MI291: How to Create a Great Life w/ Kevin Dahlstrom

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26:07And for a limited time, you can use code stocks15 for a 15 % discount at checkout. All right, back to the show. So for our listeners that aren't familiar with the FIRE acronym, it's Financial Independence, Retire Early. There's another book that I loved called Your Money or Your Life, which was kind of a precursor actually to Mr. Money Mustache, which goes into the same kind of concepts of what he's espousing, but it's great stuff. Definitely. I totally agree with you that it's something people need to check out. You interviewed him. Did you have any kind of interesting takeaways from the interview?

26:42Any interesting kind of little tidbits that you learned from him? Well, the one thing I'd say about Pete is he's a true believer. I mean, he definitely practices what he preaches. And I would say even on the extreme. And so, because Pete is on the extreme, I think those are the best people to learn from because most of us like Pete famously for many years now has published his annual spending. And even with a wife and a kid, his annual spending was something like$27 ,000, which most of us probably would struggle to live on$27 ,000 a year, but the principle applies at any level. Even if you live on$100 ,000,$200 ,000 a year, the principle still applies.

27:22And so I think that's like one thing I took away from my interview with Pete is, you know, he practices what he preaches. And, you know, among, there's a lot of bad financial advice out there. In fact, it kind of drives me nuts that I see a lot of personal finance influencers on Twitter, on YouTube and elsewhere, just giving really, really bad advice, bad financial advice. And so I like to find people who really practice what they preach. Well, let's get into that. You did a post called, it was about five smart money moves that wealthy people make that the average middle-class American doesn't.

27:58Can we get into that a little bit and touch on some of those smart money moves? Sure. I'm going to pull it up real quick here on Twitter so I can actually just reference it. Yeah. So the thread was called top five money moves of the rich. And, you know, this is basically things that anybody can do to start building wealth. It's what the smartest, wealthiest people do. And so, for example, you know, a lot of it's like simple things, but practiced and compounded over time. So, you know, the rich accumulate assets is one. So you want to spend your money on things that grow in value, like real estate, for example, or stocks, and not spend a lot of money on things that depreciate in value, like cars being the prime example.

28:44Cars are the number one offender. Buying a new car, especially if you're not financially independent already, is a disastrous financial move. It just is. It's the number one destroyer of wealth. I mean, I could drive anything I want at this stage, but I still don't just because on principle, I'm just not going to invest my money in things that lose value. So people, smart, wealthy people accumulate assets. Real estate, one thing I learned fairly late in life is real estate in particular is a system that really is stacked in our favor, whether that means just owning your own home as a starting point or buying other properties, eventually participating in real estate, private equity funds like I do.

29:23Educate yourself on real estate and start investing there. And then compounding. I'm sure we're going to talk a lot about compounding in the next few minutes, but compounding is really the key to anything. It's small actions done consistently over time add up exponentially. And so practicing all these behaviors, putting money into assets that increase in value over 20 years builds extraordinary wealth. And then another one is avoiding debt. So debt is a huge destroyer of wealth. You should only use debt to buy assets that are going to grow in value like a home. So mortgage would be considered a smart use of debt, but buying a car or buying clothes or whatever with debt is a bad idea.

30:09And then the last thing I mentioned in that thread was make everything a money move. So it becomes really a kind of a fun, almost like a game to live your life in a way and have a mindset such that everything you do is done with a mind toward inching toward financial success or financial independence. And again, I'll go back to the fire movement. People should educate themselves on fire because that's kind of a core principle. It's almost like a lifestyle more than it is just a financial strategy. Yeah, it's completely a lifestyle. I wanted to get into, you've been in fintech for most of your career.

30:44You started Swell, which we actually, I kind of want to get into Swell because it's a mission, I think of yours to help the average person acquire wealth. The top 1 % or top 5 % have all kinds of services and products available to them that helps build wealth. With Swell, can you go into a little bit about what you've done with the company and just the mission that you've got with the company of Swell? Yeah. So there's no question that our financial system in general is rigged heavily in favor of the wealthy. The poor people not only have access to less opportunities in the financial system, they pay more for everything.

31:25And so I think we've reached a time where we desperately need to democratize our financial system. The challenge is consumer finance, banking, these are super regulated industries. Essentially, the big banks or banks in general have an oligopoly on the market. They have this thing called a bank charter that allows them to have superpowers to do things that other companies can't. And there's been a lot of investment over the past five or 10 years in fintech, financial technology, a lot of startups trying things. The reality is it's proven to be, banking has proven to be an extremely difficult industry to disrupt.

32:01And I founded a company a few years ago called Swell that had the mission of disrupting. We were particularly focused on the credit card industry. Credit card debt in the US just topped a trillion dollars for the first time in history. The average APR people are paying on that debt is over 20%. It's a huge, huge problem that doesn't get talked about enough. And we set out to disrupt it. And the current news is I sold my company Swell back in May. So I'm no longer the CEO and founder of Swell, but the mission continues. But it's something I am really personally passionate about, which is not only just basically helping people get ahead because banks have proven that their motive is anything but to help you get ahead.

32:45It's to help themselves get ahead. And there's a huge need for new companies, new financial services, new products that help people get ahead, whether it's in managing their debt, their investments and so on. because financial literacy is very, very low in the US. It's abysmal. It's one of our core tenets too, is just providing great financial education. Congratulations, by the way, on selling Swell. That's awesome. So one of your first points was having creative work. Now that you're not doing Swell or you've sold out, what's your next project that you're into? Oh man, I have far more projects than time.

33:22That's a challenge of mine. In fact, I just came back from two weeks up in the mountains near Telluride, Colorado. And I came back very convicted that I need to really prune my life a little bit. I'm really overcommitted because there's so many things I'm excited about. But that being said, I do think it's absolutely critical to have projects you're passionate about, multiple projects going on at any given time, whether it's work-related or purely personal. One project that I'm deep in the middle of right now, And I can't talk a lot about the details, but I'm hosting an event here in Boulder in early September for 18 friends, most of whom came from Twitter.

33:59And it's a bit of a pilot test for an idea that a big idea that I have. And so coordinating an event and curating it to my level of excellence has been a huge undertaking, much bigger than I expected. But it's been also a great creative outlet for me. And so I'm a huge believer in like, you need to express your creativity. And that can that can look lots of different ways. I mean, it can look like doing a home renovation project and using your hands and actually building stuff yourself. It could be a writing project. It could be exploring a new business opportunity like I'm doing. I think that's really, really important to be fulfilled.

34:33You talk about that. That's one of the other points of a great life is being multidimensional, not just being focused like a Elon Musk or a Steve Jobs, like focusing all their energy. You know, they built great things, but at the expense of being multidimensional. So yeah, I think minimalism fits into that. You've got time to pursue those passion projects. So all good stuff. I want to switch into talking about the next point, which is fitness and nutrition. So one of your points, I think, was you want to be in the top 0.1 % of guys your age. Is it guys your age or just in general? Yeah, whichever.

35:10Yeah. So let's get into that. When did you get into fitness and nutrition? Talk about some of the things that you're practicing to really build to great life in that domain. Yeah. I've written a lot about this, but I've always been into sports and athletics my whole life. But in college, I had a huge health challenge. I didn't know it at the time, didn't realize it until years later, but I had a severe bout of Epstein-Barr virus. And Epstein-Barr is the virus behind what we call mono. And for most people, you get it and then your immune system suppresses it and you move on with life. It's kind of always there, but your immune system keeps it under control.

35:47For some people, and I was one of them, it runs unchecked and it can create huge health problems. It causes your hormones to go out of balance. It causes psychological problems. You're deeply fatigued, muscle weakness, like a whole host of problems. And that happened to me in college. And it was a huge wake-up call because I'd always been, thought of myself as like exceptionally healthy and fit. And now all of a sudden, I could barely drag myself out of bed. And so, that really began a journey where I went deep into understanding, you know, kind of how to rebuild because the mainstream medicine has had back then and still has today, very few answers for any chronic condition.

36:25In fact, I dodged a number of bullets along the way, things that doctors wanted to do that just didn't feel right to me. And so what I learned over time is, you know, there's no shortcuts. It's, you know, a lot of it boils down to just diet, nutrition, and, you know, an exercise. And so that's become I'm a huge part of my life. And also at a more fundamental level, you only get one life to live on this planet. Why wouldn't you want to like your body is your vessel for experiencing life? Why wouldn't you want your vessel to be in tip top shape? Why wouldn't you want to drive a Ferrari and not a Yugo?

37:00And so it's just a logical thing to me. I think it's really sad when someone lets themselves get obese or way out of shape because you literally can't experience life to its fullest if your body is not healthy. I mean, a great example, like you can't have great sex if you're not healthy. And so I guess you can choose to opt out of that or miss out on it. But I want to experience life, everything that life has to offer. And so I've always made health and fitness a top priority for me. In fact, it really should be the top priority because it really is true that the old saying that a healthy man has a hundred problems, a sick man only has one.

37:40It really is true is that, you know, if you don't have your health, you have nothing. I had a little bout with diverticulitis a while ago and it put me, I mean, it just put me down. And yeah, you're right. When you, when you've got a health crisis, like you had in college, you actually had to drop out of school when that happened, right? Oh yeah, it was severe. In fact, I dropped out for a semester, but even when I came back a semester later, I was still very, very ill. And I kind of limped, limped my way through college and then slowly began to rebuild. So it was, you know, it was devastating.

38:13To your point, when you have a health crisis like that, you realize how important your health is and it's not to be taken for granted. And like you said, you need to focus time and energy on it, like as one of the top priorities. And the older you get, the more time and energy you need to put into it. So I call it tightening the screws. Like, you know, when you're in your twenties, you can kind of get away with, you know, you want to stay fit, but it doesn't take a whole lot. Your body's working in your favor. As you get in your thirties, forties, fifties, you have to be able to devote more and more time to your health.

38:41That's why, by the way, all these things are connected. That's why it's important to control your time. Because if you're still working 60 hours a week in an office, it's going to be very hard to devote another 20 or 30 hours to your health and fitness. And so you've got to gain control of your time as you progress. Have you come across the, it's Dr. Peter Atiyah, the book Longevity. Have you read that at all? Of course. Yeah. I mean, Atiyah is a rock star. I've been in that movement way before it was cool. It's really fashionable now, but I was doing what they now call biohacking 20 years ago, 25 years ago.

39:16So I'm familiar with Atiyah and all those guys. And yeah, I think it's great that it's becoming a huge focus now. Diet-wise, what are some things you do? Do you have any kind of special diet that you implement? Yeah. I mean, I think one of the keys in diet is not to be overly dogmatic, because if you are, it will never stick. So if you look at my ideal end state list, one of the bullet points on there says eat an 80 % clean diet. I found that for me, I avoid things that I know I don't do well on. For me, for example, ever since my illness in college, I'm super sensitive to alcohol, like way more than most people.

39:53And so I still drink, but I do it very, very sparingly. But generally just eating really clean food most of the time, Everything in moderation, including moderation. So I definitely have binge days and I like my ice cream and desserts, but if you can kind of stick to an 80 % clean diet, plus the exercise, you're going to do great. Let's move on to the next thing that we have in common, which is writing. You spend, I think a lot of time doing the Twitter threads. I think a lot of your mornings are spent doing writing. In a lot of ways, it's a superpower if you can write well, especially with Twitter, for example, there's a lot of people on there, including yourself because of their skill in writing have really been able to grow their followers, provide great content.

40:34Talk to me a little bit about writing for you, how you got into it, your practice, any kind of tips and tricks that you have for being a better writer. Yeah. And I would actually say, Patrick, that writing is a superpower, even if you're not good at it. Because the real benefit of writing goes to the writer, not to the reader. The fact that if you can, for example, if you write on Twitter and you can amass a following, whatever, tens of thousands of followers, that's like the icing on top. It's great. It's very flattering, but the real value of writing is in the writing itself, not in the publishing and having other people read it.

41:08And so, you know, I believe as it sounds like you do that developing a practice of writing is critical because there is nothing on earth that sharpens thinking like writing. And again, you don't have to be a good writer, but I think just that getting into that practice and I'm big on routine. So, you know, a big part, the biggest part of my morning routine is sitting down and writing with a cup of coffee. And the amazing thing about Twitter in particular is there's like this, you know, writing often requires inspiration. And when I wake up in the morning and I go through my Twitter feed, you know, in 10 minutes, I'll usually see something that inspires a thought.

41:42And so at any given time, I'm in the midst of writing, you know, 10 or 12 or 20 different little pieces or threads or tweets. And the vast majority of them never see the light of day. I publish maybe one in 10 or one in 20 things I write, but the other 95 % that doesn't get published is still immensely valuable to me because again, it really nothing sharpens thinking. So my advice to anybody is just to start, like start with five minutes a day. It can be crappy writing. You don't have to publish anything. If you think you've written something that's great, publish it on Twitter and you're going to be shouting into the void.

42:19and you may shout into the void for months and months and months, but that's fine. So I could go on and on about the value of writing. And in fact, you know, again, just like fitness, as you progress in life, I think you want to be able to devote more of your time to activities like writing. You know, I probably spend, I don't know, at least five to 10 hours a week writing, depending on what's happening that week. Was that your experience when you first got on Twitter that you were writing into the void and there wasn't a lot of feedback? Oh, absolutely. I mean, that's how it all starts. And I think my account's a little bit different than a lot of my peers on Twitter.

42:57And that from day one, I said, I'm going to write for an audience of one, which is me. And if I'm pleased with it, that's my only bar. And I've stuck to that. Now, three years later, I've stuck to it and it's worked pretty well. But if I'm being honest, Like I do see some of my friends who've like really learned to write content for engagement. Like they write content specifically to drive views or comments or followers or whatever. And they've got way more followers than I have, but I just can't make myself do that. Like I just have no interest in writing garbage or engagement bait. And that's maybe to my detriment.

43:34But what I will say is the nice thing about, you know, sticking to your guns is the followers that, you know, the 50 ,000 or whatever followers that I do have, they follow me because they truly enjoy my content. They don't follow me because I posted a clever piece of clickbait. And so that's something I'm proud of. But yes, I mean, I started off with zero followers. This is really during the beginning of the pandemic. And you're shouting into the void, you're commenting on other people's posts. And it's one of those slowly, then all at once. It's kind of a snowball effect. I would say like anything in life, consistency is key.

44:07I agree. I think people lose a little authenticity when they do the clickbaity tweets. And Kevin Kelly had a great article on a thousand true fans. I don't know if you've come across that before, but it's great, great article just about being authentic and crafting stuff that your fans are going to love. I think that's what you've done. What I find really valuable and helpful is just like, you know, you've got a great message that you're consistent with and it's just great content. So you've got true fans? Yeah, for your listeners, I highly recommend reading that essay. Just Google 1000 true fans, Kevin Kelly.

44:42And he wrote that article, by the way, in 2008. And the basic idea behind that article was, hey, these days with the internet, if you can amass 1000 fans who are like really true fans of yours, you can make a living. And the article was actually a little bit ahead of its time, because that wasn't really true at the time he wrote it. But I actually believe now in 2023, if you have a thousand true fans, you actually can find ways to monetize and make a living off of that. And so it's an amazing world we live in now, but I absolutely agree with you that, you know, I'd rather have one true fan than a hundred sort of casual followers or people who are following me for the wrong reason.

45:21Do you have any other writing resources that have been helpful for you on crafting a practice? Something that comes to mind real quick for me is the morning pages. I don't know if you've ever done those. I'll be honest. I'm a little bit of an outlier in this in that I'm not a big book learner. So everything I do, I tend to learn by doing. And I definitely draw inspiration from other writers that I admire. And a lot of them are on Twitter, but I haven't really done any structure. I haven't really used any structure approach to improving my writing or learning. So yeah, I really couldn't point out any resources.

45:56Yeah. That's one I would mention. Julia Cameron, I think is the author's name. And it's just a daily practice of writing three pages, just kind of stream of consciousness, almost just journaling, just whatever's on your head, getting it down on the page and creative stuff starts to come out. One thing I'd say though, and I'm going to be a little bit of a contrarian here, is three pages is a big ask. I think that's a non-starter for most people. Most people simply aren't going to do this. It's great to say, but start with one sentence, literally. Write a sentence down that you think is kind of interesting or clever and then build from there.

46:28And the other thing I'd say is one of my pet peeves, and it happens a lot in today's world of like, there's unlimited podcasts you can listen to. There's tons of business books. And I think often people try to substitute doing with learning. And, you know, they listen to all the podcasts, they read all the books, but they never actually do anything. And it becomes a form of procrastination. So in anything that you do, my advice is have a massive bias toward action. Like literally before you think like, how can I educate myself? Just go do it. And then you'll understand exactly what you need to be educated on.

47:02Let's get into the next thing that you wrote about in the tweet, which was the importance of not doing dumb things. This kind of reminds me of a Charlie Munger thing about like, he just doesn't want to make stupid decisions, basically. Talk about some of the dumb decisions that you see younger people make that you just kind of want to shake them, things that maybe you did in your own life. Yeah. There's a lot of talk about the things you should do, like the strategies for success, but there's not much talk about the things you should not do, like the things you should avoid. And in my opinion, those are equally important.

47:33And I see young people making mistakes like that all the time. And we actually talked about some of them when we were talking about the fire movement and personal finance. Like a lot of them have to do with just making dumb financial moves. Like, you know, I'm going to say something probably a little bit provocative and controversial, but you know, student loans are a great example is that, you know, if you're going to take out student loans, you better make sure that you're doing it for a career that will allow you to pay those back pretty darn quickly. And a lot of people do or running up credit card debt for buying things that aren't assets, you know, and things like that, that can actually, what ends up happening, particularly when it comes to finance is they keep you from freedom.

48:09They trap you into now having to do things that you probably don't want to do for a lot longer than you otherwise would. And so, yeah, I'm a huge advocate of don't do things that make your life miserable. And you could talk about vices, addictions, whatever. Keep those things in check. And for some people, I would argue that's the more important side of the equation is to stop doing unproductive, unhealthy, toxic things. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. Hey, it's Sean O'Malley, just popping in with a quick message. If you like this podcast, well, I've got great news for you.

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51:54That's theinvestorspodcast.com slash T-I-P dash finance. All right, back to the show. Which takes me to your next point, which is the, and kind of ties into minimalism, but the importance of keeping a low burn rate, not getting yourself into financial trouble, that you've got to lead a life that you don't really love and don't want to be leading, which often happens. Yeah, it's the consumption trap, right? And this is hardwired in me because I grew up in an environment in a childhood where the future was always so uncertain. And so I have a bit of a depression era mindset in that even though I'm a wealthy person, I still keep our burn rate quite low with the option to reduce it even lower if I needed to, which is a little bit, I guess, doesn't even make sense necessarily at this point in my life because I don't have to, but it makes me sleep well at night.

52:48And again, as you mentioned, it ties into this idea of minimalism where what you realize is actually the, you know, less is more. Like you're actually not, you're not more miserable when you do less and spend less, you're more happy. Yeah. And it just keeping that low burn rate just gives you optionality in life. Like it just gives you tremendous more choices than you would otherwise. Absolutely. Mark Cuban actually preaches about that. He's like, if you're trapped financially, then you're going to miss out on all the opportunities that come your way because you're just not in a position to pursue them.

53:22Let's move on to your next point, which was the importance of finding your happy place and tribe. In your own case, you were living, I think in like suburbs of Dallas, moved to Boulder. You found your people with climbing. Talk about the importance of doing that for people and the challenges of it. Yeah. I'm glad you talked about the place and the tribe together because they really are very intertwined. And I have a somewhat contrarian or I guess maybe unpopular point of view on this, which is I actually believe the place where you live is as important, maybe even more important than your choice of life partner.

53:59And the reason for that is your life partner, let's say your wife or my wife, they can only influence your happiness so much. In fact, if you're relying on your partner to be happy, that's probably a recipe for disaster anyway. But the place you live, I refer to it as your aquarium. You're literally immersed in it 24 seven. It influences everything that you do. And one of the things that it influences is the community. So I'm a great example where I discovered rock climbing 25 years ago. For many years, I lived in Dallas and made it work, even though Dallas is a terrible place for a rock climber to live.

54:30It was very difficult for me to build a community of other climbers. And then finally I moved to Boulder and it was like a huge tailwind behind me all of a sudden. I'm literally staring out my window right now at rock. There's a huge community of rock climbers here. They're motivated. They're easy to meet. And so everything, it's like the rising tide that floats all boats. Everything just gets better when you live in your happy place. Yet so many people simply live where they live because that's where they live. And they have a vague notion that they'd like to be somewhere else, but they'll never take action on it.

55:03And so it's a huge thing for me. It's like, if you don't love where you live, then have the courage to move. And there's lots of reasons not to move, lots of excuses, family, work, whatever. I have found that where there's a will, there's a way. And if you really want to do it, you can find a way to make it work. Can you talk about how you went about it or how you'd recommend somebody that's living in some place, maybe they grew up in, they haven't left their hometown, they don't like it. How do they go about finding a good place, maybe taking little experiments to figure out where they want to be.

55:37Yeah, no, I think it's worth like, you should definitely visit some places and find your happy place. And there's a lot of factors to consider. It's sort of individualized. I think before we started recording, I had mentioned that we did a trial run of a month in Boulder before we moved here. And in our case, it was a no-brainer because if you're a rock climber or you're into the outdoors and you're still doing business stuff, Boulder really is like, it's not even close. Boulder's at the top of the list because you got a major university here. You've got a business community. You've got a major airport 30 minutes away, world-class climbing, running, trail running, everything right at your doorstep, great weather throughout the year.

56:12So those are all the factors we weighed and it was a no-brainer for us. But yeah, I mean, I think, you know, what I would say to people is start taking baby steps, you know, go explore a place, see what it feels like to live there, start doing the research, start getting your finances in order so that you can do it. In my case, I waited way too long and basically just ripped the bandaid off, like just said, look, we're moving. And to be honest, my family wasn't even completely aligned on this, but it was something that I needed. I was in my forties at the time and it's something I needed. And sometimes you have to make hard decisions on behalf of your family that may not be popular.

56:46You fast forward five years now and my family loves living here. It's like, of course, this is better than living in the suburbs of Dallas. Change is hard though. I'm sure you've got two girls. They probably had their friends in Dallas, all of that, like that initial step is you're going to get some pushback, I think. And that's to be expected in most people's cases. Change is hard, but people need to remember that all the good stuff goes to those who are willing to be brave and make bold moves, right? All the spoils go to the bold. Let's go to your next point here that you say is important for living a great life.

57:21And that's helping others, having an abundance mentality. That's one thing I've loved about being on Twitter, real estate, Twitter, or small business Twitter, whatever it is. People really have this abundance mentality of sharing their playbook, answering DMs. Talk a little bit about in your own life, how service, helping others kind of looks for you. Yeah. The secret is that helping others is actually kind of a selfish endeavor because the thing that most people don't realize is when you help somebody else, you are the biggest beneficiary, both directly just in terms of the way it makes you feel and the fulfillment you feel from that.

57:55But even if you play the long game, the good things you do always come back to benefit you. And you can call it karma, you can call it whatever you want. But I've seen it happen over and over as you're putting positive energy out there, you're helping others, everybody wins. And so that's on my ideal in-state life list that is explicitly listed as something that I want to make a priority. And to be honest, that is what Twitter has largely become for me. So I still have a policy today that I still hold to, even though it's a lot of work, which is I respond to all DMs and I end up spending hours every week doing that.

58:32So it is a burden, but I view it as an honor and a responsibility that I have. If I'm going to put this content out there, I need to be able to help people understand and implement it in their own lives. And so that's become an incredible conduit for me. And honestly, again, back to this idea of it being sort of a selfish endeavor, the feedback I get, I just got a message from a guy the other day. He said, Hey, just checking back in at five months later, you gave me this advice. Here's the changes I made and it's worked out better than I expected. I get chills right now just talking about that.

59:03That's what it's all about for me. Super satisfying and it does. It feels great. So I just really commend guys like you. There's others on Twitter that do the same, but it does take a ton of time to answer DMs and it's very generous. So thank you for doing that. You answered mine. So I appreciate it. Well, again, like it makes me a little uncomfortable when people say that, even though it is flattering, because to be honest, like a lot of it is just selfishly motivated. It's like, it just feels so good to do that, that I want more, more, more. Makes sense. The next list or the next item on the list was to avoid toxicity, avoid the haters, get toxic people out of your life, whether it's social media or in real life.

59:43Can you go into that a little bit about how you've gone about doing that, maybe how you handle negativity and haters online? Yeah. So I'm going to expand it beyond online to just life in general, because this is a lesson I wish I had taken to heart many years earlier, is I think we have a tendency to cling to relationships or maybe just let them linger with people who are taking energy from us. And I've really become convicted that in any relationship, there has to be at least an equal energy exchange. Like you have to be able to get back as much energy as you give. And it's always, of course, in different ways.

1:00:19And it's not always balanced in the short run, but over the long run, there has to be an exchange and it's setting boundaries if that's not the case. So, you know, again, having grown up amongst a lot of toxic relationships, it's been life-changing for me personally to set boundaries and hold to them and really think about, you know, who's in your inner circle and to curate that very, very carefully. You want people who can basically, who are positive and will help you grow as a person. And so, no bad vibes are allowed in my inner circle. It doesn't mean you don't have problems and you don't tackle them and help each other out.

1:00:56But again, in general, the relationships have to be a positive energy exchange. Yeah. It's the cliche about being, and it's true, but it is a cliche about being the average of the five people that you're around the most. So it's important to curate that very carefully. So true. Yeah, it really is true. So next point on here was the ability to say no. And this is a little bit kind of tied into that, just the ability to set boundaries. Talk about how you've gone about that. I'm sure you get a lot of requests on your time, your energy, your money. How do you think about saying no to things? Yeah, I think there's a seasons of life aspect to this.

1:01:32So I wrote something about this a while back where when you're younger, you need to be saying yes to most things like within reason, because you need to kind of put yourself out there, explore opportunities. But when you get older, let's say in your forties, fifties and beyond, you're going to find yourself needing to say no more than yes. And what it's really about is just living your priorities. If you say that something is a priority, you can't do everything. So if you say that something is a priority, by definition, that means you have to say yes to things that align to that priority and say no to things that don't.

1:02:02And so that's, again, one of the huge benefits of defining that ideal in-state life. It makes it really easy to know what to say yes and what to say no to. And once you have real clarity on that, you're going to get really good at saying no to things. I want to get into your podcast. It's called Compounding, and that's one of the other items on your list on how to live a great life. Talk about why you named it Compounding. It's a great podcast. I'll put links in the show notes to some of the episodes that I've listened to that I thought were really great. But go into that a little bit about compounding and the importance of it.

1:02:36Yeah. So my podcast is called Compounding. The reason it's called Compounding is I just think that's the key to everything in life. Small, consistent effort over time becomes exponential, whether you're talking about money or fitness or relationships, whatever you're talking about. The idea behind my podcast was to talk to exceptional people who have built great lives. They're not just had success in whatever career field they've chosen, but have built great lives. My podcast is quite different from most in the sense that number one, I do all of them face-to-face. I just think there's a dynamic that happens when you're face-to-face that doesn't happen through Zoom.

1:03:11But as a result of that, I do very few podcasts. So like in the two years Compounding has been around, I only have seven episodes. So I've really had to focus on quality over quantity. I'm really proud of each and every episode. And that really is the basis is like talking to people and learning from people who have been there and done it so that we can apply those lessons in our lives and start compounding the same way. There are great books kind of too that speak to this. Atomic Habits comes to mind about just 1 % improvements, incremental improvements and how over time the exponential growth of whatever habit you choose, whether it's money or fitness or whatever, you know, it's, it's pretty incredible the growth after a longer period of time.

1:03:48Yeah. I mean, look, I'm 52 years old and I will say my life is a testament to stacking 1 % gains. And if there's anything that sets me apart from my peers, it's that I never stopped. Like I kept doing things consistently and in a sustainable way. And what happens is over time, that doesn't just put you 10 % ahead of people that puts you 10 X ahead. And, you know, I'm not bragging, but I'm saying when you look at various aspects of my life, I feel like, you know, a lot of the people who were my peers 10 years ago are no longer my peers simply because of compounding. Maybe it was you. I can't remember who, but somebody said that the flex as you get older is being in really great shape rather than having a, whatever, a great title or a salary or something like that.

1:04:31Yeah, no, I said the tweet was, you know, under 40 money is a flex over 40 fitness is a flex. Cause if once you're over 40, lots of people have money like in big titles and whatever, but not many people have money and are really fit or really good at some other craft. So that brings me to the next point about three behaviors that you wrote about that would elevate anybody above 95 % of all people. Can you go into what those three things were? Yeah. And this was really just a funny way of highlighting the fact that the bar is so low out there, folks. Like if you want to get ahead in life, I'd said, you just need to do three things.

1:05:10And this is very sincere. So, number one is show up on time every time. So, just being reliable and consistent and showing up on time. That already probably puts you in the top 20%. Keep your promises, right? So, if you say you're going to do something, do it. Now, you're in the top 10 % probably, if not 5%. And then show enthusiasm for whatever you do. And those three things, I believe, actually, if you do those three things consistently, you're in the top 1 % of human beings. And it seems so simple, yet it's so rare for people to do those things. I had a friend of my dad's, he took his son to the DMV when he turned 16.

1:05:50And he was like, son, look around here. This is your competition. This is who you have to beat. And like you said, it's a fairly low bar if you do those three things. Well, honestly, even among successful, quote unquote, successful people, I'm astonished at how few people can actually just manage their time and show up. It's not that hard, like just to show up on time for things. Or if you say you're going to do something, just do it. And we're all busy. We all have that excuse that's convenient, but you either commit to keeping your promises or you don't. So yeah, I mean, it's almost impossible to not have success if you do those three things.

1:06:23Good points. I want to get into this next one, which is the importance of seeking truth or the importance of exploring religion. This was a topic that you went into with one of your guests pretty deeply that I loved. So can you talk a little bit about that, exploring religion, exploring the search for truth and how that's shown up in your life? Yeah. I mean, I like to think of myself as first and foremost, a truth seeker. I'm a Christian. So from a religious standpoint, that is what I practice. But even from a broader standpoint, I think that like you have to have a real lack of imagination to not believe there's a lot more to this universe than we understand.

1:06:59Right. I mean, you know, we learn more and more every day with the James Webb space telescope or whatever, like just how many billions, if not trillions of galaxies there are out there in all likelihood, there are many, many billions, tens of billions of earth-like planets. There's probably life out. Like what's the meaning of all this? Like, where did it all come from? And I think like at some point in life, you really got to start thinking about these bigger issues and make some decisions for yourself. And so, you know, I'm not one to push religion on anything, anybody. In fact, I never talk about it on my Twitter account, but all I encourage people to do is like, find your own truth.

1:07:33Like, you know, start asking those questions, start educating yourself because, you know, there's so much out there that is a mystery and that can't be explained by, you know, by humans or by science. And it's just absolutely fascinating to learn about whether it's outer space or religions, the different world religions and philosophies, all of it is super interesting and beneficial to anybody to learn more about and study. I think so. I think it's way more interesting. So I'll use this as an opportunity to talk about something because it ties into this idea of being multidimensional. So I've gone on a few, I would call high-end guys retreats, where it's like a bunch of successful business guys go away for the weekend.

1:08:15We go to Santa Barbara or we go to Mexico or whatever, you know, your listeners can probably guess at some of the types of groups I'm talking about. And the problem I have with those is they're insanely boring to me because a lot of these guys just want to sit around and talk about business 12 hours a day and God bless them. Like I'm sure that's going to help them be successful in that endeavor. But when I'm hanging out with people, I want to talk about a lot more. Like I love business, but I lose interest in that after a few hours and I want to move on to other subjects. I like to talk about these bigger topics and it's something that just doesn't happen much anymore.

1:08:47So that's a little bit of a pet peeve of mine is like, look, you owe it to yourself to at least like, ultimately a lot of the things we do in the day-to-day world, especially in the business world, they add up to nothing at the end of the day. Like on your deathbed, all that stuff adds up to nothing. What adds up to something back to our original point was experiences, relationships, and some of the big ideas and thoughts you've had over your life. Next one that I know obviously is super important to you being a rock climber is the importance of getting outside, being in nature, getting in touch with whatever our caveman tendencies are, you know, rootedness to the earth.

1:09:24Can you go into that? Yeah. I mean, for all of humanity's history, we evolved to live in harmony with nature and with the sun. And what's crazy is like modern man has existed for roughly 300 ,000 years. Only in the past 50 years, have we really retreated indoors and live under artificial lights, never come into contact with nature? It's kind of insane if you think about it, to think that that won't end really poorly. And we're seeing the results of that in our health, right? All these chronic conditions. So, I'm a huge believer in, you know, the answers are found outside. And so, you know, get outside, get sun exposure regularly.

1:10:02And that's a huge component of not just health, but of just living a happy life. I've got three kids that are often glued to screens, glued to video games, and it's like a huge challenge to get them outside. I saw a study done that kids that spent something like over two hours a day on video games are very likely to end up fat, lonely, depressed. I shared with them this. I'm like, you guys need to get outside, go on a bike ride, go swimming, do something. What I say to that is, duh. How is that not obvious to people. The last item here is you wrote about the grass being greener. And there's a quote I love called, comparison is a thief of joy.

1:10:42So talk about that final point about the grass often being greener on the other side. How do you avoid comparisons? Yeah, it's hard. I mean, especially in the age of social media, there's levels to the game. And no matter what game you're playing, there's always someone who's a level above you that you can compare yourself to and you feel like you've never really been successful. So I think that's part of it is like realizing, you know, finding satisfaction by embracing what you have. And that's something I struggle with, particularly because I'm a high achiever. I like to chase shiny new objects.

1:11:14I like to get better, to improve, to have more, all those things. But you really have to keep that in check. And when it really gets dangerous is when you get into this grass is greener type mentality.

1:11:28And And so when you've been with anybody for, you know, 10, 20, 30 years, it's really easy to have those thoughts about how much greener the grass is on the other side. But you have to check yourself and then remind yourself of all the good in your life that you're not embracing. And then all the bad that will come if, you know, you go chasing green grass all the time. That path only leads to misery. And I used marriage as an example, but it really applies in any area of life. So one of the things I mantra that I kind of remind myself of regularly is happiness is a choice. It really is like every day you wake up, you're going to view the glass is half full or half empty, and it becomes self-fulfilling.

1:12:08And so you should always wake up, choose to believe the glass is half full, and then little subtle behaviors and attitudes will make that come to fruition. I think you wrote like it's an asymmetric upside, right? By choosing to be optimistic and positive. There's no downside to choosing to be happy, but there's huge upside. And the converse is also true. Like, you know, choosing to be miserable, there's no upside whatsoever. Nobody wins from that, but you sure do lose a lot. Kevin, this has been awesome. I really have enjoyed going through this thread. I encourage our listeners to check it out on Twitter.

1:12:42For anybody that wants to get in touch with you or learn more about you, talk to us about a few ways they can do that. There's only one way. I mean, Twitter is kind of my hub for communication. So find me on Twitter at Camp 4, that's C-A-M-P, the number four. That Twitter handle comes from Camp 4 is the name of the climber's campground at Yosemite National Park. It was kind of the crucible of American rock climbing. And so many, many years ago, like 2007, when I signed up for Twitter, I got that Camp 4 handle. Anything else you want to add before we close out? Anything that we didn't touch on that you maybe wanted to talk about?

1:13:18No, Patrick, this has been a great discussion. So I invite people to follow me on Twitter and reach out through DMs if you have any questions or want to make a comment. Awesome. Kevin, thanks so much for your time today. Really appreciate it. Okay. Thanks, Patrick. Okay, folks, that's all I had for today's episode. I hope you enjoyed the show and I'll see you back here real soon. Thank you for listening to TIP. Make sure to subscribe to We Study Billionaires by the Investors Podcast Network. Every Wednesday, we teach you about Bitcoin and every Saturday, we study billionaires and the financial markets.

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