Alfie Manthorpe - #016

0:00Alfie Manthorpe, welcome to the podcast. Hello, thank you for having me. For people who don't know who you are, could you just give yourself a little bit of an intro? I think the easiest way to describe me is just I'm a distance runner and that's basically all my life, to be fair. Been running since I was like seven years old, so a long time now. And other than that, I just do a bit of social media and yeah, just train a lot really. How old are you now? 26. 26 so you've been running for almost 20 years straight yep and we've had a lot of chats before and you think that's why you're so good now it's because consistency built up over all that time uh has led to you becoming one of the fastest runners fastest runners in the uk like just spit out kind of like some records that you've got so personal best 10k pb is 27 38 chip time Ridiculous.

0:58And then half marathon, 61, 26. So you're fast? Pretty fast, or at least faster, good at sustaining a decently fast speed. As we found out in the sprints this morning, I'm not that much quicker than you, to be fair. Yeah, myself and Alfie, we went for a nice little 10K jog this morning. And then we did your drills and sprints on the track. It was pretty fun. I learned quite a lot. I think I'm going to start incorporating that into my training. So thank you for that. um but moving on so you obviously when we've had discussions before you say you're probably not the most genetically gifted even though i think you are but you think it's down to kind of like hard work can you like go deeper into that yeah i think proportionally but to the average person off the street i probably am still more genetically gifted at running but in terms of like the running scene.

1:55I think my biggest skill has always been just being able to train a lot. And, you know, growing up and then even in my early 20s, late teens, I was still not actually that good at running compared to some other people I'm racing against now. And it's just been kind of years of obviously learning how to train optimally. But all my training is basically close to the max you'll see someone do for my distances. You know, a few people do a bit more volume than me, but for the most part, I'm kind of maximizing a lot of things. We'll get close to it. If we talk like figures on that, like how many kilometers or miles are you hitting per week?

2:30So this week I'll hit about 215k, but it's usually in the 190s, low 200s. But like that consistently like over the year? Yeah, yeah. So that's probably some of the highest mileage you see in the distances that you run, like anywhere from 10k to half, and then you're taking on your first marathon. yep she's gonna be london marathon yep how you feeling for that good yeah the training's starting to get a little bit more tiring these last few weeks to be honest like especially the like longer and the more specific session so that's it's taking a bit of time to actually you know with anything if you're training more you've got to sleep more you've got to eat more so getting on top of that's taking a bit longer to do but now i'm feeling good i'm feeling fit so i just know now but stay healthy and make sure i'm sharp for race day it'll it'll be good i think and just in comparison to other people that run them kind of distances what could someone of your kind of caliber but more genetically gifted say what could they get away with in terms of like mileage so let's say you're when we say mileage kilometers per week you're doing around 200 on average what are the lower end runners doing that you're competing with?

3:47I think in the 10k and the half you've got people like Joe Wigfield who's doing basically almost half the mileage that I do so that's obviously an example of what some people can do if I'd say maybe more genetically gifted I'd say now at least the level I or the athletes I surround myself with over 130k is definitely usually the baseline but you know a lot of people are getting up into the 180s 190s 200ks Phil Sessman does a bit more than me so I think he does about 230k 220k a week so now it's trendier to run more well not trendier but people are starting to realize especially with super shoes that you can just run a lot more so I'd say I'm still in the higher end of it but as I've gone up in distance from away from the 5k and 10k into the half in the marathon my level of volume has got a bit more normal like i know rowie link letter you've also had on does pretty similar to me in terms of volume yeah yeah and i think you showed me uh like a statistic or like some data at the end of 2025 basically what mileage people were doing year-round and you mentioned that all of the top marathon runners across the globe are all running super high mileage it's kind of like a thing that you've got to do would you say that's true yeah i think the end of the day volume is is is king like if you can sustain it healthfully on paper more is better and why is volume king i think the adaptations you get from running more in terms of the aerobic adaptations uh you know building mitochondria capillarization things like that it's just the key components to aerobic fitness and also the more you run on paper again the more efficient you should get because your body just gets more used to to running um so again for the half marathon and marathon distances your body is just adapting to to running more and as long as you fuel and adapt and absorb that training it should be a positive thing um but the big thing is there is staying on top of it so you actually absorbing it and also not getting injured yeah how do you monitor that like day to day are you kind of changing program depending on how you feel are you kind of just setting a program say 12 weeks out from a marathon and you're sticking to every single session yeah to be honest like this this block so far every thing in my program i've done exactly to the t um but that's kind of the design of the program as well the program is set to not really have those days what maybe take you over the edge and that means that you can't actually do the training you need to do um for the rest of the week or the rest of the block so all of it is designed even day to day i know what effort I'm allowed to put into sessions to then also be ready to go again the next day and the day after that so it's all even though it's looked at in terms of like a 12-week block 16-week block every day I'm still having to make the correct decisions of if I'm a bit tired one day then I've got to not force it so for example on Friday which was yesterday actually the session in the morning I was pretty tired because I did a photo shoot the day before in London so naturally just a bit more tired legs are a bit tighter so i just couldn't force the pace i would normally run i just had to run to effort and then also appropriately fuel and sleep after that as well um so it's just all about trying to maintain good health and and not feeling too fatigued yeah so if you're if you are feeling fatigued you'll kind of just pull back the session stay on more of like that reserve side rather than just going hell for leather absolutely smashing that session feeling great because you've kind of ticked off that session even even though it's hard.

7:29The only problem with that is you can't train the day after because you're absolutely cooked. Whereas yourself, if you've had a big day, long day, maybe it's a stress outside of training or whatever, you're then staying nice and reserved so that you can always train and think about the next day. Yeah. Yeah, clever. What's a typical week looking like? So for me at the minute, Monday would be a double easy day. So 12K in the morning and then 10K active heat training. in the afternoon with some strides probably in the morning or evening as well, six by a hundred meters. And then I do core that day as well.

8:06Tuesday would be a double threshold day. So at the minute that's five by three K in the morning and then either 10 by a K or 25 by 400 in the evening. And just to explain that. So I assume in the morning you're a little bit slower because the reps are a little bit longer and the evening a little bit faster maybe. Yeah. so in the morning i probably start around 318 per kilometer and get down to like 311 i think the last session i did and then in the evening if i'm doing k reps it's mid 250s so like 255 average 254 average right so a lot quicker yeah all the 400s would be um like 247 to 245 average like 67 seconds 66 seconds per 400 and do you see like a difference in heart rate between the morning session in the evening session obviously a lot of people talk about like lactic threshold obviously it's threshold training but you're staying more towards your lt1 in the morning yeah my heart rate in the morning actually since i've done this marathon training my heart rate's got lower in the morning especially so i'll be ranging between like in the 150s probably for the morning getting into the 160s so super controlled yeah super controlled because i have a high heart rate anyway and in the evening um 170s low 180s is probably my sweet spot i know you're kind of like grinding them out yeah i was actually surprised with when i went to train with the you know on the training camp with the scandinavians who kind of revolutionized double threshold their evening sessions are it's shocking how quick you can actually go and still be in the right training zone so that's something i've learned to do so um yeah they're pretty tough but the levels are still right.

9:45Interesting, so let's move on, so that was Tuesday, Wednesday? Wednesday is always a medium long run in the morning, so at the minute I'm doing 110 minutes in the morning, and then I'd do a gym session, and then I'd do 10k easy heat training in the evening, Thursday would be the exact same as Monday, so a double easy day with some core and some strides, and heat training again in the evening, Friday at the minute is my specific session, so you know that's running a bit quicker than marathon pace usually so yesterday I had 4k at marathon pace 2k at half marathon pace 2x8k at 10k pace and did that two sets for two sets so 16k volume quicker in the evening I'll do heat training again Saturday is the same as Monday and Thursday but with a bit more of intention behind the sprints so I do drills plyometrics and some faster sprints and then later on today I'll heat train again and then Sunday at the minute is the long run session and then gym in the afternoon as though interesting so you mentioned there quite a lot of heat training as well yeah i think there was five sessions in that week heat training why can you just explain how because everyone does heat training different how do you do it so at the minute i'm doing active heat training and that's usually a 10k which takes 41 minutes probably 40 minutes in total like four minute k's on the treadmill i actually have to run quicker on heat training sessions to get my temperature up just to get it up quicker and then maintain it.

11:11And then after actually, because I don't have access to a sauna at the minute, I'm kind of, after I finish my run, I actually just stand in all my layers still for about 10, 15 minutes. I use the core sensor to kind of track if I'm still in the right heat zone. So even though it's not active anymore, it's almost like being in the sauna until obviously the sweat starts to kind of take over. But I get like an extra 10, 15 minutes sometimes as heat adaptation after the run. I would do a bit longer, like 12K. But I think in winter, when you're in a gym, it's very hard to, when you're doing active heat training, to maintain the right zone.

11:49And I find that if I'd go to 12K, I'm way too hot by the end of that 12K. So 10K is probably the sweet spot for me at the minute. Yeah, interesting. And you're doing that five times a week. Why five times a week and not, say, twice? I think five is like the maximum, like I try to optimize everything. I think five is probably the best results. After that, I think it's diminishing returns quite substantially. But also in an ideal world, if I had access to a sauna right now, I'd maybe do like a split of two and three or three and two of free active and then two just sauna sessions post-workout. And why is that?

12:30is that because it's less taxing yeah it just feels horrible doesn't it it's it's it's terrible like active heat training is not nice to do i don't it's just not hygienic it's not it's the washing oh it's yeah terrible it's terrible it is just terrible i've got no other words for it yeah it's pretty grim you smell after it like even obviously you wash all your clothes every day like yeah i'm a big fan of it as well and i just do it in my kitchen so i have a stationary bike in my kitchen and i'll do like say 45 50 minutes on the bike uh i like to do on the bike because i know you're obviously um a great runner but i find like obviously heat makes you a little bit delirious sometimes especially if you don't have a temperature gauge like you use the call sensor i don't use anything really i just cough my heart rate so it makes you a little bit delirious and i'd probably trip running so i do it on the bike uh and also i can do it in my kitchen so i'm not getting weird looks when i'm in a gym yeah and uh you know i'm dripping sweat because like it's literally a puddle after you finish what's it like on the on the treadmill because obviously so actually um all my sweat gets contained in the clothes all right so i actually don't drip any sweat at all like there's literally never any sweat what's left because of my gloves as well so they absorb all this stuff what would actually drip out my arms and then the socks just absorb all the stuff what is coming from my tracksuit bottoms but i think also you wear bin liners quite a lot all the actual heat trackers don't you yeah i think the one i use is like a sauna suit or something yeah and uh i just got it off amazon but uh yeah i uh it's basically like a rocky like old school rocky thing or basically like wearing a bin bag underneath your clothes um so like the sweat sweat doesn't actually absorb into your clothes so on the outside you look like you're not sweating but then there's a puddle on the bottom of the floor so um but yeah definitely works can you just give us like a couple of key things that heat training does to help you improve it and like if you was recommending it someone if you're trying to sell it to someone yeah so i'd say this the science behind it i believe is it increases blood plasma volume which then actually dilutes the red blood cells in the blood or hemoglobin in the blood right and then your body to to i guess make back up that dilution or proportionate like less amount it just produces more so then in theory you have more um red blood cells hemoglobin in the blood which then helps transport oxygen to muscles and just it just makes you aerobically fitter i think that's kind of the the general basis of it and for me i'm actually really sad it seems to have worked quite well for me because again it's not very nice but since i've started doing it i've noticed like i've run all my personal bests i've been just a better runner especially at the longer distances like i just got better and i think heat training definitely plays a big part to that i think as well just if you're if you're ever competing in like hot environments or hot climates like you're just getting used to that yeah well so and there's kind of like the mental side of it but regulating temperature i find as well like the first time if you're not done heat training for a while and then you go back to doing it it's horrible it's horrible and the first couple of sessions like it's you're just uncomfortable all the time and then it kind of gets easier and easier You know, I think that's just your body's way of like regulating temperature, especially anyone that does like high rocks or anything.

15:57Like them rooms are so warm. One thing that I've found from starting heat training is that I just don't seem to need a drink when I'm competing. So I can go an hour without drinking any water. I've not got a dry mouth. I don't feel like I'm overheating at all. I don't need to splash water on me. I feel just like, okay. Well, that was obviously the first main reason for people to do heat training was to acclimatize for hotter races. And that's obviously a factor I do as well, especially for London. And then they discovered the blood plasma. I think the guy who actually did the study was actually studying it for recovery purposes and then realized that it had all these profound effects on their joints.

16:36How mad is it that the boxers in the 80s had it right all along? Yeah. For so long, it was like, oh, the worst thing that you can do is have a bin bag on. It's so bad for your health. it's it's not gonna because everyone thought oh if you sweat more you lose more fat well obviously that's not the reason but they were doing it for a different reason which was this yeah they actually increase your fitness it's pretty mad that um moving on to kind of like other methods and kind of like little biohacking things that you like to do is there anything else that is that good bang for its buck when it comes to running like you said you mentioned volume you've mentioned heat training um one thing and i'll answer this question for you but but one thing that i think is a key is like doing strides and doing what we did today so like the adding in the sprint stuff yep i feel like when you're a long distance runner anything over 10k you feel like oh i don't need to run fast but what's the value in that yeah well obviously the sprints and things i think that's so important i think it just teaches your body to be more efficient and also helps you get more powerful which in on paper let's say if i'm more comfortable running at 230k pace i should also be more comfortable running three minute k pace free 30k pace so it just makes you a bit more efficient which trickles down into all different paces which if you had the same fitness aerobically but then you were more efficient at running because you did the sprints and the strides and stuff like that then you would be able to run quicker in the marathon 10k so that's the biggest reason for me um in terms of other things i think strength training it's cliche to say now because everyone i feel like a few years ago runners didn't really have a clue about strength training and didn't really see the need but i feel like there's enough now out there what people are getting told to do more strength training but in terms of actually what to do practically i think i'd definitely start with some like calf iso holds and stuff like that if it was like picking something to do so that's that isometrics yeah in like a calf raised position yeah yeah single legs pushing against the bar would probably be the easiest one for people to start doing um other than what do you think this does does it strengthen or prime the body or i think it strengthens and i've noticed for me especially when you're trying to run fast your But mechanics is essentially how well can your foot and your calf produce force off the ground.

19:08And it's that reaction and then going forward. I just think the ISO holds is something that's helped the most for that in terms of what I've noticed myself personally. And it helps with injury prevention as well. And also ISO holds don't really get as many DOMS as like doing some other stuff. So that's a really good one. Are there any more isometric holds you do? So let's say one for the calf. Yeah, I do the calf one and then do a hamstring one, which is kind of, I have my leg, almost my heel onto a bench whilst my other leg is up in the air and I push that heel into the bench. So almost like a raised glute bridge.

19:43Yeah, yeah. Single leg glute bridge. And then the quad, I'm still trying to experiment a few. So one I recently got was actually a trap bar where you just overweight the trap bar completely. So you can't lift it and it's just the actual trying to lift position. That's the one I got given a few weeks ago. And I think that's quite good for the quad ISOs. And then for hips, I think a hip thrust again, where you can't move the hip thrust and it's just the action of trying to move it. There seems to be a good one as well. Interesting. And you say they don't cause anywhere as much like DOMS and stuff like that.

20:19You're not sold the next day basically, so you can still run. And I think that's like the key is to have your strength training supplement you're running because at the end of the day you said at the start volume is key so any way that you can improve that volume or maintain that volume while it's getting stronger in the gym as well is the kind of key whereas like if you just did traditional strength training whether it's high rocks training whether it's hypertrophy training um whether you're just going to failure on things like they're all going to leave you sore yeah so you're not going to be able to run as much and that's just the yeah that's just the science behind it like I really struggle with high rocks training being able to do as many miles as I did when I was say just training for a marathon so I've had to cut my mileage down just because I simply can't maintain the load whilst doing heavy lunges, wall balls and then getting strong for high rocks At the very least it makes the running feel a lot worse, you almost feel like a much worse runner but it's just because you've got doms half the time and like i can remember when i started gym properly i got worse for like six weeks just because everything felt tired like all the time i was just tired okay so i've got a question regarding that so say if you're a runner just starting out and say you're you're like you've been running for a couple of weeks maybe a couple of months what would your advice be if i go for a run and then the next day i'm really sore so the traditional like calves are sore legs are sore would you say run again or would you say rest until your legs are better and then run it's hard because i think if you're getting into it you still want to have some sort of you know progressive you're progressing the load um but i would say if it's a very noticeable i would say choose another form of cardio over running impact ah so like cross training yeah because you still want to get the cardio in but especially if you're a new runner you know if your body's not used to that load it's like very quick way to get injured um so i think it's any warning signs you get like with severe doms or like really sore certain areas then it's just better to offload and pick a different lower impact option yeah i i always think of it as like like you would with any form of like gym training hypertrophy training like you wouldn't train the same muscle group the day after if it was sore yeah because it needs to recover otherwise you're just you're just building up that fatigue all the time and then you might be able to run for seven days in a row but that eighth day well over the seven days you're going to just get gradually worse rather than get better over time if that makes sense so um yeah i think but that's a that's a really good point that like you say you don't have to run i didn't really think about it like that like you could take an off day or you could just do something else swimming cycling um or let's say ski row something like that interesting interesting so next going on to this marathon goal you've never run a marathon before what's the aim and are you confident in your abilities considering, because there'll be a couple of people that think, oh well, Alfie's never ran a marathon before, how does he know that he's certain that he's going to achieve this goal so at the minute the aim I need to confirm this actually like officially but I think now I'm going to run it with the 208 flat group so the aim is to run 208 flat which is absolutely crazy if anyone's like if anyone achieves a half decent time for their first marathon like they they know that is that is just like yeah for your first ever marathon yeah so how how are you so confident i think regardless of if i actually was or not you have to be um like if you're if you go into a race and you're ready to stand on the start line you have to be all in on that you can't have like you can't be second guessing your ability on the start line or else you might as well not race.

24:26Because I've noticed the last few years, even if it's delusionally confident, even if you're having to fake it almost, it just gives you such a boost having the confidence on race day. And actually someone, I work with a coach now and I'm normally someone who I might try and get out a few excuses beforehand. And he's like, I don't want to hear it. You need to be confident, like be confident. So like before my last race, actually, I struggled. my breathing was a bit bad the few days before I didn't tell a single person didn't talk about it at all because even if I'm having to trick myself I had to be confident and it did sort itself out before race day um but you know even stuff like that like you've got to be confident so that's a massive thing and I know 30k into that race I'm going to feel terrible but almost not feeling confident before or feel negative about it it's just going to make that pain come earlier because of the mindset is such a massive thing on race day i always think now with like say if i have a really hard session where it might be hard mile reps it's not a hard mile it's a hard last 800 like the first 800 is fast but it's not gonna be that hard so you've got to like reframe things sometimes like yes it's a marathon and it'll be hard but it's not a hard 26.2 miles it's probably hard 10k for example you know what i mean so that's kind of how i view it it helps a bit as well yeah no never really thought about that and like say you you've been putting in the training the numbers are adding up like let's say you've done run a 101 half like for for me like i don't know i'm not like a professional runner or i'm not a beta nerd but to me that strikes me that you could do a 208 marathon.

26:15Yeah, I hope so. That's what I'm kind of thinking as well, to be honest. On paper, it seems logical to put those two together. Well, obviously, the miles where you're probably not familiar with, that last 10K, what are you expecting? I'm just expecting it to be a slog, that last 10K, to be honest. I've always gone up distance and never had it affect me in terms of like I could run just as fast at the end of a 30k long run as I could if I just warmed up I don't know if it's genetic or I've always been able to do that so maybe it's a bit naive but I also think that'll be the case at 40k I've gone to 36k and been able to do that so I think with a taper and carbo load and things like that and adrenaline i'm hoping that extra 6k won't be anything different but i've always just had the skill to be able to um turn it on late into a late into a training session i've always done massive training sessions been able to finish exactly the same um so maybe again naively i'm kind of positive about the even the last 10k i know it'll be hard obviously but i think i'll be pretty good at sort of maintaining form a bit better than maybe the average person i like that and then uh what's your nutrition strategy obviously said that you're going to cab up but what's your nutrition strategy during the actual marathon so official confirmation of that i'm doing some tests of march on um i've got like a testing kit to test everything so that might change some things but the minute my plan is we've got bottles so i kind of almost don't get to choose the exact it's it's where i pick up the bottles is where i get to take take take on fuel so just for people that don't know you're in the elite group at the london marathon and you have a separate table yep and you can put balls on them table and is that every 5k i think it's i think it's every 5k that might sometimes be a tiny bit of a marginal difference but for me it'll be obviously to take on carbs every single time i can have the chance to um so is that going to be in gel form or fluid form or fluid form i'm going to have some emergency gels just in case i miss a bottle so i'll maybe carry three or four gels with me in my pocket but the goal is to take all the carbohydrates through liquid form at 5k markers um i think i'm going to aim for about 80 to 90 grams of carbs an hour because i'm 65 kg so i'm not going to try and shoot over 100 but i think it's definitely possible for people to start having a lot more than what people used to think they could have yeah no that's that's interesting like you um at the moment that i think the data still says like 90 grams is kind of like optimal especially if you're running at that pace that intensity like i don't even think it's the intensity it's more like the pace like what minute per kilometer is it like three or five something like that three or five yeah so even like taking fluid down at that have you practiced that by the way yeah yeah practice it a lot i was so when i first started practicing it my heart rate would go up maybe by like six or seven beats per minute um when i just after had had the drink whereas now it's almost identical so it's kind of subconsciously because i've not even had to think about it just over time practicing it's amazing what your body just trains to do so i noticed last time i started to take it um as i put the bottle to my lips my nose i like breathing with my nose so completely subconsciously whereas when i started taking it i was trying to breathe while i was drinking it um whereas now it's just just works really well so have you got special bottles as well like well like i'm assuming that they're closed they're sealed yeah trying to figure that out i ordered some more of amazon last week which were perfect size but the the actual lid was too hard to get the water out so i need to try and lock in on that it's crazy isn't it like the amount of kind of detail that you've got to go to because you are running at that pace like you can't just have like an open top cup you've got to have like a bottle yeah i'm trying to work with march on to get one as asap but obviously tradition i'm like that first athlete who would have bottles so it's they're more tuned obviously to just the gels so we're trying to get something ready but um i'll probably end up just trying to keep in trial and error some some amazon bottles and see what works best i've heard that apparently mini fruit shoot bottles are pretty good i actually thank you for reminding about that because i've heard that too but i completely forgot yeah yeah i'll i'll do that probably actually no it's interesting um but yeah like let's take it away from kind of like the running what what do you do in your spare time like what was kind of like a traditional day look like we look like what hobbies do you have outside of running so for me i love going out for food and doing stuff like that like i love mostly my girlfriend going out eat like going out food going out for coffee going out for walks so I love all that stuff.

31:23But then other than that, like, because of training where you have to be, recovery is part of the job as well. It's hard to pick and choose when to do those things. And also, you know, I'm a big fan. I'm quite a big nerd. So I love, like, films, TV shows, even, like, playing video games and stuff. But I just can't because I automatically, as soon as I've not played my Xbox, maybe in eight months, ten months. but as soon as I play it, I just feel guilty that I'm playing it. So I'd love to be able to do it more, but I don't really do that kind of stuff. So for me, yeah, going out for food. Still watching Netflix quite a lot, and I like learning things.

32:03I used to watch loads on just business, social media marketing. I watch a lot of politics stuff now, which is quite depressing actually more than anything. Space, I like learning about that. So just like learning about everything and then just going out and doing things. But it's probably mostly food and coffee if I have some spare time. And why do you feel guilty? I just think you're probably the same, aren't you really? That's why I asked the question. Yeah, I don't like feeling like I'm wasting my time, which I know is the wrong mindset because part of the time you should spend is about just mentally switching off.

32:41But I just, I think for me playing games, it's just like I could be doing something better with my time and that always makes me feel worse than actually better. Even that should be the goal because it's a fun thing to do. So I end up always just feeling worse after playing them. It's interesting that you say that because I spoke to quite a few people and one thing that kind of resonates is that like the top athletes in the world are super super lazy outside of their training yeah literally all they want to do is do their training and then outside training they lay down horizontal and they're playing games they're watching movies they're doing all the stuff that we classes almost wasting time but i think that's just because of like the self-development culture it's definitely not wasting time yeah because at the end of the day you're enjoying yourself you're you're learning you're you know even like watching a comedy like i don't know it's it's a great way to switch off and you're probably watching it with someone else as well so it can be classed as like quality time um but i don't know why we kind of like see it a little bit different i don't know i think it's hard because also i guess if you're like someone like yakubing a britson right you've got a massive massive contract of loads of money you can kind of you don't really care but like for us i guess we have a remember like you've got a podcast like we're on your podcast right now so you have other ambitions as well so it's like working towards maybe business things or other life goals like that's the kind of guilt i feel is i'm not working on those things when i could be i don't know if it's just like a uk kind of thing like that almost like it comes back to that confidence that we always talk about and like i always feel like if if i'm not working towards something i'm gonna get dropped it's like this insecurity right that you're either going to get dropped by brands or you you're not going to be as good as the next person if you're not training or if you're not focusing on recovery uh that's that's how i find it and that's one thing that i really struggle with um but do you do you find it similar or not not like not to the extent of like getting dropped or anything like that and it's weird actually how different my mindset was when i was on camp for a month.

35:02Joe, because you're on a training camp at altitude, I was very comfortable doing nothing all day. I watched The Office. I actually downloaded Minecraft of all games to play, which shows how bored I was, right? But I was completely fine doing absolutely nothing all day apart from train. But then since I've been home, I just have a sense of guilt about it. I just fear that I don't like looking back and see that I've wasted time. And I can't get it out of my head that that is just wasted time, even though it's not because it's recovery. And I've never been able to get that out. So I don't know. Some people are obviously very good at just being able to do nothing, but I'm not sure if that's because they don't have the ambition to do it or if that's them just being better at making the sensible decision of chilling out a bit more.

35:49Yeah, it's crazy to think. What do you think your secret is? I'm very objective about everything. so for training if something goes wrong if something goes well same with nutrition sleep I'm just objective so no feelings everything is just written and planned how it should affect how I should get the adaptations on paper it's not like I don't go I enjoy that session so I'll do it more or I'll get confidence from that session so I'll do it it is that's what's best for me so I'll do it that's that's all that's all it is it's never sort of a feelings thing it's always doing the things what will probably have the best effect for me and that's just kind of what I always live by so I think that's probably it just relentless grind of everything do you ever compare yourself to others I definitely used to more I try not to I'd use I usually like try to get influenced from others but I wouldn't say I compare so you kind of turn it into like a positive rather than a negative yeah and when i say compare it sounds like it's dead negative but you can have a positive like it can give you motivation it can give you um like say confidence or whatever it is yeah i wouldn't like i guess the the way you think about compare initially is like see someone why can they do that and i can't kind of thing or something like that i definitely don't do that but in terms of comparison of like how does my training look compared to theirs what do they do in their off time compared to me i definitely look at that and then try to to learn a few things i want to talk a little bit about recovery what are the let's start with nutrition because obviously nutrition is huge um what how do you see food just the same with the objective thing i just spoke about it is food for me is just how do i fuel my training and that is mostly carbohydrates and calories and then the aspects how do i recover from my training which again is carbs fats protein replenishing everything basically so that is it like literally i think i actually do think about it in terms of if i'm before a session i'm thinking about getting ready for that session and then afterwards i'm thinking about recovering from that session so it breaks it up a bit and but it's always i just see it as if i can get more in and it's pretty healthy then i'm gonna run better i've never met that question i asked that question because uh we were speaking to your girlfriend yesterday yeah and Romy your girlfriend said that you're pretty weird with food can you explain some of the weird things that you do because I can explain it if you want you explain it first and I'll try to add to it because it's probably better for someone it's not that weird really but like raw bagels I see with raw bagels all the time just kind of scranning them I just find that that's pretty mad it's a lot of carbs there pasta just dry cooked pasta and that's it like no flavoring no sauce like i know you're trying to get the carbs in but like you could just have like a carb sauce as well i put some more ketchup on it quite a lot now all right okay so you've changed that pasta and ketchup yeah pasta and ketchup well actually i never usually have it usually now so what i do is i like have put the pasta in let it boil for a bit and then i put three eggs on top of the pasta and it poaches it because it's they sit there which is so in the same thing maybe some veg and usually like a mitchell in the star chef yeah it's incredible and then usually i get some like tin tuna or like mackerel or um chicken from the shop do you like pre-cooked chicken i sometimes get that a lot actually and just put that on and hang on a minute ketchup and honey sorry hang on so you've got the pasta you've got three raw eggs that are like potentially poaching but they're still going to be undercooked no no they poach well oh the potash all right okay and then you've got some tinned tuna are we going like in brine or like oil yeah uh olive oil or spring water right olive oil or spring water so yeah okay pretty posh yeah yeah and then we're just like dumping that on top yep and this is what you serve into yourself and your girlfriend yeah oh no i wouldn't do that to romey no i wouldn't do that to romey right i actually cooked a lovely spag bol the other day okay okay so it changes around around your girlfriend but yeah when you're eating it's just it's just literally you're seeing food as fuel and that's it you don't give a shit about how it tastes i don't assume i don't think i've ever cooked myself a nice meal when it's just for me ever so like i might get steak sometimes but that's literally like just a medium rare steak with potatoes or something i don't even spice that up if it's just for me okay okay because i enjoyed like simple things like sam i love getting salmon and pasta and like broccoli and then just get honey and ketchup and putting that on it so then honey and ketchup on salmon yeah i put honey on everything ketchup and everything together sometimes yeah i think there is like a honey ketchup i think like hellman's do it i think yeah it's like well first thing i honey was joe buddy the elf puts like maple syrup on bolognese and stuff yeah i actually remember it was one of my romey's first ever dates and i was like oh i'll I'll put honey on this bolognese.

41:02And it was lovely. So since then, I've just started putting honey on things. Wow. Yeah. I thought I was weird with like honey and rice. No, that's good as well. Yeah, but that's another level. Any other weird food set issues you have? It's just more combinations of that, really. I have about 1 ,000, 1 ,000 and a half calories a day of porridge. So it's a big one. Any kind of like seasoning, when I say seasoning, like mixing it all? Just honey and porridge? Used to be dark chocolate, but with Gnomeo that I take, dark chocolate apparently, or antioxidants apparently counter Gnomeo a bit. So you can't have them both at the same time.

41:42And also dark chocolate costs a living. Gnomeo for people who haven't got a clue what Gnomeo is, is broccoli sprouts. Yes. Yeah. Broccoli sprouts in like a glass. And it's not broccoli and sprouts like you'd have on your Sunday dinner or your Christmas dinner. Broccoli stem, basically, I guess. Broccoli stem. Or is it the sprouts or the broccoli? it's part of broccoli a lot with a bit of lime or lemon i think and the science behind that it's kind of like a shot in it it's like a beetroot shot but yeah broccoli shot i think it buffers lactic acid but also i'm much of these studies are out yet because obviously because i'm sponsored i get you know internal communications yeah exactly um i to be honest i would have the product anyway um but i get internal communications about studies what maybe aren't fully finalized yet but they're going through it and i think one of them is it actually helps develop mitochondria so and also helps recovery so they're kind of the reasons to take it for me take it three times a week usually interesting one thing i did learn from you is and one thing i found fascinating sticking with like the nutrition is within any session well one thing you're constantly eating all day you're eating carbohydrates all day but you're within a session even if it's just a track session you're having a gel essentially after you warm up um then you're doing your track session and then you have carbohydrates before your cool down yep which a standard person just do their full session and then eat or eat like 20 minutes 30 minutes later when they get back what is the benefit of eating like even before your cool down so like even during the session as well i'll have carbs like in a drink form for me it's like training puts you in a bit of a hole and i just think it's better to to get out of that hole as soon as possible and also just try not to be in that hole at all so that's why i feel during the session as well so i don't go into a deeper I don't want to deplete my stores that much so I think that's part of it and I think also I know there's like always science arguing in terms of especially protein after a session what's the perfect window but for me it's just as soon as I can get some in then it's going to help recovery and I did learn again I'm not sure if the science now contradicts this but it was when I did learn it at the time I got told that having carbohydrates especially but then also carbs and protein and rehydrating helps with session adaptations if you have it close to the finish of the session so for me that's sometimes if i've got like carb mix left or gel left or i sometimes have belvitas before only two and then two after if i've got that available i might as well just have it straight away and that just one helps me get more carbs in spreads out the window of you know you can only absorb a certain amount of carbs so it just helps spread that out a bit as well and it's just easy to do do you think that could be one of the reasons why you can run so much yeah because i know every time i get like injured or i get a bit of a niggle or i know you coach george heaton every time he gets a little bit sore or injured the first question you ask is did you eat enough before the session why is that because it's from personal experience but also So just the concept of if your body is depleted and more fatigued, it's just more susceptible to injury and illness.

45:21So that's the obvious one. But then for me, like last time I was ill was after a fasted long run. Well, I used to get ill quite a lot. So I've obviously had like flu or something since, but I used to get ill or suffer with injuries. and it was always almost always traced back to how well I'd fueled in that build-up and I can remember the last time I was really ill was maybe 2022 and I had to miss a like quite a few weeks train and then really struggled to get back it was I had a hard session on the Saturday didn't really eat well enough Saturday for the rest of the day and then did a fasted long run in the morning and then I was really ill after that so it just always seems like obviously running is or any exercise is demanding on the body and if your body isn't constantly being replenished it's just like more like just continuously getting more depleted more fatigues and that's just when you become susceptible to things so when training for performance do you think there's any time for training fasted or it's just like one of these fads that yeah it's kind of i think i think there's something to it maybe become more fat adapted but i don't think the the benefits there's kind of like a cost to benefit ratio and the cost is all the risk is just so much more than actually doing things so i agree 100 kind of like a deadlift like you know a lot of professional athletes don't deadlift and the reason for that is because the chance of something going wrong outweighs the benefits yeah and there is been obviously there is benefits to deadlift and there's improvement fat oxalization but also there is like a certain mitochondria pathways which helps you develop mitochondria by doing faster training so that's good but yeah it's the the negatives outweigh the positives so other recovery methods that you use i think no brainers obviously sleeping trying to sleep a lot but also well i think people sometimes underestimate sleep quality so i mask and i don't mouth tape at the minute but that's just because i've been struggling with hay fever in my nose it's pretty blocked so it's kind of hard to to mouth tape it's probably going back to the fat oxidization thing it's a trade-off i'm actually breathing probably through my nose so it's almost like worse sleep um so but definitely an eye mask all the time trying not to eat too much before bed um consistent going to sleep and waking up times just improving sleep quality that's a massive one for me another big one for me is just trying to not get stressed which is easier said than done but i find like stress is one of the biggest impacts impact is on performance and how you feel like it just takes so much out of you i think it burns a lot of calories as well stress um so that'd be like a hack what in terms of getting less stress just being able to eat more like if you're stressed out all day do you reckon you can eat more yeah yeah i think so if you love eating plenty yeah so it could be a good thing just stress yourself out if you want to lose weight just get stressed it's not it's not actually medically medical advice and it probably doesn't work no it probably you see a lot of stress people who have stressful lives over like they probably also retain retain some sort of the console apparently make sure it's in fact as well like wait as well information so yeah but trying to trying to not be stressed is a big one like relax also just be calm like don't this is easy something done all this stuff but I don't blow up about things like react badly to things it's just better to just be quite logical and calm about everything and that definitely helps a lot other than that the only other recovery method i've ever used which i've actually like yes that actually did work actually going to a spa is really nice maybe going in a hot tub where it's not too hot swimming a tiny bit i think that helps you know swimming in the hot tub or well just trying to like move around a bit in the hot tub maybe depends how big the hot tub is um or just going for a little swim but the biggest one was a n m e s machine which i think neuromuscular something stimulation where it kind of pulses your neuromuscular electronic yeah yeah i think so electrical probably but that it's different to a tens machine because i actually found a tens machine when it tenses i've actually got doms from a tens machine before um but actually this certain type of stimulation um just tenses certain nerves and i just find it's the best recovery i've ever used so i once fell asleep with it on had it on overnight and again this is not medical advice but like i had tendonitis and it just disappeared and my legs just felt like they were floating the next day because i had so much blood flow constantly when you're just laid down so you don't have to work the muscles but you're getting blood flowing and i think it was originally made for people who were bedbound in hospitals to stop blood clots and it honestly i shouldn't be saying this because i eventually want to start a company that sells these machines but i think it's the best recovery i've ever used other than use that often i don't have one at the minute because the only one i've ever used is a brand called firefly which is a single use product so it's like 30 quid a pop and it's like mostly for basketball teams, NHL teams, football teams.

50:50We've obviously got a lot of money or American colleges most of the time. So that's what I'm trying to figure out. I've ordered TENS machines. I've ordered different electric stimulation stuff, but it doesn't quite work as well as this specific technology. And yeah, it's so, so good, especially for traveling as well. If you're on a plane, stick it on. If you're in a car, stick it on. And that kind of stiffness you get after travel just isn't anywhere near as bad. Interesting. I'll have to give that a go. Actually, I'll be interested when you make a company. I know. I shouldn't have said all that.

51:23I shouldn't have said all that. If someone wants to make it, then I guess I can use that instead. Yeah. Just saying it. You came up with it first. Yeah, I trademark it now. Trademark it now. Other recovery methods. What's your opinion on foam rolling, stretching, stuff like that? I think stretching is great at me feeling better because I feel a bit looser. I'm not sure if that actually helps recovery. um same with phone rolling like it's more of a mobility thing for me more than anything so just helps me move a bit better rather than actually recovering muscles i actually don't really phone roll that much at all i sometimes use a muscle gun but again i think that's more activation and mobility do you ever get massage no the i actually just found sometimes part of running is obviously having tension like you've been able to use that tension i think sometimes a massage is it makes me feel a bit flat and also just sometimes almost as the opposite like the closest I've been to injury in the last six or seven years has been from it was the same time as I was getting massages I'm not sure if that's an actual correlation but it nothing much else had changed but I was getting massages and I was you know struggling had a few more issues so um you mentioned obviously sauna do you do kind of like ice baths or anything like that no no I I don't do ice baths.

52:41I used to do them before a race, but I've taken them out now. I usually just try and relax as much as possible. Obviously, if I was doing like a heat and then a race, so for example, if I was doing two high rocks in a weekend, I would have an ice bath after the first high rocks, but I don't do high rocks, so it's not a thing for me. I'm never doing two different races in the same weekend. Might have one after the London Marathon just to help. so you'd only ever do it if it was like a multi-day event you'd only ever do like the the cold and then do you ever do contrast like hot and cold i did it once but i've not read into the science too much on on how it i think maybe there's something about the vasodilation and the vasoconstriction what helps right but i've not read into it too much and also it's obviously ice baths after workouts sometimes diminish adaptations as well so it's it's picking and and when to do it sick sick right okay before this podcast i put a little story on instagram and i asked the public any questions they'd like to ask you so here we go yeah first one best running shoes and i think you're the best person to ask you actually like rate them yeah and you try so many different shoes or you're not with one particular brand so like you have like an unbiased opinion so so break it down into like easy sessions and race day for easy runs and recovery i think the shoe i've got on right now is probably the best i've used which is the vermiro nike vermiro plus it's honestly just such a good shoe like the foam underneath is just it's a lot of foam but also just quite an energetic foam so it helps you run still pretty quick but without obviously any plates and things like that and it just helps protect the legs a lot um other than that if i'm moving up a bit onto like the classic sort of daily trainer where i do maybe some drills some strides some jogs in it warm-ups cool downs i actually really love the puma velocity four um i think it's just it's not as glamorous or built up so it's a bit more honest which helps you feel a bit more sort of connected to the floor makes you pay attention a bit more to your mechanics and things like that so i really enjoy that for once it's kind of like an old school shoe it is it's not perfect way yeah it's not got much cushion it's not got a cabin plate uh it's pretty cheap yeah and like i say just it's what you used to running yeah it's i think it's really good for helping you lock in with your mechanics a bit because i think a lot of shoes now you can you can be a bit lazy with how good they are at doing the work for you um so i think that's just a perfect shoe and it's like i said it's usually get it for like 70 quid it's half the time it's really really good shoe for that um long run sessions and things like that i do sometimes wear the vermira plus again because it it does have that sort of energetic aspect to it but if i want to go a bit quicker i'd use the asics megablast or a stable super shoe which is usually the new balance sc elite v5 it's a bit more average to me than the other top race shoes but it's a very good option.

55:50Another good option, I think, don't own it, is the Puma Deviate Elite 4, which is more of a stable super shoe. Interval sessions, if I don't want to wear a shoe, I really like to try and run honestly sometimes, where your body's having to do more work for you, so the Puma Propio, if I'm doing sprints, it's basically like a sock, really low-profile shoe, or the Adidas Takumi Sen 11 is what I'm wearing at the minute for if I'm doing 200s, hill reps, some 400s. Again, it's a bit more low profile, so you have to do a bit more work. And then sort of race-based stuff, I'm either wearing the ASICS Metaspeed Sky Tokyo or the Puma Fast Offery.

56:32And I think for me, the Puma Fast Offery is definitely the best. But for most people, I think the ASICS Metaspeed Tokyo is a bit more appropriate. Yeah, for me, being with Puma, I've tried the the Puma uh shoot and it's so aggressive yeah super aggressive yeah so I like to run in the deviates a little bit more I do like my thresholds and stuff like that like you say when in training if you like your your aim is to feel good the next day uh I like to run in like the Puma yeah deviates and that's my harrow shoe as well so it's kind of like one that I can do both in I just use the harrow shoe to be fair it's important to have specificity in your shoes that you wear on race day in training as well even if it's an older pair it's good to get that work done because it's mechanical differences well it's small obviously you could just do every single run in one pair of shoes yep and just have the you know versions of the same shoe why is it important to kind of like mix up your shoes so for me it's every session has a purpose and to maximize that purpose sometimes shoes help that.

57:45So easy runs, recovery runs, it's to get some easy aerobic work in, but also recover or not feel more depleted at the end. So a good high cushion shoe that protects from the ground with lots of cushion is great. And also you don't need a carbon plate in or anything like that because that would be too advantageous to run. So I think that makes you become lazy over time or at least your foot mechanics become lazy. same way with interval stuff or speed stuff the goal for a speed session is to get mechanically more efficient and the best way to do that is to train your foot muscles your calf muscles and your leg muscles mostly to do the work you need to do to produce the force needed and a shoe without carbon plate and a lower profile shoe does that better because it's not giving you a boost like a carbon plate essentially does part of the work for you and then obviously for race based stuff and race day you want to be simulating sort of the race environment and also running the same speed like especially for a marathon like practicing taking a gel or drinking fuel at race pace is important and you get to race pace by running in a race shoe or something just as good um so for me if i didn't train in my carbon race day shoe i'd be running slower which means it's not the exact same in terms of practicing um fueling or practicing how my like cadence or the power output influences how tired i get and things like that so it's good to have the specific need of the session matched by the appropriate shoe i love that that was such a nerdy answer by the way yeah i know yeah i love it i love it uh do you take rest days no no no when was the last rest day you had though could you obviously you don't really take them but i did that after raises i did 5k after the half marathon a few weeks ago and would you recommend that to everyone that like everyone not to take a rest day and to or do you feel like people need rest days i think for almost everyone rest days probably the most appropriate thing to do and now for me like just with how used i've got to the training i'd actually probably feel better from doing like an easy double than actually completely resting and my body can handle the load of training perfectly fine but I'd say for almost everyone a rest day would be good you're a good enough well obviously you wouldn't need a rest day but I think most people do yeah I think I'm not very good at what you do, I feel like the reason you don't need rest days is because like you say you stay on that reserve side of training and you do the minimal effective dose for every session whereas I'm a bit of an idiot and I have a problem with overtraining and that's why I tend to need rest days.

1:00:30Yep. And rest days sometimes are forced because I just feel like shit and I need to take a rest day. But we're figuring it out. So yeah, next one. Any other marathon plans after the London Marathon? Well, the goal is obviously to make the Olympic team in 2028. So that is the goal. Yeah. Have you announced that yet? I think I've mentioned it, but I've not really put it out into social media. Here it is. yeah yeah so that is the goal and with that i've got to run fast marathons so right now the debut is london but then after that i'll look to do another marathon this year and then two or three and in 2027 what are the best marathons to do for like a fast time if we're going strictly off time obviously i know you can get all away with like positions and stuff like that as well but for me it seems like every year if I had to guarantee two were going to be the fastest it would be Chicago and Valencia pure because Berlin sometimes is really hot London sometimes really hot obviously London's slower than Berlin anyway but Chicago and Valencia are the fastest I would say Seville Amsterdam Barcelona Tokyo on a good day as well but Tokyo's usually really hot and humid as well I thought Tokyo was quite hilly no it's it's actually one of the flattest courses there might be more than one Tokyo Marathon anyway there probably is more than one Tokyo Marathon but the general one is a rapid course if it's not hot so yeah I'd say those and then there's a few like I can't do CIM as a course if I wanted to qualify is it not a qualifying course?

1:02:08yeah I don't think so it's the same with New York I think as well because it's net downhill and then Phil did Rotterdam is probably a quick one as well but usually Spanish racers are the best by far interesting when are you trying High Rocks? I don't know who's asked that question do you know what? if it works with off season I'd try it we should do a doubles yeah we should do a doubles I want to do a doubles with not me no I want to do a doubles with you but I want to do a mixed doubles with Saskia Millard as well the girl's just got the European record yeah Because I've known her the whole time from running.

1:02:50And I feel like the mixed doubles where the weight's a bit more appropriate for me, obviously. I say that though, but with the mixed doubles, the male, to get the fastest time, the male normally has to do the majority of the stations. That's something I'd have to look at in more detail. I'd also want to do a singles open at some point soon. but it's just it's just picking the right time because i expect to be quite muscally fatigued after it and also if i was to do one i would want to have a few weeks where i'm actually doing the stations and again that's picking and choosing the right time of the year to do that because obviously at the minute i'm training for half marathons and marathons they take big blocks so it'd have to be you know there's some stuff i can add into my gym routine anyway which would help but actual pure station efficiency i wouldn't be able to do almost all year round yeah no i agree with that um tried and tested yeah um a little bit of a controversial one here brilliant but what's your opinion on athletes getting popped like so many athletes getting popped within running recently it's obviously horrible for me to see when you yeah done for doping it's it's annoying for me to see because like i'm not in the sport to earn a lot of money like there's better sports to earn money and so for me it's about proving to myself how how well i can do so even if i could press a button and go you'd never get caught doping but just take this you never ever get caught i wouldn't do it because it's not authentic like you need to for me the the goal is to to do what you're capable of doing to the max honestly um so i can't even comprehend it but i understand like people in different environments you know especially a lot of kenyans are getting banned at the minute like it changes their life overnight doing it doing a you know winning a race or meddling or getting prize money like it's a lot of money for a country where the average salary is so much less than than europe for example so So even though I still hate it, I understand it more from where they're coming from.

1:05:06I just think, I mean, I think Kenya has more, like many times over more banned athletes at the minute than the whole of Europe combined. I think for them, it's also, they get taken advantage a lot of by agents and coaches. And they're probably not even aware that they're doping. And an agent and a coach, or there's a lot of doctors who are corrupts there, will just go, this will help you feel better, or this will help you run quicker. and just give it them and then go and do this race. Because it's quite a lucrative sport for these agents who just manage hundreds of athletes from East Africa who are obviously very genetically gifted at running.

1:05:42So if they've got decent training, then also get doped, then they can just go and run really quick and earn a lot of money for the agents and coaches. So it's really sad to see. It's also frustrating. I won't have lost that much money or race positions from dopers because I'm not competing on a world stage yet. But like, George Hunter Bell just recently got her medal. I think she, from last year or the year before, she's been upgraded to a bronze medal at the World Championships. No way, seriously. Yeah, and obviously she's now a world champion, so it's not that big of a deal. But at the time, and another one was Patrick Dever, or Dever, sorry, he just came, he came fourth at the New York Marathon and his marathon debut.

1:06:25Is this one that got announced last week? Yeah. I think the headline was, ban for five years, but the guy's robbed of a lifetime. Yep. And that just made me so sad because that's effectively what it is. Someone just gets a ban for a couple of years and then they can go run again. They're free. And then are free to do whatever they want. And then someone literally has trained their whole life. Yeah. And that might be their only shot or their last shot of getting a medal. Well, Patrick Diva, like, imagine his marathon debut, he would have podiumed at a marathon major on his debut as a British guy.

1:07:02And he lost out. He came fourth because someone was cheating ahead of him. Like, you can't make up the career effects. Like, he could have, imagine not just the race prize money, but the publicity he would have got from being on the podium in a marathon major. So I've got a question just to follow on from that. So obviously people are getting caught like years later down the line. Why is that? Is that because the testing's improved? I know from like when we get tested within Hirox, they say that all your samples are kept for 30 years after. So I assume like whenever a new test comes out, your stuff gets retested.

1:07:38And then like if there's anything dodgy in there, then you get strips of everything. Is that why? Yeah. Yeah. it's samples getting saved and then them getting they was getting retested um but also some athletes might sometimes the process takes ages like if they're trying to appeal it and then figure out it depends what kind of drug it is obviously but also some of those athletes might be doping really really efficiently and well so even though they've been doping for years they might never test positive um so then it's kind of even though we knew they were even though the women's marathon world record holder she ran 209 out of nowhere it was obvious she was doping she didn't get banned for i think six months after she was obviously doping when she raced uh well actually i can't say that officially can i because it's some sort of just said it right yeah i take that back um but she was doping when she got caught so um it's like it's just it's almost how good you do up to us kind of thing um but yeah these safe samples i think you symbol Bolt, obviously he was nine-time Olympic gold medalist, which is amazing.

1:08:46Someone got banned from his relay team. A sample got tested positive years later. I think it was Nesta Carter maybe. Can't remember the exact name, but so now Usain Bolt got that medal stripped because someone on his team tested positive. And that's stuff like that you see quite a lot as well. Yeah, that's crazy. It's a bit of a shame really, isn't it? It is. The reality of top-end running probably isn't as glamorous as what it seems. Well, imagine coming fourth at the Olympics, and then 20 years later someone goes, oh, yeah, sorry, they got banned, so now you're third. Or four people got banned, or three people got banned.

1:09:23So now you're an Olympic gold medalist, well done. Did you get sent in the post? Well, you get the gold medal, but you don't get the notoriety. Also, you don't get the podium moment as well. No one really gives a shit 20 years later. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, people don't give a shit. after a week after an event nowadays so because life's moving so fast so so yeah it's like say it's cutting it's cutting but no no it's interesting that um do you know that's kind of like your opinion on it i think it's the right opinion as well i think i think it should be said and should be talked about um but i think um obviously the olympics the committee wada whoever the testing facilitators are i think it is getting better and better and it's good that these people are getting caught now yeah even though it might be years down the line rather than just getting away with it completely yeah no that it is encouraging to see more people get banned but i guess that's also as you see more people getting tested it almost seems like more people are doping sorry if if you see more people getting caught automatically like oh more people must be doping when actually it's probably the testing is getting better.

1:10:31But it's also annoying because of it all happening. I don't care personally, but, you know, if you get accused of doping, it's not nice to, like, have to defend yourself that you don't take drugs. Like, I did a – I think probably for hyroxers, especially, a lot of people don't even realize you get tested a lot. No, people. And I did a video with you, and it was like, oh, he's doping. And I was like, well, he's not. He gets tested all the time. And it's the same with me. people accuse me of doping it's like well I'm not I'm not doping so and if people want to I think it's quite sad that people have to believe that to become good you have to cheat and that's just the wrong mentality to have oh definitely definitely but yeah I want to finish with a couple of quick fire questions we touched on food before yep if you was to cook a nice meal what are you cooking?

1:11:24same as you steak steak yeah or a bolognese steak or a bolognese bolognese could you have like bolognese with a steak on top have you ever tried that I'm going to try that and that's a new thing you know like pasta but with steak like just don't don't on top yeah just like thrown on top sliced obviously yeah not just like a full on steak just slapped there but like sliced on top of pasta I think that's my new favourite dish I think interesting I'll try that if I was cooking for myself it would be a steak but if I was cooking for other people it would be bolognese bolognese okay well I'm looking forward to coming around you still don't want it I promise you, but it's just as good as I can get.

1:11:59But you might not appreciate it. I love that. Next question. If you could only do one thing for the rest of your life, what would it be? Running on the road or running on the track? Running on the road. Yeah. Definitely, yeah. So you're not allowed to do any more track competitions? That's fine. You're not allowed to compete? Yeah, it's a bit different. like there's a bit of a thrill about track competitions but the road is i think just better and i'm better at the road so what are your uh times for the track say like 1500 or 5k um so or 800 my 800 yeah my 800 is 155 i think yeah nice um my 1500 is 346 i could run quicker in the mile than 15 like i could run a sub four minute part of me wants to go back and run a sub four minute mile at some point it'd take me a few weeks i think of faster training to run it but i could do that what's that on average per lap 59 point for a sub four right okay um i've ran 410 in the mile but that was a tactical race so i think i could have ran sub four then um 5k on the track i've ran 13 46 3k i've ran 752 and 10k i think my best 10k is like low 29s on the track but you don't really do many track 10ks or i don't anyway why why does it seem to be slower on the track than it does on the road um just because of the turning or for me it's slower because you just have to get it's a different skill to run in spikes on paper it's for elite athletes like if you've got like andre solmgren on here he would say he thinks it's slightly quicker for a 10k on the track than it is on the road but for me because i'm not as efficient in the spikes it would take me longer to get ready um i i'm i'm quicker on the road interesting where do you see yourself after your running career is over I'd like to dabble in all the endurance stuff first so I feel like I have to do an Ironman at some point just to do one do a few ultras in there maybe like a Moab or something like that I definitely wouldn't do a last man standing for sure just because that multi day sleep deprivation it's a different like uh i was actually speaking to to kim the other day i had luxury of meeting him uh the guy that won or came joint first in the bpm at ultra last year and i was chatting to him and the type of training he does is so much different to us yeah like you know it's a lot of sims it's actually practicing sleep deprivation yeah and and then it's all about just bulletproofing his body so the strength training obviously we do kind of a lot of strength training but like the amount of strength training that he has to do just for like he's stabilizing muscles because they're the things that fatigue and when they fatigue then that's when you start having problems with the knees the hips the ankles and therefore so like uh yeah it's crazy they look look completely different obviously they're a little bit stockier uh there's talking about ultra runners here look look a little bit stockier um and yeah the skill is completely different it's about running for as far as you can rather than as fast as you can yeah and i think i don't know there's something within me and obviously each to their own but my opinion like i think whilst you can go for the speed and go for trying to achieve something like as fast as possible yeah and go for the performance side and then you can do like the the longer harder mental side resilient sleep deprivation when you're a little bit older that's a good way of kind of like looking at it and i think you've also got to go into it willing to accept the consequences so iceland for example right i was just coming off a season break had a little bit of an achilles problem from having the break and i was already all i was thinking about was how am i going to train after this for the next block whereas for me to actually enjoy iceland or do well i was only i could only i should have been only focusing on the run itself yeah because it is going to suck like you said to me like you're probably gonna be achy after this it should be bad and i couldn't get into the mindset of accepting that but now looking down the line like we all see that like at the time like we might have thought oh alfie like just doesn't want it or just doesn't want to run but like now we see the amount that you've achieved from now until then like from now since then is like crazy so we see like you was actually smarter by staying more reserved within the ice and stuff and just um just doing like the work required yeah rather than kind of like pushing anything risking injury yeah anything like that is then because then you can start this build you had an incredible half marathon because that's what you was building for i think like eight to ten weeks later and then obviously you've gone on and pb'd every single thing that you've done really yeah um so it it does take a different mentality i think every if you're doing like an ultra event like you're finishing no matter what and you've got to have that in the back of your mind no matter if you break your leg you're finishing like you've kind of got to have that and that's how you're going to get through it because it is going to suck no matter what you're not having an easy ultra and if there's somewhere out there that somebody out there that's had you know easy 100 miles please get in touch because i don't think it is a thing like it's gonna suck um no matter what so you've kind of got to expect that and then got to go into it with this mentality of like you you're willing to kind of like die for it yeah deal with the it's sucking as much as it's like it's just a mental game isn't it like you and iceland compared to like well i mean you and then but also lucy russ and hirk and then obviously will had his problems and then George was probably moaning equally as much as me actually but he still did it right but you four especially like it didn't matter how much I don't think you found it any worse than I found it in terms of the actual experience you just dealt with it it feeling terrible better if that makes sense oh well them kind of speed projects kind of events that's like my holiday yeah exactly that's my you loved it you loved it you honestly I've never and you have more fun i don't know what it is i think it's just my release like i've spoke about this before but like i every day so like it's great i love i'm living a dream but it's so monotonous like you've got to focus on every single training session what you're eating your recovery um your sleep and when you're doing uh like a speed project all that goes out the window all you've got to do is run when it's your turn and then eat in between you don't have to worry about sleep you don't worry about like a caffeine cut off or anything like that it's just like the pure beauty of running uh and that's what i kind of like love and that's i think that's my like escape you need to make me know one of those chicken chicken wrap things what you made for that was honestly incredible made it i made healthy a chicken wrap everyone else hated it he's the only person that liked it honestly that was one of the best things i've ever had for breakfast in my life it was like a chicken wrap toasty yeah which that we made in like at the back of an RV with whatever ingredients we have we've had from like a an Iceland corner shop I can't believe that we did a shop before and it seemed like we actually didn't have any actual normal food for the whole thing no we didn't just like sweets yeah yeah well that's it that was uh they're the good times they're for me anyway looking back on it I it was great yeah it's maybe not not great when you're in it but like looking back they're the things that you remember yeah i think uh that's why it's so cool um so anything else anything aside from like like say you want to pursue the old stuff is there anything else that you you want to do like some people like to what they want to open a coffee shop they want to like do stuff like that i assume you don't want to open a restaurant because all you'd be serving with spag bol steak and pasta with ketchup on yeah i'd have to be like the just the business side of a restaurant i've heard not the actual chef or anything like that um i did actually want to do a cafe once where the secret ingredient everything was honey but that's probably not going to work very well either um i do like i am really interested in businessy stuff so i'd like to do um business related things also do higher oxers as well but um other than that i've always i love track and field so eventually i'd quite like to go back into that sport and maybe trying to take steps to become like the head of uk athletics or like the president of world athletics or something like that like sebco's job at the minute i'd love to kind of do at some point to try and put the sport in a better place maybe and just be involved in it because it is a passion but we'll just have to see like the business stuff i do really enjoy as well so that's sick that is uh that's really cool anything else you want to touch on anything i can't think of anything now i'm terrible at sort of in the moment answers and stuff like that so if i was prompted to do something i'd be oh yeah I should talk about that but off the top of my head I can't think of anything oh I've covered everything that I want to cover and I think that was cool that was really cool conversation thank you thank you no it's been great thank you