REI177: Building Wealth One Deal at a Time w/ Patrick Donley

25:43So I would do a nice renovation, but definitely not crazy on the renovation costs. With the thought that in three to five years after renting it, basically, I've gotten most of my capital back from rent in most cases. And then at that point, I would do a second renovation, which was a really nice one with the intent to sell them. And so that's what I did in a lot of cases. One project that was interesting, I bought a four-unit apartment that had caught on fire. The fire department came in, hosed the whole thing down. When you walked in, two of the units were lived in by hoarders. And I saw these and I was like, I'm buying this thing.

26:24So I bought it for$10 ,000. We went through seven massive dumpsters just to gut this thing and took it down to the studs. I love that your instinct is, I'm buying this thing. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And again, it was like, most people would just be like, hell no, I'm not touching that thing. It needed a rebuild due... A portion needed rebuilt due to the fire. But yeah, it was probably the biggest project that I had done just in terms of the amount of work. And in each case, I view each project almost like, what can I learn from this? I really just want to learn as much as I can, develop as a renovator, learn what I can, the processes and the systems and how to get more efficient at it.

27:08And so by taking on this really bombed out four-unit building, I was just like, I don't know how this is going to turn out, but my basis is only$10 ,000. It can't go too, too bad. So that's kind of like a TIP, the Investor's Podcast. We're into value investing and Warren Buffett, Charlie Munger. And so that was always a thing of mine is having a margin of safety, buying below replacement cost in all cases. What would this building cost to build? And it sure as hell is more than$10 ,000. dollars. So I didn't do like a ton of, uh, like I've got a finance background, but it's like back of the napkin math, honestly, nothing, nothing crazy, but yeah, I did a hundred percent renovation on it.

27:54We always, I was going to say, we always say, if it doesn't make sense on a napkin, it's not going to make sense in Excel. Yeah, exactly. Right. And I don't think you need Excel, honestly. I mean, maybe in some cases, but for what I was doing, definitely not. And I heard you Nick say on one of the episodes I listened to yesterday that you need to have multiple exit strategies. When you go into a project, and that's how I viewed things as well. I was like, well, I'll renovate these things. I will try to rent them. But at the time when I was renting them, the rent that I was asking was way higher than anything that was in the area.

28:29So that didn't work. And I was like, well, the next option was maybe I'll try to sell it as a package. That didn't work. So I ended up doing a condo conversion. So I turned all four apartments into individual condominiums and sold off four different condominiums. And that worked great. It was super profitable. It was really a good project and a fun project. I feel really proud of taking a really crappy, crappy eyesore of a building and then turning it into something really nice that people want to live in and buy and that kind of thing. It's pretty rewarding. Yeah. No, I couldn't agree more. And I think that's one of the core principles that we try to abide by as well is we're not just in real estate to get wealthy.

29:20It's actually doing something good. And going back to what you said about value investing, one of my favorite real estate quotes ever is, I don't buy real estate because I think the value is going to go up. I buy real estate because I can make the value go up. And that's from Real Estate Trent on Twitter, an amazing follow. I want to dive into the project you just finished telling us a story about, maybe use that as a springboard to talk more about kind of fix and flips, because you had mentioned you'd like to keep more in your portfolio, but starting out, you needed capital to get to the next deal.

30:01And maybe some of them you couldn't refinance because you didn't hit the mortgage requirements or whatever it may be. Let's talk about fix and flips because I think they've been so romanticized on HGTV and all these shows that we all watch and everyone thinks a fix and flip is so easy. You get in, you paint everything white and you get out and you make 50, 60 grand, whatever. Fix and flips, in my opinion, can actually be a very risky investment strategy if not done correctly. So from your point of view, Patrick, a man that's done several of these successfully, what do you think some of the major pros and cons are and what's the strategy around a good fix and flip?

30:42Walk us through it. Yeah. I mean, to your point, Nick, it is definitely not a sexy business. Like shown on TV, absolutely it's not. And it's a job, honestly. It is a grind and you got to have the mindset like this is going to be difficult. It's not an easy thing. I mean, maybe some renovations can be easy. Like if it's just, you're just putting lipstick on something, but that's not the renovations I was doing in general. I was taking them down to the studs and doing a complete rebuild. And so that's a long, laborious, tedious process. And there's a lot that goes into it. I mean, the pros is like you said, you can force a lot of appreciation by doing this.

31:24I was lucky. I found a great neighborhood that was rapidly appreciating in value. And I was able to get in at a time where I could buy stuff. The stuff I was buying for 10, 12,$14 ,000 is now, they're$100 ,000 to buy right now. That neighborhood has gone nuts. And it's one of the reasons why I've transitioned out of there. The numbers just started not to make sense to me. It just was hard for me to get my head wrapped around the fact that there are homes that are selling for half a million dollars in a crack neighborhood. It's really hard for me to get my head wrapped around, but it's happening and people are paying for it.

32:02And so the cons is like, I would say it's the grind and it can be risky. If you don't know your numbers and you don't have a margin of safety, you can get... And you're taking on leverage, which I didn't take on a lot of leverage ever. I did do a refinance, Dan, that you asked about and pulled some equity out of the rentals that I had to do more fix and flips. But the key factor is not to get over leveraged. I think there's a lot of people that are out there right now that have gotten over leveraged, particularly if you've got an adjustable rate mortgage, you're in tough shape potentially. If you've had an adjustable rate mortgage at 2 % and now it's triple or whatever, more than triple, that's a tough spot to be in.

32:47But yeah, it's a good business. I think for a lot of early investors, it's a great way to learn real estate. You need to know the nuts and bolts of real estate from the ground up, ideally. You can farm that out probably to somebody else. But personally, I wanted to really know it and know how a house is built. And so I think that's one of the advantages is once you know how to build a house, you can add value to a lot of different things. It doesn't have to be residential. And And that's, you know, I'm segwaying to commercial right now. And it's the same kind of processes. It's just on a commercial office building.

33:25Great explanation there. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. In regards to actually like, so let's maybe pivot a little bit to the actual management of the assets. So because you mentioned, you know, we kind of went through, okay, renovating positioning of the asset, figuring out how to maximize the value, create as much value as we can. And now you're between having experience with multifamily assets, but also now making the segue into commercial assets. Where do you see the differences, but also what kind of strategies can you employ for listeners? But also, what do you do yourself to manage your rental properties successfully and what strategies you use to attract and retain tenants?

34:03Does that sort of start with a full scope kind of marketing strategy where you're really even building the property to attract the right, the certain type of tenant? Can you just give us a kind of rundown on your strategy there? Yeah, absolutely. So I was in this neighborhood every single day, grinding it out, rebuilding these homes and people obviously like they're watching what's going on. The first one that I did was directly across the street from a church that actually had a program that they would take women that were coming out of prison, you know, and that's a tough spot to be in. You're coming to prison and what are your opportunities?

34:40So this church would put them through a two-year program where they would give, you know, get them housing, make them get a job, make them go to AA or whatever, if they had drug or alcohol issues, make them go to church, like really gave them a sense of community and a sense of belonging and gave them a second chance. Right. And so I became good friends with the pastor. And after the two-year graduation, the pastor would often kind of vet potential tenants for me. So they would have to go find their own housing after two years. And since I was in the neighborhood, she would often, like I said, vet women that had done really well who would be good tenants or that she thought would be good tenants.

35:20And so in several cases, I would then rent to women that in one case, I'd been in prison for 20 years for murder, frankly. And most people wouldn't give somebody like that a chance. This lady was amazing, similar to my very first tenant who's lived in this condominium I own forever. Same kind of deal. Older lady, if you met her, she's like your grandma, just a really sweet, kind lady who took amazing care of the place. And what I found was I treated her really well with respect. And I think she wasn't used to that. As a result, it just paid off. She valued the opportunity to live in a very nice home and took great care of it.

36:04And I just try to take good care of my tenants in general. I was below market rate a little bit, but I wasn't doing it to maximize my cash flow. I like cash flow, don't get me wrong. But I also want to, if I can, I want to try to do some good in the world through fixing up these places and running them to people that need a chance. Yeah. I think we talk a lot about that on our show, which is like real estate is very much a relationship business and managing the relationship with the tenant. A lot of people want to say, oh, real estate is passive income. I mean, I don't even know if anything is passive income, like maybe Bitcoin mining or something like crazy like that, right?

36:45Dividend investing, but still like you're going to matter. Nothing's passive. Right. So I would say, you know, it's less passive and maybe more of a side hustle. And you have to factor in that, you know, you're providing a service to a customer and the customer is a tenant in that case. And so, you know, you've really figured out how to make it probably more passive by making sure that the relationship aspect of that business is good. That's probably like the core principle of good property management. I would totally agree with you there. Sorry, Nick, I know I cut you off there. So jump in. I think you had another question here.

37:13Yeah. Look, I wanted to, I know we're kind of jumping all over the place here, but we've got a lot to talk about and I want to get as much out of you as we can while we have you here, Patrick. So you have got a, obviously a great story. You're crushing it in real estate right now, but I want to talk about your experience with the podcast so far, because you are lucky enough to be the co-host of the Real Estate 101 podcast. Dan and I are similarly lucky guys where we get to have a podcast and put it out twice a week, but ours is really data driven. So unfortunately, Dan and I usually just talk to each other, which I'm surprised we haven't gotten sick of each other yet.

37:51You, on the other hand, are lucky enough to have guests on. And now when Dan and I had another podcast before this, kind of lived in relative obscurity, but we did have guests on weekly there. And I can say that every single one of those guests that we had on has earned to a friend, a contact, someone that I can pick up the phone and they will take my call whenever. Tell us about some of the great experiences you've had with guests, obviously, present company excluded, and then maybe some of the things that you're seeing that come up time and time again, right? Some things that you've heard different investors and different asset classes and the similarities in what they're saying, whether it's investing principles or just some fundamentals of real estate, any major takeaways from there?

38:32Yeah. Yeah. So first off, I mean, it's been an amazing experience for me to get the chance to talk to guys like you, to reach out on real estate Twitter and invite people on the show. And I love to learn. I literally just could learn all day long and listen to podcasts, read books. And so to get paid for it and interview people that are super smart, doing super interesting things, it's a huge blessing. I'm really thankful to TIP for the opportunity. And so it's been super cool and I love it. I've never done a podcast prior to this. And as you guys know, it's like a learning process for sure and getting comfortable with it.

39:09But it's been a lot of fun. In terms of the guests that I've had on and some of the commonalities, just what comes to mind is the importance of finding your niche. I think initially, it's important to have a general, obviously, understanding of real estate and how things work. But in a lot of cases, the guests that I've brought on have really found their niche and honed in on that and don't deviate and don't have a... I get prey because of the role that I'm in interviewing a lot of different people. I'm prone to the shiny object syndrome of like, oh, self-storage is cool. Or, oh, Airbnb is interesting.

39:49Or the different things that we all get exposed to. It's like, you can't do that. You've really got to focus and decide what your niche is going to be and drill down on that. Shiny object syndrome. It sounds like a very type A ADHD personality that's exceptionally popular, I think, in the real estate space. Yes, definitely. Definitely. Very characteristic of Nick and I, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I just think of some of the guests that I've had on Sean Sweeney, who's really popular on real estate Twitter. Got a pretty great following. He's got an awesome story. He was considering law school, decided not to go to law school, read Rich Dad, Poor Dad, a lot of different people, and it influenced and changed his life in many ways.

40:33He decided he wanted to get into real estate and took a job as a receptionist. And one of the themes I see with a lot of guests is early on in their careers, they're willing to do whatever it takes simply to learn, to be around great people who are doing what they want to do and humbling themselves and saying, I'll get coffee. I'll make copies. I don't care what. In his case, he told a funny story where he told a project manager that he knew how to new Excel and he had no clue how to do Excel, but he's like, I'll figure it out. And he went home and tried to teach himself Excel. And I think you got to have that kind of willingness to humble yourself and take the jobs just that allow you the opportunity to learn.

41:16And from that, if you're doing good work, it's going to get recognized. And if you've got the grit and persistence, like a lot of these different people do, they end up having careers that are amazing. Now he's a developer in Minneapolis doing incredible projects. For me, I'm just like, I need to think. Sometimes I'm like, I need to think bigger. It's just interesting to see what people do. And he's got a very normal, regular story. And that's what I've learned is all of these people are just regular normal people who have just found their niche and run with it. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. I think to use that also and touch on the shiny object syndrome that you mentioned, is there any specific trends that you're seeing in the real estate space or that you've picked up from listening to people on the show that you want to pursue?

42:05And how do you stay on top of what's happening in the space data-wise or what the new opportunities are? And then on top of that, has it really prompted you to try and pursue different asset classes? I know you mentioned a couple of other ones, Airbnbs, self-storage, etc. Where are you at on that? Yeah. So in terms of just following trends, I would not say that I'm as data-driven as you guys are. I definitely value data and it's super important. But I have my antenna up on real estate Twitter, I would say, is my primary means of just... If you curate the right people, you can get an incredible real estate education on real estate Twitter alone.

42:46And I think for any young person who is trying to learn, I would start there and follow the people that... Moses Kagan is a guy. Sean Sweeney, follow who they follow. Chris Powers is another guy. The Fort podcast is awesome. There's so many people doing amazing things and giving. They really have this abundance mentality of sharing their playbook. And so the playbooks are out there. You just have to find what attracts you. And like I said, just take some steps, take some baby steps and do it. In terms of shiny object syndrome, I definitely am guilty of that. I try to stay focused. My wife and I, I haven't really gotten into this, but she bought an office building and she's a mental health therapist.

43:26She's got 23 offices. And it's kind of like Salon Lofts is a company that rents out space to hairdressers. we're doing the same kind of idea, but we're renting out space, individual offices to mental health therapists. And so we thought that maybe when COVID hit, the pandemic hit, it was really going to kill the business model. What we found was people want to be face-to-face with a therapist. They don't want to be... I mean, this is cool what we're doing and being able to Zoom and do video calls, but for a therapist-client relationship, they want to be face-to-face. And so she didn't really have much of a downturn at all in terms of...

44:05There was a couple people that struggled to pay rent, but we worked with them. And so she ended up having a waiting list, basically, of people that... And I want to take a step back. She's created community. And so as a therapist, it's really hard... It's very individual and solitary and it can get lonely. And so she's tried to do a really good job of creating the community. she does this thing every week or every, not every week, every couple of weeks called shrink tank. It's not shark tank, but like shrink tank where they all get together and just like talk best practices or problems that they're having with a client.

44:40And, and she's, so she's done a really fantastic job of just building community with therapists and they want to be a part of that. Right. And so she's got a waiting list and we're like, we got married in September and, and she, we were like, maybe let's do another one. We've got many people that would do another office. And so just on a lark, I honestly didn't think this would pan out. We found an office literally about 60 seconds from my house in Columbus. And it's just a unique... I live in an area called German Village, which all the buildings are brick. And so it's like all the roads are brick.

45:14It's really a quaint little, almost European feel, a neighborhood. And this office building was two brick homes at one point, side by side. They connected the lot and at one point just created this entire commercial office building. And it was run by this somewhat dubious doctor, did pain management. And so he was just churning through clients like 100 a day, handing out prescriptions, basically, just a pill popper kind of guy. The DEA, the Drug Enforcement Agency, raided him last summer, shut him down and took his medical license away. And so this office has been sitting vacant for about a year.

45:53And so I found it on LoopNet. And a lot of people say you can't find anything good on LoopNet. I mean, I disagree with that. There are things on there. And we got lucky. This guy was in a bad spot and was forced. He took his medical license away. He had to sell this office. And we put a lowball offer in and negotiated, but we ended up getting it at a really great price. And now we're in the middle of a renovation. And it's a fun project. It's super creative, really interesting people that want to move in. As therapists, we love to work with them and figure out what they want and just create something that, a place where they want to work and see their clients.

46:32Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. Hey, it's Sean O'Malley, just popping in with a quick message. If you like this podcast, well, I've got great news for you. We've got a handful of other shows for you to explore, from learning about Bitcoin to embracing a richer, wiser, happier lifestyle. Just go into your podcast app and type in We Study Billionaires to find our collection of shows. We Study Billionaires is our flagship podcast, and we've made a name for ourselves over the years by interviewing the best investors in the world, including Ray Dalio, Howard Marks, Joel Greenblatt, and many, many more.

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49:50That's theinvestorspodcast.com slash tip-finance. All right, back to the show. I think the work that you and your wife are doing is fascinating. And again, it really shows that you can get so creative in real estate. I want to touch on something that's come up a few times, but we haven't done a deep dive on it, and that's exit strategies. Now, going back to the original question about fixing flips or any type of investment, to be honest, especially if you're pitching it to a JV partner or anything like that, we always like to have those three good, better, best, best case to worst case scenario exit strategies and have those modeled out.

50:34Now, that can be on an individual asset by asset basis, but it can also mean what is your grandiose exit strategy? Are you selling the whole portfolio and moving to a beach anytime soon? I know that you are in the middle of a reverse 1031 exchange right now. Why don't you tell us a little bit about that, what you're trying to accomplish there? And then how has it been working with your wife? Because I know that real estate investing, Dan and I both have very patient girlfriends. So shout out Steph and Nicole, that not Not everyone can understand the difficulties and the challenges that constantly arise in real estate investing, even when things are going really well.

51:16So tell us about the 1031, maybe your general exit strategy, and then love to hear what it's been like working with your spouse. Absolutely. Yeah. So in terms of the strategy, so what I've been doing is taking most of my investments in Franklinton, this gentrifying neighborhood that I've been working since 2014 and selling off piece by piece, house by house, that portfolio. And so right now I'm selling, it's kind of unique. There's two houses that I've sold. I'm in the middle of selling. And so a reverse 1031 is when you buy a property first, and then the relinquished properties is what they're called.

51:55The relinquished properties are the houses that I own in this gentrifying neighborhood that I have 180 days to sell. So I'm in the middle of that. One of the houses was in great shape when the tenant left. That was an issue. It was like, well, how do you deal with tenants? In terms of, I'm going to sell these things. So is it better to get the tenant, leave the tenants or get them out of there and do a renovation of them? So I decided to get the tenants out, which was very difficult because again, I developed friendship But basically, and this is not a good thing in some cases, I've developed almost a friendship with them.

52:28And so to ask them to leave their home was super difficult, really hard thing to do. It worked out very fortuitously in both cases. One lady, her father died and she inherited a home. The other lady found a little rental that was one street over. So it was amazing. It worked out well for all of us. So I asked the tenants to leave. And so I'm in the middle of renovating. It's two properties, but one of the properties has three houses on it. So it's got a main house and then like two mother-in-law suites on two lots, basically. And so basically all three of those need to get renovated plus this fourth home.

53:06So I'm in the middle of that, which is, it's a lot. I've got until May 31st to get these sold and we'll see how it goes. I don't know if you guys have ever, you don't have 1031s, I don't think, in Canada, do you? We don't. We're jealous. It's unfortunate. We don't have any of the fun stuff in Canada. Yeah. No, it's an amazing thing. And so, yeah, but it puts a little pressure on and I think it'll be fine. But yeah, I'm spending time marketing these homes and selling them. And I enjoy the selling aspect. I know the houses really well. I really enjoy meeting potential buyers and showing them. I like that.

53:45I love the sales and marketing process, probably more so than the actual renovations, which can, like I said, can be a grind. But yeah. And so we have bought this building together. And to your point, Nick, it's challenging at times. I'm not going to lie. You've got to have a really solid relationship with your partner if you're going to... With any partner. It's difficult. And especially if you're married or a girlfriend, whatever. In my case, we've got a great relationship. We've been together for seven years now and just really trust each other implicitly. But we butted heads along the way.

54:21It's like, you got to each have your own lane and stay in it. And so she lets me handle the renovations. And then she's really great with dealing with the therapists who are our clients and figuring out what they want and the final design touches of the office. Not of the offices, because they're responsible for that, but the waiting rooms and the bathrooms and just the art on the wall and that stuff. I turn that completely over to her and I'm like, have at it. So we've done well in finding our respective roles and we're definitely learning as we go along and we'd like to continue to do more of these.

54:56I think there's a definite niche and I think there's a lot of... Office spaces got crushed in many cases. I'm not sure what Canada has been like, but I got to imagine same thing in the US. Office space has just really gotten hurt and there's going to be more and more opportunities to do what we're doing, to pick up deals at a really good price. Because in a lot of cases, people are working from home and they're not wanting to be in an office anymore. Yeah. I think in the US space, you guys just hit for the first time over 50 % average office occupancy. So that's 50 % of pre-COVID. I think Castle puts out a really cool index on that.

55:36We only monitor one market, which is Toronto. In America, you guys would call it probably downtown Canada, but big city by all means. I think it's bigger than Chicago now, but we're at about 42%. So lagging for sure. I think the big difference is in the US, much stronger capital market systems where owners don't depend as much. They're more capitalistic. Whereas in Canada, we have a big problem to solve because a lot of pensions own big real estate assets in Canada. And so a lot of these bigger office towers, you're seeing some defaults happening in LA and San Francisco, even notable landlords like Brookfield, one of Brookfield's funds out there has defaulted.

56:17There's a couple of other ones. I think it's going to take some time to unwind, but I would agree with you. And much the way I feel about the entire real estate scope right now is this is going to create once in a lifetime real estate investment opportunities for the millennial generation. And so that is what excites me about the whole thing. Should we maybe jump over to the rapid fire round here? Do you want to do that? Yeah, let's do that. Yeah, I think that would be great. Yeah. So what's the most impactful book that you've ever read? So I'm a huge reader. I've been reading since I was a kid.

56:51And there's so many. I mean, it kind of depends, again, on the area that you're talking about. But in terms of real estate, there's so many. I hate to say rich dad, poor dad, but the cash flow book that he put out was a really important one for me. I think the concepts of Rich Dad, Poor Dad are great. The second book was called Cash Flow, which is really good, which just gets into the concept of how you generate cash flow for yourself and create a life of more freedom and having time wealth, like we talked about earlier. We are Warren Buffett guys. And I think the shareholder letters of Warren Buffett are amazing.

57:29It's certainly not real estate, but And the shareholder letters of Warren Buffett are an incredible read just to have great business understanding from an amazing... Basically, the Mozart of investing is what I would say. I would encourage anyone to read those. there's a book actually a guy i'm trying to get on the show it's called confessions of a real estate entrepreneur which i don't know if you guys are familiar with but it's a really good book written by this real estate attorney lawyer who's done a ton of different things and you know he goes through just stories of different deals that he's seen and participated in it's it's a great book to realize like just how vast and how creative real estate can be you know and and i would recommend people to check that out.

58:14Yeah. So those would be a handful. And there's obviously other ones like in fiction and personal development kind of stuff that have also had an impact, but we're going to stick to real estate here. I don't recommend reading any books. Just listen to podcasts. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, that's another, I recommend that as well. Honestly, I've really gotten into Audible. I listen to most things now. I don't do a lot of reading lately, it seems. And so yeah, listening to podcasts, listening to Audible, it's pretty amazing just to turn your car into a learning university as you drive around. I just don't even listen to music anymore, honestly.

58:51Yeah, same. Love that. Okay, next quick one here. What is your best investment? Best investment. So I'm hesitant to say this, but I mentioned this condominium conversion that I did, and I took the proceeds from the sale of those four units and bought a bunch of Bitcoin when it was in the$7 ,000,$8 ,000 range. And that's actually how I ended up at TIP. I was a big fan of Preston Pish, who has a show called Bitcoin Fundamentals. And got into learning about primarily Bitcoin in 2017 and went down the rabbit hole. I'm really into sound money and understanding the monetary system. It's like a sea that we're swimming in and nobody questions like, what is money?

59:39I think it's an important question to ask, like what is money? What gives it value? And he was very formative in my learning. So a shout out to Preston and Bitcoin Fundamentals. But yeah, that was my best investment. I bought, I kind of went all in at a low price relatively and wrote it up to whatever its high was, 68, 69 ,000. I've written it all the way back down, which is super painful. The last year has been very painful, but I continue to just kind of dollar cost average and just build my Bitcoin stack. So that's probably been the best one, frankly. I guess the last one is what controversial opinion do you have that goes against conventional wisdom?

1:00:25Controversial opinion that goes against conventional wisdom. I would say my Bitcoin premise. I don't think in real estate Twitter, most people in real estate Twitter have a pretty dim view of Bitcoin. I think for most people that have done a serious deep dive into really understanding it, like 10, 20 hours, if you put that time with an open mind to understand it, I don't think you're going to have the cynical views that I see in real estate Twitter about it. I think there's a lot of people that have seen... And it does piss you off when you see people making a ton of money on buying Bitcoin at a low price and like you missed out on that.

1:01:02That is a, you know, whatever. We all have greed and envy and jealousy. And so that's one that I just would say is somewhat controversial is my strong belief and high conviction in Bitcoin. Yeah, I'd agree. Real estate Twitter is a wealth of knowledge, but they can be mean on there sometimes as well. Maybe that's just Twitter in general. That's Twitter in general, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I think we're getting to the end here, Patrick, but obviously I want to thank you so much for having us on your show to interview you. It's definitely been very insightful and I've learned a lot about you and more about real estate in general, but I did want to see if you had any kind of last words, final thoughts, words of encouragement for our listeners, primarily those that are early on in their investing career.

1:01:51So any words of advice before we get out of here? Yeah. So first off, Nick and Dan, I really appreciate you having me on asking the questions or doing this together, organizing this. This has been a lot of fun. And I appreciate your time as well. But in terms of whatever, something I would say to guys early in their career, and I actually love talking to guys that are early and interested and hungry about real estate. I would say just you've got to become a perpetual learner. You've got to be continually learning. and there's absolutely no excuse not to really become an expert in whatever you choose to.

1:02:26And you've just got to put the time in. You've got to listen to the podcasts. You got to find the right people. You got to do the reading. You got to do the work. And then you can't stay in learning mode. I think too many people stay in learning mode. And I think I probably have been guilty of this off and on throughout my career where if I just get more knowledge and more information, then I'll be ready. It doesn't work that way. You just have to get in. You're never going to be 100 % ready. You're going to learn more by doing your first deal than you will reading thousands of hours of books.

1:02:57You just have to get started. And that's what I would encourage anyone to do. Real estate is an amazing opportunity. And there's always going to be opportunities. And like we said, you just find your niche and run with it. You're going to do well if you've got the right... Obviously, you've got to work hard. You've got to be intelligent about it. But there's a lot of potential for a lot of young people to make a nice life for themselves through real estate. Love it. Totally. Very well said. We're on your show, but the listeners, if they wanted to get in touch with you, where can they find you?

1:03:29What are your socials? How do people get in ahold of you or work with you? Yeah. So I'm on real estate Twitter, as we talked about a lot. So that's probably the best way. If you DM me, I'll definitely respond. Also through the Investors Podcast, you can reach out to me there. I've got my email, Patrick Donnelly at the investors podcast.com. I'll respond to anybody. Anybody wants to reach out. I'm happy to talk, share what I can. So those are the two best ways is Twitter and by email. So thank you guys. I really appreciate it. This was a lot of fun and looking forward to this coming up. Yeah. Thanks, Patrick.

1:04:03Okay, folks, that's all I had for today's episode. I hope you enjoyed the show and I'll see you back here real soon. Thank you for listening to TIP. Make sure to subscribe to We Study Billionaires by the Investors Podcast Network. Every Wednesday, we teach you about Bitcoin. And every Saturday, we study billionaires and the financial markets. To access our show notes, transcripts or courses, go to theinvestorspodcast.com. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any decision, consult a professional. This show is copyrighted by the Investors Podcast Network. Written permission must be granted before syndication or rebroadcasting.