Volodymyr Zelensky, President of Ukraine: We will not lose this war

0:00Volodymyr Zelensky:This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Available now on the documentary from the BBC World Service, Sheila Coronel tells the story of how the Philippines' 1986 revolution is being rewritten. A million protesters faced down tanks in Manila and toppled a dictator. But 40 years on, the Marcos family are back in power. How did this happen? Rewriting a Revolution. Listen now by searching for BBC The Documentary wherever you get your BBC podcasts. I've spent the last three decades trying to better understand money across the boardroom, the newsroom and the trading floor. That's longer than most podcast hosts have been alive.

0:44Volodymyr Zelensky:But even though I've got questions, join me, Merrin's Upset Web, every week for my show Merrin Talks Money from Bloomberg Podcasts, where I have in-depth conversations with fund managers, strategists and experts about how markets really work. And join me for a separate episode where I answer listener questions and how to make those markets work for you. Follow Merrin Talks Money on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. Hello, I'm Jeremy Bowen, the BBC's international editor, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world.

1:25Volodymyr Zelensky:If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention. We have never seen a people so united. Do not make that boat crossing. Do not make that journey. Being born in America, feeling American, having people treat me like I'm not.

1:40Jeremy Bowen:We're more popular than populism.

1:44Volodymyr Zelensky:For this interview, I met the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelensky, at the heavily guarded government building in the capital, Kiev. in february of 2022 russia invaded ukraine president putin doesn't believe there should be an independent ukrainian state but the resistance president putin's troops met was far stronger than they expected and four years on the war continues in ukraine official figures put the number of ukraine soldiers killed at 55 000 but that's an underestimate with many more missing. The death toll on the Russian side is thought to be much higher, although it's hard to find accurate information.

2:30Volodymyr Zelensky:Attempts to reach some kind of a ceasefire or peace deal have so far not worked. And around a fifth of Ukrainian territory is in the hands of the Russians. But as you'll hear, President Zelensky remains defiant. Ukraine, he tells me, is on the front line of World War III.

2:50Jeremy Bowen:We have different views regarding the Third World War. I believe that Putin has already started it. The question is how much territory he will be able to seize and how to stop him, because Russia wants to impose on the world a different way of life and change the lives people have chosen for themselves. Therefore, I believe and have long believed that Putin has already began this war, and we are preventing it from becoming a broad, full-scale Third World War, today where the outposts stop in Putin.

3:28Volodymyr Zelensky:Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Volodymyr Zelensky. Mr President, thanks very much for talking to us. Much appreciated. Some people, I think including President Trump, say Ukraine cannot win this war. Are they correct? Where are you now?

3:48Jeremy Bowen:Today you're in Kiev. You're in the capital of our homeland. You're in Ukraine. I'm very grateful for this. If you go outside, you will see that life goes on. It is difficult. There are strikes, there are air raid alerts, there are bomb shelters, but life goes on. People work, children go to school. It's not simple at all. Of course, the war is war. This terrible choice was not ours. Nevertheless, we have life. That means we have a state and we have independence. Will we lose? Of course not. We are fighting for Ukraine's independence. And today, we are an independent Ukraine. It is very hard for us.

4:23Jeremy Bowen:We are under pressure from an army and a state larger than ours. But we stand and fight for survival. We are an independent state, so we will definitely not lose this war.

4:34Volodymyr Zelensky:So if you can win this war, and I know you've said that, what does victory look like?

4:44Jeremy Bowen:I have spoken about this before and think about it very often. Preserving the sovereignty and independence of our state, Ukraine's choice to be free, independent and European, this is victory for the majority, I'm sure. And for many people, victory means bringing home their relatives and loved ones who are today in prisons, all prisoners of war, bringing many people back to their homes, that is victory. Most people understand that returning to life as it was before the war is victory. Preserving our history, the graves of our loved ones, returning and seeing relatives again, it is all encompassing.

5:20Jeremy Bowen:Today we speak about stopping this war. I believe that stopping Putin today and preventing him from occupying Ukraine is a victory for the whole world, because Putin will not stop at Ukraine.

5:32Volodymyr Zelensky:You're not saying that victory means getting all the land back, are you?

5:41Jeremy Bowen:In any case, we will do it. That is absolutely clear. It is only a matter of time. To do it today would mean losing a huge number of people, millions of people, because the Russian army is large and we understand the cost of such steps. You would not have enough people, you would be losing them. And what is land without people? Honestly, nothing. And you also do not have a sufficient amount of weapons. That depends not only on us, but on our partners. As of today, this is not available, but returning to the borders of 1991 is, without a doubt, not even a victory. It is a victory of justice. Ukraine's victory is the preservation of our independence, and a victory of justice for the whole world is the return of all our lands.

6:26Volodymyr Zelensky:If you don't get a ceasefire this year, how long can you keep on fighting the war?

6:33Jeremy Bowen:First of all, we must fight to achieve a ceasefire. And even when everyone says it's impossible, we still have to do everything to move closer to diplomacy. I believe that is the right approach. Because no matter what comparisons are made or what anyone says, the moment a ceasefire takes effect, human losses decrease from that point on, first and foremost. At the same time, our army stands and defends our land and our lives, and it will continue to stand as long as necessary. They are the ones on whom our independence depends.

7:06Volodymyr Zelensky:Because, you know, the argument that people make is that you don't have enough troops, that you are dependent on foreigners for weapons, and therefore you are actually in a vulnerable position. And sometimes President Trump has exploited that.

7:24Jeremy Bowen:We are vulnerable in this position, that is true. We are in a difficult situation. We do not have our own air defence production yet. This has been the case with many types of weapons, and it keeps reoccurring. Either we found substitutes, we had no navy, we created naval drones. We did not have enough artillery, we developed our FPV drones and other systems we use on the front. We had no missiles, no long-range capabilities. We began building long-range drones and started developing missiles. Today the issue is air defence. This is the most difficult problem. protecting the sky even partially.

8:00Jeremy Bowen:When you ask how Ukraine can become stronger in this war, the answer is clear. Close the sky. If civilians are protected, we have a covered back. People work, children go to school, the economy functions, there is money, there are taxes that then go to the front. In this way, we strengthen the army. Unfortunately, this is not yet in place.

8:23Volodymyr Zelensky:When Joe Biden was U.S. president, he was worried about Putin's nuclear threats, nuclear saber rattling, fear of World War III. Does Trump think the same way?

8:40Jeremy Bowen:We have different views regarding the Third World War. I believe that Putin has already started it. The question is how much territory he will be able to seize and how to stop him, because Russia wants to impose on the world a different way of life and change the lives people have chosen for themselves. Therefore, I believe and have long believed that Putin has already began this war and we are preventing it from becoming a broad, full-scale Third World War. Today, we're the outposts stopping Putin. And Biden, he feared that if we carried out long-range strikes, Putin might open the possibility of nuclear attacks, as you mentioned.

9:18Jeremy Bowen:And does President Trump think about this? I don't know. I don't think their views differ much. And in any case, it does not depend only on the institution of the president. It depends on the entire system. In my view, the US system is aimed at avoiding escalation in this war, less escalation. And what does less escalation mean? First of all, in some ways, slowing Ukraine down. Because I believe their policy of reduced escalation is meant to reduce nuclear threats. But in my opinion, that does not actually determine anything. I believe the use of nuclear weapons depends solely on Putin. And sometimes I think messages are conveyed to him by China in the Middle East.

9:59Jeremy Bowen:It depends on such partner relationships.

10:05Volodymyr Zelensky:Let's talk a little bit about the ceasefire talks which are going on. You have said that both the United States and Russia have told you that the way to get a ceasefire by the summer is for you, Ukraine, to give up the 20 % of Donetsk that you still have, those so-called fortress cities. Isn't that a reasonable thing to do? They're both asking for it.

10:31Jeremy Bowen:Russia, I don't know when. They told America that Ukraine must withdraw from the territory of Donbass, essentially what you said, to give up 20 % of the East. But I see this differently. I don't look at it simply as land or territory. I see it as abandoning, weakening our positions, abandoning hundreds of thousands of our people who live there. And I am sure that this withdrawal would divide our society. It would also place a burden on the military and on strengthening our state's defensive line in the east, where the strongest Russian groupings are. You withdraw from these lines to others, so who bears the burden?

11:08Jeremy Bowen:First of all, the military. Next, civilians. What will happen to the people who are there today? Slavyansk and Kramatorsk are Ukrainian cities. If our army withdraws, whose cities will they be? I am certain that no matter what Russia promises, it will do everything to ensure a Russian flag flies there. So I do not see this simply as give up 20%. What does give up mean? Why shouldn't Russia return our lands instead? From a pragmatic perspective, it may seem like an easier option. Simpler, it would push us back somewhat.

11:43Volodymyr Zelensky:good price to pay, if that satisfies President Putin? Do you think it would satisfy him?

11:52Jeremy Bowen:For a while, for some time, it would probably satisfy him. He himself needs time, as you know, to patch up all the wounds and gaps. His army is wounded, not fully trained. He recruits 40 ,000, 43 ,000, 45 ,000 contract soldiers a month. All of this requires money. He needs to restore certain parts of the economy, with the war paused, he would certainly work to have some sanctions lifted. That would boost his economy and his defense infrastructure, allowing him to increase both the quantity and the quality of his weapons. Many components are currently under sanctions and do not reach him. In my opinion, he could recover in a couple of years, no more.

12:31Jeremy Bowen:Where would he go next? We don't know. But that he would want to continue is a fact. Will security guarantees be strong enough for Ukraine to deter Putin's aggression.

12:46Volodymyr Zelensky:You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service.

12:54Volodymyr Zelensky:Available now on the documentary from the BBC World Service, Sheila Coronel tells the story of how the Philippines' 1986 revolution is being rewritten. A million protesters faced down tanks in Manila and toppled a dictator. But 40 years on, the Marcos family are back in power. How did this happen? Rewriting a revolution. Listen now by searching for BBC The Documentary wherever you get your BBC podcasts. This is not the future we were promised. Like, how about that for a tagline for the show? From the BBC, this is The Interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world.

13:38Jeremy Bowen:This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews.

13:42Volodymyr Zelensky:It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your everyday life. And all the bizarre ways people are using the internet.

13:51Jeremy Bowen:Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

14:00Volodymyr Zelensky:i've been talking to the ukrainian president volodymyr zelensky i was really struck by the man's energy and resilience he has a really hard job but he seems to be in a presidential sense full of beans and full of appetite as well to continue facing the challenges the very real challenges that Ukraine has to deal with. Okay, let's return to that conversation with President Zelensky. Why do you think it is that President Trump seems to put a lot more pressure on you than he puts on President Putin? He said the other day, Ukraine better get back to that table very quickly.

14:43Jeremy Bowen:We're ready for negotiations at the leaders level with Trump and with Putin. I'm convinced that Putin needs to be pressured. He's not ready yet to sit down and talk at the leader's level. I don't know why. I do not need reasons why he's not sitting down. For us, it is far more important to find ways to force Putin to end the war. We need to sit down and reach an agreement. If we sit down and cannot agree, that is a serious challenge. Guarantees are given by leaders. In the case of Ukraine, this is more about institutions because we have a clear democracy and it is absolutely clear that presidents, governments and parliament will change institutionally.

15:23Jeremy Bowen:In Russia, it is not like that. In Russia, there is one leader, so an agreement is needed that their leader personally signs. Then there is a chance that for some period, possibly a long one, again, depending on strong American sanctions, there will be no war.

15:41Volodymyr Zelensky:But there aren't going to be stronger American sanctions, are there? Because there's already a lot of talk, and you've spoken about this yourself, that the Americans in the background are getting deals ready to be done after a ceasefire when they can bring Russia back in from the cold and that Trump is looking at billions of dollars of profit potentially for the states as well as perhaps other people's businesses.

16:09Jeremy Bowen:It is difficult for me to speak about the economic matters that Americans are discussing with the Russians. Today Trump, President Trump, and his team have proposed sanctions they have been working on, and they look strong. There are also other elements, a clear understanding of how partners would respond in the event of renewed aggression. This is what we want for our society, because our society has experienced aggression, and people fear a recurrence of war. Compared to other security guarantees, this one looks sufficiently strong. For now, the groundwork is quite solid. That is what I want to say.