trump and his envoy, Steve Wyckoff. You invited the president to visit you in Kyiv. Does he say that he might come? It will be a very strong signal if Trump comes to Kyiv. The president of the United States in Kyiv, it's a strong signal to Russia. Have you ever talked to him or his team? I talked to a member of a team from Trump about invitation. Yes, of course, we'll be very happy. We will be very happy to see President of the United States in our hometown.

21:09Do you trust him? Many people think the talks in Moscow are not about Ukraine. They're about American property deals and financial deals. We will be ready to do business with the United States. and from business case, from both sides, we have to find the best way for United States, for Ukraine. And why not? Ready to talk about that. But right now, the main question, not about the business, about the peace. Peace not just in Kiev. Peace not just in Ukraine. Because I want to remind, Ukraine was one of the largest countries in Europe And the stability in one of the largest countries in Europe can bring the stability in the whole region.

21:56And that's why this peace, we not just Ukrainian need that. It's whole Europe. It's a question, geopolitical question, not a question just Ukrainian people. Do you think Donald Trump would find it easier to deal with a former professional boxer than a comedian? We know the Shazos and we meet the Shazos before many times. and Donald Trump was in boxing hall as an audience by Taj Mahal in his arena in Atlantic City and we know the shots and in past time. As president, if Donald Trump became the position as president of the United States, we didn't have a chance to talk to him. Vladimir talked to him a couple of times.

22:49Vladimir your brother, we should say, not Vladimir Putin. My brother Vladimir, yeah. Vladimir Klichko. Yeah, just to be clear, that was who met and spoke to Donald Trump alongside you. Did you become friends with Donald Trump then before the war, when you were fighting in the ring? I can say we are friends. We know the Shaz. We talk to Shaz, we meet a couple of times. You still got his phone number? No. Maybe I get him to call you. We'll see what we can do. You've talked passionately about how you want Ukraine to be a European nation. Your first job I was reading was a tour guide in your city in Kyiv when you were just 16 years old.

23:29Imagine a future, 10, 20 years. What do you want your city? What do you want your country to be like when this is all over? To be honest, I use my skills as tour guide when people come into my hometown. Many people come to Kyiv and sometimes afraid, the wild east. And I'm in joy really to present the European city. And everyone actually was surprised how beautiful a city, how peaceful people, friendly people, gas-friendly people living in our hometown. And Kyiv is a unique city. It's a very green city. We have a lot of parks. We have a huge rear. We have a lot of islands. We have a lot of potential to develop our hometown.

24:23And I have a job as mayor of Kiev to change. I enjoy my job to change life. I was last in Kiev in February 2022. I hope to be back in more peaceful times. Perhaps when I return, Mayor Klitschko, you could be my tour guide. I promise I will be happy to do that.

24:47Thank you for listening to The Interview. For more compelling conversations, search for The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts. You'll find episodes from Colombia's president, Gustav Petro, free speech campaigner, Maria Ressa, and the UK's ambassador to Russia, Nigel Casey, and many, many more. Until the next time, goodbye for now.

25:36Thank you.

25:43Find out more at polandyourplacetogrow.com.

26:13What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.