Yurii Tokar: Russia deployed Kenyans to death zone

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

0:29CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that. Bull spend. Now you can invest in what looks good to your CFO. LinkedIn ads generates the highest ROAS of all major ad networks. You'll reach the right buyers because you can target by company, industry, job title, and more. So cut the bull spend. Advertise on LinkedIn, the network that works for you. Spend$250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a 250 credit for the next one. Just go to linkedin.com slash broadcast. That's linkedin.com slash broadcast. Terms and conditions apply. Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab, is a show about the psychology and economics behind our decisions.

1:17Join host Katie Milkman, an award-winning behavioral scientist and author of the bestselling book, How to Change, as she shares true stories from Nobel laureates, authors, athletes and everyday people about why we make the choices we do and how to make better ones to help avoid costly mistakes. Listen to choiceology at schwab.com slash podcast or wherever you listen.

1:42Hello, I'm Wahiga Mwaura, presenter of Focus on Africa, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service, the best conversations coming out of the BBC, people shaping our world from all over the world. If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention. We have never seen a people so united. Do not make that boat crossing. Do not make that journey. Being born in America, feeling American, having people treat me like I'm not. We're more popular than populism. For this interview, I met with Ukraine's ambassador to Kenya, Yuri Toka. He claimed that Russia deliberately deployed many conscripted Kenyans to the front line shortly before Kenya's foreign minister visited Moscow with the aim of halting such recruitment of Kenyans to the Russia-Ukraine war.

2:35He said the claim is based on information from a Ukrainian-backed project that is encouraging soldiers to desert the Russian army. The Russian embassy in Kenya did not immediately respond to the BBC's request for comment. It has previously denied any government involvement in the illegal recruitment of Kenyan citizens. A representative of Kenya's Ministry of Foreign Affairs told the BBC that the government is not aware of such allegations and treats them as possible rumors and propaganda. Kenya's foreign minister recently told a parliamentary committee that they are working to ensure the safety of nationals and to prevent further illegal recruitment.

3:15But Ambassador Tokar claims that Kenyans are being treated as expendable. So they were sent to the front line, to the most dangerous parts of the front line, to the most dangerous places, with aim to do the job and to disappear.

3:34Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Ambassador Yuri Toka in a conversation I recorded last month. From where you sit here on the African continent, what impact do you think these conflicts have had here? The prices for food all over the world had grown significantly, and it again influenced people in Africa. How much worse might it get if these wars continue? What are your predictions? It's hard to predict. It's not a good thing. So let me focus more on Ukraine. So we live life with a focus on war, which is happening every day, which is bringing victims, civilian victims, children, women, every day.

4:23And we live with that, and we live with aim to initiate the end of the war as soon as possible. But again, it's not for the price of our capitulation. We want the war to be ended fairly and with consequences to the aggressor who broke the international law. I mean, you must have followed developments recently in Moscow. A meeting was held between Kenya's minister, Musalya Mudavadi, and Russian foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov. When they came out of that meeting, Kenya announced that it had agreed with Russia that they would no longer recruit Kenyans, or Kenyans would no longer be eligible to fight in that war with Ukraine.

5:03What did you make of that meeting and the developments thereafter? First of all, we are very appreciative to the Kenyan government that it pays attention to these very important issues because we are very concerned to see Kenyan friends, Kenyan people on the front line. They were recruited by the Russian Federation in the war of aggression and that war of aggression which are leading to hostilities in Ukraine. Even though the Russian Federation denied that they directly recruit, a lot of those soldiers are recruited by third parties. Well, the Russian Federation during that visit mentioned different things.

5:48They mentioned that they take only voluntarily. But we see hundreds of publications in Kenyan press that the people were lured, that people were coerced with an aim to join the Russian army. Secondly, it was published by Ukrainian media that at the time of the visit of Moudavadi, Russians collected all Kenyans and did everything for them to go to the front line, to go to the death zone with aim to neutralize them, to have no Kenyans in the army, which is very painful to see. But this information is to be checked. Where did the Ukrainian media get that information from? We got it from our sources, from reliable sources.

6:39We have this project, I Want to Live, where the project is made with aim that everybody Everybody who joined Russian army and wants to leave, he can give up. And Ukraine will arrange his safe escape from Russian army, keeping it under the Geneva Convention's law. So what you're telling us is that according to this Ukrainian government-sponsored project and sources, that they discovered that while Kenya's minister was going to meet Russia's foreign minister, Kenyan troops within the Russian army were all being sent to the front line? Is that something you can definitively confirm? That's the information that we have received.

7:24That information should be checked, but that's very serious information and we took it very seriously. And so we even have the names of the victims that Kenyans didn't want to join the attacks. and therefore they were seriously, had serious consequences for such. We live in a time when propaganda about wars is really out there. Again, I'm trying to confirm, this is not propaganda. This is something that your positive, your sources would not get wrong. I heard, personally, I heard this information from two different sources. So this is not definitely propaganda. In Ukraine, we say every joke has a part of the joke.

8:13So this information has a very high level of probability. Did the sources also speak to why would Russia do this at a time when a minister is coming from a country and there's an agreement being made? Why would you do something that could potentially jeopardize relations between these countries? Our sources do not say that. So the only thing we have is that information. The other thing is that they are doing a strong attack now on Ukraine. They started after winter campaign with a new wave of attack against Ukraine. And this, we feel it on the front line. So the number of attacks had grown some places up to more than 50%.

8:59So attacks are growing and therefore they need people for that. Tell me about the number of troops from the Russia side who have been caught by Ukraine, African nationals, that is. Do you have those numbers? We have general number. We have general numbers that there is more than 200 prisoners of war taken in Ukraine that are kept in Ukraine as prisoners of war from the foreign countries with not Russian citizenship. But again, we treat them not by nationality, but only as prisoners of war, as representatives of the foreign army. Ghana's foreign minister recently had a meeting, I believe, with Ukraine's foreign minister over that.

9:47And Kenya here as well, the foreign minister, has spoken to talks with Ukraine as well on the release of the prisoners of war. When might this happen? This is the issue that is being discussed at the intergovernmental level. So we have designated two persons to negotiate that issue and the negotiations are underway. So at the moment, we have not released any prisoners of war due to the international legislation, especially Geneva Convention, that do not really allow that. But anyway, we are working on that and we are engaged with the Kenyan government on that issue and with Ghana, our government.

10:32I struggle to understand that because I've seen prisoner exchanges. I think recently Russia and Ukraine exchanged prisoners. So clearly that was able to happen. So why can't you allow African countries that want their nationalities back to be returned? The law predicts that it can be exchanged with the other side. That is exchange. Okay. But it does not predict that we can release those people. So this is... You're not holding those people to batter them. There are some who feel you're holding them so that you can exchange them later for your benefit. It's not about the things that we are holding them, because that's the law.

11:09So the law predicts that we can do the exchange for Ukrainians that have taken prisoners of war in Russia. But it doesn't predict the possibility to release those people to the country of origin. So that's, but there are other possibilities that within the international law that might allow it. You have this project called the I Want to Live project that you mentioned earlier, and it's sponsored by the government. How will it work? So if someone hears your advert and surrenders to Ukraine, are they going to be sent home? How does that work? First of all, they will be granted life. And that's the main thing.

11:56Unlike Russians, so we keep our word. So we promise that they'll be stay alive and they will be kept in good conditions according to international law. They will be taken as prisoners of war. They, according to this international law and the prisoners of war situations, can be released after the end of the war. Which no one knows when that might happen. They might end up being prisoners of war for another five years. That doesn't sound like a very good deal, Ambassador. But anyway, they'll stay alive. They'll have good conditions for life. They'll stay alive. But in case you are on the front line, on the Russian side, so that's the battlefield where almost 1 ,000 people die a day on the Russian side.

12:46Almost 1 ,000 people die a day on the Russian side. So those are the statistics you're pointing out. Yes. So you understand what I mean. In case you are in the Russian army, you have a huge chance to be among those 1 ,000. So your deal to the African nationals is to avoid being part of that statistic, turn yourself in. Absolutely. But no guarantee of when you might get home, depending on when the war ends or if something happens diplomatically. That's the choice between the life and the death. or to be left without. Well, that's the war, that's the front line. And the front line is very cruel.

13:26It is, you know, it is very rapid actions are taken. So we are not able to, we are defending our country. And the guys from that side, they are the part of aggression, the part of aggressive war against the sovereign country. So in case they were lured, they were coarsed, They were taken to the army in some other way, even if they joined voluntarily for some reason. But they see the horrible things that happen on the front line, and not all people can live with that. That's why they have the chance to give up. You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service.

14:26Find the vacation you're looking for in Missouri. Whether you're searching for this, wanting something like this. Oh, that's cute. Maybe up for something like this. Or just really, really need something more like this. You'll find the vacation you want in Missouri. Missouri, it's the getaway that gets... You. Plan your fun at visitmo.com.

15:19The Other Bennett Sister, now streaming only on Britbox. Watch for the free trial at Britbox.com. Now, I was quite surprised to hear Ukraine's ambassador make such strong allegations against Russia. Because typically, most ambassadors prefer to work behind the scenes, and when in front of the camera, often give general diplomatic statements, which rarely arouse controversy. It's been difficult to verify the claims he made, partly because Russian authorities did not respond to our request for information. But we also reached out to one family that confirmed that they had not been able to reach their son since March, roughly the same time when Kenya's foreign minister visited Russia.

16:03Some of the other families we spoke to were disappointed that the meeting between Kenya and Russia had not yet yielded a quick exit for their loved ones caught up in the war on the front lines of the Russia-Ukraine conflict. OK, let's return to my conversation with Ambassador Yuri Tokar. How many foreign nationals are fighting for Ukraine? There is no statistics about that. There is no statistics and mainly these were the people that came not for the money. There is a lot of people from Georgia, from Chechen, from Belarus that want to fight against, that do not agree with this war of aggression.

16:49And they want to resist to this Russian war of aggression against Ukraine, even Russian people. Do you have any promises? And I want to refer to an investigative piece that was done by a media house here in Kenya, where a recruiter spoke about the experience recruiting, you know, Kenyans to go and fight for Russia. But at the end of the piece, the recruiter also said, if you're interested in going to fight for Ukraine, that's also possible. Do you know if that is possible, that people could also be recruited to fight for Ukraine? I will tell you honestly from my heart, because this is a narrative that is being very hardly disseminated by Russian propaganda, that we are taking and the Ukrainians are also taking people to their army.

17:35But let's split the idea. So if the Russian army is an aggressor army, they do the hostilities. Ukrainian army is a defensive army. And we are defending our country, we're defending our sovereignty, and we are defending our right to live. Secondly, so I was trying to find a number of Africans in Ukrainian army, and I couldn't find that number. There is not much of them. We do not recruit people, you know, from the point of view of coercion or, you know, lie or promise some other job and sending people to the front line. So you can say that on record that that doesn't happen? Yes, I can tell you that the Ukrainian doesn't take, doesn't recruit foreigners to the army unless they want to join voluntarily.

18:34What is your message to the families here in Kenya? And this is happening across Africa because many were recruited from different African countries. What's your message to the families who know that their loved ones are prisoners of war in Ukraine and they don't know how they're going to get them back? What would you tell them, Ambassador? Well, first of all, rest assured that their conditions of stay in Ukraine are good. Because we strictly adhere to the international law, we allow Red Cross to check their conditions of stay, to check if they are fine, if they have all the necessary things. so from that point of view they are alive they are well kept and they are good that's the first thing that should be mentioned and as to when they might get home that's a question I cannot answer at the moment first of all as soon as the war ends and let's pray together for that war to end as soon as possible and secondly So the negotiations are underway.

19:47Even as we wind down this interview, what sense do you get of conditions at the front line? Some of the recruits who eventually got back spoke to how little training they received. How dangerous is it for a recruit who's been poorly trained to be deployed? I mean, it's an obvious question, but I'd just like to hear your experience or your thoughts on that. My point is that do not join the Russian army at all. First of all, so it doesn't matter if you'll be prepared or not. So first of all, you will join aggression. You will join illegal war. And even according to Kenyan law, you will become a criminal.

20:33Secondly, that, of course, the level of preparation. How dangerous is it out there? Give us that sense. It is, well, from the point of view we see, it is not the case because they are considered as, I don't want to say that word, but as expendables. So they were sent to the front line, to the most dangerous parts of the front line, to the most dangerous places with aim to do the job and to disappear. More broadly now, how has Ukraine's diplomatic engagement here on the African continent shifted? We're now four years into this conflict. How have your diplomatic engagements changed over that period?

21:23Well, we have our diplomatic activities are the same. So we are highly appreciating every support from every country that is given to Ukraine and that every support that is within international organization is provided. Every call for stopping this war is very important for us. Secondly, of course, we highly appreciate that reaction to funding because this campaign, a legal recruitment campaign, is very active from the Russian side. They were taking people from Central Asia, from India, from China, from a lot of other countries. And the system is the same. So they just switched to African continent and regretfully they find vulnerable people here, not telling them the truth about the conditions of work, promising them other places, other type of work.

22:33But again, when they arrive to Russia, they are forced, coerced, or lured to join Russian army and to become part of this criminal gang. Finally, at a time when a conflict is raging in the Middle East, Ukraine's drone development capability has come to the fore. I believe Ukraine is providing support to Saudi Arabia, to Qatar and other countries as well. What sort of security cooperation does your country have with African countries? Well, let's be honest. So until recently, Ukrainian technologies were not for export because we could hardly manage with the waves of attacks we were receiving. But at the same time, Ukraine was developing our armed forces and our production of those different types of defensive weapon.

23:31and that is why during the last year, I guess, we finally managed to get to the level that we could export our technologies, which are, let's be honest, one of the best because they are being checked every day on the front line. So in case something bad is happening, we have a direct line between the army and the producers and they are telling that that should be improved or that should be improved. And that's why it went to one of the highest level in the world from the point of view of effectiveness. Any sense of when this conflict in Ukraine might end? It's not conflict. It's a war, war of aggression against Ukraine.

24:17And Ukraine wants to end it as soon as possible. So everybody in Ukraine wants to end it now. And we will be happy about that very seriously. And we are glad that those negotiations with the support of the United States are going on now. But at the same time, we see that the only country that doesn't want peace is the Russian Federation. It's clearly shown, for example, we had our president put the initiative of making a ceasefire for Easter celebration. But Russian refused. So negotiations are going on. As soon as negotiations teams are meeting, the attacks are growing. So that's, well, Ukraine is interested.

25:09We want the peace, but we don't want to surrender.

25:17Thank you for listening to the interview. For more compelling conversations, You can search for The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts. You'll find episodes from the UK Defence Secretary John Healy, EIB President Nadia Calvino, and Vladimir Zelensky, the President of Ukraine, plus many others. Until next time, it's bye for now.

26:07We'll be right back. And get the big stuff shipped fast and free right to your door. Shop Wayfair's Memorial Day Sale, May 11th through 26th at the Wayfair Store at Eden's Plaza in Wilmette. Wayfair, every style, every home. She was the sister who went unnoticed. A daffodil might look plain next to a lily, but on its own there is much to be admired. Now her greatest chapter is yet to come. The most important thing is to be yourself. From the world of Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice comes a new Britbox original drama, Mary, you will flourish, based on the best-selling novel, The Other Bennett Sister, now streaming only on Britbox.

26:47Watch for the free trial at Britbox.com.