MI275: Thiel Fellowship & Startup Investing w/ Michael Gibson

25:30We ended up giving him a fellowship a few months later. And I made one of the worst financial decisions of my life because I was on point helping Vitalik out. It would be periodic meetings because the Ethereum group at the time, there were a lot of contesting egos and different visions for things. And those wrinkles needed to be sorted out. But by, I guess it was the summer of 2013. I maybe could be 14. But when Ethereum launched, I was out there marketing it, pushing the initial coin offering, but I ended up not buying a single Ether myself for a couple reasons. But I regret that. I have a friend who made millions and Danielle, my co-founder, she's always joking.

26:10She notices like whenever I go out for drinks with the guy, he doesn't cover the tabs. She's like, how is that? You know, he owes you. But yeah, so I mean, Vitalik is, I don't know, one of a kind. He is just probably one of the most brilliant people I've ever met on the planet. I don't know his IQ. I'm sure it's in the stratosphere. But one of the things I noticed in the early days was he was just typing in his phone in Mandarin. And I asked him what he was doing. And he said, oh, you know, I'm communicating with the Ethereum developers in China. I said, well, how did you learn Mandarin? And he said he just taught himself.

26:41So that's pretty different type of mind than your typical 20-year-old. But it's sort of like meeting the LeBron James of something, you know, people are always asking me about, I guess because they have in mind, it's like their frame of reference is like their children or their cousin or themselves. Like, oh, when I was 18, 19, you know, there's no way I could do that. And then when you look at someone like LeBron and he started in the NBA when I think when he was 18 or 19, it's like so clear that the guy was just a different type of person. So, I think the same is true for someone like Vitalik.

27:11You know, another person we met in 2012 and helped launch was Dylan Field. Dylan started a company in 2012 called Figma. They just made news in this last fall because Adobe purchased Figma for$20 billion. When that started in 2012, it was just two guys in a dorm room pretty much and we helped him get underway. And Dylan is... I love him. He's the antithesis of the Steve Jobs archetype. I mean, Dylan is obsessed with product and design the way Jobs was and certainly because Figma is a design tool. But he's just the nicest, kindest guy I've ever met in Silicon Valley. He's just so sweet and compassionate.

27:54And I can't imagine him having a reality distortion field. So, if there was anyone whose success I think is wonderful and deserving, it's Dylan. And so, it's been fun to see him grow that company to the heights it's reached. So, those are a couple. Some other people are like Ritesh Agarwal started oil rooms in India. that's still going pretty strong. You mentioned Luminar Technologies, Austin Russell. We met him in 2012, fellowship in 2013. And I detail that relationship in the book. I portray that relationship and seeing Luminar grow. So, that was pretty cool. So, yeah, those five years and the program continues.

28:35So, Danielle and I, by 2015, Danielle Strackman is my co-founder at 2015. We hired her to help run the fellowship all two weeks after I started. And she's a former school principal. She founded a charter school in San Diego called Innovations Academy. That's still going today. And so by 2015, Danielle and I thought, wow, we're doing this nonprofit thing. We could be making money. We could be making investments. There's no one else who has this investment thesis of backing people without college degrees. Why don't we give it a shot? So we raised miraculously in my mind our first fund And we've been in business ever since.

29:11So, the fellowship has gone on. There are some successes after we departed too. I think, you know, Scale AI is one that's quite big. So, the program's, you know, still doing quite well. And we're making investments. About 85 % or 90 % of our investments are in companies led by people who don't have college degrees. The only time we'll break our thesis is if we meet a mad scientist who is just like doing something so weird that we call it science fiction tech. So we backed a quantum computer company, Atom Computing, in our first fund. So every so often, we'll do that. But yeah, here we are. Let's dive into that a bit more.

29:46And as a little recap, you left the Teal Fellowship and started your own fund, 1517, to use those same philosophies and principles from the fellowship on a wider scale to really impact more businesses and more founders. It seems like your philosophy and principles are unlike anyone else in the industry. So how has that been your advantage? And how has that really been a hurdle for you over the years? Which do you see more of? Has it been more of an advantage or a hurdle? And how has it been your advantage? It's an advantage in that I think it's just weird. We don't trust young people as a society.

30:19That may seem strange to say, but when you put it in terms of who grant-making bodies give money to, if you look at the National Science Foundation, National Institute of Health, or so on. It's like the average age of the recipients is like 38, 39. And what that means to me is that, well, as a society, these institutions don't trust younger scientists to do anything. So, even though we had scenes like Zuckerberg, Gates, and Jobs, there are these examples of people, entrepreneurs who didn't have college degrees and started things when they were young. There was also the counterexamples of people like Elizabeth Holmes.

30:54I can't tell you how many times people have said, oh, but have you seen the dropout? I'm like, all right, you keep believing that because we've been making money over here following our thesis. And I think we've developed our diligence and honed our pattern recognition for understanding character that I think we would have passed on Miss Holmes. I guess we weren't put to the test. But yeah, so it's like another stat that people love to share with me is that, well, if you look at a lot of successful companies, the majority are founded by people who are 35 and 40 or between 35 and 40. And my answer to that is, yes, that is true, but it's a bell curve distribution.

31:30And so while most investors are focusing at the center of that bell curve, we are the only ones all the way on the left-hand tail helping people get started. So it's been an advantage in that respect. I guess the disadvantage is that it's like we're playing with one hand tied. So most investment firms have their job is just to make great investments and they don't care where they find them. The fact that we limit ourselves to only backing people without degrees, I mean, that just limits the pool of potential investment quite a bit. So, when we interact with other venture capital funds, there's always this sort of moment where everyone's like, oh, you got any great deals?

32:08Is there anything you can share with us? And it's always one-sided with us. We make investments and then we're happy to talk about them. But we never meet other funds who say, Hey, here's this dropout we met. You got to meet this person. So, yeah, we don't get a lot of help from the industry. The name 1517, yeah, names are important. The name of my book, the name of our fund. 1517 refers to our geeky reference to the Protestant Reformation, not because we're religious or Protestants, but because Martin Luther was protesting the sale of indulgences. These were pieces of paper that the church sold at great cost.

32:43You know, people could buy them and what it meant was you were absolved of sin, you weren't going to hell. And Luther was quite angry about this, that the church was making money, you know, forgiving people. So, he nailed his theses to the church door in 1517 on Halloween, as tradition has it, although I guess that's up for debate. But for us, what we saw is that there's a piece of paper that our, at least America is obsessed with. Most people think you're going to hell if you don't have it and you have to pay large sums to get it and it's called the diploma. So, we like to say we don't believe in indulgences.

33:14And when I was thinking about naming the book, what I realized was that there are a whole bunch of institutions that rely on paper. And this ties into a question you raised before, which is in the university setting, you have a diploma and that diploma is supposed to signal something of value about you as a person. And we rely on these authorities, universities to one, authenticate that that piece of paper is real, that it's not counterfeit or fraudulent or whatever, but also to underwrite the signal that it's meant to send to the wider world. And what I've seen over the last 40, 50 years is that the performance of a lot of our key institutions has been in decline, especially these institutions that depend on paper and its authentication and signaling system.

33:59So, it could just be another example would be the dollar. You know, the Federal Reserve prints dollars on paper. We rely on them to authenticate these dollars is real and to validate that they signal something of substance, of value, never mind that it's being inflated away or something like that. So, the authorities in these institutions, in my mind, have become less trustworthy and reliable. In the university setting, I think degrees have signaled less and less of value. What do they really signal to the wider world isn't quite clear. And then what's more now, a lot of these degrees are in essence like fraudulent pieces of paper where quite frankly, I think that zero skills are learned in a lot of degree programs and colleges right now are getting away with it.

34:44It's interesting I find in the debate about higher, the student loan crisis and the Biden administration's efforts to forgive loans. One of the key things missing in the whole discussion is who's responsible for all this debt and the worthless degrees and the lowest wages that people can't pay off their debts with and And it's the universities. So yeah, in my mind, the paper belt defines this region in the Northeast that from Washington, DC to Boston, where all these paper-based institutions reside, symbolically at least. So in Washington, they print money, regulations, visas on paper, Delaware, corporate on paper, New York, Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Madison Avenue, advertising all on paper.

35:24And in Boston, the pinnacle of American higher education, Harvard and MIT print their diplomas on paper. And so, I wrote an essay and I eventually put it on LinkedIn where I said, my mission in life is to light the paper belt on fire. And my editor saw that. She said, wow, let's go with that title. That's provocative. And I find it tends to polarize people. But the point is that these institutions are failing. They're in decline. Maybe we can reform them. I hope we can replace them with something new. I think the Teal Fellowship and what we do at 15, 17 points the way in education. I think there's a long way to go.

35:59But then I think we need to look at some of these other institutions too, and whether we can replace or reform them as well. Preston Pyshenko Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. Hey, it's Sean O'Malley, just popping in with a quick message. If you like this podcast, well, I've got great news for you. We've got a handful of other shows for you to explore, from learning about Bitcoin to embracing a richer, wiser, happier lifestyle. Just go into your podcast app and type in We Study Billionaires to find our collection of shows. We Study Billionaires is our flagship podcast, and we've made a name for ourselves over the years by interviewing the best investors in the world, including Ray Dalio, Howard Marks, Joel Greenblatt, and many, many more.

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39:23That's theinvestorspodcast.com slash tip-finance. All right, back to the show. Now I want to talk about some of the successes that you've had with 1517 and some of the companies. And let's start with Luminar. It's such a cool company, and it's a cool story that you highlight in your book. And you talked about Austin Russell. So let's talk about the company and Austin and what drew you to both of them. I met Austin for the first time at an event we held in 2012. We had decided that we had received so many applications for the Teal Fellowship that it was a shame that we couldn't interact and mingle with more of the candidates rather than just, let's say, the finalists or even the fellows.

40:08So, we decided to put together more or less like a makeshift conference where we invited a lot of the people who had applied and Austin had been in our orbit. We held it at the Mission High School in San Francisco. We had just rented out a high school. What was weird about it was the high school is so hell-bent on getting everyone to college that there was all this pro-college propaganda everywhere. But Austin approached us and he's an interesting individual where he had been doing research and playing around in photonics and laser laboratories in Irvine as a teen. And UC Irvine has a very famous photonics laboratory and Austin's type of lab rat snuck in and started mixing it up with professors and stuff when he was just a high school student, not even part of the college.

40:54And so, when we first met him, he had some ideas about how to generate higher power lasers to do different things. And we always have this question when we meet back then fellows, but now founders is, you know, the question is, is someone crazy or crazy awesome? Sometimes it's not always easy to tell the difference. With Austin, we thought, oh my God, this guy with his lasers, because he thought he could do, you know, it could be like power transmission or maybe even diagnostics or, you know, what he settled on at the time, at the very beginning was using LiDAR systems to replace cameras in Hollywood, especially for movies that use special effects and green screens.

41:32And we did diligence. We had people from the physics department at Stanford that we knew, some physicists who interviewed him and he checked out. They're like, hey, he's doing some wild stuff, but he's not outside the bounds of sanity. So, we're like, okay, yeah, we give him a fellowship. And then pretty quickly around that time, you know, not there long after the mania for driverless vehicles started to pick up. That stemmed from Google's first, I think, coming out of the DARPA challenge in the 2000s. But by 2012, 2013, now the wave had started to pick up just because a lot of advances were being made on the software side for, you know, the software that would be used in a perception system for some vehicles.

42:13But Austin's key insight, he saw a huge opening was because Silicon Valley seemed to be so obsessed with the software and the computation, he realized that a lot of advances in the hardware had to come about. It's like, yeah, I don't care how fast your computer can get. I think the quality of the eyes and the data coming in matters. And that was what Austin saw. He teamed up with a mentor of his to co-found Luminar and they were on their way and it took them some time. But there are constraints within the world of perception technologies that they knew they had to overcome these constraints in a way to meet the needs and meet the needs of, you know, what a car company would need in order to operate a driverless car.

42:55And so, some of those constraints are like the distance that the system can see or the conditions under which it can operate or, you know, can it distinguish its own lasers from, you know, some other system that's shooting lasers at it. I mean, there's so many things that have to be done. And so, you know, it took them some time, they were operating in stealth, but they were making progress. And we were alongside the whole time, doing the best we could to offer advice and strategy. By 2017, 2018, it had become full-blown mania because you had Elon Musk giving announcements saying that Tesla, there could be a fleet of robo-taxi Teslas by 2021.

43:32You had Uber and Lyft building whole department. I think Uber bought the whole Carnegie Mellon robotics team out of the campus. And those companies were positioning themselves A lot of their future cash flows were premised on this idea that they were going to have robo-taxis. So that when you look at the valuation of any startups in the autonomy space from 2017, 2019, pretty astonishing. And Luminar just kept pushing forward. They were always on the outside in terms of they weren't backed by Sequoia. They weren't backed by Kleiner. We believed in them all the way. And they always just believed that they were building a technological competitive advantage and they had it.

44:14And so now, you know, here we are. So I do document in the book like, okay, what is it like a little bit to work with this company? And then I was there the day they went public on the NASDAQ in December 2020. But, you know, underneath that is just this really tremendous story. I mean, that company deserves a book on its own because it was just like a tremendous heroic effort to innovate in a way that would sustain that competitive advantage. Now, that said, of course, it's like you have Elon Musk still saying that we don't need LiDAR. He's going to have just camera. They're going to use video cameras.

44:46That's the belief that the computers are just going to become so powerful that it won't matter that the data is so spare. I worry about nighttime vision with cameras, not as powerful as LiDAR in nighttime conditions, or they can be fooled and spoofed easier. So, I think he's got some obstacles in his path. And then there are some other LiDAR companies that have emerged. maybe InnoViz, Ava is another one. And I think it's fair to say just based on public information out there that Luminar is still far ahead in terms of the technology. And now in terms of the companies that are working with their main customers, Volvo, I forget the model, but this fall, Luminar will be on a large number of Volvos and that'll expand over the next few years.

45:29And they keep announcing more customers coming online. Once COVID hit and then postco, So actually, it's really the economic response to COVID and the inflationary economy. The Fed started hiking rates. And what that meant is that any tech company whose future growth was somewhere in the far future, those companies got hit hard in their valuations. So it's like you look across tech stocks, just major declines over the last year since the Fed's been hiking rates. And then if you look at the autonomy space, it's been hammered. And so it's kind of interesting to see that it's just been harder and harder than people think to get to those robo taxis.

46:09Ford recently announced they're shutting down their Argo unit and other efforts are shutting down. So I think the path forward in autonomy is going to be this incremental path where it starts out using these perception systems for driver assist. What that means is keeping you safe in the lanes on the highway, helping you park your car. Eventually, we'll get to the point where you can totally hand over the car. And then as these systems are learning, and as they learn, they get better and better, some of the hardware will improve. And so I do think we will get to robo-taxi type things. It's just going to take another 10 years or so.

46:44But Luminar, yeah, the management team is still extraordinary and they're really building out their manufacturing. So I am still bullish on the company and I'm excited to see what they do. I'm glad you painted all the color behind the backstory and competitive landscape, because I want to know what you think sets Luminar apart from others that it's competing against. You mentioned Elon Musk, Tesla, Google, Google's AI, and some other smaller companies now in the LiDAR technology that are emerging. So what are the advantages that you think Luminar has over everyone else? And what do you think, if we're being a realist here, what do you think are some of the risks ahead?

47:23I think right now they still have a technological advantage when it comes to distance, accuracy, accuracy in bad conditions, and some of those other weird problems I mentioned where it could be like sun glare from windshields because the sensor in a LIDAR is picking up photons. So, you have to know how to distinguish your photons from any other source, whether it's the sun or lasers. So, the proof in the pudding is just, hey, they're acquiring these customers and some of their competitors are not. And even when their competitors do sign contracts, It's always like for some small number of units for a development fleet, not for production level units that are going to be out on the highways.

48:05So to me, I think they just still have that competitive advantage. You go point by point. It's full of the industry is full of a lot of showmanship through press release where people will claim that they, let's say, have a better range on the system. But what they don't tell you is that they tested that system in a white room against a black object. It's a very different situation when you're on the road at night and the object has 10%, 5 % reflectivity. So, the fact that Luminar has been able to reach these levels of performance, I think, is still impressive. Now, I think that said, of course, I don't want to deny that people are racing to try to match their performance specs.

48:44But I still think that they're years ahead right now at this point. As far as Tesla goes, look, I love Elon Musk. I would never bet up against him. I think he's just like a charismatic Randian hero. It's like you couldn't make up this guy. But I will say when it comes to the so-called full self-driving of Tesla, I think he's been wading into some murky territory where I wish he did not call it full self-driving. There are so many accidents that are reported just about every week where someone trusted their Tesla autopilot when they shouldn't have. And so, I think in terms of safety, that's been unfortunate.

49:17I think there's a long way to go. It's hard to predict how technology moves. So if we get to some super artificial intelligence and it's so smart, it can take weak data and still read the roads, maybe that's possible. But for me, the most likely path forward is some perception stack that relies upon LiDAR, maybe a little bit of radar for short range. And then, yeah, sure, maybe even cameras too. I mean, it's not like that has to be ruled out, but I do think it's going to be a combination of different sensors. It's a really interesting company and it's still relatively small. And there's a big opportunity for growth here.

49:57So the expectations for growth are really high. I was actually just looking at their financials and I believe I saw that they're expecting 100 % growth in revenues in 2023. So what do you think is driving those revenue numbers? Is it some of the contracts with the major car and truck companies? Yeah, the Volvo deal is the current strongest revenue stream. And they have these development deals with a lot of other car companies. If a car company is testing out different systems, they're going to buy units from all the different companies in the landscape. But I think what we're going to see over the next year is just knocking down more of these production level deals, where it's clear that a car company has decided, okay, we're going with Luminar as our provider in the supply chain for perception.

50:44And I think that's where the revenue is going to come from, selling those units. And then they're also on the software side training. So imagine, I guess you could compare it to Tesla. Tesla is vertically integrated. So it's like the whole car is made by Tesla, including the perception system. But one thing Tesla has made famous is that they're learning every single Tesla is feeding information into the motherboard, the mothership. And then that feeds back out to the cars all over the world and trains them to be better. And so just imagine Luminars doing the same thing for the cars that they'll be in.

51:17As a value investor, I'm still kind of wrapping my head around this whole company. It's not profitable. They're spending a lot of money. Their revenue is great, but it's not profitable. So as a value investor, I'm still kind of wrapping my head around it. It's still on my watch list for now, but it's something interesting that I'm keeping an eye on. Yeah, it's still a young company. They went public in the heyday of the SPAC, which is a lot of those companies that went public through that route are really facing a tough time because a lot of their future revenue is far in the future. And the way Wall Street analysts value companies, especially in a high interest rate environment, that puts a higher discounted rate on future cash flows.

51:55And so, you look at the valuations of any company that's in that growth category, they've just been slammed. So, I think Luminar on a relative basis has been doing quite a good job. But look, that said, I don't want to pretend there aren't challenges ahead. They certainly have a lot of runway, but that revenue stream is going to have to pick up by 2024, 2025. As we get towards the end of the show, Michael, I want to know, what are you working on right now? And what are you excited about? What are some of your current or most exciting projects? Well, yeah. So we're constantly thinking about just how to inspire the next generation.

52:31I guess we've gotten really good at talent spotting because just running the Teal Fellowship and 1517, there's a set of character traits that we look for in founders. What we don't, what is the black box is development. So, we know talent spotting. What does talent development look like? And that's really, really hard. We have some ideas that we want to try out. We're looking to pilot maybe a summer program for teens where we want to expose them to frontier technologies. Because when I was a teenager, I didn't know about quantum computing or moving objects in outer space, you know, all these different areas that are opening up, I think could be quite inspiring for teens.

53:09And then maybe just getting them together with each other. So, we just find that can be so valuable. So, we're looking to go younger and younger. Like, how do we expose people, get them inspired to want to pursue a different path? So, that excites me. We call this effort the invisible college. We're always giving names to things and invisible because it's not like a normal college, but we do want to... It's funny. He's like, we don't believe in classroom education, but we do believe in learning. So, how do we get people out to the frontier as fast as possible? And we're trying to dream up new ways to do that.

53:39Otherwise, yeah, we're just in business. I'm just out there meeting new people all the time and trying to get to understand where they're coming from, see how we can help them. We do a lot of events in cities and around college campuses. So, I just got back actually from a massive Midwest tour where I went to Chicago, Ann Arbor, Indianapolis, Champaign-Urbana. And the whole time I'm just meeting younger people building stuff. And that's what inspires me. This is a dream. I get to meet people who are doing extraordinary things. And I love the challenge of trying to get up to speed on what they're working on.

54:14I know you've said that you have certain qualities that you look for in founders. And I think for investors, even if it's a public company, it's important to have a checklist for the CEO or the management team. So what do you look for? What's your checklist for founders? Well, when we started the fellowship, we were too imitative of college. We had an application that looked for, we asked for GPA, your test scores, what college you went to, maybe even asked for AP exams. And in the event, pretty quickly, we discovered these things were not great predictors of success for entrepreneurs. We had to know that you had the technical know-how and smarts to build what you were going to build.

54:51But when it came to success, we just saw some other contributing factors. And then we started to canvas the research literature on creativity, which is very lame, and these observational studies of past greatness in different fields. And so, we suddenly realized it's like, wow, you know, sometimes we may just have to invent our own terms for things. So, in the book, I go through a number of them. One of them that like I start off the bat with is, and it's pretty common, people want to know that someone has the, let's say, courage to become an entrepreneur. In a lot of the rhetoric and marketing around entrepreneurship, it's always portrayed as this leap of faith.

55:29It's almost like an extreme sport. It's portrayed as like jumping out of an airplane. And there is an element of truth to that. But what we decided, we had to find the sustaining motivation for that courage. This is a term we use, the sustaining motivation. Because we found that what was really important was what motivated people to want to work on this problem. We discovered it couldn't be fame or fortune. If you're after money, starting a company is like the worst way to do it because the chances of success are so low and the ups and downs are so high and low that it can be quite the challenge.

56:05And so, the only way to get through that dark night of the soul is to have some sustaining motivation to pull you through. It doesn't have to be that the company you're working on is like Like this, the meaning of life, purpose, like, oh, you know, maybe you're saving the environment. I mean, that can work. Okay, I love that. But it can also be something like you just love the excitement of the mischief making of working with your best friends. And that's going to pull you through. So, I got that term from a book from the Civil War of all things. I was just interested in motivation and commitment.

56:34And I read a book on, you know, why people would reenlist in war after they had seen the horrors. and this one historian pointed out, you know, various sustaining motivations. And since I saw the same thing, it was never, it wasn't going to be like in the army. It's interesting. It's like no one joins for like patriotism. I mean, maybe you sign up, but that's not why you reenlist. Why you reenlist is the band of brothers. It's like, you don't want to let your friends down. And I think there's something similar with startups. So, I do think it does take courage, but there has to be a motivating character trait there.

57:06And for us, when we're talking to people who are willing to leave school, that's just like such a strong signal of commitment that this is so important to you that you're willing to give up this socially sanctioned commitment to college to do something unusual. That's a big piece of the puzzle for us. And so, by contrast, sometimes we meet professors and they've got some research coming out of their lab, but they're not going to quit their tenure track job or their tenure job to do it. To us, that sends a terrible signal. It means you don't believe in this idea enough to leave your cush job. So yeah, always wondering about the commitment and the motivation.

57:43There's another one we call Friday Night Dyson Sphere that touches on commitment too, because it's like, startups combine ambition and practicalness in a way that sometimes leads to confusion and paradoxes. But for us, we love someone who, a Dyson Sphere is this far-flung idea from the physicist Freeman Dyson that, you know, one day will harness the whole power of a star by surrounding it with solar cells, basically. And so, it's like the grandest vision you could imagine in science fiction. So, the fact if we meet someone and they're working on this on a Friday night on campus when all their friends are partying, this is the one thing they want to be working on.

58:20And they've got some ridiculous plan to move from like this lemonade stand that they're currently operating to grow the business to build Dyson spheres in eight years. That's something we'd love to hear. So yeah, I think entrepreneurship just requires... I mean, these types of character traits don't guarantee success, but they certainly contribute to it. And the thing I noticed is you can't... The game is the best teacher. To try to impart this kind of knowledge in a class just doesn't work. Before I let you go, where can the audience go to learn more about you, find your book, remind people what the name of your book is?

58:51Just tell people where they can go to connect with you, learn more about what you got going on and more about your story. Yeah. So, if you have ideas, if you just want to chat with us because you're interested in startups or you have an idea you want to try to nurture, just go to our website, 1517fund.com. We have a contact form. It goes straight to me, Danielle, and a couple other people. We always follow up with that. On Twitter, I'm at William Blake. I was a journalist when Twitter started. So, I thought it was a site for haiku. I was like, what is this? So, I signed up as a poet. I do admire William Blake, but yeah, you can follow me there.

59:23And yeah, do pick up a copy or listen to my book. There's an audible paper built on fire. And thanks for having me on. All right, guys, that's all I had for this week's episode of Millennial Investing. I'll see you again next week. Thank you for listening to TIP. Make sure to subscribe to We Study Billionaires by the Investors Podcast Network. Every Wednesday, we teach you about Bitcoin, and every Saturday we study billionaires and the financial markets. To access our show notes, transcripts or courses, go to theinvestorspodcast.com. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any decision, consult a professional.

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