Coach Jonathan Bullough - #20

0:00Jonathan Bullough, welcome to the podcast. It's great to be on. I think it's something that I've been eager to get on, but also a little bit nervous about as well. So we'll see how it goes. For people who don't know you, don't know your background, who are you?

0:19So I'm a professional coach. I've been a coach now for, I think my coaching experience actually started way back in 2008, just coaching football. 2009, I was lucky enough to go and spend four months in America coaching kids and all different age groups. And that's really where it started. I'm a gym owner. I've been a CrossFit affiliate owner for, I think, 13 years now. And literally, I've spent from 2009 through till 2026, which we're in, coaching day in, day out, week in, week out, working with all different types of people. I think I really kind of fell in love and became a coach when I was coaching CrossFit, coaching in the gym week to week, day to day, but also then started to work with some athletes that made it to the CrossFit Games and competed at high level.

1:15That was when I was first exposed to kind of online programming and writing structured training programs for athletes and then in more recent times it's changed and evolved to coaching high rocks and now I'd probably describe myself as a high rocks coach and for people who don't know you have been my coach now for going on three years I'd probably say yep and a lot of people don't know that I feel like people will watch the YouTube and they'll be like who's this guy like has he been there since the start has he been there since uh just for a couple of months and you have been there since the start I'd say of my high rocks journey yes I've dabbled in a couple of high rocks before um we kind of met but I only started to progress once being coached by you that's a big compliment so I thank you very much for saying that.

2:18I think with you, Jake, you'd progress no matter what because you've just got that energy for it. But I think what my influence was was actually just slowly but surely helping to give you some of the things that I learned in terms of prioritising movement efficiency. When we first worked together, he was quite raw. he was kind of in that hybrid environment of wanting to you know do super super hard workouts super heavy workouts you were doing crazy running I remember one of the first times that I really kind of recognized you it was when you decided to do was it 14 marathons in seven days or something like that uh 10 in five 10 in five it was two marathons a day weren't it for like five days and I was like this guy's a lunatic um and then obviously he was doing crazy workouts in the gym And I saw the energy and potential, but then also the potential negative side of damaging yourself.

3:17And I think very early on in kind of seeing you move and meeting you way back when we were coaching you. So for reference, the first time I heard about you was you came into the gym and you was told to come and coach us CrossFit and Olympic lifting movements. So you was teaching us Olympic lifting for the coaches at the gym that we worked at because the owners of the gym wanted us to have knowledge to then be able to teach it in the classes. Correct. And before this, my mentality was always hard work beats anything else. and it was like you've just got to grind through everything it doesn't matter about technique it doesn't matter about anything else apart from working hard and this is what's going to allow people to win and I quickly realized and learned from just spending once but probably like two hours a week with you that the importance of actually moving correctly is the thing that is going to progress you and that's like learning skills because olympic lifting as you know is very technical it's very skill-based and i really struggled and i still to this day really struggle with olympic lifting because it's very much skill-based you just can't you can't get by with just hard work you've got to pay attention to the little details and i think that's one thing that you've taught me through like like you say countless hours of trying to teach us especially like a traditional like snatch I think is one of the hardest movements that you can learn as well with the gymnastics and stuff like that like it just takes hours and hours of dedication and it's not as quick as like just fitness so that's one of the things that I picked up on really early and you showed me kind of like the importance of as well I think you called out um just with the way that I moved that I was going to get injured I think you actually said my perception of it was was like there's an imbalance that I can physically see when I'm coaching you Jake and if you continue to you know like you've just mentioned just work harder than everyone and batter yourself you're probably going to get injured you know and I think I mentioned that fairly early on and then lo and behold not too too long down the line you did suffer an injury and one I was really kind of sad for you because I know being injured's not great but for me like looking from a completely unemotional view I felt like I had a good way of getting you away from that injury and and becoming stronger because you didn't get injured for no reason you got injured because there was a clear imbalance and there was an issue.

6:16And one thing I would say, like, from the biggest thing that I would take away from my whole kind of coaching career and all the years in the gym, working with loads of different people, is I've never actually ever seen someone get injured doing a perfectly executed movement, ever. Like, and I've seen people do super heavy lifts, I've seen people fail, I've seen people do ridiculous amounts of volume, and I've never, ever seen an injury occur through a proper, well-executed, efficient, effective movement pattern. And that's what I find really kind of interesting. And I would say like that underpins my main coaching philosophy is, yes, there's an element of having to work really hard and potentially outwork everyone else in the room.

6:57That's definitely a thing. You don't win anything through just being super efficient and effective and being nice with movement. You have to be super fit and you have to work hard or super strong or whatever your sport is. but one takeaway that I've always kind of lived by is that if you move perfectly then you can train more than everyone you you don't get injured you know yourself how much being injured kind of detracts from what we know we need to be doing you end up missing training sessions you lose motivation like loads of things happen when you get injured that affects your progression and performance so I'm very much like why would every athlete not have as the number one priority moving properly because that's what opens the door to all the other stuff if that makes sense so this was taking it back now i think like the first time we met this was probably like five years ago um every single week he used to come in and we just gradually used to get a little bit better each week a little bit lifting uh there was then a time where like i discovered high rocks and i did pretty well at it but then with these imbalances i then got injured I did my back, slipped through discs, everyone knows the story that like I was out for kind of like six months.

8:11At the end of that six months where like I'd kind of like recovered but I wasn't back to my full strength, a lot of change happened in this time. I went from coach, being a full-time coach to kind of going full-time online to then getting a job at represent and coaching um the guys down at 247 and i still do to this day uh but i always remember in the back of my head you saying about like movements are key you think that movement is an answer to most people's problems when it comes to uh getting injured like you know a lot of people would say oh i need surgery on something and i remember you saying so many times before you look at if you've got like a severe injury before you look at surgery let's see how well you're moving and see if we can fix it by just rehab and getting better movement patterns and most of the time you can actually recover without doing any like invasive surgery or anything um and this is kind of what appealed to me because i'd heard uh and a lot of people say if you can avoid surgery avoid surgery like that is your last kind of um chance so let's let's leave that because so many things can go wrong with with a surgery and it's expensive uh and the other like implications it can have uh so when you kept saying about this and like i said this was years prior it just stuck with me and we'd not talked for probably around six months um when i'd been injured when i was rehab with a physio Stephen Lane back here I was and then I was like well I need to start taking high rock serious I feel like I've got a talent in this I want to get into the elite 15 and the elite level and this is when I reached out to you and we started working together I think we started working doing two sessions three sessions a week and you got me pain-free that was like the number one thing that I remember is and it took a long time it took you know three to six months of repetitive like working on squat mechanics working on movement patterns but you got me pain-free which was like the the single best thing and the thing that I'm most grateful for in my entire life because you know when you've got kind of like chronic pain which I feel like like I had at the time, like people say, oh, like you might have this for life and I don't want it for life.

10:49So I came to you and you've kind of fixed it and you just having that belief as well, I think helped. Absolutely. I think being positive is one super hard sometimes, but yeah, like you touched on there, I'd hate to think that anyone's walking around everyday life just thinking that they're going to be in pain forever when actually there could just be a really simple kind of strength program or gym routine that gets them away from that touching on what you said there about things like being operated on like for me it's a last resort if you've snapped a structure a bone a ligament a connective tissue you probably are going to need some surgery because that's like a structural damage but I'm just touching back on my point from earlier I've never seen anyone who moves perfect report pain normally and maybe one day I'll come across this in the gym you watch someone just do a simple movement like a squat or a lunge and it's quite an obvious difference maybe from left to right or front to back and I just always think to myself well step one if we fix the movement pattern in it that now looks even and how it should and now all the bones are in the right place as they're moving does the pain go away and from what I've seen from what I've experienced most of the time it does for sure how do you kind of like analyze that because obviously a lot of people have experience in the gym but I'll be down there doing a session and before we even touch any weights we'll do something as simple as a squat and I can keep my mouth shut and you can tell me what's hurting or what's not moving right by the way I squat.

12:38Or sometimes I lie down and you'll touch a certain muscle and you'd be like, oh, that's tight. And that's not feeling the way it should. And before I even say anything, like I know that muscle sore, but you'll be able to pick up on it on either the way I move and how the muscle belly is feeling. How do you have that attention to detail? Does that come over time? Yeah, for sure. So I think it's a little bit like being an athlete. There's an amount of just like, I don't think talent's the right word in the coaching, but it's just like having a natural instinct for movement. I think some people just have that.

13:16Probably it could be a mixture of your upbringing and your genetics and the people around you when you were learning as a child and everything else. I think it's, again, like training, just hard work and just learning as much as you can. And then going and doing it over and over and over and over again, repetition. I've often tried to figure out how many hours of training and coaching I've done. And I've always coached probably 40 hours a week. And I've been doing that since officially 2011. So if you add up those hours and weeks, it's thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of hours.

13:58and as much as human beings are different for sure and there's different types of people there's not i don't think infinite numbers of different people you have like categories of person you get someone who might be a bit more posterior dominant someone who's a little bit more anterior dominant you get you know your left are you left-footed and left-handed or left-handed and right-footed so that's the thing so like for me from what i've seen they're the people who are the most likely to have left right imbalance funnily enough so it's just these sorts of patterns that over time you start to recognize and then there is themes so like if someone's got a pain in the knee then it's generally something to do with the hip or the foot so you start looking at the hip is the hip moving properly there's a couple of tests you can do that are pretty straightforward and then you just build this picture of kind of what the person that you're working with looks like versus what you know it should look like for a kind of healthy happy pain-free person and then just there is a definitely a bit of trial and error as well it's like you try something might not work and then you go down a completely different route and that starts to work and then it's just you know piece by piece figuring out kind of what were the issues coming from why and then knowing the right exercises movement strategies to to and move forward with that.

15:24From experience, and you might argue with this, but I don't think that many coaches in person last for longer than like three to five years. So most things I think, you know, we'd agree that there's a mastery time where you need X amount of hours, X amount of years to truly kind of master something or get to mastery because you never kind of complete it. There's always more stuff to learn and see. But I don't think most coaches actually work with enough people in person for long enough to get to the point where they've got that blend of knowledge, experience, and kind of real world use of what they've been doing.

16:08I always play a game and I always say like, name five coaches that you know from your kind of local personal training gym or whatever that have been doing it for longer than five years. and it seems to be that coaches go fully online or they end up progressing up a ladder within a company or something or they get a different job. But I think it's just something that takes years and years and years and years. I would say one big thing that I've gained from working with you, Jake, is I would say in the last 18 months particularly, I think I've learned more than I did in the previous 10 years. And that's not to say I didn't learn a lot in the 10 years previous and gain a lot of experience, but the exposure to the problems, the exposure to kind of truly working on a day-to-day basis with what you would class as an elite athlete who's basically being paid to be an athlete, the problems that we've come across, the other situations that we've been in, you'll present me sometimes with a problem that I don't have the answer to, so it's like go and find the answer, whether that's speaking to someone else, reading a book, getting on a podcast or watching a YouTube video.

17:15I think it's really kind of accelerated my learning and the biggest thing that I've kind of understood over the last 18 months is the more you learn about anything, the more you realise you don't know. The more doors that you open to more and more knowledge. And I think actually in this day and age, it's a massive privilege to be in a position where you're learning every single day. and I think it's just that process of understanding. You've got a lot of answers but you're going to learn a lot more things as you move forward. I think that's one thing that I rate in you more than anything I think is the fact that we'll have a problem and it'll be down in the gym, whatever it is and you will not know the answer and you'll be honest about that.

18:06You won't just bullshit and say like I know the fix to this when you don't know because you see a lot of coaches doing that and they kind of, like you say, seem to know it all when the reality is not every coach knows, like nobody knows anything. So you're always learning. And the fact that you'll be all drawn up, say, I don't know about that, but the next day you'll come in and you would have done so much research that you have the answer. So you've kind of coming up with a solution within 24 hours. And that has happened time and time again. and the speed that you like learn and pick up stuff and I think it's purely just because you have a passion and it comes down to that passion with coaching.

18:49I think that's the reason why we probably get on so well is because you have that passion for coaching. Like I have the passion for competing, you have the passion for coaching. I think I've never met anyone in any field that's truly like great at what they do or on that path that doesn't have a passion for what they're doing. I think we'll both agree how fortunate we are to be earning a living, day-to-day life, doing something that we're super passionate about. We've often joked, what do you do when you go home at night? And I'm like, I watch YouTube videos about training or I'll read about training.

19:30We find it quite strange that, and we've had lots of conversations about this, that people can't wait to go home and watch Celebrity Love Island or something on the TV or something kind of... Something opposite to their work. Absolutely. And I think we're probably weird, weird meaning the opposite to normal and the less common kind of way that people are living is that we literally are quite obsessed with what we do. And people laugh at me when, you know, do you watch TV? No. have you watched the most recent you know whatever tv programs popular at the time are on on on the telly and i'm like no i've literally never switched it on i don't i don't think it's necessarily bad for them people but just not got time do you know what i mean i'd much rather spend my time like you said solving a problem or something but that definitely comes from that passion you know if you've not got the passion for it there's no way you're going home in what's essentially a spare time and spending another two three four hours in in in your work essentially yeah instead you're kind of like looking for an escape in whatever that might be like you say watching netflix going out with friends or whatever and that is all important as well absolutely um i feel like we are very very obsessed and some people would say oh that's not very healthy 100 % we get leveled with that don't we yeah yeah we get humbled with that quite a lot like you you come to us quite often and you say I just feel like the the friends that I used to knock around with I'm not as relatable to them people anymore or like they don't find me very relatable like we don't have the same things in common anymore um how how's that like changed throughout your time I remember listening to something on a Chris Williamson podcast and I I know he talks about this quite a lot.

21:19I think through the stages of your life, you create these relationships that are specific to that time and place and kind of maybe what job you're doing or where you're at. And some people stay there forever and that's them. But I think Chris Williamson dubs it as like the lonely phase and it's kind of like where you outgrow the people that you were with. for however long, like, I mean, school, college, university, kind of is an easy way of explaining it. And then you set off on a path and they're not necessarily on the same path, you know, and then you kind of get another bunch of people. And right now, like, three of the key people I would have, I would say in my life now are yourself, Tom and Emily, but we're all on this kind of, like, journey together, you know, and we've all got, you know, Tom's passion lies in the capturing of what's happening.

22:15you're out there executing it i'm trying to support and give you some guidance and help um so that you can go and execute it and then obviously emily has her role and she's got that support as well but we're all kind of like passionate and obsessed about the same thing and i think that's what a lot of people don't see especially being an athlete like sometimes you do have to leave people behind don't you and sometimes you do have to like make big sacrifices and people don't really understand why you're doing it. That's something I've noticed for you as well. And that's probably another thing that I think we have in common.

22:52Yeah, no, it is sad when you think about it. It's almost like you become lonelier when you find your passion because you're so obsessed with it and you want to progress. And that's how you're bothered about almost, which, like I say, probably isn't the healthiest, but to be the best at what you want to do. I don't think it's healthy. You probably wouldn't class it as a healthy, balanced life where you have the perfect balance between your friends, your family, and your work and exercise. You probably have to pick two of them out of the four and kind of go with them. And I think... But if you can be friends with people or make friends with people that are on that similar path, then they kind of understand.

23:42and I always talk about it, even down to my barber. I go to my barber because I know he's obsessed with barbering, and I know he's a great guy, and he just loves to get better, and he'll do whatever he can to get better at barbering. I couldn't relate to someone who hates their job, but still does it. And you come across that a lot, don't you, unfortunately? I mean, we live in a little bit of a bubble where a lot of the people we work with similar to us like you said passionate obsessed even with with the trade and what they're doing but um I think a lot of the population from what I see when I do kind of step out of my bubble every now and again it's kind of the opposite like almost like dread work and dread you know the day-to-day and then just live for those what are essentially short moments of going doing something like you said completely different so I don't know how do you feel about it because I feel like we're lucky we're so lucky to have is it luck i don't know because we've obviously all worked hard to get to where we are and and kind of made decisions that have been super hard like i know you left a career essentially and you've almost done that twice to to get to where you are now and there's probably loads of people that don't have the the courage to do that so yeah i don't know um it's an interesting one isn't it yeah i think it definitely is there's trade-offs like i don't think there's any right way to do it like i think someone who's got a solid career they might not absolutely love it but because they might not actually love that it gives them so much passion about the hobbies that they do outside of their work which is pretty cool as well like i've seen that and i've witnessed like some people live for the weekend i don't care really if it's a weekend like that's kind of like that like the weekend is probably the worst part of my week whereas like some for most people it's the best part of the week and they can they have better um social skills they have better social occasions like they enjoy themselves a lot more than i enjoy myself i'd probably say whereas like i think ours is just like this this constant like we don't dread a monday for example so it's just like two ways of and i don't know what's right two days of looking at it and two days of going about it but uh i don't know what's right and We've just kind of like fell into what we do.

26:03It's pretty cool. But I want to go back to, obviously after you got me pain-free, which I'd say for any athlete out there, being pain-free should be your number one goal. Because if you're pain-free and healthy, and this has been like multiple times with me, you're going to perform better than if you're fit, but you're in pain. I'd back you on that also in the sense that just the feeling, when I walk into the gym in the morning, So generally, for people that don't know, I will drop my kids at school and head straight to represent. Jake will normally already be there. And as soon as I walk through that door, your energy and motivation and enthusiasm for the day's session is probably somewhat defined by whether you're in pain or not.

26:51And when you are in pain, it's quite hard sometimes from the coach's standpoint, from my point of view, to bring energy and get your... You say that, but you're the same no matter what. I don't think that's important in a coach. If I'm feeling like shit, and sometimes I'm like, fuck this, John. But isn't that though often when you're in pain? Yeah, when I'm in pain, I'm like, I'm never going to get out of this pain. Sometimes this is what I'm feeling, my world's ending on that day. I'm like, fuck this, John. I'm in pain. I'm never going to get out of this pain. Let's just give up. Yeah, and that does happen.

27:27I know people probably think that athletes absolutely love training every day. They just don't. Some days it's a grind, some days it's a tin, some days they don't want to do it. And I'd say that probably happens as often as the days where you can't wait to do whatever we're doing. In terms of what you're touching on there about bringing energy, people often ask me, and some of the situations that I get into now on Q &As and things like that, what's the most important role of a coach? and a lot of people have experienced what athletes they've worked with, how knowledgeable they are on the science.

28:02All that's definitely important, but the number one thing is bring energy to the room. That is the number one. If I'm employing a coach at my gym, the first thing that I'm looking for, and this is from getting it wrong so many times, is what's their energy like? Can the older room, can they bring the energy up? Or do they bring the energy down? you know like you said you don't get to have a day where you can't be arsed as a coach like you have to come in and regardless of what kind of sleep you've had what your day's been like how hectic the school room was whatever you just got to walk in and and just give energy but that comes full circle to the passion I never find that difficult because I love my job and I can't wait to get in the gym and coach there's aspects of my job that I don't like of course just like there with you I don't like necessarily sitting on my computer for hours on end and staring at screens and dealing with admin I don't like that like I find that difficult and I don't like it but putting me in front of a bunch of people and training them is the fun part of the job so I love it isn't it crazy I like no matter what mood you are in the morning as a coach like I've experienced this like no matter what mood you're coming in the gym you might feel down you might might be upset, whatever, you start that class or personal training session, and you've got to be in a good mood, because at the end of the day, the person that is your client is paying for your time, so you've got to be in a good mood, no matter what, you've got to bring the energy, but that energy also just like rubs off on you, it's kind of like fake it till you make it mentality, where like you just smiling for the first 10 minutes, then puts you in a good mood, like I've never left the personal training session what i've coached or a class that i've coached and felt like shit i'm always like hyped up and buzzing and in a happy mood like because you've got to bring that energy absolutely and and you know for me it's almost like an escape from life like you've got all this stuff going on and everyone has it and sometimes things are great and sometimes they're not but you get into that coaching role and it's not for me personally it's an opportunity to forget about forget about all that financial worries worries at home stuff that you might have going on in your personal life like you you step into the coaching role and you are john the coach no one maybe knows about what's going on and it's just a really nice time where you can escape from the reality and just like you said give other people great energy feed off their energy like it almost feels as a similar effect and and i know you'll have felt this many times of and obviously a lot of people talk about this and there's loads of research, but just exercising, like sometimes you feel awful and then you don't want to train and you go into a training session and most of the time you come out of that training session and you feel better, you feel more energetic and all that.

30:56I get that same effect from coaching for sure. You know, so I love going to coach. So then that bringing that positive energy just becomes super easy in my opinion. No, that's good to hear. No, I love that. And you can tell that you've got a passion for obviously coaching. Let's go back to earlier within your career. Obviously, you've had an athletic career yourself, which most people probably won't know about. We always joke on it. I've done everything, haven't I? You have done everything. So John's one of them people, right, that he'll tell you the maddest story ever, and you're like, surely he's bullshitting.

31:34And it turns out to be true. I've never once caught you out. like me and Tom talk about it all the time Tom my videographer and we're like what John that story that John just told us like surely that's bullshit surely he's chatting shit and we then go and speak to someone else who then backs it up and said yeah I was there and it feels like I always say that you've lived seven lives within your life I think that just comes from your mindset like I've always a mindset of I love learning new things I love trying to get as many experiences as possible you know if you sit there and say to me what's your greatest fear like it's that there's not enough time to do all the cool things that are available to us you know um and I've always been like that since a kid you know I've always wanted to try new stuff I've loved learning I've loved exercise I like being outdoors like and that just then throws you into all these different situations um I'm also a believer that like you end up in them situations for a reason and it gives you something, the skill that you're going to need in the future.

32:38So, yeah, that's cool. But getting back to your question, what was it going to go down the line? Yeah, so like... Sporting background. Yeah, just kind of like sporting background. And I think as soon as you kind of mention everything that you do, people realise why you're so knowledgeable in everything that I talk about. Whether I come to you and I ask about plyometrics or I ask about strength or I ask about fitness, like you've done a sport that requires one of them in like every aspect so so go on tell us about like a couple of things that you've done so I played football um I played for Wigan Athletic until kind of like scholar age where you know people either make it or not um and then I did actually play seven or eight seasons like non-league um loved it like my first love in life is football still to this day like you know you yourself Tom Emily not really into football and probably find it weird when I've got earphones in you're like what you listen to I'm like Man United and it'll be like eight in the morning in Melbourne or something um I'm completely obsessed like and I always have been you know and football was probably where I fell in love with fitness as well to be honest um training regular um swam as a kid as well so that was completely different so So I had like team sport with football and then an individual sport with swimming.

34:02I competed in that, not to a particularly high level, but I understood the difference between being in a team and then standing on the blocks on your own and how that's different. And then kind of fell into CrossFit once the football kind of took a back seat. Competing in CrossFit to a reasonably high level, I would get to what is now semifinals most years, been part of a CrossFit Games team and been in and around the CrossFit competitive scene. I don't know about you, but I've always known that I prefer team sport and even just doing a high rocks in a pair versus I've never done a solo like you guys always.

34:47You in particular, Jake, are saying you need to do one and I will do one, but I prefer having a team that, I feel like I can push harder I feel like I can sacrifice and go to a different place where on my own I'm just not as motivated which all these experiences by the way just help you to understand what the athletes are feeling where their mindsets are the needs how it differs from event to event and like you said being through a few different sports like swimming endurance mainly an endurance sport and then you've got football which is a mixed modal sport I was exposed to Olympic weightlifting, competed in that.

35:26That's an explosive power sport. You've got CrossFit, which kind of combines a lot of things. So it just gives you a lot of experiences and a lot of tools. If I was going to say to a coach, what is the best way to learn? I'd say just having a big variety of experiences. I think you find what your niche is and you find what you're really good at. you know I quickly found out especially in CrossFit that I'm not an athlete like I don't have the passion for it you know every year I would I would get in trouble through from my fellow coaches and peers for you know going snowboarding in the middle of the CrossFit Open but I was like guys like you only live once like I'm not really asked if I come 500, 450 if I'm not bothered you know do you know what I mean I'm want to go and experience stuff so it was at that point that I knew that I wasn't an athlete because I've not got the mental capacity, I've not got the motivation to make all them sacrifices what you guys have to sacrifice.

36:28But I think kind of going through that process and understanding that, you then understand, like I fully understand the sacrifices that you need to make because I wasn't willing to make them. Do you know what I mean? So I think that gives you another tool as well when it comes to coaching, like understanding your athletes, understanding what they're going through. Going back, because obviously that was quite a few years ago, with CrossFit, like you say, you could have potentially finished higher of the rankings if you made more sacrifices. You said at the time, you wasn't prepared to make them sacrifices.

36:59Do you ever, is there any form of regret or do you think that was like the right decision to do because of like the amount you've learned? Like if you was to go back, would anything be different or would you do things exactly the same way as you did? Yeah, no. So it's a really easy one. Sometimes I think when you get asked a question about regrets, it's quite hard. you start weighing up the... I have absolutely no regret. Absolutely no regret. I just did not and still do not have the desire to sacrifice what I would consider life and experience and living to come 18th in a CrossFit competition or whatever.

37:37I just don't think that's what's going to be on my gravestone at the end of my time. I just think it's, for me, insignificant. And the decisions that I made, like if I was to go back in time, I wouldn't change a thing. I would not change a thing. That being said, the bit of sacrifice that I did make and experiencing what I did experience and understanding what it means to be kind of an athlete, so to speak, I wouldn't take that back either because all those things have kind of given me the knowledge, experience and led me to where I am now. and again I'm grateful because sat here right now I'm pretty happy with with where my life's at and the opportunities that I have and and the life that I have so moving on to like a professional athlete that is trying to make it so potentially doing not that you wasn't trying to do it you was doing the best with your given kind of expectations of yourself like you wanted to experience life take advantage of everything that life throws at you but also do well in the uh the crossfit realm what advice would you you give to someone who just wants to win like how how would you coach someone who just wants to win and they don't care about anything else and all the sacrifices that they've got to make would you would you say it's worth it would you say like would you try and stay someone away from that would just try and like yeah do you get me yeah no no never never never just because the way i have kind of seen it and lived it i 100 wouldn't then try and impose kind of how i viewed it at the time like i mean you're the perfect example like i can use my experiences and the way i made my decisions to help you justify your decisions which are the opposite do you know what I mean I think you can bring balance and and you can offer a slightly alternative perspective but the only advice I would give is just make sure it's what you want to do do you know what I mean if if you're questioning whether and don't get me wrong we question everything we question every decision we question you know every every step like should I be doing this should I not but you do come to a point where you have some clarity as to whether you really, really want to be doing what you're doing.

40:00You know, I've had great friends, colleagues, who've had the exact opposite. And interestingly, some of them have ended up in kind of where I am now. Some of them have gone on to do great things in different sports and then kind of it had a short-term shelf life and then lifespan. And then they had a great time, got some great things out of it, but then they've gone full circle instead of doing something else. I think the way I like to see it is like I read something the other day of like the average millionaire now becomes a millionaire at 49 years old. So I think what I like to say from that is like if you're young and you're trying different things, you're quite a way off finding kind of your path and what's for you.

40:43So just go out there and have some, you know, take authority in your decisions and just go and do what you want to do there and then. but also accept that over time, the way you view things and what you want will change. You don't have to tie yourself into being a coach forever or being an athlete forever. You know, like where do you see yourself in five years, 10 years, you know? Yeah, yeah, that's true. Like, I don't know, obviously the path that I'm on at the moment, I want to sacrifice everything to try and become the best person that I can be and be the best athlete that I can be. but I am aware, and I think this is what I struggle with.

41:27I am aware that for someone being the best possible athlete that they can be, you're a fucking nightmare to be around. You're speaking about yourself there, are you? About myself, I guarantee probably any athlete, like an athlete that wants to sacrifice absolutely everything isn't thinking about anyone else. it's quite selfish isn't it it's so selfish and unfortunately i'm just not naturally i'd probably say i'm not naturally that person although i've become a lot more selfish over the the time period of being an athlete like i wasn't really like that and i kind of don't want to be that trait as well like unfortunately i don't think there's any like world champs where they've not had to be so selfish The only thing I would say about that, and this is where, you know, there's selfish elements to what you're doing, but that doesn't necessarily make you a selfish person.

42:27Because, like, why do you do what you do? Like, what's the main reason why you're an athlete and you do all the things that you do? Well, I want to reach as many people as possible. Exactly. I want to send, like, a good message. So you might have some selfish actions, but actually, like, and this is why I'm more than happy to kind of put up with that. And in some ways, you know, encourage you to be like that for whatever reason, whether it's recovering better or whatever, because the underlying kind of mission and the reason why you're doing it is completely unselfish. You know, so I think being selfish to get somewhere that's got an unselfish motive, I think is virtuous.

43:11like that's something that more black people should do and it almost comes full circle and it's like selfless because you you're being selfish and you're potentially missing out on opportunities in different parts of your life for a completely unselfish reason essentially you know what I mean and and it's always a balance because obviously like we all need to make a living and do this and do that but if you were just a completely selfish arsehole like I wouldn't be that motivated to help do you know what i mean but the fact that you're doing it for unselfish reasons makes again it quite easy to kind of go out your way to help someone if that makes sense yeah and i suppose there's a line but like you'll speak to some people and for example this is like a really like bougie thing and like i don't want anyone to kind of like uh i don't know judge me on this but like most pro athletes and the top level athletes there's a prime example will fly business class on long haul fights but but we know though that that makes such a big difference yeah yeah it makes such a big difference obviously you can perform better at the other side absolutely there is not a chance i am going flying business when i'm flying with all you guys i'm not letting you go in economy and me going business there is not a fucking chance i'm doing that on earth is that mainly because tom would kick off probably because tom would kick off yeah but because you know for well i'd be like bro go and get on it like i'm just coaching i don't have to run around a thousand mile an hour around a track with all that pressure and all that i'd be like go and have business class you know if i could afford for us all to go then that we'd be going business but until that point yeah we are all flying economy together see that's that's where i disagree with you and i would be like bro go and be selfish it's completely justified you know all tom's got to do is hold the camera all i've got to do is stand there and smile and tell you what to do like you're the one that's got to go and you know me flying economy class it's not going to make any difference to my coaching performance like it just isn't like i cannot give you some scientific evidence to suggest that me flying economy is not going to allow me to be the best coach like that's that's bullshit but i could find you loads and loads of data that would back up the athlete side of it and the going performing feats of athleticism so like go and do it do you know what i mean but but i wouldn't even see that as stuff yeah completely makes sense yeah and i know you'd see that but like it's just not something i'm prepared to do like i i don't care like i i just have some morals in life and like i i don't see myself better as n than anyone else like you're trying to be a world champion whatever that is like something a defining moment and it takes one percent out of your performance that then means you're not world champion i tell you what if if that was the case i'd be happy with second place yeah and that's the the balance into it yeah like that that's just but i think going back to what you said you you i don't think i've ever heard you say you want to be world champion and i don't think that's a weakness by the way i'm not saying that because i think like you know you have to believe it before it'll happen blah blah blah like you often just say i want to be the best athlete that i can be you know now that might be the best athlete that i can be that's not willing to do business class because my friends and people I'm travelling with are not business class.

46:28Do you know what I mean? But I think that gives clarity to your mission. Like, you know, some people are just that arrogant and ignorant and it's like, I just want to be world champion and I'll do anything. I'll step over people, I'll trample on people. In some places I'll cheat. You know, like we've seen it in every sport. Like some people are literally willing to compromise, like everything to be just world champion. And some people just aren't. Do you know what I mean? Does that make them a better athlete? I don't know. It's like when you go to an event and you're walking to the venue, you've got a race.

47:03Sometimes I'll have a race and it'll be starting in less than five minutes' time and someone asks me for a photo. I'm always going to take that photo. I'm never going to say, nah, fuck off, I've got a race in five minutes and this means so much to me or whatever. At the end of the day, they're the supporters that allow you to do this and that's the people that you need to respect. And I think, yeah, before winning, you've got to be a good person, I think. I prioritise being a good person over winning. I think you draw the line at what you're willing to sacrifice on. Am I willing to sacrifice being a good person to win?

47:40Yeah. You know, there's probably people out there that are like, for sure there is, I'm sure we could find examples, but I'm definitely not willing to do that. do you know what I mean and I feel like you're not either and maybe that makes me a shit athlete I don't care but at the end of the day like I think morals come before like being a great athlete in my opinion like at the end of the day like it is serious do you know people are making money off it and everything but with High Rocks we are just running round in circles with running you are just running from A to B like when you take it like that like there's more things that are more important in life.

48:21100%. And for some times, I mostly see this as a bit of a superpower if you have that mentality. A clear example recently, Tom Evans. He's just won UTMB. But before he won UTMB, he had a child and he was like, I don't care about what athlete I am. I want to be a good dad before I'm a good athlete. but him taking the pressure off being a world-class athlete and being the best athlete that he can be and just being a good dad made him perform better within uh the UCMB he actually won it which you know he's never he's never won before so like that to me just shows and if you look at like all the studies time and time again once you take that pressure off being the athlete or competing in a certain race and that pressure off normally you enjoy it more and normally that enjoyment leads to performing better within the race completely agree with that and that's been you know my experience working with different people like the the mindset side of it and and like you say almost defining yourself as whether you're going to win this world championship or not is really dangerous because like the the margin for success is tiny then and if you just go into the race like you said, as a good happy human, I'd argue that you've probably got a better chance of winning and that probably translates over to just life in general No, no, it definitely is a...

49:53It's definitely something with having kids though, I can speak from experience for that it gives you a slightly different perspective you know, like people will say I don't want to have kids because I'm an athlete and I'll wait till I've stopped being an athlete I just think to myself, because my motivation to do certain things just the amount of energy that you have and the discipline and all these different that you when you come back to you know selflessness like i'd argue that everyone's selfish until you have children like i don't think anyone without children can truly say they put anyone else ahead of themselves i think it would go against kind of like human nature and survival instinct and what's got us to this point like but then once you have a child it's impossible to even explain to someone who's not got a child but you you hold this thing that's completely dependent on you that's your own blood like it it's completely kind of like earth-shattering experience that completely changes your whole perspective on life and I think for some people and the um example of Tom Evans are like it makes you better you know it almost gives you another level more strength to to go and compete do you think having kids made you a better coach 100 % 100 % like when you talk about regrets earlier my previous experience of working with let's say high level CrossFit athletes some of the regrets I had was not understanding the athletes probably being selfish a little bit if I'd have had the experience and the mindset that I have now I would have done a much better job helping support those athletes back then in like the kind of like 2012 to 2017 kind of like when I was involved with the CrossFit athletes like and a big part of that is like being a parent you know like my kids came along in 2015 and 2017 the first bit of it is a bit of a whirlwind and then you know you start to you truly start to kind of like grow up become a man maybe is a saying that people might say just becoming like less self-centered like you are one of the least self-centered people that I know like I've on countless occasions I've said oh John do you want to jump into this session so you because I know that you've got a busy day I was like do you want to jump in this session so you can uh get your training done for the day and then you don't have to worry about it after or whatever and you're like no I need to be eyes on I'll train after don't worry about me we're focusing on you right now I think that's just knowing your roles though isn't it like my My role and I set out my time that's dedicated to you, some days I might be like, yeah, Jake will jump in because that might be the role.

52:35It might be like a motivator or pace setter or someone who's just going to help you through a tough session or whatever. But if I feel like I need to be watching what you're doing and that's my greatest value in that moment, then that's why I'm there. but I think that goes right back to me understanding and accepting I'm not an athlete do you know what I mean I'm not an athlete when did that change then 2015 ish so when you had your first child I think in and around that time you have these things of I'm not going to have a kid yet because I'm going to double down on training or business or whatever we've all been there and everyone goes through that and I was never like that I was just like, I want kids.

53:22Like at 22, when I got my first house with my partner at the time, I was like, I want kids now. You know what I mean? And if she'd have said, let's do it, I'd have had kids at 22 for sure. How old were you? 26 when Lucy was born and 28 when Ben were born. So, yeah. Quite young though. Reasonably young in this day and age. But if I'd have done it at 22, do you know what I mean? And it's little things like that. I just realised I wasn't an athlete. like I've not got that passion that I have that I have for coaching for being an athlete so for me to just turn around and say to you no Jake I'm just going to watch and coach and do my job that's again easy because I understand my role and I think um I don't know this is a question that I often ask myself there's lots of athletes that undoubtedly coach as well and like maybe They sell online programs and do all these different things and do seminars and kind of like they're almost like an athlete coach.

54:25I don't understand why they do it, because obviously they can make money from it and other things. Also, they probably do want to kind of pass on their experience and their knowledge, which is cool. But do you think being an athlete coach is detrimental to the coaching side of that from your experience? oh that is a great question it depends i'd say it depends because you need an element of walking the walk i think the best coaches are the people like yourselves who have been there done that and then just realized had the realization by either potentially not being good enough or moving into a different phase of the life that their athletic career is potentially up yes they They still can compete at stuff, but it's for fun.

55:13And they're still not trying to make it. And just accepting that their main responsibility is being a coach. They are the best coaches. If you're still wanting to be an athlete, then unfortunately, you're still putting yourself first. And if you're putting yourself first, you can't be the best coach. Constantly, all you're thinking about is when you're going to get your training session in, when you're going to weep, when you're going to recover, when you're going to next compete. and that is great for being the main character, the athlete. But if you're serving someone else, then you can't think like that.

55:51You've got to think, when are they going to get their training in? When are they going to eat? That becomes before my training and I think that's very hard to do if you're a coach and an athlete. So I think that the best possible athletes are the ones that have been there and done that. There are coaches that haven't been there and done that and potentially set workouts that they've never done. And I think that's quite tough. I think what is on paper, especially as a coach, what you set on paper isn't exactly what you've got to kind of like, Hunter McIntyre talks about this a lot. There's kind of like scientists, there's like data on sheets and then there's field data.

56:33And it's actually going out in the field, testing it. so yeah you've kind of got to have this where you've done it in the past you know what's good you know you've been there done that and then you've also kind of like faced the fact that you're not going to be a pro athlete you're going to do it for fun training is probably second or third on your priority list in the day and coaching is before that yeah and i think that's what you do perfectly the other thing i think that is important about a coach is that you're still sticking your toe in every now and again like for you to transition over to hyrox like you wasn't a professional athlete within hyrox but you for you to be a hyrox coach you need to go into the ring you need to know what a hyrox actually consists of and i like i've i've actually witnessed it you've become a better hyrox coach since you've started doing hyrox and that's why I keep pushing you to do solos because I think you'll get even better as a coach when you do a solos because I think it's just something that you've kind of got to do to understand what your athletes are going through.

57:41Totally agree with that and I think one philosophy that I've always had, you touched on a couple of things there and the first one is I would never like to be in a situation where I've asked someone, one of my athletes, one of my clients, whatever, to do something that I'm not willing to do myself, either I haven't done or I don't still currently do. Even when we went to Melbourne, I specifically wanted to do a race in Melbourne because I wanted to understand what it felt like to get on a 20-something hour flight, experience the difference in time zones in a relatively short period, I think it was 10 days or nine days.

58:25What does that then feel like on the competition floor? You know, how much harder is it when you've done all that? You've, you know, been eating different food, living essentially at a completely different time. Like, and the takeaway was exactly what I thought it would be, that it definitely has an impact and it's definitely something that needs considering. You know, so I think walking the walk and continuing to, like you said, dip your toe and jump in the ring is super important for me from a coaching standpoint. I don't envisage a time when I won't do that. I can literally sit here as a 60-year-old version of me and think, well, I might have a 60-year-old athlete, so I need to understand what it's like doing it as a 60-year-old and the challenges that come with that.

59:09What training volume can you manage at that time? What needs to change? What's the actual race event feel like? Does the warm-up change? Does the fueling strategy change? like I think humans learn for experience and I think most of your knowledge probably comes from not just reading something but actually going experiencing it you know and I like to what another one of my philosophies is like you've got the science like and my background I am a scientist like I've I've formally learned sports science applied physiology like that was where I started when it, you know, before actually getting into coaching around that time, I went to university and did all that.

59:49There's the science side of it, but then there's the art of coaching as well, which is like you said, just because something says something on paper, what does that actually look like in reality? And we've all been there. We've all seen some, you know, coaches that have probably become a little bit disconnected with the in-person side of it. And they write a workout and you think, and there might be a target time or a rep scheme or something. And it's like... Completely different. You've obviously never done it. or seeing it be done or whatever, because that in reality is just not going to work out with what it says on paper.

1:00:22So I think to be a great coach, you need to be 50 % scientist, 50 % coach in terms of the art of coaching. And I try and reflect that in my day-to-day. I probably do 50 % of my work writing programmes and 50 % of my work working with humans in person, delivering sessions and exercises. I think it's like if I was to say like to any coach anyone who wants to become good at coaching like there's if there's a number of things that I'd suggest but one of them would be don't just become an online coach don't just get obsessed with the numbers and the data I see a lot of people like HIV training and just these different training methodologies that you see that are based on like if you wake up in the morning and you watch says you're red you can't train like that's great but actually like in reality it's probably not going a workout like that so i think having an understanding of the science and the data but also feeling it experiencing it smelling it all the stuff that happens in person is super important as well um and i wouldn't like to say like if someone said what's more important i couldn't give you an answer i don't think either's more important than the other i think they're both exactly the same yeah no i i completely agree uh in regards to someone who's looking to get better say if it's hierarchy, say if it's CrossFit, and they're looking for a coach, what would you say to look for within a coach?

1:01:50Is there a specific style of coach that you should kind of pick? Yeah. This is a good question, right? And I've actually got, I think, a pretty good answer for this. And this is something, again, that comes up a lot and we get asked a lot. So I see coaching, and the easiest analogy I can put to this is being a teacher. We've all been to school and we all understand the education process. And this is one of the things that I'd look for when I'm picking a coach. When you go to primary school, it's very dictatorial. It's like the teacher clearly has more knowledge than you. You're there to kind of listen.

1:02:25You're there to do what the teacher says. And there isn't really a great amount of conversation. It's like, this is this, learn it, practice what I'm telling you to practice and get better. And I think that's the beginner in anything. So if you're very low experience and you've not been doing something for very long, you're in that phase where you need to pick someone that you believe in what they say and you're willing to just listen and do as you're told. Once you then start to progress through school, you go to kind of like high school, it still probably remains mainly kind of that same sort of dictatorial vibe.

1:03:01but there starts to be conversations there starts to be a moment where you're not just listening to what someone says and accepting it you're starting to question things you're starting to ask your own questions you're starting to find your own way you're starting to maybe even in some aspects become smarter than the teacher because you might have an interest that they don't and you go down a slightly different route and then the final evolution of that is like university at university if you go in at university level with people that have been you know let's say you're teaching on a PhD course or something and you're kind of trying to tell people this is fact this is how it is then you're gonna fall short because we all know that especially in science like what we knew 100 years ago we now know is wrong what's going to happen in the next 100 years is probably going to be wrong so it's a much more conversational style so for me like primary school teacher that's a beginner in in any sport or fitness or whatever university that's an elite athlete like there'll be certain things especially about your body and your training that you know more than me about so it's not my job to come in and be like jake do this this this and this it's more of a conversation it's more of a problem solving as a as a team and i think when you're looking for a coach if you understand where you sit on that spectrum of beginner to elite athlete it then helps you to find a coach who's got the right style so if it's someone that you can sense straight away is very much like Monday you do this don't ask questions do it Tuesday you do this that's probably going to serve you quite well if you're quite new and inexperienced and you're at the start of the journey if you're an elite athlete with your own ideas then you probably need someone who's a little bit more conversational someone who's going to problem solve with you not necessarily be super dictatorial but more like try and help to guide you pass on their knowledge and experience not trying to enforce a certain way like the worst thing i ever hear a coach saying is like i've done it with like such a body and then quote like an athlete that they work with so i'm going to do it with you could be a completely different set of problems which doesn't have the same set of answers if that makes sense so i think for me that's something big you know that's a good point you know and like we do it all the time like i'll quite often and You probably sometimes think I'm a bit resistant to just writing a program down, but it's because I know that I want your perspective on what you want it to look like and then we build it together because I think that that's the best solution for you.

1:05:39If I thought the best solution was for me to go, shut up, Jake, and just do as you're fucking told, then that's probably what I would do. I think great coaches, by the way, if you find a great coach and you're lucky enough, are able to switch from being a primary school teacher to a university lecturer, depending on what's in front of them. You know what I mean? If you get someone who's only working with elite athletes, then they're probably not going to be great for a beginner. And if you get someone who's only worked for beginners, they're probably not going to be great for an elite athlete.

1:06:07I think as your experience as a coach grows, then you've probably got the tools to work with all different types of people. Yeah, I completely agree. would you say what's the the gold standard of coaching in terms of i always say in person is like the gold standard and what someone if they want a fast track to anything like if they want to progress as fast as possible and be as efficient as possible i just feel like you can't get that from online like there's great coaches that are just online coaches and like i say you can learn so much but like I think there's just an element of someone being hands-on in person if they are a great hands-on in-person coach that is uh that I think is just important 100 % we've always spoke about this haven't we um there is absolutely no way an online program can even come close like the best most science-backed well-thought-out structured online program gets beat by a decent in-person coach in my opinion I sell online programs and I lose clients every month because they come to me and say I've got an opportunity to work with an in-person coach and I'm like cancel your subscription go and get and get eyes on you hands on you like learn you The process of learning as an athlete will just be so much faster.

1:07:41I will often try and, I'm not going to lie, most of my one-to-one online clients are people that I just see and then write the training for the rest of the week when I don't see them. I don't actually have that many online clients that I never see in person and do a PT session with, if that makes sense, because I think it's just an extension of the in-person, if that makes sense so yeah completely agree however it's not always easy to find a skilled in-person coach these days because I think the trend seems to be you know do 50 hours of in-person coaching and then move to Dubai and have a successful online program business which is cool but it's kind of from a gym owner's perspective I always find it really difficult to bring great in-person coaches into my gym because they don't exist.

1:08:35They're hard to come by. So you've got to weigh it up. If you've got access to a great in-person coach, I would say that is the gold standard. But if you don't, then find the best person online. Absolutely. And there's more and more tools online now where you can do video analysis, voice calls. You can have someone who runs you through the details of your program. Maybe some of the stuff that almost is as good as having an in-person coach. so I think it's probably just finding that balance well if you just look at like top athletes now we're in a sport where it's very new, Harrochs is very new but if you look across the board at any professional sport, we're talking like NFL, NBA professional football, rugby like everyone's got in-person coaches, like they meet in person and they're hands on, on the ground and there's a reason for that imagine this imagine I'm a Man United fan so I'm always going to use them as the example imagine turning up at Carrington where they train just to observe and they're all signing into an iPad or a computer or the phone for finding an online programme do you know what I mean it's not happening it's not happening in any sport ever don't get me wrong there's athletes that are doing stuff that's written on a piece of paper or an app that are at the top of the game but that's on top of working with an in-person coach, whether it's in a group environment, whether it's in a one-to-one environment, probably a combination of both.

1:10:05Do you know what I mean? So I think the trend to kind of the online side of it is something that will slowly but surely come full circle and you'll find that more and more people gravitate towards in-person coaching because they understand, like we just said, that's probably the gold standard. It's a better time as well. At the end of the day, if you find a sick in-person coach, you have a good time training. It's always a good time. You're doing it on your own, isn't it? Do you know what I mean? You know that more than anyone. At the end of the day, we're all living this life to make memories and you make more memories having a laugh with your coach when you're training, putting in the hard work with someone, grinding it out with someone else.

1:10:51It's just better. and that's why I appreciate it more than anything and I value it, I think. But yeah, no. You gravitate towards that in everything though, don't you? Do you know what I mean? Like you are constantly seeking out those in-person, you know, like you've in the past touched on running coaches, you've touched on like... It's hard for online as well. I wanted to touch on actually, this brings me onto a good point. I think I am a really bad client or athlete in regards to listening to a coach. How does, I think like a relationship between a coach and an athlete is definitely a two-way relationship.

1:11:41People are more coachable than others. And I think it's something that I need to work on. I need to become more coachable. so so yeah i understand what you're saying but i think it goes back to my previous point of of i think everyone's coachable i just think that some people are only coachable by a finite amount of people that maybe don't aren't very common i think i don't think you're a difficult person to work with at all there's if you came if i lived on a different continent and you was like john i want you to write me on my program like there's no point like well we've had that before like find yourself an in-person coach you know if you want me to help you find someone what have you do a bit of research you know i'd happily help you'd be a terrible like online client because you like to have your own input you like to go off how you feel you know you you have to justify everything that you can do and that takes time you know i'd like to think i never asked you to do anything that I don't think I could justify but it's not about me justifying it's about you justifying it it's like if you don't feel like it has worth you'll not do it and that that's that I think is a strength you're saying it is like being a negative I think it's a strength I think from my experience of working with a bunch of elite athletes now I'm fortunate enough to whether it be work with a few elite elite elite 15 athletes like as in be the coach or just be around them like you have to be self-automated when it comes to being an athlete you cannot sit back put your hands underneath your bum sit on your hands and just be like I'm just going to do as I'm told you just can't because even if you're my number one athlete number one client think of it this way if I've got 20 clients and you're paying half of my wage I'm probably going to give you 50 % of my time right and in reality it's probably less than that how much time do you give yourself 100 so why on earth would you give complete and utter control to a human who is maybe putting half or a quarter of the amount of time and effort into into you do you know what i mean like i think a lot of coaches get wrapped up in being like the main character oh i'm this fantastic coach like i'm writing these programs that's getting everyone 10 minute pbs and and all that and it's like hang on a minute like you just do you have any more value than the gym that they're training at or the equipment that they're using or the bed that they're sleeping in you know like maybe maybe not like you're just another tool you're just a guide you know and once you understand that i think it because coaching becomes easier like yeah there's two ways of working on it like you'll get coach's perspective is and I know this because I speak to other coaches you know if an athlete does well it's because they've unlocked something with the training program or the coaching if an athlete does shite it's because they didn't execute properly that's the coach's perspective the athlete's perspective is if they win it's because they've executed really well and they've showed up and they've done the thing if they do shite it's because the coach hasn't coach them properly i'll give them the right program and i think like we can learn from each other like it's not as simple as either like and it's not all that like like you just mentioned there like a coach is probably even though like a coach is like very much valued like to a person's or an athlete's progression it's probably 20 it's a percentage it's not even probably it's definitely not 100 yeah like that's just a fact if you could probably run any training program of if you have the best coach in the world and you're sleeping for four hours a night and smoking and eating crap you're gonna be shite like and you have the best athlete sorry the best coach so like that's just enough to know that you know as a coach we probably like to put a bit more importance on ourselves i personally don't like you know i think from experience you know i've learned that the role is significant it's very important and we can definitely have an impact but it's just one of a number of important things i suppose though if you think about it like it is what like the programming whatever the coach's job is which you'd probably say is the programming the the training side of it is the like 10 or 20 that's making a change but a coach if they're good enough will be able to have a say on everything.

1:16:19It definitely influence everything. So you should be, if you know my training location shit, you should be saying, Jake, go find a new training location that's better. Train with people. You've had all these conversations with me. You're like, Jake, you need to train with people. Jake, you need to sleep more. Jake, you need to travel less. Or Jake, you need to train less. Or Jake, you need to go and enjoy time with your friends and family more. But we're just a guide. You know, like, if you think of the traditional Disney story, you have a hero. At some point, the hero has, like, an issue that they need to overcome, and they find a guide, and it'll be someone who's maybe done a similar journey or got some experience that hero's not yet had, and they're just passing on that knowledge, but they're just letting the hero be the hero and learn from their own experiences.

1:17:04And that's how I see, kind of, like, working with an elite athlete, you know? you are someone who is just passing on experience a bit of knowledge helping also like someone who can bounce ideas off you know we work quite a lot where it's like you'll ask me a question and I give you my genuine best opinion sometimes you listen sometimes you don't you know you take that advice you take that guidance and weigh up what you want to do with it you know and I think that's the right way to be I think becoming self-automated it's my job to teach you and give you as much of my experience as possible to fast track your learning process you know what i mean and i think that's what it is for me personally coaching i don't think it's grabbing hold of someone and saying this is how you do it because i did it with someone else you know we can apply stuff that we know that's worked with someone else but it's up to the athlete to figure out what works best for them interesting right i want to touch on like a i want to ask you like people would probably think this is like an awkward question and you see this a lot in my opinion is it's quite toxic but you have athletes and they have coaches and they won't let their coach or they'd definitely have a problem with their coach if their coach went and coached a competitor yeah and obviously the other way around as well like if if say an athlete goes and speaks to another coach, the coach will get offended.

1:18:35What's your opinion on all of that? So this is something obviously that we've experienced because I don't know how many people know, but I obviously coach you and I coach Liam, who is consistently in the Elite 15 and a direct competitor. I think there needs to be a level of respect. There's certain people in the Elite 15 that I would not coach because I feel like it would be disruptive to the work between me and you. Now, you might say, John, you can coach whoever you want or you might have opinions on it. I'm not sure, but you're trying to find a balance. You're trying to, as a coach, you want to work with and help as many people as possible.

1:19:14Do you know what I mean? But it's just a bigger picture, isn't it? And it's like, but at the same time, like you often, you know, speak to other coaches, get advice. We do, that's part of the learning process, I think. Like I'm totally comfortable with it. I'd like to think you're pretty comfortable with it. What's your opinion on that? I think it's probably a bit weird the first time it happens, but I think when it does first happen and you realise it doesn't really make a difference, as long as, obviously, I'll just give an example. Imagine if I come 15th in a race, so I come bang last in a race, and you're coaching Liam, and Liam comes first, and you come to me after the race, like jumping with joy, because you're like, oh, Liam's fucking won.

1:20:02And like, but you're never like that. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think that would be kind of like a kick in the dick. Absolutely. But I think if you can't see that, not even as a coach or an athlete, just as a human, then you've got something wrong with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But just having a bit of a sad thing, but like, obviously you're going to be happy for Liam and you're going to be jumping with joy with Liam, but just don't be doing it like in front of the person who's probably not got the result that they want. And, you know, you do that very well. Like you, but I think it's great that you coach other elite 15 athletes because they are like, literally yesterday, we were talking about Liam and you was like, you know what Liam really does a lot of that I think we should potentially start incorporating is plyometrics.

1:20:50And it's kind of like you're learning what they're doing and what's improving them. And that could potentially be then passed on to, like we're all just making each other better absolutely and if you see it like that then i want you to go and coach as many elite 15 athletes as you can so i touched on this earlier didn't i like in the last 18 months i've had the most exposure to high level athletes and coaches that i've ever had and i feel like that's translated to learning the most in the shortest amount of time my job is to serve you in the sense that giving you the best possible tools the best possible knowledge, advice, coaching, that comes from learning.

1:21:25If I pigeonhole myself to one athlete, you're only getting one experience, you're only going to get one version of what it means to be an Elite 15 athlete. You're only going to see a certain percentage of the stuff that could make the athlete better. Do you know what I mean? One thing I will say though is like, and this is something that I made clear, said to Liam, and I don't even think we've ever had this conversation, but like I put the most of my time and energy I get the most financial reward so I'm happy to put that on the table from working with you whether that be directly or indirectly so Liam is a guy who lives a few hundred miles away that I speak to on the phone probably two or three times a week I don't do any in-person work with him and I write his programme I try and see him at competitions but Liam is secondary to you not because he's better or worse and he's like right now let's admit it like he's better he's performing so much better the data would suggest he's a couple of minutes faster he's in the elite 15 solos so some people say why do you not give him the most time like it's that conversation i had with liam when he first ever approached me i was like i don't see there being a problem of me coaching you and coaching jake but jake is the number one priority not because jake's better or worse or because i like him more or less but because i've put most of my time and energy into it.

1:22:50Jake's put a lot of time and energy into me and that's just where we're at right now. Do you know what I mean? And I think if you have that conversation and Liam understands that and he's completely happy with that and I fulfil a role that Liam needs, that's great. If Liam came to me next week and I found a great in-person coach in Glasgow that I can work with every day, I'd be like, bro, best of luck. I'm always here if you need me. But I'm not going to turn around and say, you know two two a couple of phone calls in an online program is going to match that so go and get it if that's what you feel like you want do you know what i mean it's interesting i think we've both uh i feel like that's something that me and you are on the same page with though so i don't think it ever becomes a massive issue because you know like going back to finding a coach find someone that's on a level with you you know if you speak to anything they're strange and like they have wild opinions and wild thoughts just on life and everything else like and it's completely out of line with with me and how i think about things and it's probably not going to work like you have to have a base commonality i think with the coach and i said for coaches as well like if you've got an athlete that you think it's a bit of a dick and and they're not going to listen to what you're saying and all these different conversations that you're having with yourself then it's probably not going to work do you know what i mean yeah as well like like a prime example like like say you working with Williams prime example uh the other the other week I went and had a coffee with Tiago who's Alex's coach and I just simply asked like how how you see kind of like my current lifestyle my current training current thing like would you change anything would you not would you would you do this and just having like his thoughts and input I'd then come back to you and I'm like this is what Tiago said like let's have a chat and then potentially down the line we might be going and doing a training camp with Thiago.

1:24:41All I see there, genuinely, so maybe I'm not as protective of myself or selfish or whatever, but I'm just excited that we get a new perspective on shit. Do you know what I mean? I don't feel threatened in the slightest. And actually, that conversation opened up. I've bumped into Thiago now two or three times at Elite 15 races, and there's been a politeness and a respect, and we've said, all right, mate. East Portuguese obviously doesn't say, all right, mate, but you understand what I'm saying but um he then after that conversation physically like seen me across the room walked over came and gave me an hug and we had we had a little chat do you know what I mean so like why would I not encourage the chance for me not only you to learn from someone who's as good as that and and as good of a coach as that like I think it's such a short sighted like I speak to all the coaches and all the athletes because it's just an opportunity to learn do you know what I mean yeah doesn't mean that you know would I be upset if you if you turn around and said John I'm going to go and get coached off to your go I probably would be on some level but at the same time I'd be like I trust you and respect you enough to if you think that's what you need to be the best possible athlete then the alternative would be me saying I don't want you to be the best possible athlete or my own ego saying I'm a better coach or whatever which I just can't ever envisage a situation where I'd react like that as a 26 year old like when I said going back 10 12 years 100 % would have had that so when you talk about like having kids and growing as a human and the experience does it benefit you as a coach 100 % 100 % because a 26 year old me would have been pissed off would have like argued maybe I'd have gone down a route of like trying to convince you not to make that decision like that definitely would have been a thing whereas now I'd just be like if that's what Jake believes is what he needs then that's what he needs you know I just find it like like mind blowing like when you and people obviously do take it like a little bit serious maybe they've looked at other sports and seeing how they react and stuff like that.

1:26:56But like you just said there, you'd like to speak to every coach and like to speak to every athlete and be friendly with every athlete. I think that's the bare minimum everyone should be doing because at the end of the day, it's not that serious. Like, yes, there's a winner and then there's 14 losers. But like be a decent person before that even comes into consideration because like I say, we're all there to learn. We're in a sport that's growing and a sport that we all want to do as best as we can, why don't we help each other? And that's why we're trying to come up with potential ways of can we do athlete training camps?

1:27:35Can we go and train with literally our competitors? But can we create a bond and a friendship where we can be happy for each other winning? I think it's a unique environment though with Hyrox as well because it's completely different to this, but I liken it a little bit to golf. So it's like you can go out there and it's you versus the course. Do you know what I mean? You can't influence what anyone else is capable of. You can maybe grab hold of someone who's a bit inexperienced and drag them around a bit fast at the start and kind of have an influence in that sense. But the other people are out there doing their thing.

1:28:09You're doing your thing. If you go out and do your best ever score and PB by two minutes, but 10 people have gone faster, there's nothing you can do about it. Do you know what I mean? So I think in a sport where you're potentially physically affecting the other human, so let's say a fight sport or something like that, I think maybe you don't want to be in each of us' pocket all the time. But for you guys, there's nothing to be gained through having a conflict with someone, in High Rocks, in my opinion, because you can't influence their performance. There's nothing you can do to slow them down.

1:28:48You can't grab hold of him or trip him up or throw the rowing machine over the fence. Like, you're both just racing the same course, and whoever plays the course, the best wins. And that's just the way the sport is. So what's the point in having conflict? What are you going to gain? Yeah. And all right, yeah, maybe you're super egotistical and you think you have the best training methodology and you don't want anyone else to know. I don't think anyone I think everyone's more coming from a point of we're here to learn, we're here to understand different perspectives on things I think the longer that high rock stays like that the quicker it'll develop, I think the minute it becomes more like more traditional sports and everyone's gatekeeping and everyone's pigeonholed to a specific style of training, I think that will slow the progress down a little bit So I welcome this kind of age of our ups at rim where everyone's a little bit open about what they're doing, willing to train together, willing to share ideas, willing to sit down for coffees.

1:29:56Tiago, sitting down with you, that's a slight risk because does that annoy Alex? It was actually nice because Tiago said before this, he said, Jake, I'll be honest, before this, I had a conversation with Alex. He said, I didn't know what you wanted, like me like what i wanted um whether it was you could have just turned around and said can i have his full program yeah can i have his full what does anyone want can i tiago can i get coached off you can i tiago do you want to come on the podcast like there was so many things up tiago like i literally like with me me and tiago like just said should we meet for a coffee like that but he didn't like so he had that conversation with alex beforehand and alex was absolutely fine which just shows i think the the the maturity of respect and i think everyone within the the sport of high rocks i think everyone's getting more more mature like you go in that elite 15 lounge everyone's sound like there's no no beds there's no there's no people that are like weird or like not speaking to anyone like everyone's in the same position and i think that's because it's so humble there's such a wild variety of people as well in the right yeah yeah there is but I think because like at the end of the day everyone's newly like either on the brink of becoming a professional athlete or just become a professional athlete so everyone's kind of like this humble thing they're so excited they're so new to it and they know it can be taken away at any point so why don't we just be nice to everyone and I think especially in the male side of it it's definitely like you want to see it like before after like it's so chilled in the elite 15 line everyone's chatting it's so funny actually we've got the um we've got the semi-permanent tattoos and it is the strangest thing ever when you walk into that room we've got to have them like on our backs and on our chest you all like tattooing each other everyone's tattooing each other it looks like it does look a bit strange a little bit odd and but yeah it's just it's just what happens which is uh crazy because you like you say you're about to go to war with these people and against these people.

1:32:03Touching on the kind of like gatekeeping side of things as well and the kind of like, you know, some sports, you'd have this reaction where if an athlete and a coach in sport that maybe shouldn't have, everything would cause a problem and friction and stuff. I just think with Irox as well, there's an understanding that like, there's different ways of doing it. Everyone's different. You know, what works for Alex won't necessarily work for you. It won't necessarily, you know, Sean Noble, every conversation I have with him, I love it because some of the stuff he does, I'm like, you know, nine out of ten people would probably die.

1:32:34So, like, the fact that there's such a varied approach, there's differing athletes. You've got Hunter, who's very much, like, not an endurance athlete. He is, but he doesn't train like one. He's, like, doing crazy workouts, like, lifting big weights. He's very strong. And then you've got someone like Tim, who's quite clearly an endurance athlete, and he's strong in his own right, but you wouldn't put him in the same category as someone like Hunter. But, yeah, they go out on a track and they finish 10 seconds apart. So that's cool as well because there isn't, and I hope that stays because I think that's my philosophy anyway, there isn't just one way of doing anything, especially when it's a mixed modal event as Hyrox is.

1:33:12I think it might go closer and closer together, but I think right now because people are coming from so many different backgrounds, they just need completely different training programs. So like you say, Tim coming from the endurance part, he probably needs to work on a little bit more strength So his workouts and his training regime is probably a little bit more strength orientated compared to Hunter, who probably doesn't. Or he might do because he might think his mentality might be, let me work on my strengths to make my strengths even stronger. So they kind of like... You're very clearly out on the track, haven't you?

1:33:45I think this is an interesting discussion. This is something we talk about as coaches a lot as well. You've got very clearly, you've got some people who are dying on the runs, but then super chill on the stations, fast, but it's clearly like relatively easy for them versus people that are very clearly comfortable with their running speed and then dying on the stations. You know what I mean? And you can think of a few athletes that come to mind, but there's that distinction between the two different types of athletes, I think. And I find that quite interesting. Touching on a training methodology, I think it's quite important to tie into this a little bit, is that so I've been criticised sometimes through displaying a programme that appears to have no easy days because it might be like a strength and high rocks focus on a Monday, a run on a Tuesday, strength and high rocks focus on a Wednesday, run on Thursday for the whole week.

1:34:42I always tell people they should have at least one day off and it can be flexible depending on the person. But on the face of it, it looks like you're doing strength, hard running session strength hard running session strength hard running session but something that I've kind of become aware of myself training for high rocks and also working with certain athletes like it really depends on your background like I can program a strength session for Hunter and Tim and for Hunter it would be easy and for Tim it would be hard in the sense that all the metrics all the data the way they feel their IPE everything would be completely different because you've got one person who's come from that background.

1:35:23On the same note, you could give me a 10k easy run and that's like a big strain. You know, if I'm talking like whoop strain, 17 or 18, 10, 12k easy run, you know, five minute pace, whatever. You give that to Alfie Manthorpe and it's probably a 10 strain or maybe even less. It's the same training session. me and Alfie could come and do a session in the gym and it could be a hard crossfit workout and it's giving me a 10 strain and giving Alfie an 18 strain so like when we're talking about hard versus easy days you have to understand that different athletes have different hard days and easy days we kind of touched on this like in the last few days the strength days don't have to be hard days they can be just quality work but having that clear focus that suits you as an athlete as to which are your hard days and which are your easy days I think is something super important.

1:36:17Interesting. I never even thought about that, like you say. And a clear example of that where it's happened to me is normally a strength day is an easy day for me. But returning from the marathon prep back into High Rocks, I'm sore after the strength days because I didn't do it for a while. Makes sense, doesn't it, really, when you think about it? Yeah. So you've got to kind of allow for that, allow where you are within your prep based off prior experience. And I think that's all like the skill of a coach and the questions a coach should be asking. They shouldn't just be looking at an athlete and the program of that week.

1:36:58They should be having a look at what they've done in the previous years. Have they done a big Ironman prep? Have they been a power lifter? What's their training prior to what they're actually going to compete in? say if they're converting over to a high rocks um because they're gonna require different amounts of recovery absolutely and with with kind of like touching on like recovery um what are like the the low-hanging pieces of fruit shall we call them that that people can take away from this conversation like if if there was like three things that for someone to improve their recovery what would they be?

1:37:40Dead easy for me this, super easy. Food, nutrition, making sure that you, you know, one, you've got at least you're eating the same amount as what you're burning. You know, and probably in certain days and weeks and times within your training program, maybe even being in a slight surplus, are you actually fueling to recover from what you're doing? You cannot recover with all the best will in the world if you are burning 5 ,000 calories and eating 3 ,000. It's literally the building blocks of what we cover you that you're just not providing. The next one's sleep. I think working with you has been a big eye-opener on that and the power of sleep.

1:38:23And it probably, I don't know if you'd agree with this, but probably the most important thing once you've got the basics in place. For me, yeah, I think sleep's my superpower in regards to uh yeah i don't think i have yes i have good genetics i'm not going to say i have shit genetics but i don't think i have genetics of a professional athlete by by any means if you look at my data and people will might say different like i've heard people say oh like jane's got so much talent you know he could be the best hyrox athlete if he just dedicates more time to high rocks and so on but like if you cut me open or go to a lab and get me tested i'm no no better than any other athlete you'd actually be like what the fuck like one i can't jump like i cannot i have i have less explosive power than any kind of like slow twitch marathon runner jake regularly gets beaten by just some of the people that do the rep class in the morning on box jumps.

1:39:26Oh, yeah. Well, yeah. We talk to our life about that, don't we? Yeah, yeah. I think I'm going to come to that point after we've round up this little section, and I'm going to explain why I disagree with you, but I get what you're saying, but you feel like you make that up through sleeping and having that dialed and being able to recover through sleep. If you look, plyometric, explosiveness, I've not got a fast twitch muscle fiber in my body, I don't think. I think I am Mr. Slow Twitch. If you look at my VO2 max, I think it's 61, 62. Nothing crazy. Nothing crazy. Yes, it's borderline. It'd be what a professional footballer is, but it's not any superior endurance athlete or anything like that.

1:40:08It's kind of borderline in good, but it's not great. Then, like tip threshold, that's probably where I am more efficient. I'm pretty efficient with my threshold scores, but again, nothing. nothing impressive like for example i got my lactate done before my marathon and my lt2 is basically what you can hold for anywhere between 60 and 75 minutes so a half marathon was 18 points i think it was 18 kilometers per hour which is a 320 pace i then went and ran a marathon at 320 pace so like i don't know whether something's off or what but like i shouldn't have been able to do that but but i did but again that score's not the best not the correct like a lot of people have beat me uh if you look at my strength scores embarrassing like i get i genuinely get weaker by the month i don't know i don't know why i think obviously since my back injury like i used to be strong i used to be able to squat 180 for like three now i don't even squat like if you put 100kg on the bar I'd struggle to move it like but I think that is just being through like prior injuries and stuff like that so if you kind of like take all them things there like I don't I think someone would be shocked that I'm where I am and how well I'm doing for someone who's got them scores which I've actually never said out loud like them scores because I'm embarrassed of them but here we are we've said it but with them scores being so low i just see that as like an advantage like they're the things that i can work on so much more imagine if all them scores were like the the best they could be how good would you be then well imagine if i was still getting the same times as i am now but these scores were like where they should be or the best that they could be then i'd have no room for improvement absolutely whereas now like i'm like i'm getting a decent scoring high rocks getting decent scoring my marathons and i'm still really really shit at all these things that i can improve like these for me are my low hanging fruit so i feel like i can get better and i can have something to work towards you know that makes total sense but going back to the point i think me sleeping like i think last night i got uh nine hours of my whoop which probably 10 hours in bed and i probably get that every night home almost unless i'm traveling and i think that is where i do most of the recovery I agree and like I said Jake's been an eye opener for me for that and it's super important but the third thing so what if we hit the we hit nutrition, just getting making sure your energy is in balance we've got sleep, the third thing would be training periodisation training periodisation if you are, if you over train I'll have a lot of athletes I can't get it green, I can't get it green I can't get it green like that's you're referring to kind of like a recovery data yeah which is taken into consideration like resting heart rate breathing rates and hiv so there's something behind it it's not bullshit um but i'm like when was the last day you had a rest do you know what i mean and it could be like months and months before or since they've had like a truly easy week or a week off or two rest days in a row you know and I know from my own data like if I simply just go away with my kids for a week and don't do any training I come back and I'm in the green every single day you know so and like you can use that data to understand so everyone's different some people can do seven days in a row and they just need two slightly lower volume days some people can't do volume at all but can handle really hard sessions and and there's everything in between so you have to understand kind of what you're at where you're at as a human what sort of training kind of requires a lot of recovery and then put that in in in the correct doses throughout not only a training week but a block and then a year and then you look at these kind of bigger picture things um and and that's what i'm seeing i'm seeing a lot of people that are under fueling a lot of people that are not priority prioritizing sleep and a lot of people that are i don't really love the term overtraining but getting the training balance wrong and that leads to a situation where they probably get injured or ill you know at the end of the day which okay well with that in mind yep i i'm shit at the third one that you've just mentioned there, the periodisation, the knowing when to rest.

1:44:54Where do you think I'm going wrong with that? I think that you go wrong because you have this desire to constantly be doing more and the thought and feeling of just sitting there and doing nothing, you don't believe that that will get you better. I think you believe that your time could be spent doing something to get better as opposed to sitting there and doing nothing. And I think that's something that you're slowly but surely learning. We often have conversations like, I think you should rest for a couple of days and you maybe don't listen and then you kind of maybe look at it and think, probably should have rested.

1:45:34I think there's been occasions where I've said, don't get off a plane and go and run fast. And then you've gone off a plane and run fast and kind of looked back on it and thought, I wish I didn't do that. But that's just part of the learning process. and unfortunately like I don't have all the answers I can just give you the best advice but I think if you weren't getting better at it it'd piss me off and I wouldn't have patience for it but I do think slowly but surely you're starting to understand you know that you can't run a marathon one week and get an insane score for someone who's basically a fucking beginner marathon runner who's miles too heavy to be a marathon runner like and then two weeks later do a high rocks like I think you are starting to understand that there's a price to be paid I always said there's always a consequence can I do this John yeah you can but there's a cost there'll be a cost there'll be a consequence to it a negative effect somewhere down the line now I don't want to be the person and I will not be the person who strips that away from you in terms of saying you are not doing that it's like I'll give you my best advice and then go and do it yeah I don't think you've ever give me like a stern no do not do that yeah i don't think you like you've never said do not do that you might say i think you shouldn't do that absolutely you've never said but that comes back back to you i don't have all the answers mate and there's some things that i thought you wouldn't be able to do that you've gone and done you know so like who am i to like i don't i don't know um if anyone actually knows this but i i never thought you'd be able to get a 220 marathon like I don't know if I've ever said that out loud to you but when you got your your Berlin marathon score which was like was it 228 or 229 like I was like bro like that's that's the limit you know what I mean so for you to then turn around about one or 219 I genuinely thought it made not a chance literally that's what I thought but I kept that to myself because I'm not here to bring your ceiling down, I'm here to help you raise your ceiling up but then after you went and attempted it, I was literally sat at home I remember it well, I was programming on a Sunday probably and you were hours behind and I was refreshing the tracker and I was like thinking, fucking hell, he might do it and then I've actually, I know he didn't do it but now I fully believe that he can do it like I fully believe that he can do it but I don't think you can do that and then two weeks later go and get the times that you want to in high rocks now that doesn't leave me in a position where i'm like jake you need to stop running marathons and the priorities high rocks it's like can we not take a step back and have a look at the year and see like where would be sensible to put a marathon block in and where would be sensible to put a high rock block in that's my reaction to it i want you to be a weird freak who gets a 219 and stays in the elite 15 i don't want you to be just an elite 15 athlete or just a you know essentially average marathon runner like I want you to do amazing things on all fronts but because I'm invested into your mission which is inspiring people to exercise and and get into fitness and I just think that the combination will inspire more people than just getting and you know being another good Irox or another average marathon runner do you know what I mean so like I think that's another example where like as a coach you have to understand the person and understand the bigger picture that's that's nice to hear to be fair have I ever said that to you though that I didn't believe it possible because I didn't you might have said it after but like you you definitely kept it to yourself whilst in training but like at the end of the day because obviously as a coach you're supposed to like set people's expectations aren't you do you know what I mean well every every single person around me well when I say every single person yourself Rhys who give me some tips on the marathon training um he's like a professional triathlete coach uh and then alphie manthorpe a coach within the running space like you were all people who said i believe in you first and foremost and then after you might say oh well yeah the likelihood of you doing that was like against you if that makes sense so like um but i'm grateful that i have people around me like that because at the end of the day like just let someone go for their goals even though it might be completely out of their scope but like at the end of the day like there's a saying i think it's like aim for the stars land on the moon or something like that like i could have i had a 228 marathon i could have simply said oh i want a 225 marathon but if i got a 225 or 226 yeah i would have got a 225 but But I aimed for a 219, fell short, but still got a 222.

1:50:31Which was a huge PB. Yeah, which I don't think I would have got if I would have just aimed for a 225. So I agree with that mindset, by the way. I'm very much like, if you want to earn 10 million a year, aim for 20, and you've probably got more likely to get into 10. Did you see that reel that I sent you? It's that guy. I can't remember the guy. but yeah yeah i did yeah but he was saying he was taking the piss out of this uh this guy that said oh like if you if you want a five million pound yacht just think of a hundred million pound yacht yeah it just happened yeah the five million pound yacht becomes free and then he's like that yeah no i do remember that i don't think it's quite as straightforward as that i understand why people can kind of like you know take the mick out of that sort of mindset but i i think you've got to be selective though with the people that you use that with because i think some people are happy to like you say you know aim for the stars and end up on the moon kind of thing whereas other people they've just not got that same mindset oh it crushes them yeah yeah crushes them if they don't hit that number they're done they're not able to reflect and be like or or the difference between a 228 and a 219 is so great that they just can't imagine it and and with them people obviously you need to take a slightly different approach and maybe add a bit of perspective and reality to to the situation like maybe step in and go i don't think 219's a a great target i think you should aim for you know something a little bit slower yeah but again that that's something that you understand more the more you work with people you know some people i will purposely give them a target that I know they can't reach because I know it'll get an extra bit out of them whereas some people if I put that in they'll completely demotivate them to not even want to do the training session or the event or whatever no that's uh that's definitely like say it's very person dependent that isn't it have you always been like that I think it's a a lack of fear of failure I think the more you fail the you're not asked are you fuck yeah like I've failed that many times in my life that like, it's just, you just understand that it's, I fail every day.

1:52:49Do you know what I mean? Something happens every day where I'm like, fucking hell. And you do for a moment in time, you think it's the end of the world. I remember DNFing at Chicago World Champs, Harrods World Champs last year. And for the first 30 minutes. Your life was over. I was sobbing in the car. I was literally crying. I think Tom's got a video of me fucking crying. I don't think you were that bad you weren't that bad I think I was sulking you were definitely sulking yeah I was sulking and obviously I think you need that because you need to be upset to give you motivation but as long as you turn it into like motivation but like even that night we went and celebrated and I think that's the important thing like after no matter what like and some people might be against this like some people might have but like if you've put absolutely if you've made sacrifices you've spent months and months and months working towards a goal even if you don't get the outcome you shouldn't then go and punish yourself that's enough punishment there's an element of success anyway yeah there's a because you put in all this work you put all this sacrifice but then for you if you don't get the result result like you want you don't want to punish yourself even more because like you've already kind of learned from your mistakes go and celebrate it so like that night we all went for a nice steak um luckily i had really good people around i had obviously yourself tommy was there emily my girlfriend and then there was all all the represent lads and we're all like let's let's go all the people that had flown across the world to see you kind of yeah smash the world champs yeah yeah yeah unfortunately i dnf'd i didn't even get to the uh rower but uh did you feel though in that moment that any of them people that were disappointed

1:54:37again I always say this and I hate saying this but I don't think it's that serious I don't know about you I don't know if it's not that serious I just feel like when we've been working together you've failed the marathon you didn't finish world champs race, there's been multiple occasions where you've essentially by definition failed I felt a lot more than I felt of one. But I've honestly never felt disappointed, ever, because the success is in the journey, not necessarily just the outcome. I'll never forget, and I know it's dead corny, but just spending time in Melbourne, we were fortunate enough in Melbourne to be taken in by this unbelievable gym undefeated, a guy called Mike Halusi, who's actually done this mad transformation from a like 145 kilo bodybuilder so i think he's sitting at 100 kg now for his race this week in brisbane wow um never being able to run literally like imagine 145 kilo bodybuilder trying to run he looked exactly like that and he's like getting faster and faster but his motto is jim's kind of tagline is like undefeated like you never lose you either win or you learn do you know what i mean and and i think as corny as that is i think that like that's just the process and if you see it like that then you should be striving to fail because if you're striving to fail you're striving to learn if you're striving to learn you're obviously taking steps to being able to win so like yeah you definitely learn a lot more and progress a lot more from losing how many times you see a repeat world champion Like, let's take Irox.

1:56:17Has there been one since, let's say, it got more serious in the last three or four years? No, not since, like, obviously Hunter dominated for a long time. But yeah, apart from that, obviously, we'll take... Has there been three or four? Yeah, we'll take Manchester. It was Manchester, Hunter won. Next year round, Hunter came fifth. Alex won. Next year round, Alex came... 7th, 8th, Tim 1. Yeah, Tim 1. And now we're on to this year. And everyone's as hungry as ever now. Do you know, Alex probably wants it more than ever. And they probably all admit that they probably, after they won, they took their foot off the gas a little bit.

1:56:57100 %? Because that's just natural. Human nature, isn't it? Yeah. But yeah, it's really interesting. But like I say, if you can, the main point is take the positive out of everything. And I think always celebrate. celebrate every opportunity that you can because you only get limited celebrations and what being an horrible miserable person is not going to add to any part of your life or anyone else's life I think you're well within your rights for you for example to sulk for half an hour and be upset as a coach you'd be a little bit worried if your athletes just DNF'd and they're not arsed because you'd question the commitment and the desire a little bit but just let it happen get over it quickly and take the positives like always and then like what what i always find is like if i do shit i need a plan there and i need to make a plan i need to be making a plan that night so like we were at dinner that night after our dinner then it was like right how are we going to get back to where i want to be and that we're making a plan and we're being productive as long as that's happening then i'm feeling like i'm still moving forward even though there's nothing you can really do there and then because like there's no more races you're injured yeah you're this you're that but as long as like you've got a plan so i'd say to people like always have a plan when shit hits a fan like and the plan obviously will change like you you expected to do better than you did you then do shit but like plan to get back to where you was or or if not better or to achieve the goal um but then like just take every opportunity that you can that you was going to do if if you was to win so like i dnf an example is i dnf that night i could have literally gone to bed just soaked all night cried all night felt sorry for yourself i could have booked an early flight home or i could have just like not had anything to do with high rocks i realized that i was there until the monday which so i was there for another three days I could literally just hid away but I chose to oh right okay well I did really shit like let's see what I can do for sponsors like can I go and stand on a stand and meet people can I I jumped on the live stream and the race that I was meant to be racing in I commentated on and shit like that and that like it makes you feel better but then also like you're being productive absolutely and it's like at the end of again don't deep it it's not that serious if you lose you're still healthy you're still alive you're still you've still got everyone still loves you still got lots to be grateful for ain't you yeah yeah and i think again it sounds quite corny a lot of people don't like talking about these things but i think it's just tools to be successful do you know what i mean like there's a point the point you made there about planning like there's there's a saying that like you know you can achieve anything and all you've got to do is prepare plan and then be patient.

1:59:55That is the route to success in anything. Most people that have got to the top in anything will have gone through that exact process. It's not rocket science. It's tough because people don't like to necessarily do those things at certain times, but it's pretty simple. What do you think your secret is to coaching? Secret to coaching? go into it with a similar kind of mindset as being an athlete in the sense that like I think the second that you know that you understand you don't know everything you don't have all the answers I think that's powerful you know being open to to learning I think putting yourself in as many different environments as possible like I think a lot of coaches will turn the nose up say like going teaching a beginner's class or going working with people that have never trained or I work with athletes man I'm not not going doing that do you know what I mean whereas you could learn something in that environment that then subsequently helps you with the elite athletes and vice versa you know I think every opportunity to coach take every opportunity don't you know pigeonhole yourself into oh I'm only working with elite 15 athletes because you might learn someone with someone who can only do a 90 minute Irox that you were never going to learn with an elite that then becomes useful for everyone you know what I I mean so I think taking as much of the opportunities to coach as possible you know gaining experience be learning constantly learning you know take what people say listen but then also like have the courage to have your own ideas as well you know and break away break from the mold I don't think I'm a typical coach I get in a lot of environments for coaches and I feel like sometimes I'm a bit of an outlier in the way I see it versus the way they see it.

2:01:47It doesn't mean I don't listen to what they say and take that on board. But I think actually trying to just be unique and doing things in your own way as well. I think that's really important. Not enough people who have got the courage to do that, they'll just go and look at what someone else has done and then just copy that. Take it, understand why it's worked, but then don't be scared to try different things and have your own stamp on stuff. I don't see that many coaches having such a great emphasis and putting so much detail into the way someone moves, I don't see it that much maybe it's happening and I'm not seeing it and it's a secret that no one wants to know but I don't see that many coaches that are obsessed with making sure your athlete's moving 100 % efficiency not accepting that they're decent like 100 % I've always thought to myself getting fitter and stronger it's fucking hard like it's really hard you have to put so many hours and so much time in moving a bit better speaking about low-hanging fruit like it's quite easy it's hard in terms of the technicality to it and practice but in terms of energy expenditure and abuse to your body and all these different things it's just not that difficult so why would you not do it you know and I'm yet to see an athlete especially in Irox that moves perfectly and I think Alex is the closest to that you know but I'm sure like a running coach will come on and pick his running apart I know he's getting better and his running's better you know more efficient every time we see him but he's not the best runner in the world I'm sure he could be more effective at running you know and that's how he's going to get faster um so that that attention to detail when it comes to the quality human movement, I think is something that more coaches should probably focus on.

2:03:38You said that you're a little bit different to other coaches. I want to move it away from coaching, but people would probably assume you're a little bit different. Just in general? Just in general. No. For example, we went to Chicago. We did a big trip to the US, actually. It was four world champs last year. We went to New York, then we went to Austin, and then we went to Chicago. And you brought with you a tuning fork. What is a tuning fork, and what the fuck are you doing with it? A tuning fork is basically a piece of metal that you hit with basically a mini hammer, and it creates a vibrational sound frequency.

2:04:24and I'm a believer that some of the kind of holistic woo-woo kind of things that have maybe been lost in the 21st century may and I'm saying may because I'm not fully bought into any of these things yet may be very impactful and effective at having a happier healthy body so I'm willing to you know have you guys take the piss out of me and different pictures and things emerge we're all getting on board with it but but like my point is we all give it a try i think i think uh this comes back to like be open to anything like i am literally open to any idea you know i regularly do breath work i meditate i jump in cold water you are you are a hippie i'm a bit of a hippie but what is a hippie a hippie is just someone who's trying to understand maybe something that was lost that might be really good for everyday life and making people happier and healthier and fitter and stronger you know if i imagine if i can you know unlock a protocol that costs you zero energy in five minutes and it makes you a better athlete i'm willing to go out there and try these things experience it and then you often be like should i do that john and i'm be like no i don't think you should you know what i mean because i'm i'm just wanting to be healthy and you're an athlete and that's two different things do you know what i mean and we have them conversations all the time and you're quite like should i try that and i'm I'm like, I don't think it'd have any benefit for you.

2:05:51We've done that quite a lot, haven't we? Well, I think that's one thing we find fascinating with you. Like you say, you're willing to try everything. Right now, you're fasting. Fasting, yeah. What am I? 48, I'm about 54 or 56 hours in. Right, okay. So 50 into a 72-hour fast. Now, obviously, you said you probably do that for a regular person. like you know every six months it's probably good for a regular person to do it would it be good for an athlete who's trying to get the most out of their performance you know like i'd like i'm sat having the internal conversations that i would imagine you would imagine if he was fasting like i'm losing muscle i'm getting weaker i'm not sleeping properly my recovery is dropping like you know it's going to take me a week to get back to normal training so like could i justify this for an athlete it'd be very hard to probably not and it'd be like it's not worth the risk is it like you said there's a cost to everything the cost of fasting it might improve autophagy it might lower inflammation but the cost of you not recovering for three days is probably not worth it it might add ten minutes to my overall health span or something who knows but is my running going to be a bit shit this week?

2:07:14probably you know I might report something different but I would imagine that I'm probably just not going to be able to hit my threshold places and I'm probably not going to be lifting the weights that I normally lift I'm probably not going to be able to you know do 320 strain days which I try and do on a hard training week like I'm probably not going to be able to do any of them things and and is that detrimental to performance for an athlete yeah absolutely so like would I do this and then go all athletes should do this definitely not you know so I think if you're trying all these things and then you're experienced enough to understand who it's for what it's for a lot of the things that I try I don't I'm like I'll read something online and it's like have this do this and do that and it'll you know you'll get this result and I've tried it and it's it's not the case for me in the stage of life that I'm in so it just gives me the ability to go don't do that because I've tried it and I don't think it works you know what I mean and And then give some rationale behind why I don't think it works.

2:08:16So you've done a lot of stuff and a lot of mad things over the last couple of years. Are there any things that you'd think are actually worth it? From a very, very, I'm going to very, very clearly say this, there is a difference between health and performance. Sometimes there's a crossover and something that really helps performance as well. there's a number of things that I think are very very powerful when it comes to just overall health you know the reason that I'm doing this fasting thing is because I was listening to a podcast where George St-Pierre who's like a OG UFC fighter also a smart guy similar age to me also like bit weird likes things like the pyramids and stuff you know as a view like me that stuff's been lost and there's maybe some easy to find information that's that we can implement into 21st century life and he said that every time he would get some sort of niggling pain so not an injury so before anyone like comments and says that I've said that you can fix injuries by fasting I'm not saying that but if you've got niggling inflammation you know a sore shoulder that's kind of not stopping you doing anything but there's a bit of a pain there every morning when you get up I'm currently suffering or was suffering from a bit of a sore knee and I heard George St.

2:09:38Pierre speak about doing a three day fast three times a year water fast 72 hours which is what I'm doing now and a niggling Achilles issue he was still training but he was there he was hampering him in his sprint training he likes doing sprints and after the fast that pain went away so I was like sceptical obviously straight away No way. So I thought I'll try it because I've got a bit of a niggly neap and it's not stopping me doing anything, but during and after every run, I can feel it. So I just thought I'd see if it works. We'll let you know. We'll let you know if it actually worked, the outcome.

2:10:1850-odd hours in, it's no longer hurting, but also I've not run since Thursday morning. So maybe it's just not hurting because I've not done anything. I was running around a little bit after the kids and that yesterday, but we'll see. I think what about breathing I think breathing's key me like I really think I mean without paying any attention to this the Scandinavian humans that used to whoop our ass at regionals every year in CrossFit were all doing it all doing it back then like whether it be a pre warm up routine before they then went and did a warm up whether it be stuff after they were all doing it and they all used to win

2:11:06I've tried to get as upskilled as possible in the science and as knowledgeable as possible behind it and protocols and there's breathing techniques again for health and there's breathing techniques for performance but I definitely think there's something in it I just need to learn more about it and start to test it a little bit more first interesting there's plenty of studies on it there's a couple of techniques that have reported 20 % increase in basically the uptake of oxygen so like the oxygen saturation in the blood so like similar effect that you get from altitude training or blood doping or EPO abuse up to 20 % improvement now to put that into perspective I think and I might be wrong here but the level of increase that would get you banned for EPO is 20 % or 21 % so it's like when I read that I'm thinking oh my god there's a breath work protocol that can almost be as powerful as a banned substance so for me as a coach whether that turns out to be you know true or not and whether it is actually that effective you've got to explore it at least do you know what I mean because if you can give your athletes a 20 % edge in essentially endurance just for breathing something that you've got to you've got to try I think the point is like I think one of the superpowers of a coach is being open-minded and understanding that you just don't know all the answers I think I've probably said that two or three times now because that's how much I think it's important what's your opinion on stretching?

2:12:50I have a very clear opinion on stretching. Stretching is effective if you're able to perform the stretches right and the alignment's good. I think stretching gets a lot of bad press and I've heard coaches say stretching's bad for you, shouldn't do it. Correct, if you do bad stretching. Just like strength works bad for a runner if they do it wrong. Do you know what I mean? So it just comes back to the good old coaching eye. If someone's doing an effective stretch in an area that they need to stretch, it's definitely effective. If they have no understanding of how the stretch should be done and what the alignment should be and where they should be feeling it and just positioning themselves in the right place, then it could be detrimental.

2:13:34And therefore, stretching is not a magic pill because you need someone who's experienced to show you how to do it properly. One thing that you've done recently is you've done a massage course. I know the reason why you did that, but why does that benefit your coaching? It gives me an even deeper view of an athlete. So obviously I say viewing people perceive that with your eyes, but it's like how people move and what does it look like? What are they reporting? What are they communicating to you? But then also how do things feel? so like when you become a massage therapist body worker you gain a greater understanding of what the tissues should feel like so it just gives you a better picture a bigger picture a more in-depth picture of kind of what's going on with your athlete you know so if they're reporting pain in a certain place you can watch them do a movement that'll tell us something you can touch the tissues that'll tell us something and then we get to the answers quicker and more accurately and more often that's my perspective on it i find it just a game changer like if we can do a personal training session you come to the gym i've got a little bit of a pain we can do five minutes of body work before a session where you just literally dig your elbow or you press on some trigger points you release a muscle and then i can then do a session pain free it's like a game changer i think I think so many people are injured in inverted commas, like quote marks, but actually they've just got some dysfunctional tissue.

2:15:24So literally there's some key areas, whether it be muscles, fascial tissue, connective tissues, usually a combination, that are not in the right state, dysfunctional, dehydrated, too tight. you know like through months and months and reps and reps and reps of poor movement like again coming back to the cost thing there's a cost if you move bad summit's taking that load and then down the line that's going to cause you pain it's like you're not injured you've just got a bit of dysfunction and i think that that's worth noting that you shouldn't just release a muscle and then go about your session as completely normal.

2:16:04Like you need to know why that specific muscle or you've got that pain and you need to know why the muscle is tightened up because muscles only tighten up when they're weak and you're putting your body into a position where it's going to cause danger. So your muscles are tightening for a reason or your fascia is getting tight for a reason. You can't just simply release that and then go about doing your day-to-day thing because that might be what your body is protecting you from. And then you might be a chance to kind of like more injury. So as long as you know why that's tight. So say, for example, me recently, I've had a really tight pit flexor.

2:16:42And that's because I'm putting more weight through my right side when I'm running. So when we go into the gym and I do a squat and my right knee's hurting, I know it's because my TFL is really tight from running. So we can release that. I can then squat, I can then work on getting stronger. In the right areas. In the right areas. But I really need to be careful that I don't overdo it with the running so it tightens up even more or kind of causes injury to other parts. There's such a negative view on pain with athletes, with everyday people. Everyone is down in the dumps about feeling pain. my perspective of pain and I try and put this across to everyone that I work with is like pain's great pain is the only way that your body knows to tell you that you're moving bad or doing something wrong do you know what I mean so it's like every muscle for example has like a key distance that it can travel in flexion and extension if you stay within that you can batter it you can move constantly you can do loads of reps as soon as you start going out of that your body will send pain because like it's gonna snap so everyone has a limit if you keep moving and moving and moving and moving you get fatigued you're no longer able to hold the positions the muscles end up stretching further your body sends a pain signal which is basically like you're gonna snap something but if you understand that pain is just your body's way of saying you're not moving great then is that not like an internal coach an internal coaching mechanism to tell you you're doing it shit and that's what i think once you understand that that's what pain is you have a different view and perspective like if i get a bit pain now i'm like i thought i was doing everything really good but i'm obviously not and then if you're not moving well and you're getting pain then you're not being as effective as you can so you're not performing as good as you can that's a direct relationship with pain and performance if you are in pain you are not performing to your full potential but it's telling you that and it's telling you that you can do something better so see pain as an opportunity to progress like the engine light in the car the engine light comes on so that you take the engine to the garage the car to the garage to get it fixed without the engine light you keep driving around for another 50 miles the engine blows up do you know what I mean so that's what's what pain is to your body it's the internal engine like saying stop have a minute you're doing something wrong address it or else I'm going to blow up you know and and you see people ignoring it and they get injured like it's simple as that what I find really interesting is that if you have a catastrophic injury where the the the total extent of the damage has been done like a ruptured achilles or a a snapped leg, it doesn't hurt.

2:19:38You know, and you can speak to anyone who's had a catastrophic injury, they don't really report much pain because what's the point in the pain? The damage has already been done. The pain is there to stop your damage in further. Don't get me wrong, the recovery process afterwards and stuff is where you feel the pain because your body's going through that process of, hang on a minute, slow down, stop walking on that broken leg. So I find that really interesting when it comes to pain. I think pain is a subject that I think we'll start to understand a little bit more about but i think it's like pretty much misunderstood but we still don't know what it is still can't measure it yeah and no one knows your body as well as you absolutely and i think the the more in tune with your body you can be the better and it does take a lot of trial and error like this it takes going past it don't it and not listening and then listening too much and then you know it's all part of the journey of of um being an athlete that comes back to that coach athlete relationship though it's like i can't tell my athlete what they're feeling i can't say shut up i've just touched your quad it feels fine it's like you have to listen because they're feeling something for a reason do you know what i mean yeah moving on to i want to i want to take it away from kind of like the coaching the fitness and stuff what goals do you have in life after the coaching like aside from coaching what other goals do you have because I find this quite interesting.

2:21:03So I do have goals, but I'll just touch on the coach. I mean, this is going to sound really sad. I'd literally envisage myself being like a 75-year-old coach and dying as a coach. So like not retiring? Yeah. You don't want to retire? But I'm aware also that like my perspectives from 10 years ago were completely different to now. So that may well change. What were your perspectives 10 years ago? I used to think I knew a lot more than I know. I used to be much more authoritative with what I said because I think when you know a little bit, it's quite dangerous because you think you know everything and then the more you know, the more you realise you don't know.

2:21:37I've already touched on that. I think my perspective on what I wanted from life has changed. I probably was wanting more materialistic things, cars and money and houses and all these sorts of things and I've just, through losing money and cars and houses, figured out that it isn't the be-all and end-all and they come and go, they can be taken off you for no reason by other people like there's many things that can happen so I think for me my goals are to travel meet as many cool people as possible learn as much as possible read more is like an immediate goal like I think reading is like something that's just so underdone and overlooked like I think there's so many things to learn and that's a good place to do it just have as many great experiences good and bad experiences actually like I've no fear of bad experiences just going having experiences of life and just being as healthy as possible for as long as possible like I want to be that weirdo who's like 75 years old and doing a crossfit competition or competing in cleaning jerk and snatch in Olympic weightlifting just going against the grain doing the opposite to what normal people do and just showing people that there's there's more to life than just kind of going to work and drinking alcohol and eating crap and trying to get a new car and just showing a different side of life I love that because you you've been there done that been there and done it you know I don't speak about it much but literally spent two years where I drank every single day you know so I understand why I understand why people do it I understand the drawer of it you know I understand all that but I also got through it thankfully and came out the other side with you know understanding that like I don't drink now like ever and I'm not saying to the people that they should should or shouldn't I'm just saying that like I've done it and I've not done it and I much prefer life when I don't do it you know I feel like it brings so much more good not doing that for example than doing it so just just experiencing life like I think one of the reasons I enjoy working with you is because you do it all the time like sometimes great decisions sometimes shite decisions but it's just in an attempt to experience stuff good and bad and I'll never knock that you know like we you know often have conversations about the cost of like going on a trip or whatever and I'm like I don't think I've ever said don't do it have I it's the yes man mentality maybe that's the weakness of me as a coach is that the film yes man yeah yeah Jim and Kerry is that a weakness of mine or do I need to stop being like that I don't know I don't know I think it's one thing that I rate about you John to be fair like you've like you say I think the best thing about you is you're not seeing stuff as like either positive or negative you see it as an experience and we'll get on with it no matter what we'll get on with it and we'll make things work and we'll learn something or we'll win every time do you know what i mean and it and that thing of we'll we'll make it work is what i love because there's no there's not been a problem where you're like i can't do it you can't do it like you're you're almost like a in that way kind of like a bit of like a a father figure in terms of like if shit goes wrong you've always got a solution because we'll make it work no matter what like if no matter what it is there's something that can be done and we can progress towards a goal and i think that's what you need in a coach or someone you look up to is when shit hits a fan you need something to go at you need to keep progressing it's like what you said earlier though isn't it it's like such a powerful mindset.

2:25:38I think like, all right, the solution that I offer might not be amazing. You know, it might be shite, but I think just as humans, just the sensation of feeling like you're doing something that's positive. Like you said, after Chicago, like just sitting down and writing a plan. Like that's all you need. You know, just keep moving forward because you can't lose. Even if you completely fail, what's the worst that could happen? Do you know what I mean? If you think about that and like take life as a roller coaster. Like the lows make the highs better. How boring would it be if you didn't have the highs and lows?

2:26:16Yeah, if you were just like... And if it were just highs all the time. World champ like time and time over again. Obviously it'd be sick to be world champ. Like not saying that, that is my aim to be world champ. But like imagine just having it with ease. Like it wouldn't be... Well, if there were only highs then it wouldn't only be highs. It'd just be a level, wouldn't it? So there'd be no, by definition, there'd be no high. It's kind of like, we alluded it to before, but it's like being on Grand Theft Auto and getting the cheat codes. It's great for the first 15 minutes. And then you're bored.

2:26:46And then you're bored as fuck. Do you know what? It's mad that you've said that because I've literally had that conversation today in my house. So this weekend we've had 10 children in our house. So we have five children in our house anyway. They're not all yours, are they, John? They're not all mine. Just got some super sperm. Not all mine. I've literally got two of my own, but I actually provide for five, which is cool. But this weekend, we've had the pleasure of having Steph's sister, so my partner's sister up for the weekend, who's also got five kids. So this morning, playing Grand Theft Auto, we had the discussion of, can you get me all the cheat codes?

2:27:21And I said, absolutely not, because it's going to make it boring. Get to work, get the missions done, do whatever you need to. Earn your money. Yeah, exactly. Can you not just upload a load of money onto my account so I can just buy stuff? no no if you do them missions you get the money and you can go and achieve it but um it's the harder option in it you know even as a parent like when they're kicking off and it's easy just to give them an ipad absolutely like sit there and do that but it's all interlinked in it coaching being an athlete being a parent it's all kind of similar philosophies in my opinion and that's where like just going experience in life like people go oh you should be locked into your training and you should be this and you should be that you might miss out on something that makes your world champion in two years because you did that you know what i mean you might find something on a life experience that comes into play two years down the line you know and that from my experience that happens a lot so if you're just sitting in your your dungeon doing your work and not going out of it ever you're probably going to miss out on something that could have made you better at something that's my view um maybe maybe people disagree with that but that's the way i see it for sure that's cool last question i have do you see yourself living in the uk forever

2:28:42i'd be really disappointed if i end up living in the uk forever um i just think there's a there's a there's a world out there that needs exploring so many so many places to be I think I think it's one of the the probably I like to think in a positive way probably something that like powers that be in governments have done to to make the world a better place a safer place and all these different things economically more viable but I think like I don't know my inner gypsy wants to just travel around I think for me the perfect scenario would been not having a set place and that's why I've enjoyed the last 18 months so much because we've had so many travels it definitely doesn't feel like we're living in the UK we definitely don't, I think I did 14 journeys abroad last year what a position to be in, like some people though genuinely hate it, they want to be in their house, they want to be eating the same food seeing the same things, I think if you like that, fair play I'm not, so like I think I see myself having a base in the UK because my family's here you know the the mother of my children's here like I don't see a time when I wouldn't have a base here whether that be a property that I own or whatever um I've got a business in the UK like there's if there's I've got a few reasons to have a base in the UK but I'd love it if I could spend a few months in this place and a few months in that place and you know have the freedom to not live anywhere and be able to live anywhere um I think that's the dream whether it comes to fruition or not who knows we'll see but um have you got any like places in mind like specific places so you you know like you guys spend a lot of time know that i love the alps like i absolutely love the alps like there's just something about the mountains um that draws me in i think i actually had this explained in a snowboarding film which no one I've ever heard of by a guy called Travis Rice.

2:30:44And he explains people that have an obsession with equally the sea and mountains. And it's actually an obsession with the water cycle. And maybe it's some sort of like, you know, caveman thing that we've never grown out of that understands that we need to understand water just to survive. But if you think about it, like water gets picked up at the sea, it evaporates and then it gets blown towards the mountains and it falls and that's like an endless cycle that we that we live in that maybe people take for granted and basically life wouldn't exist without that process so like I'm I love the sea and I love the mountains so I'd probably love to have a base somewhere mountainous and then maybe somewhere by the sea you know I could equally sit and stare at a mountain as I can sit and stare at the sea and just be fascinated by it but I think just in 21st century This is what I love about working with you as well.

2:31:41Most people think that you have to have a base in one place and spend 11 months of the year, maybe 50 weeks of the year in one place and you only get to travel once or twice a year for a couple of weeks and it's limited as to where you can go and what you can do. But I think you've proved that you've completely changed your life from just a lad from Lee to travelling all around the world. and I think you probably share my kind of itchy feet when it comes to travelling and getting out and seeing different places. Definitely. The more you travel, the more you crave it. And I think there's nothing more in life that I crave than trying new things, experiencing new things, whether it's food, whether it's going to new locations.

2:32:29Even if it's not the most glamorous stuff, I just want to try it. and I think the more you do it, the more you crave it and I think that's a cool thing to kind of live by because that's what you're going to remember. I think that's your strength as an athlete and a person like I genuinely do. I think loads of people level criticism of, oh, Jake's not taking it seriously, he's not locked in, he's not this, he's not that. I just think that's their perspective and they're clearly people that like being set in their ways and stuck in a place but I just think that would make you miserable and unproductive as a human and I just don't think that would be a great strategy.

2:33:08I think like I've touched on, going experience and stuff, you'll probably learn things about yourself that you can then apply to yourself as an athlete that will make you better, more so than following a strict, structured training program in a specific place for a specific amount of time. Yeah, I think when it's all said and done, at the end of your life or towards the end of your life, the latter half of your life like all you care about is the people that are around you you're making or you've made like a decent living where you're not struggling but like you don't need to make a stupid amount of money and then you've got to be like the coolest storyteller in the room but like these stories are going to be true unless you're really good at faking it but uh and how do you make stories you experience things absolutely with cool people so like they're things that I want to have when I'm older and I think like you say the things that we're doing right now we've got a lot of stories to tell and I think we're making quite a few so thank you John, thank you for coming on today.

2:34:13Appreciate it. I think we've covered a lot there.