MI312: Start with Strategy w/ Dave Meyer

26:00Over time, luckily it became, but that was largely the product of market forces, just rapid appreciation. But that got me into the game and I learned a lot. And I was able to make a positive step for my financial situation, even though I didn't own 100 % of the deal or anything. And that gave me enough to sort of catch the bug and keep wanting to invest. When you were writing the book, did you have kind of an ideal reader in mind, like the kind of person that you thought, this is who needs this book, this is who should read and learn from what I need to share? I wrote this book a little bit more for people who are on the less experienced end of the real estate investing spectrum.

26:42I think the need is greatest for people who know they want to be investing in real estate, who recognize the opportunity that comes with investing in real estate, but feel stuck or overwhelmed by the abundance of choice. And so that might be people who have zero deals. I think that's probably most people. But I think the other group is people who start to scale. After you have two or three deals, it can be confusing about what to do next. A lot of personalities in this industry start buying massive multifamily complexes and raising money from other investors. And I don't think that's the way most people want to go.

27:21And so I think the book offers a lot of different options and suggestions for how people can scale and achieve their financial goals without really going outside their comfort zone or without sacrificing their personal time. They're sort of extending beyond their risk tolerance or anything like that. I've got a couple of guys. One is my barber. Another guy is in the trades, does some heating and cooling work for me. And they both want to get involved in real estate. And I've been talking to them for quite a while about real estate. Neither one of them actually pulled the trigger. There's a lot of different ideas and things like that.

27:57But what do you think are some of the things, the big things that just hold people back from making that first initial step? I think fear is the biggest one. Buying real estate, it's a capital intensive business. You need to have money. As I said, the concept of the resource triangle is that it doesn't need to be your money, but you do need to have money to get into real estate. This is not equity investing where you can start with$100. And so that I think is whether you have it or even if you have it, I should say, it's still a bit scary to put a lot of money into a single investment. And so that's probably the biggest thing that holds people up.

28:34But I think with a little bit of knowledge, you see that real estate is actually a relatively stable asset class. And this is the millennial podcast. And I've said many times in the past that I think millennials have this collective housing market trauma that sort of holds them back because we graduated into what was the worst real estate investing crash in the history of the country, at least as far back as I have data, which is about 100 years. And so we, I think a lot of people of my generation feel that's a normal occurrence. And you see that now with people always saying the last three, five years, the market's going to crash, the market's going to crash.

29:13It might, there is always that possibility. But if you look at historical precedent, it is not the most likely outcome. And so I think people see it sort of as the stock market where these big swings in valuation when in reality, it's not. And the other part of that is real estate investing, most people don't underwrite their deals or base their returns off of property values going up. It's much more about appreciation, paying off your loans, adding value to the property. And so I think when you understand this sort of holistic way that real estate can improve your financial position, it eliminates a lot of the fear.

29:49One part of the book, you talked about a resource audit, and I wanted to get into what a resource audit is and how that can help figuring out your vision and your goals for what you want to pursue in real estate. So like we said, the resource triangles, you need these three things. And so one of the first steps in creating your own strategy for real estate is to take a look at what resources you have available to you. And so this isn't very difficult. One is just taking a look at how much time you have and how much time you're willing to commit to your portfolio. So I think this is the easiest one because people can usually reflect on their own time and how much money they spend in a given week or month doing certain things and how much free time they have.

30:30And if you have a lot of free time, that's going to open up a lot of different options for you as a real estate investor. You can do really time intensive things like flipping houses or renovations. The other end of the spectrum, if you have five hours a week, there are still options for you. There are definitely ways to invest in real estate with five hours a week, but they're going to be fewer. So you need to figure out what kind of time you have. The second is the skill audit. If you are a contractor like, you know, your friend who's in the trades, they're going to have way more options to that they can contribute to their portfolio because they can do some of the work that themselves or they might be very good at vetting other contractors to work.

31:07So you have to understand what skills you can contribute. And then lastly is a capital audit and understanding what money you can contribute. And there are some steps in the book that help you walk through this. But basically, you want to understand what your investable assets are, which is how much liquid assets do you have? And then put a responsible amount of money on the side as a cash reserve in case things go poorly, and then figure out what money you are comfortable putting into real estate by doing this, by understanding what time you can contribute, skills, and capital you can contribute.

31:37Then at that point, you can start to narrow down the different possibilities of real estate and pick the ones that are most aligned with your resources and your long-term vision. Looking back over your own real estate investing journey and career, is there anything that stands out that you wish you had known in the early days when you were first getting started that like, man, if I had known this, it would have saved me a lot of time, money, energy, headache, heartache? So many things. Yes. I'll try and limit them. I think the first thing that I personally feel and I hear very commonly when I talk to other investors is knowing when to start outsourcing things.

32:17We've talked about my background working in startup, and then my introduction to real estate was sort of as the hustle, sort of the sweat equity. You get into this mode where you try and do everything yourself. And that actually not only is inefficient with your time resources, but it becomes inefficient with your capital resources. And you start to learn that it is more expensive in the long run to spend all of your time doing something that you can pay someone who's better at it to do, and you can focus on the things that you are actually good at. That's the whole basis of our economy is specialized in trade.

32:50And so I think you should take that into account when building a real estate portfolio. I don't know if you're familiar with Naval Ravikant, but he's got this idea where you set your hourly weight, what's your worth per hour? And he suggests setting it really high. I think he says like$1 ,000 an hour or$500 an hour, whatever it is. But anything that is less than that, that you are doing, he's like, outsource all of that. I totally agree. Yeah. I like that concept. And people think this is crazy because I'm a professional real estate media person, but I have a rule that I won't spend more than 10 hours a month on my portfolio.

33:25I just won't do it. I don't want it. I like real estate. It's a great thing. I like looking at deals. I don't want to manage my portfolio every day. I don't want to be talking about it every day. And so that's just a limit that I set for myself. That's the resources I am unwilling to contribute. That's changed over time. Like when I first started, I was putting tons and tons, I was doing 10 hours a week at least into these deals. And now as my life and my goals have changed, now I just reconfigure the resource triangle so that I'm in a fortunate position where I have more capital and I have more skill that I can contribute to my portfolio and therefore I get to put less time into it.

33:59I want to hear a little bit about how your own strategy has changed over the years. Has that shifted or changed year by year? And how often do you reevaluate what you're doing? It's changed dramatically. And that's one of the other main reasons for the book is, yeah, when I first started it, my idea of a good deal was just like anything. Could I get into it and did a cash flow a little bit? And the strategy for me then was I had to be able to earn my equity through hustling or house hacking or something like this. Whereas now I live in Europe. And so I can't be doing any of the repairs myself or much of the property management myself.

34:38And so I've almost gone from one end of the spectrum, which was highly involved, highly active investing strategy to basically entirely passive, where since I've moved to Europe, I haven't bought a individual property. I've only invested in funds and what are known in real estate as syndications, which is basically pooling your money together with other investors to buy large deals. And I do intend to buy more direct properties actually in the next couple of years. That's part of my strategy for 2024. But it has really shifted from one end of the spectrum to the other. I wanted to hear, which do you prefer?

35:14Do you prefer more of the hands-off approach of investing in syndications or as an LP? Or do you like more of the hands-on stuff, the nitty gritty, the sweat equity, grinding. Do you have any preference one way or the other on that? I love the passive investing. I'll be honest with you. I love looking at deals, but it stresses me out, honestly, to think about all of the individual details. It's honestly just not something I'm good at. Thinking about how to properly redo a property or planning out a renovation, that's not good for me. And so I like syndications because it allows me to focus on the things that I'm good at, the skills that I can contribute to my portfolio.

35:54I think I'm good at deal analysis. I think I'm good at location analysis and trying to identify places to buy. I think I'm good at vetting operators. These are things that I'm good at. And so I prefer to put my time into them and then let the people who are genuinely good and passionate about property management or doing renovations do their thing. And I do think for me, it will continue to be a combination of both, but I intend to lean more heavily into the passive investing avenue going forward. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. Hey, it's Sean O'Malley, just popping in with a quick message.

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39:43That's theinvestorspodcast.com slash TIP-finance. All right, back to the show. So that makes sense. You talked about analyzing markets, that you're good at that. What markets in the US do you find interesting and attractive right now? Well, that's a great question. And people ask me that quite a lot. And I think in the book, I try to be very clear that what markets are good markets is highly dependent on your vision and your strategy. Because if you want to be a flipper, you'll probably choose a different market than if you want to be a short-term rental investor or a buy and hold investor. There's also this sort of trade-off in real estate markets.

40:25Generally speaking, this is sort of a broad rule, but some markets are better historically for appreciation, whereas some markets historically deliver better cash flow. And so if you want appreciation, which generally there's this whole debate in real estate about this, I think it's kind of silly. Both are important. But appreciation, most people focus on when they're younger in their career, when they're continuing to work. that allows you to build up a lot of sort of this nest egg that you can invest later into your career. Some people prefer cash flow, but I personally believe that cash flow is more important later in life when you're approaching your retirement or you want to be financially independent.

41:00That's when cash flow matters. So again, what market you pick depends on where you fall along that spectrum. I will generally just say that if you're looking for cash flow, the Midwest is the best right now, as is a lot of actually New England is starting, particularly Western New York is, I guess New York's not New England technically, but the Northeast, let's say, is doing a little bit better. The Southeast, it continues to be the fastest growing markets in terms of appreciation. You see a lot of the fastest growing markets in Tennessee, North Carolina, South Carolina, Florida. Although Florida, I always joke, it's like the most polarized.

41:34If I do these analyses of like best and worst markets, like Florida is always the best markets. It's also always the worst markets. So it's both ends of the spectrum. And then the West right now is in the biggest correction. So we are seeing property values decline in a lot of places. It really is sort of like a East-West divide in the United States right now. Not necessarily on the Mississippi, but basically Colorado and West is performing the worst right now and the East is doing better. But I also want to caveat that by saying a lot of the cities in the West have the best long-term fundamentals, strongest population growth, economic diversity, economic growth.

42:14And so again, it really depends on your time horizon, like any investment. If you're investing for next year, probably don't want to pick something in the West. If you're investing for 10 years from now, you might want to. So it's hard to say any one individual market, it really has to be aligned with your broader strategy. So you're in Europe right now. If you were to come back to the US, what market would you focus on and what asset class? So if I was to buy directly, I am looking at a couple places in the Midwest, because just so we were talking about, a lot of the syndication and passive investing I do is focused on building equity.

42:50Because I am not someone who's going to personally take on large value-add renovation projects, I like to invest passively with people who are good at that. I do want to balance out my portfolio with cash flow. And so I'm looking more in the Midwest, probably with small multifamily asset classes, which is two to four units because those have some financing advantages. I wanted to get into a little bit about your own, like how you've built your own personal wealth. Like what has been the best avenue? What's been the, let's say your best investment. There's a lot of younger people that listen. They're trying to figure out how can I build my wealth?

43:26What would you say for yourself has been the biggest factor for building your nest egg? I think this is boring to say, but going back to school and getting a degree, a master's degree in a high paying, highly secure field has been a huge difference maker for me in my financial journey. One, having a high paying job is great, but it also allows me to take a bit more risk in my investing. So I feel comfortable investing in real estate projects that are more focused on equity building and might be a little bit riskier because I have a stable income that I feel confident in. And I know a lot of people get into real estate investing to quit their job, and that is possible.

44:10But I really think a lot of that is sort of Instagram selling something where it's like, oh, you can quit your job in a couple of years. Maybe you can, and maybe you want to, but there is a trade-off with that. Quitting your job and focusing on investing alone is difficult and it's riskier. The longer you build multiple income streams, the better. And so maybe that's the right advice is have these multiple income streams. Like I continue to work. I continue to, I plan to continue working and that allows me to be a little bit more aggressive and honestly more long-term focused on my investing because I don't need to cashflow tomorrow.

44:44If my property value goes down next year, I don't really care all that much because I'm not going to sell it. And so it's really gives you that stability and strong foundation that you can use to invest from. I like that. That's really good advice. I wanted to get into habits and touch on that a little bit. I wanted to hear what habit you personally wish that you had developed a little earlier in your career. I guess organizational skills and prioritization skills. I think it took me a long time to get good at learning how to like regularly look at all the things I have to do and focus on the ones that are really the most impactful and not necessarily the ones that are easiest or that I want to do the most or sound the most exciting.

45:32And I think I've gotten much better at that over the course of my career and like keeping this list in my head of what the most important thing I can be doing is. And that's been very helpful to me. There's a book called The One Thing. And actually, Josh Dorkin, the founder of BiggerPockets, gave me that book on my first day of work. Oh, really? And was it impactful? Did you read it and it made a big impact? It is. Yeah, it is. It's like, it sounds intuitive, but it's not as easy as it sounds. Like, even if you say like, oh, just do the most important thing, everyone's like, yeah, of course. But it does take a little bit of learning to figure out how to weigh different things against each other and sort of to do that prioritization process.

46:17I wanted to touch a little more on habits, but what do you think that the number one habit for new investors or anyone trying to build financial freedom needs to work on the most? What's the one thing that across the board you would say, this would be super helpful to develop this habit? That's interesting. I'm not a big habit person. I am a structured person, but I don't know if I have a specific habit that I would recommend just other than, honestly, it's just consistency. I don't know if that's a habit or if that's how you build a habit, but I think that's the difference I see in the people I know who are successful is just being consistent at the things they want to do.

46:57It reminds me, I think it's Woody Allen that said the quote, 80 % of success is just showing up. So just keep at it. Yeah. And I've talked about some of my failures. I've had many more that we don't have time to, but I think just knowing what you want and trying to be persistent about it is really the most important. So how is this book that is coming out in January, how would you say it's different from your first book, which was Real Estate by the Numbers that you wrote with Jay Scott? What are the differences between the two? They're quite different. So the Real Estate by the numbers, the book I wrote with Jay Scott is really about the finance and the math that goes into real estate investing.

47:38It is not complicated, but it is different than the ratios and ways that you evaluate a stock, for example, is different than the way you evaluate a particular real estate deal. And I guess this isn't a habit, but if there's a skill that everyone could get good at, I really just think deal analysis is the most important. If you learn how to do the math and how to craft the right assumptions that go into the math. That is really just the key to being a real estate investor. If you learn to underwrite well, what happens sort of in the broader economy is less important, especially if you're a long-term investor, maybe not if you're a flipper.

48:13And so that's what real estate by the numbers is about is really making it simple to understand like what you need to be tracking, what you need to be thinking about as you build your portfolio. Yeah. Whereas that's sort of very, very tactical, right? Like in the weeds, when you're buying a deal here, the formulas you should be using, the things that you should be thinking about. Start with strategy is sort of on the other end of the spectrum where it's really, it's called start with strategy because I think it's where everyone should start their real estate investing career. Before you get into analyzing deals, before you start picking what kind of deals you want to, you really need to pick what you want.

48:46Actually, funnily enough, I just said that, you know, I think the thing that's most important is knowing what you want and being persistent about it. And Start With Strategies really helps you know what you want. And I honestly, I find that so many people don't know what their financial goal is or don't actually have a specific goal or what they want their lifestyle to look like. And I know for some people that might feel like, oh, I'll get to that one day. But I truly believe that having a clear idea of what you're trying to accomplish is essential to accomplishing that goal. And so Start With strategy allows you to figure out what you want and then sort of like back into the right tactics, the right deals that will support that long-term vision.

49:26Can you talk a little bit about some of the prep sections that are in the book along with the journal component that I think you've included? Talk about that and how it applies to both new and experienced investors. Yeah. So the prep stands for the personalized real estate portfolio. And so in addition to start with strategy, which provides all the context and information. The prep is basically a business plan that comes with a book and you can fill out as you're reading it. And there's three components to it. The first is the vision, which we've talked about a bit in this interview. So you're setting where you want to go and why you're really getting into investing in the first place.

50:04The second part is what I call deal design, which is then taking that vision and combining the right elements of real estate investing into deals that work specifically for you. So that might be choosing between flipping and rentals, that might be choosing between active or passive management, might be choosing what market you're going to invest in, what property class, and sort of, you know, taking all the different ingredients, if you will, that are available to real estate investors and combining them into your own unique combination that's going to work for your vision. So that's the second one.

50:34The third part of the prep is portfolio management. And this is where things get really tactical. So you start with your vision, you get sort of set this high level vision, then you design your deals that you're going to pursue. And then portfolio management is sort of the day-to-day stuff. Figuring out, are you going to refinance your property this year? Should you invest$20 ,000 to add another bedroom onto this house? Will that improve your portfolio? Will that help get you closer to your goals? It also is where you sort of define your investment thesis. You asked me earlier, I think I skirted that question, sorry, about how often I evaluate my own strategy.

51:10And I recommend doing that once per year. And so this sort of this prep is this format that you can follow to evaluate and craft your own personal real estate strategy that's based on your own financial situation, your own personal situation and help you get towards your goals. So that's what the prep is. And then there's also a journal that comes with the book. If you actually pre-order it before January 30th, that actually comes free, which is awesome. Normally it's 30 bucks. So you can get that for free if you pre-order it. And it's basically a workbook to work through a lot of these questions because it's easy to say, hey, tell me what you value most in life and why you're investing.

51:46Some people, I definitely need some space to think through and brainstorm about what you're actually trying to accomplish. And so the journal has some questions and exercises that you can go through to help craft your strategy. Is there any other interesting, cool bonus content like that with the book? There's actually a lot. We're giving away a lot. So the other thing that comes with the book for everyone is what I call the strategy toolkit. And these are Excel. This is all coming full circle, Patrick. I was gushing about how much I love Excel earlier, but it's an Excel workbook. It's got about 10 different tools that can help you plan your strategy.

52:26So there's a financial planner, which helps you take your income, measure out all your expenses, figure out how much money you can contribute to your portfolio, you know, using your standard rate of returns or the type of deals you want to do, extrapolate how long it will take you to achieve financial freedom. There's things to help you with the resource audit that we talked about, like time budgeting and skill auditing. And so there's all sorts of different tools. Basically, my goal was to come up with a comprehensive way to get people into real estate investing in a way that feels comfortable for them and their personal situation.

53:01And so I just kept going. I wrote a book, then I wrote a journal, then I made a whole Excel thing and you get it all if you order the book. That's great. And it was a two-year process that you said from start to finish and produced by BiggerPockets, I presume? It is, but BiggerPockets has its own publishing department and it is publishing the book. I think I had mentioned I had a couple authors on, Ashley Kerr and Pace Morby, who both had written books and had the chance to interview them. I think I got them both right here. They're good books. Yeah. You got them back there? Nice. Nice. Yeah. Yeah.

53:34BiggerPockets, they do a great job really covering everything if you're interested in real estate investing, especially tactically. I said earlier, I wrote this book because I think people need help getting started and knowing what strategies and tactics to pursue. If you know what tactics you want to pursue, BiggerPockets is a great book for pretty much anything you can imagine that can teach you the nuts and bolts of how to actually execute on those strategies because my book doesn't really get into the day-to-day operations. They're really nicely produced books. They do a fantastic job on the actual books just look and feel great.

54:08So before we wrap up, I wanted to talk a little bit about your podcast on the market. There was an episode recently that you had the Zillow's chief economist, or he was talking about how people do not want rates to come down. I wanted to hear your thoughts on that. That seems a little counterintuitive. I've talked to a lot of people that are like, I'm waiting to buy, rates will come down. Maybe eventually that's when I'll buy. Tell me what his thought process was behind saying, no, you don't want rates to come down. So yeah, we had Zillow's chief economist, I'm forgetting his last name, his name is Orfez, his first name, was on and we were talking about rates.

54:46And I think there's a couple of things going on with interest rates. They're very high, obviously. It's really slowing down the market in terms of home sales volume, but prices are staying stable. And I think there's basically two camps of people. Some people believe that mortgage rates should stay high and hopefully can put continuous downward pressure on property prices until the point where prices fall and improve affordability. There are other people who perhaps are waiting, wanting to buy a home or an investment and can't afford it in current rates. And so they want to see rates fall. Or people who just have their nest egg and are planning to sell obviously don't want prices to go down.

55:27So I think there's really no right answer. I think it depends on sort of where you fall. I can give you my opinion if you're curious about it, but I think there is no real right answer. There was another episode too about just, we're at all time levels of consumer debt that came out recently on the podcast. Tell me what that means on your take for housing in general. I went deep into this one. I just went on a whole tangent in my life looking into this because I kept reading about how consumer debt was getting out of control and it's the highest it's ever been. And the short answer is yes, consumer debt is the highest it's ever been, but something like 80 % of that is mortgage debt.

56:08And so if you have a lot of mortgage debt in an asset that has been appreciating, you usually have a lot of equity with it too. And since property prices have gone up so much, it is natural that consumer debt has also gone up with property prices. Now, if you strip that out to look at the health of US consumers, I like to look at credit card debt because mortgage debt, I think many would argue is quote unquote good debt because it helps you finance in many cases an appreciating asset. Credit card debt, not the same thing. Very high mortgage interest rates. It is not helping you typically buy an investment.

56:41Sometimes it can, but just generally speaking. So that just recently topped$1 trillion and that is much higher than it's ever been. And so that I was like, oh, man, that's concerning. Until I went a level deeper and looked at two metrics. One is the percentage of disposable income that is going towards debt. So that's basically what percentage of people's income goes to paying off debt, whether it's car loans, student debt, credit cards. And it's actually down, which is pretty wild. So even though debt is way higher, incomes have also grown. And so you see that it's not down a lot, but it's down modestly.

57:17And so you see that even though debt has gone up, as a function of people's lives, it hasn't actually changed. Now that might change in the next couple of months, but that's just where we are today. The second thing that's getting really nerdy about it is if you look at debt as a percentage of monetary supply, it's actually about flat. And so everyone talks about inflation and how money printing has made things more expensive. Money printing also devalues your debt. And so even though you have a trillion dollars in debt, a trillion dollars is not what it was in 2019. And so you have to, if you're going to discount the dollar in terms of spending power, you also need to discount it in terms of debt.

57:54Again, you look at that, you see that it actually is largely unchanged over the last decade or so. And I'm not saying all of this to say that huge amounts of consumer debt is a good thing. I think in the long term, it's a dangerous thing. I just don't think it's an acute issue that just popped up over the last 6 to 12 months. It has been an issue for decades. And the level of that issue or the severity of that issue hasn't really changed that much. It's just still an issue. I want to be cognizant of your time, Dave. I really appreciate having you on the show today. Start with strategy. I'm looking forward to getting a copy of it.

58:30Is there anything that we didn't touch on that you wanted to cover today? Or do you feel like we discussed the book pretty you all? No, this is great. I hope everyone gets the point of the book. If you're interested in getting into real estate and want to figure out how to make it work for you, I hope this book would be useful to you. But you asked a lot of good questions, Patrick. So I think everyone should hopefully get the gist. Thanks, Dave. So for anybody that wants to buy the book or just learn more about you, what are the best ways for them to get in touch or purchase the book? Yeah. So you can go to biggerpockets.com slash strategy book.

59:05You can get the book there and you can see all the bonus content and all the other stuff that comes with it. Or if you have any questions for me directly, Instagram is the best place where I am at the data deli. The data deli. Love it. Dave, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Patrick. Okay, folks, that's all I had for today's episode. I hope you enjoyed the show and I'll see you back here real soon. Thank you for listening to TIP. Make sure to subscribe to We study billionaires by the Investors Podcast Network. Every Wednesday, we teach you about Bitcoin. And every Saturday, we study billionaires and the financial markets.

59:42To access our show notes, transcripts or courses, go to theinvestorspodcast.com. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any decision, consult a professional. This show is copyrighted by the Investors Podcast Network. Written permission must be granted before syndication or rebroadcasting. Thank you.