Winnie Byanyima, head of UNAids: I am somebody who fights for social justice and gender equality

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1:09Winnie Byanyima:Just go to linkedin.com slash broadcast. That's linkedin.com slash broadcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hello, I'm Catherine Biarahanga, BBC correspondent and presenter. And this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention. We have never seen a people so united. Do not make that boat crossing. Do not make that journey. Being born in America, feeling American. Having people treat me like I'm not. We're more popular than populism. For this interview, I met Winnie Biannima, head of UNAIDS, on the line from the UN headquarters in New York.

2:00Winnie Byanyima:She has devoted her life to advancing human rights and equality, first in her home country Uganda and then on the global stage. An engineer by training, she became a diplomat and politician before moving into humanitarian work. Byanyama was part of the movement that overthrew Milton Obote and other military regimes in Uganda. And you're going to hear why she thinks Uganda is backsliding on democracy and about her husband, Dr. Kiza Besije, who's in a Ugandan jail awaiting trial for treason. Spearheading the global fight against HIV AIDS, she talks about funding cuts and the restrictions now commonly placed on how aid money is spent.

2:46Winnie Byanyima:And as another war adds to global humanitarian challenges, we hear her disappointment and hope for the United Nations organization that she represents.

2:58Catherine Byaruhanga:Look at the war that has broken out in the Middle East. I think I read somewhere that it's costing$1 billion a day. And yet you need only a couple of hundreds of millions to deliver humanitarian assistance and rescue people in crisis contexts. That gap is wide. There's no funding to save lives, but there's funding to kill more people. However, we don't give up. We continue speaking up. We continue mobilizing for the change that's needed. But we need to have the big powers strongly behind a reform. And that's what is lacking. But it will come.

3:46Winnie Byanyima:Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Winnie Byanyama.

3:52Catherine Byaruhanga:His health is continuously undermined by the conditions of prison. He lives in squalid conditions and he lives in solitary confinement, which also has an impact on his mental health.

4:07Winnie Byanyima:He's been on remand in prison for more than a year and a half. What is your hope that his case will be resolved, will be concluded in the immediate future?

4:20Catherine Byaruhanga:Concluded, I suppose it will be. What is my concern is that it will not be fairly concluded. Everything about this case has been in breach of the laws of Uganda, starting with how he was abducted, kidnapped from Kenya, bundled in a car and taken across the border at night, dumped in a military jail, dragged before a military court. We had to fight to the Supreme Court, take it to the Supreme Court to ask for a ruling. And we got the ruling that as a civilian, he shouldn't be in a military court. Then they wouldn't release him, even though the Supreme Court had announced that he should not be there.

5:05Catherine Byaruhanga:He had to go on hunger strike. And since then, it's a year and four months, he was denied bail four times, even though the law is clear. If you've been in jail for six months and your case has not even started being heard, you have a right to bail. They denied it to him. And he's framed. We have now seen the evidence they are bringing. It's fabricated. He's being framed. So we expect the judge to continue acting illegally, but we will also use the court process to expose the sham that it is.

5:42Winnie Byanyima:To put the government's side in this case, we haven't heard the totality of this case in court. It's just been the preliminary stages up until now. You mentioned some of the evidence that brought forward, they do stand by that evidence. And they do say that he was trying to illegally overthrow the government of President Museveni. But just to take this back for a moment to your political journey, your husband's political journey, and that of President Museveni, you both fought together on the same side to remove the government of Milton or Botte in the 80s you then came to power at this point where you have all known each other how does it feel that you and your husband now find yourself in this position that you're having to challenge

6:37Catherine Byaruhanga:the government of president Museveni well we are we did work together but we fell out with him because as time went on he distanced himself from the mission of the revolution from the revolutionary movement itself. And we're not the only ones. Literally everyone whom we were with in that revolution has walked away, disagreed, or just retired and kept quiet. And he's now with people whom I could say are cynical, are there because they benefit financially in the government, but who outside speak critically of the government that they serve. So it's now family rule. It's surrounded by his family.

7:27Catherine Byaruhanga:It's very much what we went out to fight against. It's been a tour of making progress on the democratic front or the human rights front and now walking backwards on democracy and human rights. It's a sad story, but such are struggles. It's two steps forward and one step backwards.

7:49Winnie Byanyima:I want to bring you to the work that you do at UNAIDS. You've made some statements since the return of President Donald Trump to power. Of course, there was a freeze in funding for UNAIDS when Doge and Elon Musk was cutting back foreign aid budgets in the United States. What has been the impact of the second Trump presidency on your work at UNAIDS?

8:18Catherine Byaruhanga:Yes, in February last year, the American government suspended its foreign assistance. And for us in our field of HIV and AIDS and global health broadly, that was a major disruption. because for HIV and AIDS, the countries that have the highest burden of this disease are low-income countries of sub-Saharan Africa, also some countries in Asia and Latin America, but not to the same degree. These countries were depending, still depend very much on foreign assistance to launch strong responses against the disease, and they had been doing well. American government is the biggest donor, was actually putting down 73 % of the funding for HIV and AIDS globally.

9:15Catherine Byaruhanga:73 % of total assistance came from one government. That itself wasn't right. Doesn't reflect fair burden sharing amongst the rich governments that support the developing countries. So with that disruption, we saw clinics closing, outreach stopping, women and girls clinics shutting down, special clinics for LGBTQ people closing. It was serious. But governments tried to respond to fill the gap. It wasn't easy. But the American administration, within two weeks, realized that this was severe disruption, going to cost many lives. They restored some of the funding. And now by November, they came up with a new global health strategy.

10:08Catherine Byaruhanga:With this strategy, they restored significant funding towards HIV AIDS again. So today, as I speak, governments are signing new agreements with the American administration, restoring funding for up to five years to support these governments. But this funding now is conditioned. First, it's conditioned to those governments that are recipients of the aid to also put down their own resources increasingly so that within five years, there is an exit strategy for the United States. That's positive. Our governments need to progressively integrate the HIV response and pay for it themselves. So that's good.

10:57Catherine Byaruhanga:And we are there to support these governments to walk that tough journey. But secondly, we are also seeing some conditions that might not be good for the HIV response. But I can't comment in detail about them because these agreements are government to government and we have not been given sight of them.

11:19Winnie Byanyima:I'll give you some examples. So Zimbabwe has backed out of its negotiations on a bilateral health memorandum of understanding because it's raised questions around the sharing of health data. Zimbabwe claimed that access to citizens' health data was demanded as part of the agreement. A court in Kenya has suspended its agreement. And in the case of Zambia, there reports that HIV assistance has been linked to a critical minerals agreement between the US and Zambia. I remember reading your statement when these agreements were first enacted. You said, I thank President Trump and the US Congress for their continued commitment to HIV and global health, life-saving support for millions of people.

12:05Winnie Byanyima:Do you still stand by this considering those major concerns that have been raised by governments and campaigners, even in the HIV AIDS field?

12:14Catherine Byaruhanga:Well, first of all, I do not know enough about the memorandums of understanding being signed, but 28 countries have already signed them. Some are expressing reservations and are still in negotiations about them. So I'm not in a position to comment on what is right and wrong in these MOUs. However, I can say that if an agreement on health is being conditioned to critical minerals, that I would say is unfortunate because people's lives should not be conditioned to other factors such as trading in minerals and so on. However, again, what I know is that the administration has come out with what is called promoting human flourishing in foreign assistance policy.

13:11Catherine Byaruhanga:This policy has three conditions that are attached to all funding from the U.S. government. One is a condition not to use the funding for abortion. Second is restrictions on gender, gender equality. And third, a restriction on policies on diversity, equity and inclusion. These restrictions can interfere or undermine our efforts to fight HIV AIDS because all the evidence we have, We have evidence to show that human rights have to be central in a good response and effective response. Without respecting, protecting the human rights of everybody, including LGBTQ people, you cannot achieve your goal to end AIDS as a public health threat.

14:07Catherine Byaruhanga:So we have also beneficiaries of a generous grant from the U.S. government for our work. We have put in an application for a waiver. We have asked that this policy, which is an American policy, can apply to their funding, but not to the funding we get from other donors who are willing to fund human rights work. Because we must continue doing the human rights work if we are to succeed against HIV AIDS. And we are waiting to hear back about this waiver.

14:43Winnie Byanyima:I need to ask you this because you spent decades championing women's rights, the rights of sexual minorities around the world. You're now in a position where you disagree with elements of this Trump policy when it comes to health provisions and the restrictions that you mentioned there. Do you feel your hands are tied now that you can't speak out as much as you would have in the past? And now you have to support memorandums that essentially cut out UNAIDS out of the global response in some parts of the world to HIV and AIDS. Not at all.

15:22Catherine Byaruhanga:We live in a complex world, a challenging world. I am somebody who fights for social justice and gender equality, and I continue to do so. It may be a tougher environment, but I do not change my position. I don't alter it at all. Look, we work in Uganda, where just last year, the law, anti-homosexuality law, was revised to make it harsher. We didn't leave. We stayed there and we're still working. We went to court supporting a challenge on this law. We were, as UNAs, we were friends of the court and accompanied the petition. So we continue to do our work even in the hardest of circumstances. The restrictions, the new restrictions by the American government are not one of them are new after all.

16:16Catherine Byaruhanga:I mean, we have worked with the American administration with a restriction on abortion, but we still are able to work with girls and young women on sexual and reproductive health and rights. but we find our way around the restriction and we carry on our work. It's not a perfect world, it never will be, but we make progress bit by bit. This is a major setback, no doubt, but it doesn't discourage me, it doesn't alter our position. If you look at our website, you're going to see that we have altered nothing.

16:56Winnie Byanyima:You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service.

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17:32Winnie Byanyima:Hi, this is Alex Kantrowitz. I'm the host of Big Technology Podcast, a longtime reporter and an on-air contributor to CNBC. And if you're like me, you're trying to figure out how artificial intelligence is changing the business world and our lives. So each week on Big Technology, I bring on key actors from companies building AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it. asking where this is all going. They come from places like NVIDIA, Microsoft, Amazon, and plenty more. So if you want to be smart with your wallet, your career choices, in meetings with your colleagues and at dinner parties, listen to Big Technology Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

18:10Winnie Byanyima:Winnie Biannumal was at the UN in New York when I spoke to her from her office with the Manhattan skyline in the background. She's a busy woman committed to her work that takes her around the world. So with her husband in a Ugandan jail and in poor health, it would be understandable if she seemed stressed or impatient with journalists. On the contrary, she dealt with my questions in a considered way and didn't mind at all that I started the interview talking about some quite personal issues. OK, let's return to my conversation with Winnie Byanyama. Do you feel at this point that the tide has fundamentally changed against the UN?

18:51Winnie Byanyima:Because in the world in which we live, in which the global order is shifting dramatically, the US is pulling back, as it is in terms of the UN's work when it comes to HIV and AIDS. Do you feel that we've gotten to a point, and a lot of people are raising these questions, about the role of the UN specifically, and whether it's become a toothless organisation?

19:14Catherine Byaruhanga:The United Nations was born out of the ashes of the Second World War. Its rules, its systems, its institutions still reflect that reality 80 years on. It's true that we are paralyzed. The multilateral system is paralyzed, but the multilateral system is needed. We need, we will always need a rules-based world. We cannot be in a world that is with no rules, where the powerful can do what they want and there's no accountability. So there is a need for serious political reforms at the United Nations, in all the institutions of malvolatism. We need a momentum for change. And we need the countries that are the most powerful, the richest, the ones with the weapons, the ones with the strongest political voice to be willing to embrace change.

20:20Catherine Byaruhanga:But today we see that those who are powerful, who won the Second World War, are still unwilling to lead a change. So there is a need for change. And without change, the world is continuing. We are failing to address the huge, the biggest global challenges, the climate catastrophe. It's like watching a train wreck. We are in that situation, a crisis of inequality, a crisis of conflicts, conflicts that are wreaking havoc and we're losing millions of lives and we cannot solve those conflicts because we are paralysed.

21:04Winnie Byanyima:And how disappointing is it for you that the UN cannot lead that drive for change, cannot lead that push to resolve wars? The UN just isn't the focus for people who are calling for conflicts to come to an end, as you say, for there to be policies that champion the climate. So how disappointing is it for you?

21:29Catherine Byaruhanga:Of course, it's very disappointing. Look at the war that has broken out in the Middle East. I think I read somewhere that it's costing$1 billion a day, and yet you need only a couple of hundreds of millions to deliver humanitarian assistance and rescue people in crisis contexts. That gap is wide. There's no funding to save lives, but there's funding to kill more people. However, we don't give up. We continue speaking up. We continue mobilizing for the change that's needed to have, say, a security council that has the legitimacy, the credibility and the ability to resolve conflicts. But we need to have the big powers strongly behind a reform.

22:22Catherine Byaruhanga:And that's what is lacking, but it will come.

22:26Winnie Byanyima:Where does reform come from? Because we're seeing the US Western countries pull back their funding for global institutions. China is increasingly becoming more vocal. Perhaps the Gulf countries, there's been a long discussion about the global south playing a bigger role on the international stage. Where do you see transformation coming from?

22:49Catherine Byaruhanga:As the trust and the faith in the United Nations has eroded, as more countries have become powerful, emerging powers and feeling that power is not distributed fairly within the United Nations, we start to see other multilateral platforms growing. We saw, for example, during the international financial crisis, the creation of G20. We have a whole set of institutions in global health that are outside the United Nations, like the Global Fund. And then we also have the emergence of regional institutions like the African Union. So we can see that change is happening, but it is not the change we want in the United Nations, the global institutions that work for all people.

23:44Catherine Byaruhanga:And I think the change in the United Nations is going to happen bit by bit. And that's why leadership is important. Always, always let me tell you, change has been led by those who are disadvantaged by the status quo. So we can see the whole of the 20th century was a century where women's rights movements shaped global institutions, fought for their rights. workers fought for their rights and you saw the creation of institutions for workers' rights. So we're going to see, again, that those who are outside the countries of the South, whose voices muted in the international decision-making, global decision, will lead the change.