TIP790: Wealth Beyond Money w/ Thomas Mueller-Borja

30:13Trey Lockerbie, Ph.D.: You know, Thomas, whenever I look at some of the macro trends you see right now, especially with the public debt situation, and it's there for everyone to see, of course. And I'm kind of curious to hear how you think about it. And I'm going to give you all kinds of biases I probably shouldn't. To your point before, whenever you're talking about that real estate, to some extent, historically, at least, have been very much a fixed income play. You also see monetary debasement right now. Real estate is to be better suited for leverage just in general, where you can be helped by that debasement in the first place.

30:50And so how do you position yourself whenever you look at the public debt situation across the developed world? We talk a lot about cap rates, which really is just another way of saying yield. But effectively, these cap rates are correlated to, I guess, risk-free rates as sovereign rates, but not to the normal rates, but to the real rates. And so, you know, in an ideal world, when the front end of the curve comes down, the whole curve comes down, and with that, your cap rates come down, which means, you know, cap rates effectively being the inverse of multiple, your capital value of your asset increases.

31:34Now that's great in theory, but now we live in this world where sovereign indebtedness is at a level where, guess what, people aren't that convinced that the debt levels are sustainable. And so when central banks start to cut rates rather than the curve coming down, it actually steepens. The term premium increases, as we like to think. And what that does is because the correlation is with the four-year or the five-year or the 10-year yields, it means that part of the curve doesn't come down and so your cap rates don't come down. So what does that mean for us? Well, it means for us from a relative value perspective, if we want to participate in that potential upside, upside.

32:25And this, you know, we underwrite in a market neutral way. So all these market risks that we can't control, we don't necessarily want to bake into our base case underwrites, but when they do happen, then they should be upsides. But if we want to participate in that upside, we probably need to look to countries that have lower levels of indebtedness so that you can benefit from cap rate compression. And so we quite like Sweden, for example, where debt to GDP is 35%. We quite like Germany where even with a trillion euros of fiscal spend, that to GDP will be probably somewhere in the 85 % range. But it's not like what we're seeing in France or in the UK where all things equal a little bit more nervous around the fiscal picture.

33:16So that's a very long way of saying it does really matter because real estate is correlated to rates in the fixed income space. I probably lost everybody.

33:31It's such a complex question though. Thank you for daring to answer it. I think it seems like everyone's asking themselves that question these day. So perhaps it's just my own echo chamber. There's a Buffett quote there somewhere. All right. And so I know I'm sort of like asking you a question that's sort of difficult. I don't know if it's really difficult to respond to or very, very easy to respond to, but it's about the meritocracy in a big corporation. I know we all have different paths to where we are. I'm thinking about a massive organization such as BlackRock. how much is a meritocracy? I'm not asking you to be like 88%.

34:13That's not so much my intention, but it's more like, how do you define if someone is XYZ good? And so what do I mean by that? In something like sports, in most sports, you can measure things quite objectively if someone is good at something. But then I'll, and I don't know, in school, you could be like, who got the best grade in math or whatever. I don't necessarily think you, on your team, I'm sure everyone is doing well on their math test, but how do you measure and how do you quantify who rise through the ranks in an organization such as BlackRock? How is that related to the culture? How is that being rewarded and how are incentives aligned?

34:54I feel like I'm putting you on the spot. I'm going to get you into trouble. That's not my intention at all. It's more like I see how difficult it is in a small organization and I'm like thinking okay x that with a thousand and then all the complexities that you then see i love getting in trouble by the way so that's totally fine so how do i sort of measure success within the organization i think you know like ultimately we're talking about investors here right and so it does have to do with investment performance and you know i think you can measure mistakes and I think we acknowledge that we all make mistakes but the important part is that we get better at what we do at least directionally and so I think success is becoming better at what you're doing consistently and doing that with purpose and with drive and so what impresses me is you know members of the team who are intrinsically motivated who are self-starters who bring a lot of energy to the team who have what i would consider hustle and do that consistently in a non-selfish kind of way like i do think that those people sort of move can move through the ranks very very rapidly so you know we have some very talented young members of the team who are incredibly creative great lateral thinkers who combine iq with eq and just have that special source that they bring to the equation and i think it's particularly that combination of iq and eq as an investor that is so important because again there's definitely a buffer quote in there you know you've got to be smart enough but then it's all down to temperament right it's it's about your emotional intelligence and that's not just empathy that's self-awareness ability to self-regulate and and i think that's incredibly important as a message like i have one moment when i was reading kardemann's thinking fast and slow and he was talking about system one and two and this is sort of referring to my point about self-regulating in his book he says that he's not optimistic that one can get better at regulating system one, as in like intentionally sort of controlling your flight and fight response.

37:27And that never sat well with me. I always felt like that can't be true. And so then I sort of discovered this whole other world of how one can do that through meditation and sort of probably slightly more spiritual Buddhist principles. But I do think the ability to actually do what Kahneman thinks is really, really hard to do or impossible to do. I think that sort of is something that can be a real success factor. And I see it over and over again. Well, thank you, Thomas, for providing this wonderful bridge here. Now that you do talk about spirituality, I have to invoke William, of course, our mutual friend.

38:07So I think the first question I want to ask you is very open-ended. What have you learned from William? Yeah, so much. And maybe in order to really do everything that I've learned from injustice, I share a little bit like the journey that I've been on that got me there. And I'll, again, it's a long winded answer to your question. So bear with me. But, you know, I remember exactly when I listened to the first William podcast and it was actually the fourth episode with Jason Zweig and I was in Baku in Azerbaijan and I was walking through the old city. I was like, wow, this is amazing. I then read William's book and I read, consequently, Guy Spears' book, The Education of a Value Investor.

39:00And I remember reading that, sort of thinking of the Parisian salons in the 20s and 30s, how all the academics and artists and philosophers would come together. So like, wouldn't it be amazing if, you know, if I could speak to William and Guy and I then had the idea, why don't I invite William as a keynote to present at our BlackRock Real Estate Forum? And William kindly accepted and he came and did this incredible keynote. It was in fact so good that we invited him the following year where he did a one hour presentation or speech on Charlie Munger. This was the year when Charlie passed, which was absolutely incredible.

39:48It was absolutely incredible. But William then very kindly introduced me to Guy who invited me to ValueX, which is where you and I met for the first time. and other great investors. And that then led to me going to Omaha for the first time. And William kindly invited me to the TIP dinner where I sat next to our friend Fred Blackford and met Chris Begg for the first time. And that led to me becoming part of the Mastermind community and then effectively taking the masterclass. And it's been such an incredible journey for me where I not only effectively became part of a new community, but as an investor learned a different way of looking at the same problem.

40:46So even though I've been doing this for 20, 25 years, this has been a really important step in becoming a better investor. And so coming back to your question, what have I learned from William? Well, first of all, I've learned to think about the same problem in a different way from looking at investments from a more public equity perspective, having been in private markets all my life. And so I think that in itself has been enriching and you've contributed to that and the entire community have contributed to that. And then, of course, from William himself, when you meet him in person, I think the one thing that everybody immediately is struck by is his presence, how he is yours undividedly and you have his full attention and presence and you can just feel this incredibly compassionate energy.

41:43And I think what I've learned from him is there's a whole world where finance meets ethical seriousness, where finance meets values. And I've learned from him how to do that, I think, and how to effectively engage with community, how to create these relationships. relationships and a lot of it centers around this concept of quality and honesty and kindness and I think finally you know coming back to one of the earlier things that we discussed what I've realized is that what a lot of these investors have in common is temperament and values, that they come to investing from a deeply purpose and value-based foundation.

42:41And that wasn't that obvious to me. And I think that then is linked to this piece of spirituality where not only do a lot of these investors have very elaborate and very serious meditation practices, for example, but they have a belief system that maybe is somewhat unexpected before you really, truly start to study these incredibly talented investors. You know, Thomas, you more than once said to me that whenever you go to Omaha and then you go to the Milken Conference afterwards, just how different the two cultures are. And I was kind of curious, I know I'm putting you a bit on the spot here, but like, could you tell the difference and then also relate it to the belief system you talked about before?

43:30Yeah. Yeah, so the universe plays this perpetual joke on me that the Berkshire ADM is literally the weekend before the Milken Conference. And so what happens is I fly to Omaha. So this year I'll do it for the third time. And then at 2 p.m. on Sunday, there's a flight from Omaha to NAX. and on that flight typically is Dorothy, Charlie's executive PA and so her and I have a chat on the flight from Omaha to LA. But yeah, I think because these two events are back-to-back it really sort of highlights the two ecosystems. So on the one hand in Omaha I think you have 40 ,000 people thinking about investing, but also not just about making money, but making money the right way.

44:26And some of the key components there are more long-term thinking, interest alignment, having the right incentives. And then I think when I arrive in LA, then the focus is much more on the making money rather than how to make money and I'm not saying in any shape or form but you know the people attending Milken are not ethically serious I think they are but I think there's just you know a shift in focus and for me that's interesting because I know sort of where my spiritual home is and in many respects I think I can sort of bring a bit of Omaha to LA. And I think that, you know, to link it back to culture is also why I'm at BlackRock, because I do think at BlackRock, we think about values and ethics.

45:23So Thomas, the first time I met you in person, I wanted to say that it was very clear to me right out of the gates that you were a high quality person. I was actually not thinking too much about it. It was mainly sheer fear the first time I met you. Not because of you though. It was in Switzerland. And then I got called out. Actually, I can't remember. I was probably just... It doesn't sound nice, but I'm pretty sure I was zooming out or something. And then Guy was like, okay, could you moderate whatever Thomas is doing now? And I was like, who's Thomas and what? Okay, let me moderate a stock pitch about real estate because I know nothing about it.

46:01So that was whenever I met you the first time. But my point was, it was very clear to me right out of the gates that you're a very high quality person. And I wanted to ask you, and you meet with so many different people in all walks of life. Do you have any tells of the quality of other people? And how do you define it? Is it an energy transfer? How do you think about it? well so so you're too kind that right back at you i think um i think what what really uh stands out with you and william and i'm sure preston and everybody on on the network like you're you know incredible people both from a talent and from a values perspective i think for me to answer your question around you know that quality aspect it is really that it's that combination of talent and ethical seriousness.

46:55I think when we recruit for the team, I think there's four things we look for. Talent, drive, which I think is different from ambition. So drive much more inward looking, sort of to use words where inner scorecard and ambition I think is more outer scorecard. And then it's really that teamwork and humility. And I mean, not in a naff way. I think that term is sort of overused, but And I think good humility is, Jason Swig said that in his episode with William, trying to be humble, striving to be humble, but also accepting that you're never really going to be humble. I think that's the right level of humility.

47:39How do you determine which people to hang out with? And I know that sort of like sounds a very simplistic type question, but, you know, it was sort of like, I don't know how it was with you whenever you were in college. But back then, it was just a bit more natural. At least you were in a class and there is some you had, I don't know, you're watching the same sports or whatever. And then you started to have a few beers and talk about nothing, whatever you do in college. You're so busy. You travel all over the world. You meet so many people. You build relationships with some, then not so much with others.

48:12How do you think about who to build relationships with and how do you do it and why? I think I'm pretty open and generally curious. So I think I let a lot of people in. I think where I'm sort of quite drastic is where, you know, if there's no good value alignment, then life is too short. Then I have no interest in really spending time. I do think where you find people where you can really go deep, like you and I, when we talk, whatever the topic is, we tend to go deep and we build on each other and arrive somewhere that maybe we wouldn't have landed if we just thought about it ourselves. And I think that's what really motivates me.

49:09I think that's one of the other things that I've really learned from William and you. I've never asked myself before, what am I optimizing for? Trey Lockerbie, Ph.D.: That's absolutely amazing. I wish I could quantify. I like to quantify things. And of course, not everything that can be counted counts. And not everything that counts should be counted in the first place. I can't tell you exactly how this works, but sometimes whenever you meet people, you just click better with them than others. and I don't know. I was just curious to hear with you, whenever I talk about an energy transfer, which is probably not the right way to articulate it, do you feel like there is this either you click or is it as simple as saying you click with another person or is it more a value alignment?

50:00How do you read between the lines? I feel like I'm probably asking this question twice here, but I'm kind of curious to hear a bit more about this science instead of, you know, in my case, like, oh yeah, either it is or it isn't. And you're like, that's completely useless. Or perhaps that is the answer. I don't know. No, I like the fact that you asked the question again, and I think you're guiding me a little bit more in a direction with this second question. I think it is a lot about values, but I think you bringing up the word energy there is really important. This might sound a little bit hooky now, but and it's probably sort of the the relational equivalent to being in flow.

50:45Like when you're having a conversation where it's flowing and you're going deep and you're building on each other, there's absolutely energy that flows. And I think actually weirdly, like you can even do that on video, right? I mean, ideally you would do it in person and you can physically feel the energy flowing. But I think when we're having this conversation right now, I still feel elevated and excited and curious. And something's happening inside of me that is really hard to explain. You mentioned what's a scientific explanation. I don't know whether there is one. Maybe this is where we're sort of transcending into the spiritual.

51:24But I do think energy flows between people. And when it clicks or two minds meet, however you want to describe it, I think that's what's happening energetically as something that's shifting. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. No, it's not your imagination. Risk and regulation are ramping up and customers now expect proof of security just to do business. That's why Vanta is a game changer. Vanta automates your compliance process and brings compliance, risk, and customer trust together on one AI-powered platform. So whether you're prepping for a SOC 2 or running an enterprise GRC program, Vanta keeps you secure and keeps your deals moving.

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55:00That's shopify.com slash WSB. all right back to the show i typically refer this to as flow state and i wonder if i'm using the wrong word here but i'm kind of curious to hear how do you go into flow state if at all what is your technique and how is it different than meditation for you and what do you hope to get out of it so this is where the audience will think i'm a bit wacko so i subscribe to and William talks about this in Ritualize Are Happier, and I can't remember which investor he talks about. But it's sleep, food, exercise, and meditation. And I would add a fit which is relational. It's family, friends.

55:48But in order to get to a state where I can go into flow, certain boxes need to be ticked. I need to have slept. and I perpetually don't sleep enough, but I have this superpower where I can sleep anywhere if I get the opportunity. So if you put me into a plane, I'll, to the annoyance of everybody around me, I'll put on my sleep mask and I'll sleep until somebody wakes me up. One can help oneself, right? So at home, and this is where we have this thing called Sleep 8, which regulates effectively the temperature in your bed and Justine likes to be freezing cold when she sleeps. I like to be warm.

56:32So this actually helps get to the right temperature. And over the last two years, I've been able to increase my deep and REM sleep by 25 % from three to four hours, which is, that's like a real game changer. So I try to sleep in an ideal world seven hours, but I probably sleep six. And when I travel, more like five. I try to exercise and because it's hard when you haven't slept enough I when I'm in London I actually have a personal trainer that I see twice because I know that he's going to be very grumpy if I don't show up so even though I could do the exercises by myself knowing that he's waiting will get me out of bed but then I think the big part is meditation and I think that's where you know William and Chris Berg talk about this concept of spaciousness and I really made this my word of the year 2025 another thing that i've learned from william i can create this through being more intentional having a morning practice meditating where i can create some space between what's happening and myself so i have an increased level of awareness i'm aware that i'm aware and when I have this sense of spaciousness I think I can do great things and I think that is my version of flow state and I know it when it's there and I love feeling that feeling and I find it frustrating when I don't have it when I when I don't get into that state and so you know I kind of plan a little bit my life around it I've really stopped almost entirely drinking alcohol, you know, obviously every now and then, you know, a good glass of wine is fantastic, but I just think it doesn't really help me.

58:26And so, so yeah, there you go. I did say that it was a bit wacko. No, I don't think it's wacko at all. Thomas, I'm kind of curious to hear with you traveling so much, do you find it easier or harder to go into flow state whenever you're traveling compared to whenever you're at home? Well, I think it's harder because it does interfere with your sleep, which is why, you know, at the very beginning, I said, when I, when I travel to the East Coast, I try to stay on European time as much as I can. So I'll be up at two, three in the morning. And so, so I've, I've become a bit of a professional traveler and I have my, my, my, my coping strategies that, that help me, but it, it clearly does interfere a little bit.

59:12you know i almost go into flow states the exact same time every day and so whenever i travel that's whenever those routines go out of whack and i can i can feel it because you don't have this positive spiral where you know you you feel energized and then you get good interactions with other people that makes you feel even more energized and that you know so sort of like you're going the other direction again i'm not as a professional of a traveler as you are so i'm sure you have some some coping mechanisms but i was just curious to hear if you could more or less like going flow state one, two, three.

59:43I'm amazed that you can just sleep whenever. I also know you have two small cats, so perhaps that's also helpful. That definitely contributes. But what time of the day do you go into flow? Typically around 11.15 a.m. And then again around 4, 4.30. It's just like, and there are certain ways, you know, for me where, you know, it's easier if it's bright, which sometimes is a bit trickier because it's in Denmark, so it's dark sometimes a year in 430. But I typically need to be in motion. I have a hard time sitting in a couch and then going to flow state. It can happen. It's just a bit more, I'm going to say hard work.

1:00:23And I know you're not supposed to say it's hard work, but going back to what you said there before, you need to be in the right state of mind. And I sometimes feel like if you don't give enough sleep or you're too hungry or too stressed, that's probably whenever you need it the most, but that's actually the hardest time to go into those flow states in the first place, which is why I was so curious to hear how you do whenever you travel, because I think that is the one thing that I need whenever I travel. And I do think that there's also an element of control, and I don't know if it's healthy for me at all, but I do think I like that element of control.

1:00:56And one of the things that you're susceptible to whenever you do travel is that you have significantly less control. And so I don't really go into that flow state that often. And I feel like I'm not a good version of myself. And so I don't necessarily know if this is the best example, but we met up in London not too long ago. And so I was very fortunate that we had a chance to meet outside. And then there was a group dinner, which is not really my scene. It was really, really nice, but don't get me wrong. But I actually, one of the members who were there, and I didn't have a chance to meet up with him on one-on-one, but I actually sent him a text and asked if we could jump on a Zoom call where we can have a conversation one-on-one, just because I knew that whenever we were to meet up in person, I wouldn't be a good version of myself.

1:01:47And so, sorry that this is probably all come across as very, very self-serving, but I think a lot about this of being a good version of myself and not being a good version of myself. And one of the ironies that I struggle a bit with, which I'm sure you have perfected, Thomas, is that I generally don't feel I'm a good version of myself whenever I travel, but it's whenever I travel and meet new people. It's sort of like the worst combination you can think of. So how does that work for you? Yeah. I hear you. And maybe just one side comment before I get there, because as you mentioned timing. I think my flow state is very early in the morning before the kids wake up.

1:02:29My beautiful little darlings, they wake up at seven. But, you know, from sort of before six to seven, that's when I usually sit at my desk. It's in my environment amongst my books and I'm uninterrupted and good things happen then. I think the, you know, the traveling and not being the best version of myself and meeting people. I think I'm getting better at it over time. I think there's, you know, traveling to the US is easier than traveling to Asia. What I will say though, you know, in New York, it's actually pretty easy because nobody minds having a dinner at 5pm or 5.30. If you try to do that in London, you know, people think you're a little bit weird, but in York, that's totally acceptable.

1:03:18And so I can have a dinner and a normal conversation and be, you know, be in bed by 9pm. And so I think it's a little bit easier. But I certainly feel that way when I go to Asia and, you know, meet a lot of incredibly interesting people there. And I always feel like, oh, I wish my mind wasn't quite as clouded and I had a bit better, more interesting and fun chat to offer. Yeah, I certainly feel your pain, Thomas. And the reason why I also wanted to bring it up with you is actually because you've been very kind and visited me a few times here in Aarhus. And sometimes we're discussing different places to live and how it is to be in this city versus another city.

1:03:57And one of the things that I love about London, where you're based, is just, I have this feeling that everything is possible. I love London. I feel everything is possible in London, and it's not as fast paced as, let's say, New York City, for example. but you know there are some other things that i'm not always like as much so for example i went to this local cafe right next to to the hotel i was staying at and a cup of coffee was like 32 quid and it was good coffee though i'm not going to say that it was wasn't but maybe not worth 32 quid yeah it was uh it was a price of coffee and but and so um sometimes whenever i walk around london or it depends on where, obviously, whenever you move around the city, there are some nicer parts and not some nice parts of the city, but there are certainly parts where I don't feel that rich.

1:04:50And whenever I walk around here in Aarhus, it's not because it's a very poor city by any means, but you get the feeling that you can walk into any store and get what you want and get what you need. And so, I don't know, at least mentally for me, it makes a difference. I would like to say that I'm not prone to all of that from the... I guess I am. And so I'm thinking a lot about this idea of defining games and then winning those games. And I think sometimes, or I can't speak for everyone else, I can probably speak for myself, if I feel like I can't win a certain game, I just don't want to play it.

1:05:27I would want to play a game where I can win. And then if I just make my story here very long, I also think that there is something to be said about the more you express gratitude, the more it leads to contentment, which is sort of like a wonderful thing. But at the same time, I'm fearlessly competitive. And I like to set goals and like to achieve goals. And I also become stressed if I achieve all my goals, because then I'm stressed about not setting ambitious enough goals. And so I kind of feel like as I'm saying this, I can see how I can't have it all by definition. And so I'm kind of curious to hear How do you think about that, Thomas?

1:06:09It's going to sound slightly delusional here, but I like a challenge. I think that's clear. And when I was talking about that first close for a first-time fund, how hard that was, I actually loved that it was so hard because it was a little bit defying the odds. But I always believed. And I think this is the delusional bit. I kind of really believe I can do anything. And because I have that, I am an optimist by nature. And I think as an investor, you have to be an optimist in order to want to take risk and sort of coping with the uncertainty. But then you need to be reined in by people around you who then sort of tap you on the shoulder and like, that's a great idea, Thomas, but we can't do that.

1:07:02or this is how we're going to do it because what you're saying is a great vision but in order to execute it this is what needs to be done well said thomas you know i also think it a big part of it at least for me is where that uh where the energy is coming from and so uh this is going to sound like a terrible example but i'm going to say it anyway i remember obviously i wasn't that old but I remember I had to learn how to tie my own shoelaces, which I guess is something we all have to figure out at some point in time. And I remember I couldn't figure it out. I hope I was very young at the time, but I remember.

1:07:41And I remember it frustrated my parents. And then one of their friends taught me how to do it. And obviously, I've learned it since, how to do that. And the reason why I bring it up, and I know it's a bit of an odd story, is that sometimes you need to learn the exact same things from the right source. And especially if you're very strong headed, like I am, but certainly whenever I was a kid, there are certain things that your parents want to teach you. And you can't really learn that from your parents, because they're your parents. It's sort of like, you know, if you're coaching, you know, your kids, whatever kind of softball team, whatever, it's like, there are probably some things you can teach your kids.

1:08:25And then And there are certain things you just cannot because they're your kids. So they just don't want to hear from you. And I see that in many walks of life, whenever it comes to playing different games. I think I have, especially whenever I was younger, I tied very much money to happiness. And I think I've needed to hear from people with a lot of money that money didn't buy happiness. Whereas I sometimes would feel if I would meet people who really, really tried hard to make money and couldn't do it and then told me, but by the way, it has nothing to do with happiness, which I also kind of want to challenge that premise in the first place.

1:09:03But anyways, there's something about learning the same thing from different sources and have a different impact on you. So I'm kind of curious to hear if that sparks any reflections to what we just talked about here or in general, Thomas. Yeah, I think it does. I think some of the the most important lessons I have learned, obviously from my parents. My dad is a very principled man, which as a kid sucked, but now as a grown-up that I've adopted his principles, it's been incredible. I remember as a kid asking him, can you bring me home some pens and some post-its from work? And he said, son, that's stealing.

1:09:44I'm like, oh, okay. And that just stuck with me forever. And, you know, from my mom, I sort of learned kindness. She really is an incredibly kind human being and treats everybody the same. But, you know, like, I think what has to be open to your point about, you know, learning from maybe also unexpected sources, I think you just have to be open and curious and be prepared to learn when it's unexpected. And that can be in any situation. That can be sort of, you know, on the sidewalk. I've learned an incredible amount from the mastermind community, from the masterclass that I just, I never expected.

1:10:23I thought it was going to be interesting and fun and it's going to be, you know, enriching, but that it's actually going to have an impact on me and my career as in make me a better investor. I did not expect that. I feel like I'm not really answering your question, but nevertheless, it felt important to say. Trey Lockerbie, Thomas, I wanted to ask about a different topic. And I want to tell you where the question is coming from, and then I'm going to turn into something completely different, just to confuse everyone. So I was reading Invent and Wander, the book about Bezos and his letters, and then there was some other copy around it.

1:11:00And there was this story, and I'm going to butcher it completely, but it was about Bezos's grandparents had a big impact on him. And at some point in time, he's like 10 years old, something like that. He was sitting at the backseat of his grandparents' car. And he had calculated how much expected lifetime his grandmother would lose while she was smoking a cigarette on that trip. And she started to cry. And there was this conflict between Bezos and his grandfather. And he said after that, that it made a big impact on him. And he was told it's easier to be honest than to be kind. And I find that the dilemma to be, perhaps it's not even a dilemma, but I find that relationship between kindness and honesty to be incredible, interesting.

1:11:46And I think often about that example, but I wanted to use it in so many, go in so many other directions as I'm saying this. So please bear with me, Thomas, if I can invoke another book, Redalious Principles, and you talk about radical transparency. And you also talked about one of the challenges with that is that a lot of people use it as an excuse to be cruel because they say, oh, but I'm just radical transparent, or I'm just being honest. And you're like, no, you're actually being cruel right now. And I think the world would be a simpler place if it was like honesty equals good. I don't think the world isn't always that kind.

1:12:27There are a lot of nuance to being kind and to being honest. Whenever we are very young, we're very honest because we don't really know what's right and wrong and what's socially acceptable. And sometimes we can be very honest and we can hurt people, but then we're just kids. We don't know any better, so it's okay. And then we might enter a phase. We might be the rung of the ladder in the workplace, and we realize we can't really be that honest. It doesn't really work in our favor. And perhaps then we become more successful. We become the Thomases of the world and we run our own team. And all of a sudden, we can be a lot more honest if we want to, because the consequences of being honest is different.

1:13:08And then there are other settings, other kind of relationships where you also have to balance this honesty and kindness. And so I'm kind of curious to you, as people can tell, I think a lot about it, but as people can also tell I don't really have a good way of dealing with it. I'm kind of curious to hear how you deal with this intersection between honesty and kindness, Thomas. I think it's super complex. It sounds like a black and white sort of tough it, but it really isn't. But I'll start with honesty. I think honesty for me is easier just because I think being dishonest is so hard for me. I find it energetically, it really consumes a lot.

1:13:45And so I just naturally don't do it. It has a lot to do with my upbringing. I mentioned my principal dad, who I love dearly. And I strongly also believe that honesty is really something that you do for yourself. It's actually selfishly the right thing to do. I imagine sort of this fork in the time continuum where you create two parallel truths that then inevitably in the future meet again then that's when it's going to come and bite you in the butt and so honestly it's just it's just a easier way of living I think kindness is much more complex it's harder to come by I really try and I think when I you know speak to my girls if I had to elevate like one one value that our family stands for it would be kindness and that's something that you know we we try to practice every day to be kind and to treat everybody the same but the two are often in tension with each other to your point sometimes actually the kind thing to do is to be not quite honest to somebody and so it's I think that's almost like a hierarchy that kindness trumps honesty if it serves kindness and that's kind of how I think about it and you know one thing that my wife reminds me of is also that there's not only one version of the truth you know i think everybody holds their own truth based on where they're coming from and so truth is often a perception thing i was very fortunate to meet your wife earlier this year now you're in work i have to continue because she she teases you about this white knight complex that you have And so many more things.

1:15:43And so many more. But I think it's an interesting complex. And she would know. I'm kind of curious to hear, because I think quite a few other listeners might resonate with that or parts of it. Could you talk about what it is and also how you frame the... And it's not like a medical diagnosed thing. It's just what I say for the record. but can you talk about how you phrase it in a or how you frame it for yourself in a positive light yeah so justine would be better at describing it as she is a psychologist but i think it's this almost compulsive need to do the right thing to take the high road to do the ethical thing when when given two options it's not just doing the thing that's ethically the right thing out of the two options but to adhere to your north star and if neither of those options meet your standard to then go and search for a third option but i think the the main word there is the compulsive nature of it and so as much as she loves me and i think this is something that she really appreciates and it makes uh you know it makes our lives probably more predictable and i don't think i think it's a trait that she respects it's also super annoying right if you're in an argument with somebody who then argues his case by positioning it as the right way of doing it then you know that's infuriating and so i think that's when it's uh sort of um conditioned more as a white knight complex in a negative way but i think at the end of the day look it's i think it is about doing the quality thing um you know i think you and william are you know incredible examples of you know people who do exactly that and and who would do it the right way but um i feel like stig um you might um be a victim of the of a similar complex.

1:17:56I probably am. That's why I wanted to hear from you. You're implemented, so I'm coming out completely on that. But it is tricky whenever you're positioned as, let's go my route, and that is the moral high ground. Talk about infuriating someone else. That's a terrible thing to say, even though it might come from a good place. But I do think a lot about, Like so many others, I have chapters I would rather leave unpublished. And one mental framework, mental model, if you want, that I've tried to apply, sometimes more successful than others is, which decision I would be happy with a decade from now.

1:18:41And of course, we can't really predict where we're going to be in a decade. I think if you asked me a decade ago where I would be today, it would be a completely different person. And we tend to believe that who we are in a decade is just like who we are now. We just extrapolate and we probably have, I don't know, more gray hair, whatever. But that's generally not how the world works. But I found that to be helpful in terms of choosing the bigger life. So that was my way of not answering your question, Thomas. It's a good answer though. Thomas, I want to see if I can sneak one question in here about books.

1:19:14You know, it's always wonderful to have the opportunity to talk about books. Do you have any recommendations to what you're reading right now and how that ties into this called the intersection between business, investing, life? Full disclaimer, I purchase a lot of books and it feels like sometimes our home is like a Amazon sort of distribution center. And I try to read and then life happens. And so I end up reading a lot when I have time and I read in batches and then like for a period of time, just life gets too busy. But I think a reflection of all the things that we talked about, I'll give you a few books.

1:19:56The first one is a book that I very recently read is actually Rory Stewart's Politics on the Edge. and I read it because I was moderating a panel between Rory Stewart and my friend Philip Hildebrand who's a vice chair here and it was an incredible conversation but as a consequence I read that book and then I just started reading Middleland, his new book and I think Rory's a really great writer and tells a good story. Another book, and I think I'm a little bit like William I read like 12 books in parallel and sort of never get to the end of them which is very different to how you read books. Another book that I sort of stumbled upon and it's been lying around for a while and I just picked it up and started reading it and I really love it.

1:20:43It's Charles Handy's 21 Letters of Life and Its Challenges and there's just real depth and wisdom there from somebody who's thought about life in just a profound way and I feel like there's something really gentle and wise about his writings. And then, because ultimately this is still an investment show, I always have a few investment books open, but I just gifted myself. This is my Christmas gift to self. I think I may have bought the last copy on Amazon of Seth Klarman's Margin of Safety. So that's what I'm going to take on the holiday. Oh, wow. That's wonderful. You know, I can't help but ask you a super, super nerdy question about books.

1:21:30How do you think about opportunity cost whenever you're reading a book? Yeah. So I think of it in terms of enjoyment relative to learning. So I love having time to read. And when I have time, then I read very slowly because what happens is my mind drifts and I'll start thinking about stuff and I'll have ideas where I'm connecting dots. And it's a kind of flow, but it's not very, there's no self-awareness in the process. I'll then catch myself like, oh, wait a second, this is what I was doing. But that I think is a very enjoyable and actually quite a creative process. But in terms of opportunity costs, when I really want to consume books in order to then hold the knowledge and to be learning, I actually, I listen to them and I've just moved from 1.5 to 1.8 speed.

1:22:32And I think I'm probably like a few months away from two speed, which is probably a bit silly. But I think that's where opportunity cost plays into it because I can listen to twice as many books. I know exactly what you mean. Like even, you know, whenever it comes to reading speed, like that competitive nature is like, can I do it a little bit better? It's just, it's always there somewhere. It's terrible. It is. Thomas it's amazing to have this discussion with you and be able to record it do you have any any concluding remarks anything what you feel like we have you should have you know explored that a bit more just wanted to send you a very opening question here at the end no like I think this has been amazing and I'm glad that we really just had a conversation and maybe there's a few tidbits there that are useful for listeners but i just want you to know this is this has been a real privilege and you know i'm really grateful to you and william and preston and the whole team because you're just a constant companion in my ear and i truly learn every week and it's it's actually an important part of you know doing my job so i really wanted to just extend my gratitude Thank you for saying so, Thomas.

1:23:50And thank you for bringing me along your journey. It's incredible, like the power of the value investing community and how you feel like you meet new people, you've never met them before, but for the lack of better words, like something clicks. And then all of a sudden, it's like you've been friends for so and so many years. Thank you for making time. Pleasure is all mine. Thank you.

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