TIVP008: VeriSign (VRSN): The Internet’s Toll Road w/ Shawn O’Malley

25:39This happened back in 2005, after VeriSign's first contract for the.net domain expired, and the company had to outbid five other competitors to retain its right to the.net domain. But after that, the right of presumptive renewal was added to VeriSign's contracts, making it almost certain that they'll continue to control these popular domains. To protect its obligations to internet infrastructure, Verisign doesn't rely on any public cloud computing services. Instead, it runs its own private data centers that give it complete control over its network, reducing its dependence on other companies' infrastructure and cybersecurity vulnerabilities.

26:15With a spotless track record of 100 % uptime, Verisign has never compromised on that core mission. Interestingly, though, one of the biggest steps to Verisign is the use of apps. When you use an app, there is no.com registration. Or if we all live in the metaverse, as Mark Zuckerberg has imagined, there would be a new version of the internet that makes the.com domain obsolete. So, you know, there is a chance that eventually the way we interact with the internet will change. And the emergence of apps as an alternative to websites is one example of how that could happen. But I also don't think Amazon is getting rid of the Amazon.com domain anytime soon, simply because their app is popular.

26:53It's not like VeriZone gets paid based on how many times a domain is visited. They get paid by domain owners continuing to renew their domains. And as long as there's a good reason to continue having a website, even if your company's app is more popular, I'm sure website publishers will continue to stick with the medium. On the margins, reliance more on apps, especially for smaller publishers, will contribute to lower rates of new domain registrations and renewals for existing domains. 100 years from now, maybe we won't have.com domains anymore. We'll have a new way to interact with the internet.

27:25But calling this a near-term risk for VeriSign is sort of a stretch. Realistically, the use of.com and.net domains is not fading away anytime soon. So VeriSign probably isn't going anywhere, but is it growing? Being a monopoly can be a tricky thing. On the one hand, you don't really have direct competition. On the other hand, regulators aren't keen to let you expand that monopoly power beyond the carve out they've already granted you. Perhaps it comes as a little surprise then that Verisign hasn't made an acquisition in well over 15 years. Now, before I go in any further into Verisign's growth prospects, let me say that the company does not agree with the classification of being a monopoly.

28:03For complete journalistic integrity, let me go ahead and read their statement from a 2024 blog article on why accusations of monopoly are unfair. They write, quote, there are nearly 1200 top level domains and more than 250 country code top level domains operating today. Each of these top level domains offer the same core functionality, allowing users to establish and maintain an online presence, establish websites and create email addresses. We continue saying, globally, there are over 362 million registered domain names, the majority of which are registered in top level domains not operated by VeriSign.

28:40The number of domain names registered not with VeriSign has grown consistently as those top-level domains have grown their share of the marketplace. In addition to this competition at the wholesale level, there are more than 2 ,800 ICANN-accredited registrars and thousands more resellers offering domain names at a range of prices and a range of packages to consumers. Finally, they add, quote, further from a practical perspective, the technical nature of domain registries requires that they each be run by a single operator. But with so many operators in the marketplace, consumers have a broad and diverse array of choices at a range of prices.

29:17Other top-level domains like.org,.shop,.ai, and.uk are not monopolies, and neither is.com. All right, so there you have it. The case for why VeriSign isn't a monopoly in the domain market generally. Fair enough. It's indisputable, though, that they do have monopoly-like control over the world's most common domain ending with.com, and that is at the core of their business's success. The fact that Verisign is so keen to play down their power in the market is, at least according to Peter Thiel, a telltale sign that they actually do have very deep moats around their business. As he wrote in his iconic book, Zero to One, quote, anyone that has a monopoly will pretend that they're in incredible competition.

30:01So, you know, I can't help but read that statement from VeriSign and think of Thiel's comments on how true monopolies want to understate their power and weaker companies want to overstate their power to make themselves look better to investors. When you have as good of a business as VeriSign, you probably don't want to brag about it and risk drawing scrutiny from regulators. It's better than to just let investors realize on their own how good of a business VeriSign is. Turning back to how VeriSign can grow, this largely comes from a few fairly intuitive things. raising prices for domain registrations, and an increase in the number of domains being registered.

30:36For years,.com domain registrations have consistently grown by a few percentage points a year. So this isn't plustering growth, but it's also not complete stagnation or decline either. You can also acquire new domains like it has tried to do with.web, though that has been tied up by disputes with competitors for the rights to it. And as another illustration of how VeriSign operates implicitly as a legal monopoly, there are strict limits on its vertical integration. The company is not permitted under its agreements with the Department of Commerce to own more than a 15 % interest in domain registrars because doing so would give them control over not just domain registration, but also the distribution of those domains.

31:13It would be like owning the farms that produce most of the country's food and then owning the grocery stores that sell food to people. That sort of vertical consolidation of business power is not something regulators want to tacitly endorse. It crosses just about every boundary for regulating competition that's been set over the last decade. On pricing, it's important to note that Verisign doesn't control its destiny here. They cannot raise prices at their own discretion. 2018, Verisign and the Department of Commerce added an amendment to their contract specifying the terms of price increases, and the company was granted the right to raise prices by a maximum of 7 % per year in the last four years of its six-year contracts for.com domains.

31:55For its.net domain, it could raise prices by 10 % per year. And the ability to raise prices at all is a big deal, given that Verisign's previous contract did not allow for any explicit price hikes. Verisign has to get approval to raise prices, and to do so, they have to convince the government that their costs are increasing, there's some competition impacting them, or that some investment is needed, like building out new security systems to protect the registry system. Or at least that's how things used to work. In many ways, the US government has passed along its oversight of VeriSign to ICANN in recent years.

32:30In an ICANN's charter, they express that their mission is to ensure the internet runs fairly, but they aren't a price regulator and prefer to let the market set prices. Thus, ICANN has removed pricing restrictions entirely from some of its renewal contracts with other domain registry companies. To me, this represents the most favorable regulatory environment for VeriSign in a long while, because ICANN is, generally speaking, going to be more flexible and tolerant than the government is. For newer domains, as mentioned, ICANN has moved away from price caps entirely, while some legacy domain contracts like VeriSign's.com and.NET domains have seemingly only retained price caps since those were set by the US government before it handed off greater regulatory powers to ICANN.

33:13The beauty of price increases is that those incremental revenues will fall almost entirely to the bottom line. At a retailer, when you sell more units of merchandise, you still have the incremental costs to acquire and sell those items to account for. But with Verisign, if they raise prices by 10%, there's no corresponding incremental cost increase. Almost all of that will become profit. And that is some pretty favorable business economics, if you ask me. And yet for a long time, they've often chosen not to raise prices, or were not permitted to do so for certain domains. Let me share some timely worldly wisdom from the great Charlie Munger on pricing power.

33:49He says, quote, there are actually businesses that you will find a few times in a lifetime where any manager could raise the return enormously just by raising prices, and yet they haven't done it. So they have huge untapped pricing power that they're not using. That is the ultimate no brainer. Verisign is one of the clearest cases of this that I've ever seen, given how valuable website domains are and the modest sum charge to ensure they remain accessible. Now, there is some debate over how you would classify Verisign's pricing power. Like we've discussed at times, it'd be more accurate to say that Verisign has pricing permission, maybe not pricing power.

34:27They could only raise prices by as much as I can and the Department of Commerce would allow them. And from 2012 to 2020, they weren't really allowed to raise prices at all. It doesn't sound like pricing power. That dynamic has changed, and VeriSign is permitted to raise prices by 7 % to 10 % per year, depending on the domain from 2020 through 2024, and the outlook has increasingly tilted from needing permission to being implied that VeriSign has its own pricing power. At$10.26 for.com domain, that is cheaper than 87 % of the cost of other top-level domains, so the pricing for.com domains is by no means aggressive.

35:03Domains like .biz and.info cost 50 % or more, and domains like.store cost$40 per year, or four times as much as VeriSign charges for.com. There's a pretty strong case for VeriSign charging much higher prices, and if that comes to fruition, that would be a huge boon for returns. The biggest risk factors for a company like VeriSign, beyond the lack of control over pricing and the low but still possible chance of losing out on contract renewals for its domains, stem from cybersecurity. Since VeriSign underpins the functioning of the internet, which is really not exaggerating at all, there is no shortage of actors who would like to compromise its systems from sophisticated individual hackers to nation states.

35:45This puts a substantial burden on them to remain at the cutting edge of cybersecurity, fending off the most advanced attacks there are. Ransomware, social engineering, attempts to physically break into its data centers worldwide, just about anything else that can be conjured up by nefarious characters are all on the table for VeriSign to deal with daily. Besides the cost of maintaining robust defense systems and investing considerably in training employees on how to mitigate these threats, there's the potential reputational risk of VeriSign having a critical failure. I'm sure CrowdStrike had what they thought was a robust set of systems in place until suddenly they didn't in July 2024, sparking outages worldwide and causing millions of Windows devices to crash.

36:29After the stock initially collapsed 40%, it still hasn't recovered from that debacle. A similar incident at VeriSign would probably have equally grave implications, if not more so. Such a failure, if egregious enough, could spur ICANN and the Department of Commerce to look for someone else to maintain the dot-com registry, dealing a crippling blow to VeriSign's core business model. On the bright side though, if there is a so-called extraordinary expense tied to dealing with the fallout of a cyber attack, for example, VeriSign is permitted under its contracts to raise prices to account for these higher costs.

37:02This is all well beyond my area of expertise. And while I do find the constant risk of cyber attacks concerning, I suppose that this is the price to be paid for having one of the world's most profitable businesses legally protected by recurring contracts. With any company, really, you could drop a worst case scenario that scares you out of investing. These kinds of idiosyncratic risks are the exact reason why diversification is such an important concept in investing. If we like the business enough, all we can really do is trust that Verisign's nearly spotless track record will persist and size the position accordingly in our portfolio to further protect from black swan events.

37:39Another risk worth mentioning though is Verisign's economic sensitivities. For example, a relatively weak Chinese economy over the past few years has resulted in fewer people paying for domain registrations. That, paired with regulations from the Chinese government, making it more difficult to register and operate web domains has contributed to what the company has described as a, quote, substantial worsening of their business in China. Since 2019, revenues from China have fallen over 30%, from$119 million to$80 million. That$40 million headwind is only 2 % to 3 % of the company's total revenue, but that is still painful, especially for a company that isn't growing quickly and doesn't have many ways in the short term to grow either and offset that.

38:21I think another risk is the impact of AI. The way we search for information and interact with websites is definitely changing, and Google is the most obvious illustration of that. Whereas all searches previously led you to some website, Now some searches have AI explanations up top that make it unnecessary to ever visit a website. I have trouble seeing how this won't eventually lead to there being fewer total websites, because we'll have alternative ways to access information, making a number of websites today just redundant. Some researchers expect that by 2026, a quarter of all searches will be displaced by chatbots and AI summaries.

38:56That would mean significantly less traffic from many websites, hurting their business models and leading to a spike in domains not being renewed, as publishers opt to just close down their websites if they aren't profitable anymore. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. Hey, it's Sean O'Malley, just popping in with a quick message. If you like this podcast, well, I've got great news for you. We've got a handful of other shows for you to explore, from learning about Bitcoin to embracing a richer, wiser, happier lifestyle. Just go into your podcast app and type in We Study Billionaires to find our collection of shows.

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42:39They do have some data centers that they need to invest in maintaining, but for the most part, they churn out a ton of cash flow they can't do much with from an operational perspective. While Verisign doesn't pay a dividend, they do allocate roughly 100 % of their free cash flows to share repurchases, meaning they buy back a lot of stock, typically around 3 % of their outstanding shares each year. Looking at the company's Q3 results in that quarter alone, they spent over$300 million on share repurchases, which is more than a third of the free cash flow they generated in the previous 12 months.

43:11In the underlying business, though, there have been some hiccups. In 2023, the rate at which domains were being renewed fell by a full percentage point. The number of new domain registrations declined from 9.9 million to 9.3 million. At the same time, the total number of registered.com and.net domains dropped by 1.1 million to just under 170 million. During the frenzy of the pandemic years, domain registration was significantly pulled forward. Verisign's domain registrations jumped by 15 million during the pandemic, and that kind of double digit percentage leap in domains is not common. So there was a substantial increase in domains during the pandemic, which doesn't surprise me.

43:52It seemed like everyone was starting a new business while they were stuck at home or some weird cryptocurrency, and there was a ton of money sloshing around to support companies, and all that is a good recipe for more websites being built out. But as things have moderated and returned to a more normal environment, there's been a hangover in domain registrations. Another explanation, which would be more concerning is that the domain name market has matured significantly, and many of the most desirable.com and.net names have already been registered, thus making it harder for new entrants to find valuable, short, or relevant names, reducing the incentive for new registrations.

44:26This explanation makes some sense to me. While there's an infinite number of possible domain names, there's a finite number of ones that are actually useful and valuable. Nobody wants the domain name wmff32400xyz.com. Obviously, I made that up and that's the point. It's possible, but it's not claimed because it's not useful. And domains that were once useful may become obsolete. As part of a marketing stunt, it seems someone actually does own blockbuster.com, but that's a good example of a domain that would otherwise no longer be relevant today. I'll also mention that there are some trendier top-level domains that have popped up in recent years like.io,.co, and.xyz, which we mentioned earlier.

45:08I see this with a lot of tech companies, and they're seen as flasher alternatives to just using.com. On the margins, if you have more website publishers being attracted to those domains, then of course you're going to see some declines in the number of.com and.net registered domains. Also, many of today's startups might be more drawn to having a presence on social media or just using their app, and they may never even set up a formal website at all. It's hard to say whether the decline in.com and .net domains will continue, but it has been a very tangible headwind and one explanation for why the stock's returns have been flat since 2022.

45:43Despite weakness in domain registrations, sales have held up for VeriSign and grown, rising by a few percent a year, totaling$300 million of sales growth from 2020 to 2024. I attribute that mostly to VeriSign raising prices to more than offset the declines in total domain registrations. While the stock has only delivered a return of just over 2 % in total since 2020, it has grown free cash flow steadily at an average rate of more than 5.5 % per year. Given that the company generates around$850 million per year in free cash flow, I'd say the company is very conservatively leveraged with just $1.1 billion in net debt.

46:20And that doesn't surprise me at all. This is a company where caution and safety are foundational to its identity. They oversee the internet's infrastructure and they take that responsibility extremely seriously as they should. So whether it's with their cybersecurity efforts or financing, they tilt toward the old expression that it's better to be safe than sorry. They could support considerably more debt, which could be used to more aggressively buy back stock and return capital to shareholders. That would be at odds with the company's conservative ethos. Firstline's management knows that it has a very special financial asset in its hands, and it doesn't want to jeopardize that.

46:53They have what you might call a golden goose in their dot-com registry business. This golden goose is so valuable that using the cash flows it produces to do just about anything else could dilute the overall quality of their business. They don't want to take the cash from their golden goose and go buy a regular dairy cow with it. If they can't find better uses for the profits being generated by their business, I have no issue with management consistently returning that money to shareholders. We have talked about this a fair bit with AutoZone last week, which has been as aggressive as anyone in buying back stock.

47:24But with AutoZone still, there was a template for growth, even if the company relies on it less than it used to. They know how to set up successful new stores, and when they see the chance to do so, they will. Otherwise, they return cash to shareholders by repurchasing stock. With VeriSign, as we've covered today, there's really no similar growth playbook. VeriSign can't just decide to start investing in more stores if it wants to grow its business like AutoZone can. Seas Candy comes to mind as a similar investment from Buffett previously. Seas does not compete in every grocery store aisle with Hershey's.

47:55Yet, I'm sure Buffett is fine with that because some businesses like Seas and Verisign are only great at a certain size or in a very specific niche or geography. For these businesses, growth is actually destructive and therefore the cash is better utilized elsewhere. That doesn't mean a toll road business like Verisign isn't compelling though. Highly profitable businesses with virtually no competition seldom come along. As Buffett once mused about, owning the one toll bridge from Michigan to Canada would be a great business, and I'd say Verisign is the digital equivalent of such a business. Verisign's business is so predictable that it's almost like a bond.

48:32I know Buffett has used the metaphor that all stocks are actually just bonds with unpredictable coupons. Still, I make the comparison specifically with Verisign because there's a high degree of certainty around its earnings. Just from reading their financial filings, I can tell you over the next six years when they can raise prices for the.com or.net domains and by how much. I can also tell you the number of registered domains. And given that this number doesn't fluctuate much, I can tell you with much higher certainty how much revenue VeriSign will earn in three years than I could for just about any other company out there.

49:05And I also know that VeriSign's profit margins have hardly moved over time. So again, I can not only confidently predict a reasonable range of revenues, but also the company's earnings by multiplying those revenues by the company's average profit margin. Even if I like AutoZone long-term, I couldn't say with any confidence what will be happening with the company three years from now, and AutoZone is one of the more stable businesses out there. With dynamic and fast-growing companies, knowing what the future looks like is even harder. I can't imagine trying to anticipate what Tesla's business will look like in five years with much confidence, given how quickly things change with that company.

49:40But Verisign is clearly the opposite. So predictable that it teeters on bond status since bonds have defined payments over a number of years. With companies like Tesla, you can pay a hefty premium for the stock today and get bailed out by fast growth and its underlying business over time. Modestly overpaying for a fast-growing tech company is not necessarily a big deal. Yet with a bond-like company such as Verisign, the price you pay for the stock is everything. Let me make the point with a bond example. I'll keep the numbers super simple to follow along with. Let's say there's a corporate bond that pays 7 % interest per year for five years, and the bond costs$1 ,000 to buy.

50:20At the end of those five years, you'll get your$1 ,000 back, but we'll have made a return of 7 % per year in the meantime from$70 annual coupon payments. That sounds pretty great. A lot of other people will notice this deal too, though, and also wants get paid 7 % per year with little risk. And so the price of the bond will get bid up. Now the same bond costs$1 ,200 but still pays the same$70 interest. So instead of offering a 7 % annual return, it now offers a current yield of only 5.8%. By paying a higher amount upfront and getting the same interest payments, your return in percentage terms falls off.

50:57And then when you account for the fact that if you pay$1 ,200 for a bond that pays you only$1 ,000 in five years, your return actually falls off even further to less than 3%. The point being simply that by paying 20 % more for the same bond, your return drops off from 7 % a year to less than 3 % a year. With bond investing, price is everything. And the opposite is true too. By paying less than$1 ,000 for the same bond, your annual return would jump up to greater than 7 % a year. I'm taking you through the math to say that with Verisign, the share price is everything. More so than with other types of stocks that have more growth, and the price paid for the company's steady future cash flows will largely determine whether Verisign is a satisfactory or unsatisfactory investment.

51:41At this point, I'm now overstating the predictability of Verisign's business because it can, of course, fluctuate. Domains can fall off or grow faster than expected, and the company may not make use of price increases that are legally available to it. That said, comparatively speaking, this is about as predictable of a business as it gets for a public company. Now, let's actually look at Verisign's valuation and decide whether the company is indeed attractively priced. Since 2018, the median price to earnings ratio that investors have been willing to pay for Verisign's stock is 31, but today that number is down to 24, slightly above its lowest levels over the last decade.

52:19Even though it's down, I still wouldn't say 24 times earnings for a business with almost no growth is cheap. But yes, this does mean that comparatively speaking, the price of owning a share of Verisend's high quality business today is on the lower end of its normal spectrum. Assuming that we are through the worst of the weakness in Chinese domain registrations and that domains will no longer keep declining and will instead grow by 0.5 % per year on average, alongside the assumption that the company will raise prices for its.com and.net domains in the coming years without completely maximizing price hikes to the full extent that they're legally allowed to, while also continuing to use their cash flows to repurchase stock aggressively, I get an estimated growth rating for cash flow per share of almost 10 % per year.

53:02Clearly, there are a few different assumptions baked in there. If we were to instead assume that demands continue to decline slowly each year, with Verisign making up for that by taking full advantage of the price hikes they're legally allowed to do, then the estimated annual return again comes out to over 9%. If ICANN eventually grants Verisign the ability to do unrestricted price hikes, then returns could be dramatically higher. The same is true if the price to earnings ratio reverts back to its long-term average. Both of those optimistic scenarios could easily generate double-digit returns, which would be wonderful outcomes considering that not much business risk is being taken to earn them.

53:40Even in scenarios where domain registrations fall off more dramatically, dropping by more than$15 million over the next five years. So long as VeriSign takes full advantage of the price hikes permitted by ICANN, I still get an estimated growth rate in earnings per share by nearly 8 % per year. So anticipated price hikes can pretty well absorb the negative effects of a scenario where declining domain registrations persists. As with any model I put together, the aim is to help me think through a range of plausible things that could happen in the coming years and consider how that would affect my returns.

54:13When even the pessimistic scenarios lend themselves to acceptable returns, with even more upside if a few things work out positively in your favor, then I definitely get interested. I want investments where I'm not at risk of losing much, but can potentially benefit substantially. My baseline scenario here is that free cash flow per share will grow by about 8 % per year, thanks to higher domain prices and share buybacks. And And thus, I'd expect to earn an 8 % return correspondingly from current price levels. At the time of recording, according to Moody's, the long-term interest rate on investment-grade corporate bonds is about 5.6%.

54:48So if we really do see VeriZine's stock as being similar to a corporate bond with perhaps slightly more risk, then I get between$220 and$230 per share as my estimate of intrinsic value for the company. An expected return of 8 % per year from that fair value isn't going to deliver market-beating returns, but you're also not taking the same kind of risks as the broader stock market either. When you buy the S &P 500, you're not getting a monopoly with a contractually protected business at the foundation of the internet. You're getting a mix of high and low-quality businesses facing a range of different competitors valued in aggregate well above historical levels.

55:25Not to discourage anyone from buying an S &P 500 index fund, My point is that the S &P 500 is not the perfect benchmark to use for a company like Verisign. Given the strong moats around Verisign's business that make its operations so steady and profitable, and also provide a floor for the plausible worst case outcomes that could occur, I feel very good that on a risk-adjusted basis, Verisign is a wonderfully simple, enduring, and attractive business to own. But if I wanted to get relatively low risk, 6 % to 8 % returns, I just go out and actually buy corporate bonds. Sure, there's some upside here too, but there's also a potential downside.

56:03For me to be really excited about Verisign, I need the share price to be lower. I think a fair value for the stock is about$220 per share, as I mentioned a few moments ago. So to give myself a margin of safety, I'm not interested in owning at any price above$200 for the time being. Realistically, I probably don't want to pay more than$190 per share. At those levels though, I think a 12 % or higher return is quite plausible. As such, at any price below$190 or$200 per share, I may add VeriSign to the intrinsic value portfolio. At the time of recording, the stock is above that threshold, so I'm not expecting to immediately build a position, but we're close enough that Mr.

56:41Market may give me a chance to do so in the coming weeks or months. Unlike with Alphabet, where I'm a bit more flexible on price given how much that business can still grow. With Verisign, I need to be very strict on pricing. The next question then is on position sizing. Since Verisign isn't a compounder that can substantially grow its business over time, I don't expect to have more than 10 % of the portfolio allocated to Verisign given the opportunity cost. It will probably be much less, if any at all, and its role in the portfolio would reflect that it offers more attractive returns in cash, while also probably not being the type of home run that will single-handedly carry the portfolio to double-digit returns for many years.

57:18I hope to scale the position to be maybe 3 % to 5 % of the portfolio over time, but if it remains at current prices or higher, or if there are some changes to say how quickly its domain registrations fall off, then I'll pass on the opportunity. Here and in our free intrinsic value newsletter going forward, I'll keep you updated on what happens. In a way, you could argue that Verisign is well beyond my circle of competence since I know nothing about cybersecurity or technically know what they're doing, but at the same time, I think the business is pretty straightforward. Despite the jargon associated with talking about internet infrastructure, VeriSign really is basically just a toll road company.

57:54Once you get a grip on how its contracts are structured and its relationships with domain registrars, you realize it's not all that complicated of an opportunity. If some critical technical failure occurs, then yes, the investment would be in trouble, but you could say that about any company. Maybe I'm naive, but from everything I've read, VeriSign is a well-respected operator and is seen as trustworthy in managing the infrastructure that it oversees. And I do feel that from a business perspective, at least, I clearly understand what's going on, even if I couldn't explain the nuances of how the domain name system works technically.

58:27But I can recognize that Apple is an excellent business without knowing how to build iPhones. As always, let me send you off with a quote. From the Oracle of Omaha himself, he says, time is the friend of the wonderful company, the enemy of the mediocre. I'd like to add that if you've enjoyed this conversation about Verisign today, you should check out our Q1 2025 Mastermind episode discussion on We Study Billionaires, where I joined Tobias Carlisle and Stig Brodersen to discuss the merits of Verisign. Tobias actually is the one who pitched the company, but I gave him some feedback on basically the bear case.

59:04And I think you'll get even more out of it after having the context of listening to this episode. That's all for today. I'll see you next time. Thank you for listening to TIP. Make sure to follow the Intrinsic Value Podcast on your favorite podcast app and never miss out on our episodes. To access our show notes and courses, go to theinvestorspodcast.com. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any decisions, consult a professional. This show is copyrighted by the Investors Podcast Network. Written permissions must be granted before syndication or rebroadcasting.