MI357: The Sloth Investor w/ R P Stevens

23:32Jack Bogle passed away. I want to say I think it's January 2019. And in the obits that he had, the obituaries, I think for New York Times, Washington Post, so many online obituaries, I think there was just one obituary for Jack Bogle. And I just thought about, wow, the kind of legacy, the influence that he's left in the world of investing and everyday people. I was just kind of really gasped at that. So I actually wrote an article on Medium, the platform, and I wrote, it bogles the mind. It bogles the mind. That was the headline. And that was really quite successful. And it caught on some online groups with Vanguard investors and so on and so forth.

24:08Yeah, it got widely picked up really. And that's what inspired me to think, well, you know what? People like my writing, that went down well. And it picked up from there. So the following year is when I really got into the book a lot deeper. I know we spoke about it briefly before the podcast started. But COVID-19, for example, in Hong Kong was incredibly difficult. The rules here were quite draconian. We couldn't travel back home, couldn't travel anywhere for that matter. And so, in a way, it's a blessing disguise. I think it was incredibly hard for everyone here in Hong Kong. But the fact that I couldn't travel summer 2020 and summer 2021, those two consecutive summers were the summers when I simply wrote the bulk of the book.

24:49I must those summers. I got the bulk of the book written. So I guess it was a gradual process. Another thing that kind of gave me the confidence was the success of my podcast, the Stuff Investor Podcast, and the fact that I've been able to kind of attract kind of high profile names like JL Collins and Brian Frold, you know, and my growth on Twitter, I started kind of like get attention from having high profile names like William Green, writers at the Motley Fool and so on. So yeah, it was a gradual process really of kind of putting articles out there and writing. I also write in Substack every two weeks as well.

25:21That's given me some confidence as well. I've got a following on there. So it's this gradual process of getting the book out there really. But I always thought, maybe I've got a book in me and I'm proud I've been able to get it out finally. So did you approach publishers then once you had completed it? Or tell me about that a little bit more about getting the book actually published. There's a lot of people who have written a book. I've written a novel, never got published. But tell me about that. Yeah, I must admit, I mean, I was naive going to... It's been quite a lengthy process. There was me thinking at the end of last summer, I think it was in the end of last June, June 2023, when I got the book written.

25:59And I naively thought, I can probably get this book out within a few months and perhaps Christmas and go back to UK Christmas 2023, do a bit of promotion, perhaps go into schools, colleges, businesses, give talks and so on. And boy, I was quite naive that it's been quite a lengthy process in terms of kind of copy editing, proofreading, getting the book cover designed. Publishing companies, they work with many other books at the same time as well. It's not just the stuff I invest in working, of course. I'm humbled enough to see that, of course. So it's taken quite a process, quite some time, sorry.

26:32So I'd say it's taken about kind of the best part of like eight to nine months to kind of get it ready, the whole process back and forth. There's an odd thing that may be needed tweaking in terms of a footnote here and tweak this chapter here and there. So it's been quite a lengthy process. It really has. And it's been beneficial, actually. It's given me a real insight into that process. And I guess it's given me a newfound respect for what publishing companies have to do. And my publishing company, Troubadour, have been really positive and helpful every step of the way. So if anybody out there is looking to get out there and publish, that is a company that I can certainly recommend.

27:04And they've done a great job in that respect. I want to get into that you've mentioned the five bedrock principles. So let's talk about those principles and then how did you come up with them? The five bedrock principles, they spell sloth. S-L-O-T-H. So S is simplicity. L is low fees. O is own the world. T is time. And H is headstrong. And I'm often asked for, hey, what do you consider to be the most important of those five bedrock principles? And I guess I don't really have one, but if I had to kind of like, if someone put a gun to my head and I asked me, I probably would maybe opt for simplicity because I go back to this fantastic quote by Jack Bogle, who has been such a profound kind of influence upon me.

27:47I remember there was a conference back in the late 90s, and he spoke about the fact that simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. And that really resonated with me. And so that for me is such a core tenet of my book as well, because I've written my book for beginner investors. The kind of like tagline slogan on my book is Simplify and investing for all. And for me, simplicity is so critically key because I think something that puts so many people off, and this was me when I was a young man, something that put me off is that I had a bit of an imposter syndrome. I come from quite a humble background.

28:20I come from quite a working class background. My father worked blue collar, very much worked manual labor and so on. So I certainly saw the heady world of investing as off limits to me that wasn't something I would even consider. So what I really want to try to articulate, and I think I have achieved in my book, is that simplicity is so critically key. And I think it's polar opposite complexity is something that puts people off. At times, they look at CNBC, they turn on the television, CNBC is on, they see the flickering neon lights, they hear the financial jargon. And I think they get put off by people on Wall Street, the traders and so on.

28:58So So simplicity is really key for me. And I guess an ally to that, if we're looking for an approach to investing that's defined by simplicity, then automatically that should imply, if it's a simple approach to investing, then it's low fees. So low fees, again, is just critically key. I speak again and again about compound interest in my book. And high fees are just going to compound. If you're paying high fees for an investment fund, they are just going to compound. They're going to really eat into your returns. And that's, again, why I'm such a admirer of Jack Bogle, who obviously founded Vanguard and first of the index fund, things 75 or 76, because just what he has done for the world of investing is incredible.

29:36I think back to a great book I read, I think it was by Robin Wigglesworth. He wrote Trillions. And he wrote about Vanguard and the index fund being the Manhattan Project of financial management. And I just love that. coming in the hills of Oppenheimer last year and the whole idea of the Manhattan Project. For me, the index fund is the Manhattan Project, is the Manhattan Project, your financial management. So low fees are critically key. And Own the World is an interesting one. So this again goes back to the importance of a diversified portfolio. And in this respect, I was really influenced by someone called Lars Kroger.

30:10So this is a Danish guy who used to work as a hedge fund investor in the UK. He wrote a great book called Investing Demystified and really enjoyed that. Really curious to learn more about it. It's a really insightful book. And again, again, Lars Kroger makes the point about, well, again, he's an advocate of Bogle and that's a simple approach to investing in low fees. And he speaks about owning the world. He talks about, for example, a globally diversified portfolio. What edge do we have as investors? how do we necessarily know whether we should tilt to the US or Japan or into Brazil, merger markets we don't know.

30:47He speaks there about this diversified portfolio. So it's Bogle, it's Lars Kroger, it's spoken to my father-in-law, all of these things are starting to percolate in my mind. I'm starting to synthesize what I'm learning. And tea time, of course, that is crucial. And again, I guess it ties back to what you mentioned before about just being patient. Don't react to short-term. keep that long-term game in mind. And if I were to show any graph to any beginner investor, it would be that long-term return of the S &P 500 or the Dow Jones over time, what it's done. And yes, there have been ups and downs, no doubt.

31:22And there have been times when perhaps the US hasn't returned so well in a certain period, or maybe global equities haven't. But over time, generally, the stock market as a whole, as an aggregate, it's generally gone up over time. So time, for me, is just so critically key. And then finally, it's headstrong. And thinking back now, I can vividly see the beginning of my chapter in Headstrong. I talk about the fact that investors' worst enemy, our worst enemy, is what we see when we look in the mirror. It's the fact that when we look in the mirror, we're seeing someone who is full of all these kind of like cognitive biases that kind of could deter us, put us off track from our desired goals.

31:58So it's that ability to be headstrong, to kind of block out the noise and to kind of like keep on the track of your investing journey that I think is key. I always kind of talk about, for example, what investors need, stock investors need in particular, is kind of a blindfold to not see the headlines. And like I said, earmuffs just kind of block things out, tune out the noise. So the importance of being headstrong. In my book, actually, I talk about cognitive biases such as action bias, recency bias, authority bias as well. That kind of goes into kind of the whole thing about paying high fees.

32:30Sometimes we see these kind of like figures, sharp suit, we're holding a briefcase. We see them as this authority figure. And I think too many people succumb to these impression amplifiers. And they think, okay, I'm going to place my word money in the hands of these people. Whereas ultimately, I think in 2024, a simple, low-fee, globally diversified approach to investing is what so many people can achieve. So it's not necessarily the case that you need to pay high fees to go in and actively manage funds. So that's kind of like, I guess, like a whistle-stop tour through my five-bedroom principles.

33:03I might just mention one more person, actually. who's surprisingly someone whose philosophy in investing is interesting. It's Michael Lewis, who wrote The Big Show and Moneyball. It was actually when I spoke to Eric Bautunas on my podcast, and he wrote a great book called The Bogle Effect, Eric Bautunas. And he spoke about the fact that when he spoke to Michael Lewis, Michael Lewis mentioned the fact that even with his background in finance and working on Wall Street himself, he is someone that invests in index funds as well. So that is something that I find interesting. This is someone who's kind of probably worked with Hollywood, the big shoe, Moneyball, and so on.

33:41But yet Michael Lewis is kind of humble enough to concede that index funds are the approach I take in my own money. So I just find it fascinating. Yeah. I mean, Buffett says it's the way to go too. It's like so hard to devote the time to be a good, if you're going to be an active stock picker, to actually do that as a retail investor. Really, really hard to do. Yeah. I mean, think about his own advice for his wife, right? We think about what he... You probably noticed, don't you? About when he passes away. It went on to forever, but there will be a time when Warren passes away. He's left the trustees with the simple fact that he wants his funds to be entrusted in, I think it's like 85 % in S &P 500 funds.

34:19So that speaks volumes for what Buffett thinks about index funds. Yeah. I wanted to get in a little bit to the own the world portion of that. So how do you do that in your own portfolio? How do you determine percentages and break it down? Talk to me a little bit more about that. I'm curious. I think it could be tempting to think, let's buy a North American fund with US and Canada. Let's buy a Far East fund with Japan, Hong Kong, China, and so on. But I think, again, if someone is going to go down that approach, again, that's going to lead to high fees because each of those funds, even if they are index funds, they are going to lead to high fees.

34:55What I love about what Vanguard has done is they've enabled investors, whether they're investors in the US or the UK, for example, Australia, they've enabled investors just to buy these low-fee, globally diversified index funds. So one that I invest in, for example, in the London Stock Exchange, it's got a ticker as VWRP. And it's simply the Vanguard FTSE All World Index Fund. And what I love about that is just, it's got this exposure. I want to say it's around about 65 % exposure to the US. It's got exposure, of course, to Japan, to Canada. So what I love about that is the exposure that the fund has is equal to what each country's representative share of the global stock market is as a whole.

35:38And that, for me, is what I advocate in my book when I had that section, Own the World, in my book. So that is something that I do. And again, this goes back to my belief in the fact that, well, none of us have a crystal ball. We don't know whether in the 2020s, The US stock market is going to continue to dominate. Will it be a merger market? Will it be Japan? We just simply don't know. So what's great about that is that it is for investors that don't have an edge. We don't know quite simply what the future is going to entail. And it kind of goes back to kind of that bogalism, if you like, of don't look for the needle in a haystack, buy the haystack, which I absolutely love.

36:13When I'm giving these kind of like beginner investor talks, I always, always, always go back to that statement. Don't look for the needle in a haystack, buy the haystack, own the world. It's as simple as that. What's great about that is that you just get that exposure to those markets that are doing particular. Hey, let's say there's that great eye-flying stock in Singapore. Maybe Japan starts to do well. India, people talk about India. I was watching... I'm really interested in geopolitics. I was actually watching a great interview with Neil Ferguson, one of my favorite historians. He was at Davos several months ago.

36:43He was speaking to some Indian economists. And he's quite bullish, if you like, on the Indian stock market. So I like the fact, in a globally diversified stock market fund, you're going to get exposure to India as well. What I would say as well, I make the point in my book that if we go to a restaurant, if you and I go to a restaurant, we are going to have a very different palate. Mrs. Sloth, my wife, for example, unfortunately, Mrs. Sloth doesn't have the same palate. I love spicy food and I happen to love Indian food. My kids and my wife, not so much. So when I go to an Indian restaurant, I want that hot.

37:15I'm going to UK in a few weeks' time. I love the culture there of curries. I love going to UK and I love the fact I'm having a spicy crow. Similarly, I think with investors, we've all got our own unique palette. I think the danger of investing today is I wouldn't want to kind of be considered a zealot where I say, hey, this is how you must invest and this is the only way. So I'm more than willing to see that there may be some investors who might say, you know what? I am someone who wants to put a good percentage of my portfolio, let's say 80 % in an index fund, a low fee global diversified index fund.

37:46But why don't I'm going to dabble? I'm going to dabble in some high growth stocks. I'm hearing about this tech fund. I'm hearing about this high-flying stockings from Singapore and so on and so forth. So I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Personally, what I would say though is that for peace of mind, I think that counts for a lot, the kind of swan approach, sleep at night. For peace of mind, I do only see, recommend actually, that for the majority of investors, having their portfolio allocated to a really high percentage in index funds is kind of the key way to go. But I can definitely see how some people might want to tilt slightly to maybe one region or tilt some individual stocks.

38:21But for me, owning a world of a low-fee globally diversified index fund is key as well. I had not heard that, the SWAN approach, sleep well at night. I like that. Sleep well at night. Yeah, I like that. I believe I mentioned in my book. And I think it goes back to this whole idea of what Jack Bogle mentioned. I think it's in one of his books. I know Eric Balthunis mentioned it in the Bogle effect, but he mentions this whole idea of relative predictability. And that's why it seems that index fund investors, they tend to behave really well because inherently, they recognize that over time, yes, there may be volatility in one year to the next, COVID-19, the effects of that, geopolitical phrase between the US China, whatever it might be, tariffs and so on.

39:06But over time, the stock market does go up. So it's that relative predictability that I think is paramount for me. And that's what I try to stress in my book, that if you just recognize that over time, the stock market will go up, there's that predictability to it. And I think that just wonders for investor psychology. And then do you recommend a dollar cost averaging method of investing, just having a set amount that you invest into index funds each month? Is that how you do it for your own self? Yeah, I would say so. I would say so just generally, you know, some months I'm going to be able to buy more shares, some months less, but generally keeping it simple, dollar cost average, pound cost average, euro cost average, wherever you are.

39:46But yeah, dollar cost average, that's what I would say, just keeping it ever so simple. And that's, again, something I touch upon in my book as well. So yeah, I'm all about simplicity. And yeah, the book's really driven at, tailored towards beginner investors. So yeah, dollar cost averaging for me is something I advocate. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. Hey, it's Sean O'Malley, just popping in with a quick message. If you like this podcast, well, I've got great news for you. We've got a handful of other shows for you to explore, from learning about Bitcoin to embracing a richer, wiser, happier lifestyle.

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43:26All right, back to the show. You've mentioned William Green, Eric, Brian Feraldi, I think. You've gotten some attention from some financial writers. I don't know if Morgan Housel is you're on his radar or not, but you've gotten some nice attention from people. So this definitely helps the book. I wanted to just talk about those relationships, like how they've unfolded, or how did you create a relationship with, let's say, William Green or Brian? How did that come about? I think it's just, for example, making an initial contact, outlining my philosophy, my five bedrock principles. And I think the great thing about my bedrock principles is that they're just evidence-based.

44:09Whether you're J.L. Collins or William Green, Eric Bautunas, Andrew Hallam, without wanting to sound egotistical, arrogant, I think people can see the evidence for simplicity, low fees, owner world, time, having a headstrong approach. And it's been really good. And if I could single out JL Collinson, particularly, he's been a pleasure to interview. I'm humbled by the fact that he's written the endorsement for my book, which is great. And something that has really struck me by so many of my guests and And something that has been kind of a recurrent theme amongst those guys, whether it's Andrew Hallam, JL Collins, for example, Brian Feroldi, is kind of optimism.

44:46And that's something that has really struck me. And it's funny, I was actually having a conversation with a friend a couple of weeks ago, and he posed me a challenge. If he had to come up with five alternative bedrock principles, what would they be? And I kind of struggled at first. But I think O for me would be optimism. I think it's so critically key for investors to be optimistic. And that's something that I love about JL Collins. He comes across as this really kind of avuncular guy, really charismatic, fun, kind of quirky in some ways, great sense of humor. Andrew Hallam is similar. So that's something that I've really taken from those guys.

45:21And even day-to-day for myself, if I put a best thing aside, we have days, some days are good, some days not so good. Kids are tiring. I've got two kids under 10. They can weigh you down, don't get me wrong. The rain in Hong Kong where I am can get you down at times. But just having that inherent sense of positivity and optimism, that's something that I've learned from those guys as well. And yeah, I mean, to anyone who perhaps is like me when I was in my late 20s and wanting to learn more, check those guys out. Check out The Simple Path to Wealth by J.L. Collins or Why Does the Stock Market Go Up by Brian Frode or The Bogo Effect by Eric Bartunas.

45:55I mean, these are texts that I would love to see in secondary schools in the States, the UK, Australia, Canada, wherever, France, Germany. I would love to see them. And that's something I'm really passionate about in terms of financial literacy and getting it out there and getting those books in secondary schools, colleges, libraries, universities, and so on. We've touched on that. You're an international school teacher. Is that part of your agenda is to try to increase financial literacy in Hong Kong and to your students? Is that something that is really a passion for you? Yeah, I'd love to. I mean, I've even started to formulate some ideas for what my workshop wouldn't tell.

46:33And I could give a bit of a sneak preview, actually. At the beginning of my book, I touch upon, for example, Bruce Lee and John Lennon, for example. They are two figures from the past that I admire. Interestingly, they were both born within five weeks of each other, Bruce Lee and John Lennon. I also, about a paragraph or two later, touch upon Serena Williams. So at the beginning of my investment talk, I talk about those three. I've got various props that I'm planning to use within my investing workshops as well, just to make it engaging and interactive. And I think that's something that I'd like to think sets me apart from perhaps other authors as well is that I work in education.

47:06I know how to captivate and engage an audience to sustain their interests. So yeah, that's something that I'm really passionate about, and I'm looking to do much more in the future. So financial literacy is really key for me. So how do you incorporate Bruce Lee and John Lennon and Serena into investing? What's the tie in there? I'm going to give you a bit of sneak preview here. So I'm going to talk about the fact, are you aware of the book Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell? Are you aware of Outliers? Yeah. So he talks about this, perhaps it's become a bit cliche now, but he talks about this kind of like 10 ,000 hours kind of notion.

47:43You know, so he talks about the Beatles, for example, in Hamburg and how that brought them great success and helped to lay the foundation for their future success. And then I started to read about Bruce Lee. I've read a few books, producer Bruce Lee. And again and again, you read about the training he went through, the people he worked with, the hours and hours of practice he went through. And I speak about in my book, I think it's the second or third page, watching King Richard. I think it was the year of COVID, maybe the year after, the movie about the Williams sisters. And I think one thing that kind of unites all three of those individuals, Lennon, Bruce Lee, and Serena Williams, is just so much effort, so much energy, so much activity.

48:24And I make the point to my audience that think about it, guys, in most realms of life, that's what we're taught, to pass exams, to kind of perfect our golf swing, to perfect our tennis serve, to learn an instrument and so on and so forth. It's activity, it's energy. But this is one of the kind of interesting things about investing is that investing is different. It's actually inactivity. It's kind of less effort that brings with us, that brings with it great rewards. So that's my reference to Lennon, Bruce Lee, and Serena Williams. The fact that, yes, for those guys, there's energy and activity and great effort that brought them success.

49:00But when it comes to investing, it's actually less effort. It's actually that sloth-like approach that brings with it great success. So again, this goes back to the whole notion of my friend, the humble sloth, why the humble sloth is the best animal to characterize successful investing. It reminds me of what attracted William Green to investing a little bit was like he admittedly was a little bit he's like a little lazy he said as a young kid and he's like the idea that i could just invest in something and make money just by you know using my brain a little bit and just sitting there and watching it grow really appealed to him yeah it seems incongruent doesn't it seems so incongruent that you know i remember growing up my mom would say to me you know roy just you got to read so much if you want to be able to get those top grades go to a top university read read read practice practice practice and i was i was always one of those guys at school, my predicted grades are always lower.

49:51So I would be someone from February to June, I would just cram. I would be doing so much revision in those four or five months before the exam, and I would end up getting a much higher grade than I'd been predicted. So again, it's just activity, energy. That's what we're taught from a young age, whereas investing, it's the polar opposite. It really is. I wanted to touch a little bit on... There's an investor I like. Actually, he's, I believe from the UK, Nick Sleep. I don't know if you're familiar with him. He's featured in Richer, Wiser, Happier. He had this idea of an X number, he called it, that once he hit a certain number in net wealth, he was going to retire from the world of active investing and pursue more philanthropic pursuits.

50:37And he did. He hit his number. I don't know exactly what the number was, but he did return the money to his investors and went on to pursue some charitable giving and things like that. Do you have a number like that in your head where you're like, once I reach this number, I'm going to, I don't know, whatever your hopes and dreams and goals are. Do you have anything like that? It's interesting. It's a really good question. It's something that I pondered about before I've spoken to friends, I've had members about it. I guess I don't really have a number. I guess for me, maybe it's more of an age, for example.

51:09I think about both of my parents. For example, sadly, my mom passed away at the age of 58. My father passed away a few years ago at 69. So in today's same age, they lived a relatively short life. They didn't even reach their 70s. So I would like to think, for example, I'm 41 now. What if I could get to 55? If I got to the age of 55, I've continued to invest like a sloth for the next 14 years. Could I, for example, perhaps, I don't know, at 55 retire? I've spoken to my wife about this. Maybe once I hit 55, would I be at the stage where I could retire? That's something I thought about. I can't say with any certainty that that is something that's going to happen.

51:45Maybe if I'm fortunate, if things get going well, I've got a fairly good size portfolio so far. Maybe it could be early. Maybe it could be 50. Who knows? But yeah, I haven't really thought necessarily about a particular number in terms of value, but it's certainly something I thought about in terms of age. Yeah, in terms of age. How about yourself? Is that something that's crossed your mind? door. I do. I think about it, you know, the 4 % rule. And I always think about like, what do my wife and I spend each year? And how much do we need to live the kind of life we want? And I like to go through those exercises.

52:15Yeah, I think it's fun to do. But I think the number keeps moving. You know, I think like that's the danger of money in a sense is like, you know, it's like more. The hurdle just keeps like getting higher and higher that you want to jump over. But But yeah, so that's why I admire Nick Sleep was that he was able to stick to his number and then pursue other things like once he hit the number. Hard to do, I think. And I guess there's so many factors at play as well. I think about if the UK government is going to kind of, you know, continue to increase tuition fees over the next 5, 10, 15 years, that's going to have an effect as well.

52:48Because I'd like to, you know, I wasn't fortunate enough to have kind of like have my parents pay for my university education tuition fees. But I'd like to think that I could kind of like help my kids out to an extent as well. So that's something I like to help them. And that's a key reason why I invest is to kind of smooth their path through life as well. So yeah, I mean, that could play a role as well in terms of what my kids' future will entail. Perhaps the career path that they choose might need a bit of funding. Who knows? Who knows what, again, known as a crystal ball, but all these factors come into play.

53:16But yeah, I mean, and that's something I would say to those people who want to get into investing and perhaps are a little bit more mathematically inclined, then that is something that can be interesting. they can begin to think about, like you mentioned, what's your number, whether it's a particular value in terms of money amount or an age amount, an age number. That's something that can be interesting to probe deep. And you can look at all these compound interest calculators, CAGR calculators online. If the stock market returns 7 % to 8 % per year, I could get here. If I up my investments per year, it's fascinating to look at all those what-ifs and the variables and so on.

53:51It really is. It is. It is. I was going to ask you your why. is I wanted to hear you've got two children. Is that, I wanted to know how you think about wealth. Is that something that you do want to create and generate for them? Or do you see dangers in that? Yeah, that's a really good question. I actually had an interesting discussion on LinkedIn about this recently because I'm really someone who's fascinated by the whole concept of anti-fragility. And I think it's Nassim Nicholas Taleb's got this book where he talks about this as well, how in life it's actually the fact that we need some kind of like shocks and we need some kind of disturbances for want of a better term we need to go far go through these kind of like times in our life where we experience those moments that cause us to kind of feel a little bit of pain and discomfort so i think it's about finding that balance as a parent so on one hand i definitely do want to smooth my children's part throughout life but put it this way i don't want to put everything on like a silver plate for them and you know give them a golden spoon i don't want to say, hey, here you go.

54:53I'm going to pay for this and I'm going to pay for that. I think it's about to find that balance because you want to ultimately cultivate that spirit of independence within them as well. I mentioned earlier that I love reading nonfiction. So if I put personal finance aside, there's a book that I love that came out a few years ago by John Heitz, an American professor at NYU, The Coddling of the American Mind. He speaks a lot about this. I love that book, he speaks a lot about how in recent years, particularly in the West, we've kind of been inclined to kind of coddle our kids, wrap them up in cotton wool and learn behind what we're finding is that too many people, too many young kids now getting into their teens and their 20s are not dealing with life as they should do.

55:33So I'm very aware of that as a parent. Having read John Hyde's book, I'm a parent right now. I'm very aware of, yes, I want to give my kids a better starting life than I had. I want to kind of teach them my kind of financial principles. but at the same time i don't want to kind of like make things too easy so that's it's a careful balance that it's like as a parent it's it's interesting i mean do you have kids yourself is that something that you thought about or i've got three stepchildren and it's something my wife and i talk about like what we want to leave with them or or not like you know like i do think there's a lot to be said for the anti-fragility thing and the coddling i saw an interesting stat yesterday on twitter about i think approximately 20 percent of parents are showing up at their college-age kids job interviews or calling the inner or the employer like getting involved in the in the interview process for their college-age child like so i do think there is some coddling there that really is as a concern to me i don't i don't think making life easy is you know life is difficult like it's not you're not doing your kids a service like by making things easy for them i don't think exactly and i think there's great validity and there's definitely value in you as they become older, getting them to save for things.

56:46I can remember when I was perhaps 16, 17, I saved money for my first hi-fi. I'd really gone through this phase of checking out my mom and dad's old vinyl records from the 60s. So my mom and dad went into the Stones, Beatles, Motown, Jimi Hendrix, and so on. And I thought, I want to get a hi-fi, a turntable, a CD player, the works cassette. And I can remember gradually, week upon week upon week, doing some chores at home. And when I could finally go into that store and buy the high-fired story for myself, it gave me such a sense of accomplishment. So I think there's a real value in doing that, not just handing things to kids on a silver plate and saying, Hey, I'll go out and get this and do this and that for you.

57:25I think there's a real purpose to kind of getting kids to strive and, like you say, not coddling them because there are dangers in our world of coddling kids too much. And what you mentioned is fascinating. Was it 20 % you said going to kind of interviews? I think it was around 20 % of parents are showing up at interviews. I mean, it's just madness. I mean, we're trying to cut, you want to kind of inculcate that sense of independence within your kids. And just to do that is just certainly doing opposite, isn't it? It's crazy. I wanted to touch on your podcast a little bit. You've had some really cool guests on jail Collins.

57:59You mentioned Eric about chunis or Brian Feraldi you've had on. Yeah. Brian Feraldi. Yeah. Yeah. Talk to me a little bit about some of your biggest takeaways from some of those guests and maybe things that you've implemented in your own life by speaking with them. I really enjoyed actually talking to Eric Balthunis. So Eric Balthunis, for those members of the audience who are not familiar, wrote a great book several years ago called The Bogle Effect. So he is someone I believe, Eric Balthunis still works for Bloomberg. He wrote The Bogle Effect, a really easy read, about 200 plus pages. and just the analogies that he brings up.

58:34He's, if you like, a Bogle connoisseur. He must have read every single book written by Jack Bogle. He's got this great analogy that he touched upon that I was unfamiliar with, The Hedgehog and the Fox. Are you familiar with The Hedgehog and the Fox? I love that. Oh, I love it. And I thought I was quite clean up with Bogle, but I love it. So perhaps I'll briefly go into it for your audience. So it's this Aesop's fable about, you know, the fox is very cunning, very sly, very devious, and do many tricks, multitask and multifaceted. Whereas a hedgehog just knows this one great thing, how to curl up on a bull, protect himself.

59:09The spikes can deter predators such as the fox and so on. Jack Bogle makes this great point about you can be someone who's great at this or that or so multi-talented. But if you've got this one great approach, like the hedgehog has that one great approach, just curl up on a bull, deter predators, that's what it takes. So, yeah, that's essentially Bogle. Boutounis probably explained it better on my podcast interview with him. But that kind of approach is just something that really, really resonated with me. So speaking to Eric Boutounis was great as well. And also, yeah, JL Collins. I mean, JL Collins is great.

59:44I mean, touching back upon my interview with him, one thing that he spoke about again and again and again is just a kind of debt, the unacceptable burden. I actually believe in the simple path to life. one of his chapters is called Debt, the Unacceptable Burden. He talks about how in our contemporary world, whether it's TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, etc., Snapchat, so many young people are so willing to keep up with the Joneses and see what their friends are wearing, clothes, shoes, etc., etc. So what J.L. Collins has to say in debt is really important as well. Andrew Hallam, he was delightful as well.

1:00:22And I love Andrew Hallam's got this great story in our podcast about when he met Warren Buffett. So he was actually teaching at a time, I believe, at an international school in Singapore. And he said to his students, hey, why don't I try and kind of like meet Warren Buffett? And I think he said to his students, you know, it won't happen. I won't try. And of course, kids being what kids are like, the kids are like, no, go, go, Mr. Hallam, go, you know, try, try, try. So he wrote a letter to Warren Buffett to Berkshire Hathaway. He got invited to one of the annual journal meetings. He went over and I think he actually met Warren Buffett.

1:00:54And then he thought to himself, what on earth? What do I give one of the world's richest men? What do I give Charlie Munger? And gosh, Andrew Hallam, if you ever watched this, you have to forgive me. I believe he might have actually given each a t-shirt with like a corny phrase on that. I'd have to look back at my podcast to remember what it was. But I think he gave them each like a t-shirt. And interestingly, that day, I think he also met Bill Gates. So Bill Gates happened to have been in town as well. So not only did he meet Buffett and Munger, but he also happened to meet... So in the same room as Bill Gates as well.

1:01:21So that was quite an interesting day, I think, for Andrew Hallam. But no, it's been a real privilege to meet Eric Bouchounis, JL Collins, and just kind of like circling back to what I said before, just that kind of overarching emphasis that they really have, particularly JL Collins and Andrew Hallam on optimism and positivity. And if I could just circle back to Hanum for a moment, Halum's got this great book as well called Balance, where he talks as well about the importance of experiences as well and what they bring to us and the importance of not attaching too much emphasis to things and buying things and the importance of what experiences can bring us as well.

1:01:59So that's something as well that I really took from our discussion of Halum and his book, Balance. So I could go into that a bit deeper later on. But yeah, I mean, I've really enjoyed speaking to those guests. It's really good. So it was Andrew Hallam wrote the book Balance. Is that what you said? Yeah, he wrote Balance. That was his most recent book. I believe that was around about two years ago. And again, that's more of a book that yes, it does dive into personal finance. But he also talks about just how in life we can achieve more balance, whether it's with our physical body, in a financial sense, and so on.

1:02:31He's got this great story about this town in Pennsylvania. I think it's called Rosetto. I'm not sure if you're familiar with this story, but it's about these Italian migrants that moved to Rosetto in Pennsylvania. And they're a really tight-knit community in the 1950s and 60s. They had one of the highest life expectancies in the States. I mean, this is incredible. People started to consider researchers, you know, what is it about these guys? Why are they living so long? And they started to realize it was the tight-knit community that they brought with them from Italy, perhaps from Sicily, Sardinia, I think it might have been.

1:03:01And Hallam talks about that, about the importance of these tight-knit communities, kind of ties into the whole notion of content of Blue Zones. There's that great Netflix series on Blue Zones as well. And then, yeah, and then Hallam later on in Balance, he talks about how, for example, sadly, that started to kind of wither away, that sense of community, and the fact that the life expectancy, again, has started to plummet. And why? Well, it's because the community is broken down. You've got these kind of like out-of-town malls that the residents started to move to. people no longer like leaving their doors open, knocking on each other's door, how you're going, and so on and so forth.

1:03:33So that is fascinating to me, this importance of community, experiences. And that's something that I briefly touched upon in my own book as well. There's a section where I've got 10 questions you may have and so on. And I do also touch upon the importance of experience. And that's something, again, I touched upon my workshop as well for beginning investors, experiences over things as well. That's so critically key. Yeah. There's a couple of people I've interviewed that have mentioned the book Die With Zero. And there's an idea in that book called creating a memory dividend fund. So basically creating a fund that the money is just siphoned off towards just creating amazing memories.

1:04:10Because at the end of when you're on your deathbed, you're going to remember the times you had with people and the experience you had and that kind of thing, rather than I had a huge pot of... They talked about the importance of really not being afraid to spend some money on really amazing experiences. I love that, the memory dividend fund. And yeah, I mean, that's something I have thought about. Given that I mentioned before, I want to sound too morbid, but both my parents didn't live into their 70s. And that's something I thought, I'm 41 years old, how long will I live? I live a relatively healthy life here.

1:04:46The kids keep me on my toes. But that's something that really is important to me as well. Just the important experiences, going out with the family to a great restaurant, going on a nice holiday, going out to the park. You can do things with your family that don't cost any money, just have a great time and build those experiences. And I think particularly in today's day and age, and again, circling back to another book by Jonathan Haidt, I think he's got this great book now about the anxious generation, I think it's called. He's just come out within the last few months. But again, you think about so many kids in today's world, looking at smartphones and so on, devices, get the kids away from the devices and get them talking to each other, emphasizing points of experiences as well.

1:05:23So yeah, it's really critically key. You had a Twitter post, I think, you asked outside of Buffett, who's the world's greatest living investor? Did you have any thoughts on that? Like what people said, or even your own thoughts on who you think that would be? It's interesting. I can look at it in several ways. So I think, for example, and I've got no insight into particularly, you know, how he invests on a monthly basis and so on, But in terms of, for example, if I was going to pick, let's go down an author. If I was going to go down an author who I know invests, I love Morgan Housel. It's perhaps become a bit of a cliche now, but I love his rights in The Psychology of Money, for example, what he's articulated in terms of, again, I know he is someone who's a firm advocate of keeping investing simple in index funds, for example.

1:06:08I think he's mentioned before, he's just got two simple funds. I think one is a Berkshire Hathaway fund. One is a globally diversified fund as well. So Morgan Housel will be a contender. I think I even mentioned on my Twitter, I think I actually mentioned on that occasion, J.L. Collins. I know he's known as the godfather of FI, of financial independence. So what J.L. Collins has done, I know he used to have these financial conventions in the States. The Simple Path to Wealth, he's written more recently Pathfinders. He spoke about that on my podcast. So J.L. Collins is someone who I admire greatly.

1:06:39And it's fascinating for me. He really is fascinating because he briefly touched upon this in Pathfinder, his most recent book, that even his style of investing has evolved over time. He talks about the fact that initially he was an individual stocks guy. And then gradually over time, he started to realize, you know, what do I know? Why am I investing in these individual stocks? And he started to kind of invest in index funds himself. So I love that humility. I love the humility of people like that who can kind of see the error of their own ways and are humble enough to admit that, you know what?

1:07:09This is what I've done. You might want to learn from me and so on and so on. Yeah, if I just had to pick up one, I probably would go for JL Collins, I think. How about you? Any thoughts about that? Any thoughts? That's a good question. I really like the last chapter of Morgan Housel's Psychology of Money. It's called Confessions, where he opens the hood to his own financial life and takes a peek inside. I forget who said this, but it's like, I don't really care what you think. Just show me what's in your portfolio. Everybody can have all kinds of ideas. is. But let me see under the hood and see what you're holding in your own portfolio.

1:07:42I really like that. And he dives deep into how he does his own... He and his wife and his family manage their money. And they've got a high savings rate. It's very simple. Like you said, they've got their house paid off. That goes against maybe traditional financial advice of not having a mortgage and being able to deduct the interest. But yeah, I found that really interesting, just the last chapter of his. Do you invest in anything outside of index funds, or do you like to keep it simple, like you said? I do like to keep it simple by investing in index funds. But it's interesting what you mentioned there about how's all paying this house off.

1:08:18My wife and I did the same, actually. And I think, again, it ties back into that whole notion of SWAN, of sleep well at night. It's a psychology of money in terms of... I remember when my wife and I were looking to buy property, this would have been about six or seven years ago. And And there are various agents in the UK saying, hey, but you could do this. You could kind of flip the property, buy two properties. But I think we just wanted that kind of like peace of mind, have it paid off, for example. And I think so many people underestimate the kind of significance of the psychology of money to phrase, to use a Morgan Housel book there.

1:08:49But yeah, so when I read that section of his book, that really kind of resonated with me. It really did. But yeah, in terms of investing, I do tend to keep it simple. I don't want to be a hypocrite and be accused of dabbing on things. So I do tend to, as my book advocates, keep it simple and low-fee index funds. And like I mentioned before, I'm definitely someone though, if someone were to say to me, hey, but what about if I have a little fun section of my portfolio, maybe 10 % where I dabble in some kind of like, some fang stocks or some high-growth stocks or, hey, my uncle works with this company.

1:09:22I'm all for that. Go for it. But just think about the evidence and have a core component of your portfolio in what the evidence has shown to have gone up over time, a globally diversified approach to investing in an index fund. RP, this has been a lot of fun. The Sloth Investor is coming out soon. How can people find out about you, find out more about the book, reach out to you, that kind of thing? Yeah. So I'm on X. It feels weird not to say Twitter anymore, but I'm on X now. And it's at sloth underscore investor. I'm on YouTube. My YouTube handle is at the sloth investor. And you can also check me out at Substack.

1:09:58So it is the slothinvestor.substack.com. My book is starting to come out now. For example, it's available on amazon.co.uk, Amazon France, Amazon India. It's available in the US on Barnes & Noble as an ebook at the moment, But I've been told by my publisher that gradually as we get deep into July and as the summer progresses, it will start to become available as we make deeper inroads into the summer. So I'm looking forward to investors around the world because it doesn't matter where you're from, anyone can invest like a sloth. So I'm really looking forward to getting that global exposure, getting more people to invest like a sloth.

1:10:30I really am. Yeah, it's a great idea. Great title for the book. I'll put everything you mentioned there in the show notes so people can find it and buy it and read it and hopefully implement it. But thanks a lot for your time, RP. I really appreciate it. That's a pleasure. Absolute pleasure. I really enjoyed it. And yeah, we've got some similar interests as well in the books we read. So it's been a real pleasure and honor to join you on today's episode. Thank you so much. Okay, folks, that's all I had for today's episode. I hope you enjoyed the show and I'll see you back here real soon. Thank you for listening to TIP.

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