Eric Hinman - #010

0:00Eric Hinman, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me, dude. Welcome back to Austin. Yeah, it's one of my favorite places in the world. It's awesome here. You're going to move here soon. Maybe, maybe. We've got a dog back at home. That is probably the only reason we're still in the UK. Talking about that, we can kick off with that, actually. You spend half your time in Denver and half your time here. Why is that? The people here are amazing. Austin has such a tight-knit wellness community, and so many of the people here are multifaceted. They're living their wellness life, they're runners, they're High Rocks athletes, they're CrossFit athletes, they're endurance cyclists, and then they've built their life and their business around that.

0:49It's also a mecca for content creators. It's a mecca for consumer brands. It's a mecca for investors. It's a mecca for creatives. So I always preach your environment dictates your reality. And I moved to Denver in 2017, because I really felt like I had reached my limit in Syracuse, New York, which is where I'm from. My life had changed drastically. It was now based around cycling and triathlon and CrossFit and wellness based activities. And, you know, the weather in Syracuse doesn't really allow for you to be outside doing those things year round. So I moved to Denver and, you know, then it was just the mountains begging me to be outside playing in them.

1:35And my friend group, you know, they were all adventurers and risk takers and entrepreneurs. So, you know, that was my first taste of like, yeah, your environment really, really shapes your floor and your ceiling in life. And then coming here to Austin, it was for that community, just knowing that the wellness community here, in my opinion, is the best in the country. The running scene here is insane. I mean, leaving my house, coming over here, there were dozens and dozens of people running on the trail out front of my house. And you wouldn't think that for Texas, but it has just drawn so many lifestyle athletes here and like elite athletes too.

2:17There's some really, really good athletes here. When did that start with Austin being the mecca of fitness, the mecca of wellness? I think really just in the last five to 10 years. I came here my very first time in 2010. I had a software company at that time. And we would bring our team here for South by Southwest, the technology portion of it. And during those trips, I was like, I want to live in Austin someday. It's such a cool city. But it wasn't the wellness city that it is today. There were cyclists here because Lance Armstrong is from here and it is a very good cycling scene here. And Lady Bird Lake is, you know, magical to have this 10 mile running trail in the middle of the city.

2:56But it definitely wasn't nearly as dense with the wellness community that it is now. I think during COVID, a lot of people moved here. A lot of people from L.A. moved here, New York, just Texas in general attracted a lot of people during COVID. And now I think it's people attracting people with social media. We all have the opportunity to tune into other people's lives. And there's so many content creators here. I think that now has attracted a lot of the people here because you have people out there running on Lady Bird Lake showcasing this amazing experience, you know, running with 50 people on a Saturday morning.

3:31And, you know, then a 20 year old in Wichita sees that and they're like, I'm going to go to Austin. That looks really cool. We don't have that here. Yeah, it is funny. like coming from back home uh in Bolton and Horwich like it's great and it's great for training like we've got amazing trails amazing gyms uh the weather isn't very good but uh that kind of adds to it because you feel like you're in a rocky film like it's it's hardcore you're running outside it's hailstoning and you're just getting after it but you don't see many other people on the streets at all and it's almost you're almost playing on the fact that people aren't doing this so i'm going to do it and i'm going to be different sure and that's what you're playing on and that's what is motivating you whereas over here it's so much it's almost the opposite where like if you wanted to stay in bed you're like oh fuck everyone's at the track down at the track getting after it and i'm gonna sleep in like no way i'm gonna and you kind of get uh brought along so i think i feel like it definitely depends what kind of person you are if you kind of thrive off doing things that other people aren't doing or if you just want to be kind of like dragged and i think you can use them both and as an athlete you have them days where you feel amazing and you can go out on your own and you also have them days where you can't really be bothered and you need to be dragged around the track and so that that's what i love about austin i also love it that everyone's so positive you know the first thing that someone would say back in the uk is oh it's cold today the weather's shit and it's like the you're starting off everything with a negative aspect where everyone will be here would be like starting off with a positive and it'll be like oh the weather's perfect or you know i can't wait for this session instead of i'm dreading this session so um it's just like a changing mindset you don't see many people complaining out here everyone's just happy to do it and happy to be here i think people moved here and they moved here for a reason and they want to be here where you know other places are people were born and raised there and for lack of a better word they got stuck there so it's a very different dynamic if you're in a place where people just kind of got stuck first people move there for a reason because they wanted to be part of the community they wanted to be in that nice weather so how obviously you're super in shape and uh how have you found like moving to austin and being with all these amazing people all the time but having the opportunity to go out to dinner every single night there are amazing food spots here uh you know amazing barbecue and barbecue is incredible but it's probably not the healthiest um did you struggle with that because there's a place called jenny's ice cream and jenny's ice cream is the best ice cream in the world yeah it's like correct And I am obsessed with it.

6:28Yeah. And every time I come here, I swear, like, we leave a little bit heavier, a little bit happier, but definitely a little bit heavier. And how do you find, like, staying on track? Do you struggle with that at all? I do, yeah. I think there's a difference between living here versus visiting here, though. When you're visiting here, you're going to indulge in everything you can because you know you're leaving soon. living here, you get into the healthy routines again. When we spent the winter here, we spent like two and a half months here, two years ago, you know, then it was like very indulgent, you know, barbecue every night and going to Gotti ice cream and getting ice cream every night because I knew that it was a short stint.

7:08I wanted to experience everything. This go around, we've gotten into a better routine of like ordering the well, or last night we had Frezza's, a healthy Mexican restaurant. So I'll indulge in that stuff when we have friends in town, which is fairly often. But I know when to say no, you know, if I've had barbecue three nights in a row, because people are visiting, I'll be like, all right, tonight, we're just going to do something healthy. I can't have ice cream tonight. And for me, and I'm sure you, we train so much that aesthetically, it doesn't matter a ton. I'm burning the calories. It's just how I feel.

7:39I don't sleep as well if I have a pint of ice cream at night, or if I have a heavy barbecue meal, you know, I don't sleep well, and then I don't have as much energy to tackle my to do list the next day or to train hard. So it's more for performance, why I stick to, you know, a healthier diet. And then, you know, we'll go back to Denver for six months. And in Denver, 95 % of my meals, we're making at home. So it's a very different life there than it is here, just because like, we're in the city here in Denver, we're 20 minutes outside the city, we don't have the same access in Denver to amazing restaurants that we have here in Austin.

8:14so you're kind of for half the year you're more locked in you've yeah have a full control and handle over everything that you're making and then here you're enjoying it a little bit more but you're you're making gains in other areas of life whether it is and you're still progressing because the food here is it can be healthy like sure there's healthy restaurants popping up at all over the place but you're you're going out with uh friends or you're networking over dinner and yep um yeah that's really cool it's a really cool way of looking at it and not putting too much pressure on it as well because my head would fall off after a month I think yeah because I used to be more strict with that stuff I I feel like you can get to a point where it adds more stress and adds more harm than it does good yeah you know because yeah for sure let's face it like you know eating out with your friends is a fun experience you know it's one of the magical things in life sharing good food with good people and I feel like if you're too strict with it then it just becomes a stressor for you and it you know doesn't allow you to go out and hang out with your friends and build relationships with people yeah for sure for me it's genuinely the favorite my favorite thing to do I don't because we don't go out we don't go out drinking we don't do any of that stuff um literally my obsessions are going out for nice food and going to the nicest places with the best people and with friends.

9:39So for me, it's really important. And I think that's one of the reasons that I love Austin because there's good people, good food. 100%. What are some of your favorite spots here? Favorite spots that we've tried? Obviously, Terry Black's, but the one out of town because there's no queue. That's a bit of a hack. There's about 30 minutes out of town. And it's incredible. I think they actually make most of the brisket there and then bring it into Austin. so it's fresher and there's no queue. Loro, I think that is our favorite restaurant, isn't it? The chicken, yeah. Yeah, the garage. Chicken garage.

10:14Oh, it's so good. So yeah, Loro is a Japanese smokehouse, is that correct? Yeah, Japanese barbecue. Yeah, Japanese barbecue. And I think the history was one. I think Franklin Barbecue, the owner of Franklin Barbecue is involved in it. And then Uchi. Maybe teamed up with someone else, Uchi. Yeah, you're right. and then they made a barbecue Japanese baby. So I think... What about tacos? Tacos. Ooh, we've not really... We've been just doing taco trucks. Yeah. And I think they're pretty cool, but I don't know. Would you recommend a place? I love the tacos here. I go to Veracruz all the time. I get the meatiest taco, which I think means they put everything in it.

10:56Like everything left over, they put in it. Oh, cool, cool. But yeah, so taking it back, to kind of a little bit about your story. And when, because obviously you had a massive change in your life, you know, you didn't always, you weren't always hugely, hugely into fitness. What was the spark? What was the thing that was like, shit, I need to, I need to work on my fitness and I need to improve my health. I was on a family vacation. I looked down at my arm and I had this flab of fat coming out of a tight t-shirt that I was wearing. That was the catalyst. I'm like, damn, I have really just, I've lost it.

11:38I was it just one day? Was it? It really was that day that I can vividly look back on. And, you know, looking at myself, I was like, I just don't look good anymore. And it was in my late twenties. And I was working out at the time, but it was very vanity based, maybe two to three days a week. I was going into the gym and doing bench press and pushups and bicep curls, just upper body stuff, nothing super functional. I wasn't focused on my diet at all. I wasn't doing any cardio and I was drinking heavily on the weekends. And I also was sitting a lot. My first career was property and casualty insurance and I was driving upwards of 50 ,000 miles a year.

12:16And I just didn't have an education around a healthy lifestyle. I thought subway was my healthiest option when I was on the road getting like a turkey sub and I would just eat as much pasta as I possibly could for dinner every single night because it was more of just a satisfaction thing. And then, you know, drinking Thursday, Friday, and Saturday night, found myself in not a great place. And I also, I, my energy levels had gone down tremendously. Like every afternoon, I just had this lull where I was tired and didn't felt lethargic, didn't have mental clarity. So I think when I was either 27 or 28, I hired a personal trainer and I committed to a six month package, uh, five days a week, 30 minute sessions and 6 30 AM.

13:01And it's every day, every day, every day, every day, five days, five days a week, you know, weekdays. And it was horrible. The workouts were basically CrossFit workouts before I knew what CrossFit was. So he had me doing a lot of functional lifts, like back squats, front squats, deadlifts. And then at that gym, there was an indoor track and he would have me run on the indoor track in between sets. So I was basically weightlifting with my heart rate elevated. So I did that for six months. And during that, you know, my body composition changed. I lost tremendous amount of body fat, started to look lean again.

13:38And I started to correlate the feeling with the exercise. And I'd never done that before. I always thought exercise was to look a certain way or to perform in sport. I never thought of it as a way to gain mental clarity and to gain energy. And that was the big unlock during that time period. Was... Sorry, sorry to interrupt. Was you following like a nutrition guide that your coach had set? Or was it literally just the 30 minutes in the morning that was making you have this drastic change? Were you following more things? Because obviously everyone knows that you can train as hard as you want, but if you've not got your diet sorted, then you're not going to improve your body composition.

14:23Yep. They happened in phases. So when I first started, I was continuing to eat the same way I was eating, but you know, having a massive pasta dinner at night and not sleeping well, and then going for a six 30 morning workout wasn't great. My stomach didn't feel good and I didn't have energy. So I would say maybe three months in, I started to tinker with my diet advice from him. And then I started seeking advice from others and then, you know, started doing, let's say eggs and oatmeal in the morning. And then, you know, a prepared meal for lunch and way less food for dinner so that I could sleep better to feel energized when I woke up in the morning, but they didn't go like, I didn't sign up for too much at the same time.

15:03I really believe in tackling one thing at a time, mastering that, and then moving on to the next. So I feel like the first thing I had to master was implementing exercise into my routine and hard exercise, not just going in and doing five by five bench press and some bicep curls, like doing cardio where I was on the ground afterwards, you know, I was going hard. So I dialed that in and then I dialed in nutrition. Then I really dialed in sleep. Then I dialed in recovery. These were all kind of different phases and, you know, one became a habit and then I worked on the next until that became a habit.

15:38So that was really the progression of it. During that same time period, I found a CrossFit gym while I was doing the personal training sessions. I went to a CrossFit class in like 2009 and was just instantly really drawn to that. You know, it was another level of intensity and the camaraderie was insane. You know, it was loud rap music playing and everybody was fist bumping after laying on the floor for five minutes after doing Fran. I really, really enjoyed that because that reminded me of competing in sport. It reminded me of like my basketball team in high school and my football team and my cross country team and just the camaraderie of everyone overcoming something hard and like winning together.

16:20I really enjoyed that about CrossFit. And CrossFit was vastly different back then than it is now. There wasn't nearly as much skill. It was more body weight stuff. And, you know, we were doing Fran and Barbara. But I learned a bunch of new movements during that time period, like the thruster. And, you know, we had started tinkering with ring muscle ups, you know, during that time period. But rope climbs weren't a thing and handstand walks weren't a thing. And many of the things that have been layered on that was not part of CrossFit back then. I love that. And for me, CrossFit is one of the still probably one of the most enjoyable kind of it's definitely the most enjoyable training.

17:00And it is because, like I say, the loud music, everyone at the end of a ward, everyone's like fist bumping. everyone's worked hard together and i think suffering together there's something about suffering together like you just create that human connection that you don't respect for each other yeah yeah and you know when someone's going 100 and if they're not going 100 that's okay but you know they don't have it yeah whatever their 100 is it doesn't have to be my 100 i really yeah i enjoy people into my workouts all the time and i like crossfit or high rocks type workouts because i can go as hard as i want and go as fast as i want and then someone else can be working just as hard as me but you know doing their weight doing their you know we're all on this different playing field yeah it's sick and like i say crossfit has evolved into something else now because you know the the top athletes need to be challenged more and more and more so and how they do that is incorporate new exercises but that makes it so alien to the beginner that they think never in a million years am I going to get to that standard so what's the point and that's a bit of a shame with CrossFit um in my opinion that it's come to that and uh that's that's one of the reasons why I feel personally that uh it's so alienated and it's not as popular now but no that's cool that's cool so obviously you you you started with the personal trainer and began, began CrossFit was what kind of transitioned you to start the endurance and, you know, the mountain biking, the Ironman, uh, what, what kind of pushed you in that direction was, were you doing CrossFit for a number of years before this?

18:41And what was that change like? So I had started doing cardio. I was playing tennis with one of my business partners as an afternoon activity. So I graduated to two workouts a day. I was doing the morning personal training session or a morning CrossFit class. And then I was going and playing tennis for 60 to 90 minutes. And I wasn't wearing a heart rate monitor or anything. Like I didn't know what zone two training was at that point. I feel like I was just going hard with everything I was doing. And then I signed up for a 15K race, the Utica Boilermaker. And I ran that and I thought I was going to be able to go much faster than I did.

19:21I think I averaged like an 830 pace and I couldn't walk for like three days after. It crushed me. And I had a running background. I ran track and I ran cross country, but you know, I'd never really run more than four or five miles in any one clip. So that was a not so pleasant reminder that looking fit and being fit could be two very different things. So I started running again. And during that time period, I also met a bunch of friends who had these really fancy bikes with four handlebars on them. And I'm like, what is that bike for? And they're like, we're doing this half Ironman that's coming to Syracuse.

19:57And I'm like, what's a half Ironman? And they told me the distances, a 1.2 mile swim, 56 mile bike and a half marathon. And I'm like, you do that in a day? That sounds crazy. And they're like, yeah, people do it in four or five hours. And I was just so intrigued that like the human body could do that. So they told me about this local triathlon club that anyone could go to on a Wednesday night, the Jamesville CNY Triathlon Club in Jamesville, New York. So I signed up for my first sprint distance triathlon as part of this triathlon club. And I was just, I was hooked from day one. I thought I was going to drown in the swim.

20:32It was so scary. I was getting like kicked and punched and I'm out there like side stroking and back stroking just to get through a 800 meter swim. And then from all of the CrossFit workouts I was doing, the bike came really fast. Like I had tremendous hamstring and quad strength from all the thrusters and front squats and back squats I was doing. And running came back fairly quickly too because I had built to it in the past in high school. I had a pretty fast 5K time. So, you know, over a six-month period, my running came back. And I really got addicted to these Wednesday night triathlons. I would go every single Wednesday and I would try to go faster than I did.

21:10What was the agenda? Was it a triathlon every single Wednesday? It was a triathlon every Wednesday in the summertime. So like not just training, it was like a full, it was a sprint distance triathlon every Wednesday. So you're talking like a 60 to 70 minute time domain. And my goal was to just go faster every single time. I didn't have like a training plan. You know, I didn't know what zone two training was or what, uh, you know, lactate threshold training was. it was just go faster. And I got to a point after like a year of doing these Wednesday night triathlons where I was coming in towards the front of the pack.

21:45So then I started signing up for local races and, you know, got to a point where I was top five in my age group at these local races. And then I was intrigued by the longer distance stuff, the half Ironman, the full Ironman. So I signed up for my first half Ironman in Cambridge, Maryland in 2011. And I had these lofty ambitions of getting one of two Kona world championship slots in my age group. And I think I would have to go like 420 to get it. So I swim never became a strong suit for me. So in the swim, I was way behind. I think it was like a 45 minute swim, which is not good. And then on the bike, I passed a lot of people.

22:27I biked my ass off, maybe like a 230 bike, 240 bike. And then I went out hot on the half marathon, like a 640 pace for the first mile. The second mile was like a 655 pace. The third mile was a 730. Fourth mile, 845. By the fifth or sixth mile, I was walking. So that was a slap in the face that, you know, like anaerobic fitness does not translate to endurance fitness. So after that race, I hired a coach and that coach taught me to slow down in order to speed up. He's the one, his name is Mike Corona. He taught me all about zone two training and that I was doing everything too fast. I thought to get faster, you just go faster all the time.

23:09And he's like, Nope, you got to build durability. You have to build an aerobic engine, learn everything you can about the math, Maffetone method, Phil math, Maffetone. He coined kind of the heart rate zone two training. Um, so he told me that I had to start doing all of my running at an eight 30 to eight 45 pace, because that's where my heart rate was around one 40 at the time. So it took six months where he threatened to fire me because I wasn't listening to him. He's like, you got to slow down. Isn't going to work. Finally, I listened to him and I slowed down. And for four years, I did probably 80 to 85 % of my training in that zone two heart rate.

23:49And I went from running an 830 pace to running a 640 pace at a 129 heart rate for 20 plus miles. And it was just from building that engine and building massive durability. And obviously by slowing down, you can increase your volume. That's the name of the game. So I was able to massively increase my volume from what I was doing before because I had slowed down. That's crazy. but I feel like that's one thing that CrossFit doesn't teach you CrossFit teaches you to go hard every day, like you have a workout and a wad every day and now it was at the time, if you do a CrossFit class you have anywhere between a 5 and 20 minute workout at the end and you go all out you go balls to the wall every single day and with endurance training you just can't physically do that you're going to burn out Yeah, I mean, I've taken some very high level CrossFit Games athletes on bike rides with me.

24:51And it's honestly surprising how well they can hang for 70 or 80 minutes. But after 80 minutes, they just drop off. They drop like flies because many of them don't train that lower heart rate. So they're doing everything at a 170, 180, 190 heart rate. And you can only maintain that for so long before you've just you've burned out of your glycogen. You've burned your matches and you're going to fade. interesting and obviously you did your your first Ironman you've done quite a few since um why did you do you feel like you've stopped with Ironman obviously you still bike um you still you you do other things you do high rocks but you feel like you'll do another Ironman I do uh our mutual friend Dan Churchill is doing an Ironman this year I've been thinking about getting back into it this year.

25:45I got to get back in the pool. I mean, I have the bike fitness right now to be able to do one. The run fitness would come back very fast. I have been running and prep for high rocks 20 to 30 miles a week. I'd have to up that a little bit, but it's really just getting back into the pool. I think I need six months of, you know, 10 ,000 yards a week to feel comfortable to do well in an Ironman. But yeah, I'll definitely do more. That chapter was probably the most rewarding chapter of my life. It raised my ceiling more than any other chapter of my life has raised my ceiling. I met so many incredible people then, and I learned so many valuable lessons.

26:23I learned that you can be world-class at something if you just put blinders on and you're laser focused on one thing. That's probably the biggest thing it taught me because I always saw people that were doing anything world-class as luck or they fell into the right spot or there's genetics involved, But Ironman really taught me that, you know, with grunt work things, whether it's building a business or high rocks or endurance sports, you know, it's really about just like dedication to the sport and purposeful progression, like understanding what allowed someone to get where they are and then following a similar plan and just sticking to it.

27:03That's what Ironman taught me. So, yeah, I'll do another one. And I got addicted to the progress. I really enjoyed every week, month, year, that progression that I was getting from it. Seeing my heart rate get a little lower, my pace get a little faster, my wattage go up on the bike, my swim pace get a little faster. I got addicted to that. Initially, it was definitely the competition aspect, but then it was competing against myself. I just wanted to see what I was capable of. I love that. And the progression that you see is so big, like you say. what was your first iron man what was first first iron man was 10 hours in one minute and then what did you get down to 9 36 at kona see that's that's huge and obviously like you say being able to compete on the world stage at world champs so cool yeah not many people get to do that so hats off to you my question to you would be obviously you said that you you learned that hard work can get you places and it's not talent it's not gift it's genuinely is hard work that can get you to become the best at something what did that come first in business because you're uh i see you as a very very successful businessman did that come first and the business and then you kind of like translated that to the ironman or was it vice versa was it did you learn that in the ironman and then apply it to business?

28:31I think I learned purposeful progress, following a plan, and the power of compounding consistency during the Ironman years. But I learned hard work at a young age. My parents were very hard workers. So just like seeing how hard they worked, that was distilled in me. You know, I built an insurance business from 21 to 27, 28 years old. So I had the hard work gene. What I didn't have was the blinder gene, the ability to put blinders on and focus on one thing and say no to all of the distractions. You know, it was more shiny object syndrome, you know, chase this for a bit, chase this for a bit. And then you're doing too much to do anything really, really well.

29:14So I was working hard when I was building my insurance business, but it wasn't as focused as the Ironman chapter. The Ironman chapter taught me like, You've got to eliminate a lot of things in life if you want to focus on one thing. And you've got to get really good at saying no. And when did the skill of investing, I say skill, but seeing the potential in a brand and then investing slash consulting on that brand. When did that kind of appeal to you? And when did you realize you had a talent for that? because the amount of brands that you've built and you've helped build is insane. Like it's, it's incredible.

29:59And obviously you've built a nice lifestyle of it. Um, how, how do you see that? I, how'd you get that? I, and when did you realize that you had the talent? Yeah. I mean, I do think it is a skill. I think it's something that you, you know, you build over time and it's more than just the knowledge of investing. It's my network, you know, all of the people I've met over the years, all of the risks I've taken to develop a tolerance for risk, because these are risky investments. Seeing what brands did well and why, seeing what brands actually built a brand and why, how a brand made people feel like they're part of something.

30:39Why is this brand so cool? Why are you wearing a Red Bull hat? Why is Red Bull so cool? Understanding that. I do think all of that as a skill that you learn over time. And so much of it for me was just the people I surround myself with. You know, over the last 15 years, I've surrounded myself with people who've built businesses, with entrepreneurs, with other investors, with people who've built really cool brands, people who've built really cool communities. And I've just taken little bits and pieces from all of that to minimize the risk of investing in brands. Some of the key things for me are, is it a product or service that I use and will use regularly?

31:19Is the revenue good revenue? Meaning is it reoccurring revenue? I really like subscription-based products that make you feel a certain way. So, you know, a caffeine product or a sleep supplement that allows you to sleep better. That's really good reoccurring revenue companies where a company that just sells something once and then they don't have anything else to sell alongside of it. It's going to get more and more expensive to acquire customers. So I'm looking at the ROAS, the return on ad spends that a company has. And then I'm looking at the long-term value of their customer. Is it a customer that's going to stay with the brand for 12 plus months?

31:58The founder is super important. Is it a founder that can lead a team of people that can grow a really good team that can... Do you try and spend a lot of time with the founder before? I do. I want to be friends So the founder, I have the Tokyo rule. Would I fly to Tokyo with them? Would I really enjoy having a conversation with them for 18 hours? So yes, the founder is super important part of the equation. And if you can find a founder who has already successfully sold a company, even better. Because that's a whole nother skill in a founder is the ability to build a company that they can then sell.

32:32Because really the only way you're going to get your money back on these investments is some kind of liquidity event. Very rare are they paying dividends. It's more, you know, are they getting acquired in the future? Are they going public or is a private equity company buying them? Interesting. So if you came across a founder that was like, I want to be in the brand for the rest of my life. I don't want to sell. I want to be, I'm so passionate about this. I want to do this for the rest of my life. Would that be potentially like a red flag for you being an investor? Because you're like, you're never going to see your money unless they sell.

33:09And if they're not going to sell, then you potentially might not see your money. Like, yeah. So real, even though that's what you kind of want in a business owner, you want them to be so passionate that they're like, I'm not giving up my baby because I want to be in this forever and I want to see it succeed. I don't want to sell it. Yeah. I mean, good for them, but they're ultimately building a lifestyle business. Yeah. So real estate is an example where you can get your money back without the liquidity event because they can refinance a property or refinance a shopping center whatever and then they pay off the investors but yeah with these i mainly invest in consumer packaged goods and with those i have not invested in any where they're paying a dividend all of them the return is coming from that liquidity event interesting and how much does so you said the founder means a lot how much does company culture mean because i assume you you go in and you meet not just the founder but you might go into the offices and you see how things are operating how much does that have an impact are you going in and if you feel like people uh working they're just seeing it as a job are you are you kind of concerned with that or are you are you okay with the company culture not being too good.

34:29I want to invest in amazing company culture where people live and breathe whatever product or service they're selling. So let's take like Michael Brandt at Ketone IQ. You know, his employees just believe in his vision. They love the product. You know, he's someone, whatever he does in the future, I'll invest in him. He's a great leader. And he's able to get people to buy into his vision. And also a part of this for me too, is I want to be involved with people I enjoy being around. So I don't want to just work with people who are grinding it out with a nine to five sitting in a cubicle, you know, just getting shit done to get shit done.

35:11I want to work with people who really enjoy what they're doing. There's, there's certainly an intrinsic component to this investing, you know, cause I do invest in the stock market and I invest in safer investments, but I enjoy investing in these passion projects because we're all passionate about seeing this grow. And then we all feel like we had a part in growing it. And it's cool to see people wearing cane or wearing 10 ,000 or, you know, wearing the products or services that you're a part of. Yeah. And obviously you do a little bit of consulting as well. If you see one of the brands that you've invested in, you've seen potentially this mistake happened before in another brand like how do you go about speaking to the people in the business to kind of guide them potentially because you know from the amount of successful investments that you've made you know when a business is going right and when it's going wrong do you ever kind of step in or try and have that conversation like i think this potentially could be done better or do you kind of stay out of it completely you invest and then stay out of it completely?

36:18When asked to help, I help, but I'm not stepping in or overstepping boundaries. Like it's their company to run. You know, if they reach out to me and they say, you know, Hey, we need a line of capital or Hey, I need legal advice on this litigation that just came in. You know, I'll lend my two cents, but more often I'm connecting them with an expert in that matter. My expertise really is in the marketing component, you know, building ambassador programs, content creation, community events. I give tons of guidance on that. Yes. I mean, many of the brands I work with, I'm helping them build their ambassador program.

36:54So I'm identifying people like you where building the community, basically. A hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, last night hosted an event for Cacio Pepe, apparel brand that I work with, you know, 50 people came, everybody got hats and everybody there is creating content for the brand, building awareness for the brand. So I love doing in-person events. And then I love connecting dots. It's a win-win. If I can connect you with a brand that I know that you would love to work with, and I know you're going to move the needle for the brand, that's a win-win. So I'm literally doing that all day long where I'm just sending video messages, connecting people.

37:26And I'm like, Hey, you guys are going to benefit from knowing each other. And I've worked with so many people in the wellness space that I know, you know, what people move the needle for what types of products, because product market fit is so crucial in this. You have a massive following, but you may not move the needle in a certain category the way you would move the needle in running shoes because everyone is looking to you for running shoe advice. I like that. I feel like you're someone that likes to see other people do well. I think that is probably really rare. People like to do well, but they don't like other people doing better than them and you're not that person you like to see people succeed uh why is that and how did you how did you build that if it wasn't natural to you i mean i grew up in new york state and i spent time in new york city and i got to see that dog eat dog mentality and i just didn't like that vibe i didn't like that feeling i really enjoy seeing people win and seeing people thrive Those are the types of people I want to be around.

38:33And I also had enough mentors along the way that helped me that when I got to a place where my cup was full, like I want to give back and I want to see people do well. The only requirement I have is passion. Like I enjoy surrounding myself around energetic, passionate people. If you have that, I don't care if basket weaving is your thing, I'll be helpful to you. But yeah, I love passionate people. So when the 21-year-old entrepreneur reaches out to me and they say that they just graduated college and they're spending the summer in Colorado and they want to come over in sauna and pick my brain, I'm like, fuck yeah, come over.

39:09Let's have a conversation. I love helping people like that because I was that guy at one point. And yeah, I just like I love raising people up because other people help me get to where I am. I love that. And obviously you have a lot of people interested in yourself because of your success. surely there are people that are potentially you may see as just trying to use you and how do you how do you like how do you find out whether someone is just acting because they want to use you and get to your connections or if someone genuinely wants to help you be your friend and along with that become because everyone has like a business focused interest like everyone deep down is doing everything for a reason.

39:55But what, what differentiates them to people? Are you, are you a good judge of character? Do you know when someone's just like, Oh, I'm using you to get to this place. Um, and in that scenario, what do you do? Do you, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's a skill like anything else. And over the years I've met tens of thousands of people by hosting sauna sessions and hosting group workouts. So I have a very good barometer for that. And I would say the key metric is thoughtfulness. When someone reaches out to me, I can tell if they're reaching out to me in a thoughtful way, or if they're just reaching out to me in a transactional way.

40:32So that's probably kind of the first barrier. And then the second barrier is I invite people to come and sauna with me or hit a hard workout with me so that we like, you know, overcome something hard together. And that's a pretty good judge of character as to whether or not this person has it and they're going to utilize the advice that I give them. I've had very few bad apples come along and I think that's because of what I put out. I share my life. I'm not famous from being on TV. I have a following on social media because of just sharing my life on a daily basis for 15 plus years. And what I share is how I live my life.

41:11It's the workouts I do. It's the community events I do, the people I'm surrounding myself with, the sauna sessions I do nightly and the things I've learned along the way. So generally the people who are reaching out to me, they're reaching out to me because of what they have followed along the way in my journey. Yeah. That's, uh, that's nice. That's really nice to hear that you you've not had too many people that have used you because there definitely are people like that in the world. Um, and it's good that you have a good judge of character. with all this going on you seem like you're probably the busiest guy on the planet like you've got all your businesses that you're consulting on you're creating big ambassadorship programs and you're building community there you're training two to three times a day and you're going out for long bike rides you're hitting intense gym sessions like I've seen you train i've seen you and you you're you literally uh you you go in balls to the wall like how do you have enough energy for everything and how do you have time for the other things in your life you know you've um got a lovely partner you've got um have you got pet have you got a dog we do you've got a dog so like how uh how do you spend time and how do you kind of balance time or is and not much balance?

42:34Yeah, I'd say two things. Energy breeds energy. So I really feel like the more I do, the more energy I have. I feel my worst when I'm sitting on a plane all day and I haven't moved and I haven't accomplished anything. And I'm just like scrolling social media. That's when I feel my worst. I feel my best when I'm having amazing conversations with people, when I'm hitting a hard workout, when I'm sitting in a sauna with five other people, deeply connected to them, having a great conversation, when I'm progressing in things, when I'm creating content, when I'm coming up with a creative idea, like that fuels more of that.

43:10So I do that day in and day out. And I time block. I think that is the biggest hack in the world is just knowing when to do what you need to do to progress in what you want to progress in. So, you know, I know I'm going to hit a workout most mornings around eight 30 in the morning. I know that I'm going to tackle all of my calls between 1030 and 130. I know I'm going to do some kind of aerobic outdoor activity from 130 until three o 'clock every day. I know from three until five, I'm going to be creating content, going on a podcast or taking calls. Five o 'clock, people come over to sauna. That's when I invite new people into the mix.

43:47If you want to have a meeting with me, come sauna at 5 p.m. That's when I take my in-person meetings. And then I have my wind down routine in the evening where I spend time with Sarah, maybe watch a little YouTube, try and learn something and then get to bed fairly early, rinse and repeat, do it again the next day. So it really is that like understanding what your day needs to look like to get everything you need to get done. And I say no to a lot of things. You know, if you invite me to play a pickup game of basketball an hour away, I'm saying no to that. If you invite me to a late night party, I'm saying no to that.

44:18I say no to a lot of different things to be able to do the few things I want to do and want to do really well. One thing I do love about you is if I always think this, like if someone does invite you to play basketball an hour away, you'll say no, but you'll say you're always free to come sauna. So if you want to catch up, you always give them an alternative. Yes. And that's cool. You've also created probably the best house, house name and house in the world. You've got a house that you've called muscle mansion you've created caps which is sick you should have wore here um but you've created this this house where it is amazing for everything fitness whether it's networking whether it's recovery whether it's making incredible meals it is literally the perfect home when did you have that thought of i want to create a home that facilitates all this and obviously you've got a replica of this in denver as well so you've got two two different sets um i feel like you've just created the perfect life and when did that idea come around that you you this vision that you wanted to create you know this have this perfect set up almost i think it happened early i'm an only child so i had to build my own community being an only child.

45:41I didn't have brothers and sisters. So growing up, I would have friends over to play basketball in my backyard. I'd have friends over to play ping pong in my parents' basement. And then in college, I threw massive parties. I had like the house for beer pong and really fun parties. And then also in high school, I had a friend who had a really cool house. He had a pond, he had four wheelers, he had a basketball court, and his house was basically just a revolving door. Like our whole friend group go to his house and hang out and his parents were very welcoming to everyone. So, you know, I saw that at an early age and I definitely took note of that.

46:21And I'm like, I want to create that someday. And when we bought our house in Denver, I had already experienced sauna culture, cold exposure, contrast therapy. When I first moved to Denver, I went to a place called Denver Sports Recovery and I would go every single night around 6.30 PM. and initially it was for the physical benefits of sauna and cold exposure but I started to realize that I was having some of the best conversations of my life in the sauna and I was meeting so many amazing people in the sauna because there's no barrier to entry like anyone can go and sit in a sauna and you get this massive endorphin boost by sitting in a sauna and doing contrast therapy going in cold water just like you would with exercise so I took notes of that and I knew that when we bought our house in Denver that I wanted it to be this wellness community oasis.

47:10So we found a house in Denver that has an amazing view, beautiful backyard, and we built a gym there. We call it Muscle Mountain. We have a sauna in our backyard. We have ice barrels in our backyard. We have a bunch of different smokers and barbecues. And every night just started hosting friends and new friends. And as you put things out into the world, more of that comes your way. So people saw me hosting all the time. I'd get DMs. Hey, can I come over and sauna? That looks really cool what you're doing. So I'd invite new people into the mix and I enjoy meeting people, but I also enjoy connecting people.

47:43I started to see all of these relationships get built in our backyard. And, you know, yesterday I was on Instagram and saw two people who posted reels in our backyard of like meeting people in our backyard and speaking so highly of the people they met in our backyard. And I think that's so freaking cool to create these containers and environments that yield relationships and yield friendships and yield people raising their ceiling and signing up for an Ironman. Because we had a conversation in the sauna about Ironman or, you know, a few nights ago, we had a guy over who's doing Moab 240. And I could tell everyone in the sauna was intrigued about doing Moab 240.

48:24Like that guy just raised everyone else's ceiling. Everyone's signing up for Moab 240. They have no clue how hard it is. But because this guy's doing it, like they're intrigued. So I love seeing that. And then, you know, we bought our house here in Austin and we built it with intention to have this wellness atrium where we could congregate 50, 100 people. And again, just allow for awesome people to interact with each other. No, it's cool. And for people that don't know, you've actually got two buildings in your house in Austin. And one of these buildings has, at the moment, I think still got your videographer living there.

48:58so just the the thought of having that setup as well where you can have your videographer live with you but still have their own space like it's incredibly thoughtful and obviously you did that with intention so they can have their private space but then if you need your videographer to create content they're on hand and yeah it's just i think it's it's really really uh thoughtful and it's very, very clever. And over the time, it probably saves you money because you're doing everything in your backyard and you're hosting there and people are forever grateful that they have somewhere to go. So yeah, design your environment to thrive and remove barriers to friction.

49:42And, you know, also for Sterling and his wife, like I knew for him, it would be an amazing opportunity because he gets to meet all of these other content creators, athletes, brand owners that are coming over to sauna. So he's going to be able to build his business. So, you know, that was really the pitch to him. I'm like, you know, come to Austin, you're going to be able to build your business just by being in this environment where people are going to be coming over. But you're right. I mean, intention is the key doing things intentionally. And, you know, I don't watch TV. I throughout the day, like I want to have this wellness space that brings people together.

50:17That's how I enjoy living my life. That's what fulfills me. So I designed my environment to be that i've got i've got a question so obviously you do these sauna sessions at five is there anyone that generally like out outlast their state like their welcome stay if that makes sense you know it goes on for too long you're wanting to get to bed obviously recovery is a huge aspect of your life you know spending time with your partner a huge aspect of your life is there anyone that how do you kick people out yes it sounds weird but like you you've got to have that skill. Um, did you say beforehand it's five till seven or whatever?

50:55Yeah. Great question. And I think there's a few things with that. So most can't do many more than three 20 minute rounds in a 200 degree sauna. And I also think most people coming over, they know my routine is two to three rounds of doing it. And they're respectful of that. But I think the sauna has a nice way of saying you're toasted time to go let's go eat but yeah I mean if people are lingering then you know I'll start to like move people out like hey you guys want to go to a food truck let's go get dinner you know just so it's not invading Sarah's space Sarah grew up with brothers so Sarah is really Sarah's my girlfriend Sarah is really good at you know just like removing her from the environment if she doesn't want to be in the mix and this house in Austin was designed intentionally for that, where on our third floor, it's basically our own wing.

51:49We have a lot of people who stay with us. In Denver, our house, the bedrooms, the guest bedrooms are on the same level as our bedroom, and that gets a little invasive. But here in Austin, we're completely separated from everything else. She can go up to the third floor. She's got the whole roof patio up there and just be in her own little oasis if she wants to get away. And I also know when my social battery is drained. Like yesterday hosting 50 people tonight, I don't have plans to host anyone. If I'm hosting a lot of people, then I'll usually make sure the next day isn't a big group coming over as well because you know, 50 people while I enjoy it, it's, it's energy draining.

52:27You know, it's, it's a big dopamine hit, like interacting with 50 really awesome people. So I'll be intentional with my schedule too, to make sure that I don't wear myself out because I want people to have a great experience when they come over. I want to give them my all. And I know if that you know, I just need a day of rest and I just want to do Norma Tech boots by myself. I'm not going to be intentional. I'm not going to have a great conversation with them. So I'll make sure that that day is off. And the other reason why I do the community sauna sessions is I used to do this with workouts, but I realized that my main priority for a workout is me getting a good workout.

53:01And I would start getting annoyed if someone was asking me a million questions and I'm trying to get a good workout in. So then I moved it to the sauna sessions where like, I want to have a good conversation with someone you can ask me all the questions you want because my primary intention is just to have a really good conversation with people where in the workout it was yeah your workout is actually suffering and then you don't get the results you want yep um that that leads us on to perfectly to the next thing that you're trying to crack at the moment which for me from the outside looking in it seems like high rocks and I think you're doing a damn good job at it.

53:37You're absolutely smashing it. Obviously, you're competing in Phoenix in a couple of weeks time. How are you feeling for that? And how have you found transitioning from more of the endurance? Obviously, you've always lifted weights, but transitioning to high rocks. My favorite thing right now to compete in is probably in between high rocks and mountain bike races. I do love mountain bike races too. But high rocks is so fun to compete in because so many of my friends are doing it. And so many of the people that follow me on social media are doing it. So, you know, when I show up, it's just like this massive weekend throwdown with all the homies and, you know, all the people that I want to meet.

54:20So I've really enjoyed that aspect of high rocks. And I have the mindset for endurance and I have that, you know, slow twitch muscle from all of the years of Ironman training. So I always gravitate towards more endurance-based things. So Hirox really suits me well. You know, I dabbled in CrossFit. I shouldn't say dabbled. I went like really deep into CrossFit for many years, but I just don't have that sixth gear like you need in CrossFit. I have fourth gear for a really long time, but I don't have that sixth gear. and I never made it to the games. My goal was to get to the games in my age group.

55:03And I got really close for several years. You know, we're only talking a couple of years ago in the 40 to 44 age group, but you know, there was always just like one workout, whether it was heavy snatch or a three minute workout where I just couldn't perform like the top guys. So, you know, when, when high rocks came about, I think I did my first one in 2021, the invitational that Hunter McIntyre invited people to compete against him at. I came in third. I came in behind. He won it, you know, by the light years. And then Dylan, no, who the heck? Dylan Scott was there. Dylan Scott had a faster time than me, but he competed in the open division.

55:42I'm drawing a blank on who came in second. It wasn't Rich Ryan. He would have crushed me. No, it wasn't Ryan Kent. One of the OGs in the sport. I can't believe that. I'm drawing a blank on his name. He owns a gym in like Washington, DC or Virginia. Um, anyways, I came in third, so it was, and I think my time was like one Oh six and I was like hooked from that day on. And I wasn't running at all leading up to that. I was just doing CrossFit. So I did that purely on CrossFit fitness. So once I started running, then I was able to improve my times. Uh, my fastest time was New York. The sleds were pretty dang, dang easy in New York, but I, uh, I got that.

56:22It was 2025. So last year. Yeah. Yep. Um, I'm hoping to get around that same time again in Phoenix and Houston. My goal would be to win my age group in Sweden this year, 45 to 49 age group. I'm the young cat in that age group this year, just turned 45. And then I'm doing doubles with Dan Churchill, but I like that you can do it many different ways. And so many of my friends have transitioned out of CrossFit more into endurance stuff. They're doing high rocks. They're doing ultra marathons, they're doing Ironmans. So it's just fun to be able to train with others for high rocks. And, you know, for a while, I invite a lot of people to work out with me on a regular basis.

57:06And I was having to tailor the CrossFit workouts to fit, you know, what others could do. Yeah, it was too high skill. So then with high rocks, like, you know, almost anybody can do the movements in high rocks. And I'm not snatching, I'm not doing handstand walks, I'm not doing these things that take a long time to get good at. So, you know, it's allowed other people to be in the mix with my workouts. Yeah. Interesting. You mentioned that you're, you're, you've qualified for Stockholm. I qualified for Stockholm already, both individual pro and doubles with Dan, but I missed the email for individual pro.

57:40So you've got to do it again. I emailed them and I was like, Hey, like if I missed this email, I went to my junk email, anything you can do. And they're like, nope i'm like all right i guess i'll sign up for another one which is fine they've got you high rocks yeah yeah all right but uh so are you planning to go over there just for the world champs or are you going to spend a little bit of time in europe great question i have dan's wedding as well in italy in august so i doubt i'll be able to spend too much time but i'll do five to seven days yeah and you know i'll probably just stay around sweden but i'd like to check out some other cities outside of stockholm i don't know where that is so open to recommendations no to be fair I've we've only spent we spent a little bit of time in Sweden but it was further north a little town called you me I think it's the most northern city or town that's quite big but I've never been Stockholm we've just like been in transferred but stayed in the airport but I've heard beautiful things so yeah I'm excited for it's cool that you get to travel so much and go to so many cool places around races and working with brands yeah I genuinely live the dream in fact someone asked me this the other week they were like uh they were like was this what you thought would have happened with your life and i explained that when i was 16 i'd have a dream of what i'd want my life to be this is better than my dream that's all would ever be like meeting people like you being able to travel the world being able to compete and along the way hopefully inspire more people into fitness.

59:13For sure. I think the cool thing where both you and I are is we're now attracting opportunities into our life. We're attracting people into our life. And, you know, I think it's because we both were so passionate about one thing and developed a skill and exuded so much passion and knowledge about it that now we get to attract these things into our life. And, you know, that's the lesson I often tell younger people is, you know, hone a skill or become really passionate about something. So you don't have to chase anymore and you can start to attract people and opportunities into your life. Yeah, I completely agree.

59:53And I don't know about you, but do you feel like you surround yourself with them people that people that have turn their passion into their career like the people that are all in I feel like you just you have something in common yes with people that are just like working a job because they hate well they hate the job and they're just doing it for financial gain and that's it like I don't really have anything in common with them and if I see someone doing like a half-assed job with their job like it really upsets me because not only do i think oh well you don't deserve what what you're you're being paid or that job role but also like they're not reaching their full potential and it makes me sad that they they're like that with their job and they've not found what they love yet in my opinion so like whoever i surround myself with even i always talk about this like my barber is obsessed with barbering and i love it i wouldn't go to anyone else because he lives and breathes it and he's all if he's not barbering he's researching how to get better or he's going to events that are all in his circle and i just think it's cool and that it can be done in any line of work um and i just think it's cool to surround yourself with people that just genuinely have a passion for something because you see their eyes light up when you start talking about it like Tommy behind the camera here if I start talking to him about cameras he's like we could talk for days and days about cameras non-stop for with you I could talk about um your fitness or investing in brands that you care about for forever and I see your eyes light open the the kind of excitement that you get when you're talking about it and I just wish more people had that um so it's a really good point you know if you can find that early on what you're you're passionate about and try and make that a career.

1:01:48They do say if you can turn your passion into your work, you'll never work a day in your life. You still do have to fucking work. There's some times where you don't want to do what you've got to do, but it does definitely make it easier. Greatness is the best marketing there is. Look at Michael Jordan. Look at anyone at the top of their sport. Michael talks about this on any podcasts he's been on or any radio shows. you know, that he became great. And when he became great, then everything came his way. And greatness is the ultimate marketing tool. Yeah, yeah. No, that's really interesting. I want to finish with some kind of quick fire questions.

1:02:32First of all, if you could say one habit that has completely changed your life for the better that you incorporate every single day, what would it be? Hitting a morning workout. Morning workout. Mm-hmm. And did you always do that? So obviously, like when you got this personal trainer, before that, was you a morning person or was you not a morning person? And that's why you implemented a morning workout. I did it whenever I could get it in. It wasn't time blocked into my day. Is there a specific reason that a morning workout is better than doing a workout midday or evening? For me, it sets the stage for the day.

1:03:08It puts me in this progress-oriented mindset, and it gives me energy and mental clarity to tackle the rest of the day. And I've already overcome something hard. I love that. And a lot of, especially busy people, whether you're busy with a family, busy with a business, for me, a lot of things can go wrong in a day. And that, if shit hits the fan and you've not worked out, you're not working out that day because you need to fix whatever's gone wrong. So if you get it out early doors, then no matter what you've trained that day and you feel like a little bit more relaxed and, and you're ready to attack the day.

1:03:44So I love that. I absolutely love that. Okay. So let's spin it around. Is there a habit that you still do that you wish you didn't do? Have you got any bad habits? Yeah. I eat late at night and I eat a lot late at night. I wish I could kick that. Okay. Okay. And do you feel like that's because you're under fueling during the day? Yes. Yeah. I like having a lot of mental clarity throughout the day. And if I eat too much, I lose that mental clarity. So I eat just enough so that I'm not hangry throughout the day. And then I have a massive meal at dinner, oftentimes too close to bedtime that can affect my sleep.

1:04:22That's the worst habit I have. Yeah, that's a interesting thing that I've just incorporated. I've always been a late eater, I just thought, Oh, like, I feel full, I feel relaxed I'm gonna go to bed and I'm gonna fall asleep and I'd never struggled falling asleep so I thought eating close to bed doesn't it's not negative for me but then I tried limiting it like from uh if say for example well just three hours before bed not eating and my sleep is so much better my sleep scores are so much better and I never really realized that and it does stop you from overeating someone told me once like if you're if you're hungry at night and you're peckish like just go to bed like because nothing ever good happens like when you're up staying up late watching netflix or whatever yes you might learn something um but you're more likely to snack and then like you say the the sleep's not going to be as good um another thing what about um are you do you go to bed early?

1:05:23I do. I go to bed around 9.30 to 10. Interesting. Interesting. I feel like that's a, that's another key thing. Obviously I think it applies different if you're in the creative space. Some people are super, super creative at night, but I feel like for athletes, I think getting to bed early is, and just getting a solid kind of eight hours. Do you get eight hours? I do. Yeah. I try to sleep from 10 until 6.30. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. But like, for me that's like a no-brainer i can't operate if i've not had eight hours so i always a simple cue that i have nine hours in bed nine hours in bed equates to eight hours sleep roughly if not a little bit more maybe a little bit less if we're struggling uh do you ever sleep in if you've had a bad night's sleep i try to but i'm not great at sleeping in i pretty much have uh an alarm clock where I'm up at 627 every single day.

1:06:19Okay, okay. It's 627. Right around there. It's pretty dialed. No, I love that. But that's good that you prioritize your recovery. And for some people, I understand having the routine and getting up at the exact same time is important every day. But if you've had a super late night and it's out of your control, say you had to pick someone up or you had a late flight and you got in late. A lot of people still get up super, super early. And for me, I think sometimes you've got to let that slip and you've got to sleep is good. And I feel like a lot of people demonize sleeping in. Like if your body, sometimes your body needs it.

1:07:02Yep. And it will help with that recovery. But really interesting. Okay. Death row meal.

1:07:13probably an acai bowl oh nice so you're from kawaii so you're in the you're in the chair early early morning yeah oh i'm in the chair in the morning i'd have that at night too steak would be a close second but i would say if i could only eat one thing for the rest of my life it would be a bomb ass acai bowl every day i love that i love that and uh what's your favorite cut of steak favorite cut of steak this isn't in the questions i'm just i just love yeah i would say if i'm out at a really nice steakhouse it's a ribeye if i'm grilling at home i typically do a new york strip oh lovely okay i'm gonna spin that around so instead of death row meal meal that you'd make for someone else and you've got to make it a steak a steak yes yeah i feel like when you when you crack a steak it's pretty easy to kind of perfectly smoked or perfectly grilled steak is there a do you use a gas barbecue or just for ease or do you try and smoke it or i have lots of different barbecues um here in austin we have a gas barbecue so that's generally what I've been using here.

1:08:27Back in Denver, we have a big green egg, which is a charcoal smoker. I have a Yoder charcoal smoker. And then I have this infrared grill that is just for steaks. It's called a schwank. And it's 1500 degrees. You put the steak on a stainless steel rack, and then you put it right up next to the fire and sear it for just like two minutes on each side. And it's like the perfect crust wow and uh is there a certain like wood that you use or charcoal that you use um i've not got to that level yet yeah i i generally get uh pecan hickory i buy pellets from amazon you know i think traeger brand is generally what i buy but uh pecan and hickory have been my go-tos lately yeah i'm trying to get into the the barbecue kind of scene i'd probably say but i feel like the weather in the uk to be fair i i did barbecue on christmas eve so it was like a minus three outside and i was still barbecuing nice but uh yeah the weather does affect when you definitely does when the sun is shining it's nice it's so much easier but i'm still trying to force it in the uk uh but yeah love barbecue i think it's uh one of the greatest ways of cooking in my opinion um what is your biggest regret i know this is quite deep but Is there anything in life that you regret?

1:09:53I would say not finding like wellness and some of my passions earlier would be my biggest regret. I'm glad I found it in my late 20s. It would have been nice to have found it earlier. And it would have been nice probably to find my tribe a little earlier. Like I really feel like when I moved to Denver, you know, that's when this was when I was 37 years old. That's when I really found my tribe and my ideal environment. But, you know, it took, you know, figuring out what I didn't like or where I didn't thrive. And honestly, like what I really enjoyed to figure out what the ideal environment was for me.

1:10:36So I don't discount where I grew up or like being in upstate New York for so many years. I did meet a lot of amazing people and I had a ton of fun times and a lot of memories and started a lot of businesses there. And I had a great upbringing, which I think my upbringing brought me back to nature because I grew up fishing and snowmobiling and, you know, spending with my time with my dad on our boat. So I think that brought me back to nature in a place where I also had access to city life and lots of interesting people. yeah that's cool maybe that's why uh that's where your passion lays because you had it as a child it's kind of like nostalgic uh to a point but uh that's very common to be fair a lot of people just wish they started things earlier what they love but like i say it it takes time and you learn lessons and it might not be as sweet now if you had done it for your entire life if you'd done sauna sessions for your entire life you might be thinking now yeah i can't bother with sauna sessions i can't bother with meeting these people because so it probably gives you that that energy and for me just being around you the amount of energy that you have the amount of enthusiasm that you have and you bring to a conversation is genuinely inspiring like i i want to be surrounded by you because of that so i and i don't know whether that potentially could be because you found it i found it a little bit later um but it's cool it's really cool there's not many people in the world like you mate so um yeah i i'm honored to be sat side by side with you likewise right another one if you could only run or lift weights for the rest of time what you're thinking lift weights lift weights my body just doesn't feel great with high volume running anymore i have this kind of love-hate relationship with running.

1:12:32When I'm doing it every other day, which is about what I'm doing it now, I really enjoy running, but my lower back gets tight in conjunction with all of the weightlifting I do. I feel like now in my mid-40s, my body feels better if I do less volume, which sounds crazy with you knowing how much volume I do, but I do feel better if I do less volume and higher intensity stuff versus longer duration things. Right now, I feel like I'm back in this long duration chapter of my life because of high rocks and coming off of the Leadville mountain bike race. And, you know, I see this as another couple of years maybe, but I probably will get back into more CrossFit type training once I exhaust this endurance chapter.

1:13:21Because, you know, right now sitting here, like I can feel my lower back is kind of tight from biking two hours yesterday and running four miles and hitting a high rock session, you know, just too much volume. But, you know, to be really good at something like you kind of have to teeter on that edge of overtraining and being fit enough to compete with the best in the world. So that's where I feel like I'm at right now with my training volume. And how do you manage that? how do you know when you're overtraining and when you're just doing the right amount yeah if i can't sleep well at night i know that's a sign that means my cortisol is really high if i'm not looking forward to workouts that's a sign um and do you listen to them though i do listen to them okay yeah yeah i could be better if you took the last day off probably last week i take more days off now than I ever have.

1:14:15I probably take, I don't know, a day off every other week, completely off where I don't do anything. And I would argue that, you know, many of my just 60 to 90 minute rides, you know, I'm doing that at a 125 heart rate. It's not a rest day, but I would consider that almost more active recovery. I feel better doing that than I do not doing anything. But yeah, I do take a rest day now every couple of weeks. And I'm not saying that's right. If you're a high level athlete, I think you need at least one rest day every single week because generally you need to be recovered enough to hit that high quality training session.

1:14:52And I don't hit enough high quality training sessions. I enjoy exercise too much. I like exercising. I like getting a two hour bike ride and to the fault of not having enough energy and gusto to go super hard in a you know a high rock simulation workout i think i think that's the problem that we both have is we probably got into the situations that we got into for the love of sport for sure whereas elite athletes are gifted generally don't have the same passion for working out yeah and that means that they can't wait for a rest day yeah but that rest day is actually to their advantage where i don't know about you but sometimes i'm dreading a rest day i do too i hate it like what what am i going to do yep to fill this gap and to stop me from being feeling lazy and feeling like that's how i feel too i i yeah i still have not found progression in doing nothing in a day and i wish i could because that is a skill in and of itself a thing that i've tried doing is trying just to substitute that time for something else but trying to be creative maybe it might just be going for a walk but like with no headphones in or anything and like the purpose of that walk is to come up with new ideas or to to come up with things that we can we can create content on or or whatever it is uh but uh i found that helpful um but also kind of like stacking your days and and making something that's one of the reasons why we started this podcast really is because I needed something that was aside from fitness and thinking about fitness.

1:16:31And I know it's still fitness related, but we can talk about whatever we want. We're sat here resting technically, and it's meeting new people. So it's still productive, but I'm technically resting. So that's a selfish reason. But no, that's cool. And like I say, it's cool that you have a genuine love for fitness and that's the reason why you're doing so well in the sports it just shows that hard work does beat talent when you're not interested and it's really cool next one if you couldn't do what you do now and say fitness is banned uh investing is banned what would you do is there is it like a secret hobby that you have that you could potentially see yourself doing would you have your own coffee shop would like if you couldn't do what you do now what would you do yeah i i think community-based events you know more of these experiential houses um would you do like retreats yeah wellness have you ever done any i do okay so you do them yeah i have a business called founders only okay we do four of those a year they're three-day wellness retreats for entrepreneurs creators investors and athletes and that is really really fun so i pride you go for them where's it located we do two of them in austin generally one in denver and we use our homes for them and uh we've done in palm springs as well and i usually combine it with like one really hard thing whether we do the world's toughest mile or we do the cactus to clouds hike which is the um steepest elevation gain hike that you can do that i know of in the continental US.

1:18:16So I'll have some kind of misogy built into the founders only events for people to do. But like everything else, the sum is greater than the parts. That's the beauty of it. It's curating the room with really interesting people who are all going to benefit from getting to know each other. And I just set up an environment and activities that allows them to deeply bond with each other fast. That's cool. Next question. If you could give one tip to someone who is trying to do what you've done, what would it be? Get really good at storytelling and either hone a skill or get really good at something so that you can start attracting opportunities into your life.

1:19:05I would say that's one. And then the other is when you're young, pick opportunities that will yield residual income or passive income. I was very fortunate that I did that with my first career being in property and casualty insurance. I built a book of business. I still own that business today. And that provides me with residual income where I do very little and just get mailbox money. So passive income opportunities, residual income opportunities. when you're young, buy a multifamily house when you can afford it, rent out three of the rooms that pay your mortgage. Then you have an asset and you have something that can yield passive income down the road.

1:19:45So I think that's really important when you're just graduated from college and figuring out what you're going to do, picking those right opportunities, because then you can eventually free up time to start honing that skill, doing that hobby, really doing something that you want to do in life. Very clever. And in regards to networking, this is just a question I'm curious with. You are one of the best networkers on the planet, especially in the fitness space. You're one of the best networkers. You seem to know everyone and you have a man for everything. Did you study the art of networking? Did you study how to engage in a conversation that makes the other person feel special?

1:20:29I read Dale Carnegie's book, How to Win Friends and Influence People. That was definitely influential. It's a great book. It teaches you about relationships. But I would say just interacting with a lot of people. I learned how to communicate with people. My first business being the property and casualty insurance agency. I was going door to door selling insurance. So I had to figure out a way to get people to respect me and like me fast. So I didn't just constantly keep hearing no. So what was the first line? Did you have like a chat up line? I mean, one of the biggest things you can leverage is your network.

1:21:08So I understood what started to work was, well, saving people money that works. And, you know, I helped out John, Billy and Debbie down the road from you. I insured them, you know, instantly there's that. That brings a trust. Correct. There's trust with them knowing that you work with people they know. So, you know, leveraging that, building up your network so that, you know, I know 20 of your friends. Like, of course, you're going to reach out to me when you come to Austin because you see that I've hung out with 20 of your friends. You know, it's almost like having good help reviews. I didn't even think of that, though.

1:21:46I didn't even think about that. So, no, that's a really cool one. That's really interesting. And then, you know, I mean, building a social media presence where I can now broadcast something that hundreds of thousands of people see. So, you know, pulling levers, you know, that's the biggest thing that you get with time. If you're intentional is you get all of these levers that you can pull, whether it's money, you know, that's in the bank, that's earning you interest, you know, your network. You just have these levers and audience. You have levers that you can pull. So interesting. and I find it so fascinating and it's things that I'm going to now learn and incorporate.

1:22:25The one thing that comes across about you is everything that you do is super genuine. You aren't bullshitting on Instagram. You're not putting fake workouts on. Everything that you're doing, you're doing. If you're absolutely fucked, you're going to show that on your Instagram. If you need an off day, you're not kind of acting hard for Instagram and that's it. and that's genuine but super inspiring and i think that's cool and that comes across in every single conversation like you're not acting up you're not saying things that you can't deliver you're just being genuine and i think that's what a lot of people respect about you which is cool my final question and i always find this quite interesting in hearing your answer to this do you think that you will retire and do you think you'll do what you do right now forever so when I was in my mid-30s my Instagram profile was retired at 34 exploring the world most days shirtless we didn't know each other then so you wouldn't know that unless you went back in the Instagram archives but I really feel like in my mid-30s I retired like I'm doing what I want to do now in life.

1:23:45And I'm very fortunate that I'm able to monetize it, but I'll always do what I'm doing now. I don't really have these like aspirations or goals other than I just want to keep replicating the days that I'm living now, you know, surrounding myself with the people I get to surround myself with competing in sports that I'm able to compete in, going on bike rides, exploring places via foot, hosting people, building businesses with people I enjoy developing relationships with. Like, I feel like I'm retired now. I'm doing what I want to do if that's what retirement means. I mean, I can't just sit around on a beach and look at the, look at the water.

1:24:27I would be bored out of my mind. I think retirement, like you've summed up retirement there for me as retiring from something that makes you money that you've got to do. yeah trading time for money yes yes exactly and i retired from that in my mid-30s so that's what you pass for retirement as which is i don't feel like i'm trading time for money anymore but in the the kind of work sense of continuing to make money monetize what you're doing right now you'll you'll never retire you never see yourself where you you're going to stop doing that and you're gonna sit on a sun lounger or in a deck chair and just watch the will go by.

1:25:05You feel like you never want to do that. You never have the urge to do that. You just want to do what you're doing now and repeat that until the day you die. Yep. And that's not to say that the current chapter I'm living now won't end and a new chapter will come up, but I'll always be doing something. I love progress. I like progressing in things. So I'll always be doing something where I find progress. I mean, I could see a future chapter that's more based around community events, you know, experiential houses, you know, building wellness clubs, wellness experiences. I could see leaning more into that and maybe less into, you know, content creation and building brands, but I'll always be progressing in something.

1:25:49That's cool. This chat was epic to say the least. Thank you, mate. I appreciate that. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you. Is there anything else that you want to touch on? If you don't have something hard on your calendar this year that scares you a little bit, I would encourage you guys to put something on your calendar that you have to, like, I don't want to say train because that conveys exercise, but you need to have purpose in your day to achieve it. I think that's so important in life, whether it's, you know, doing the Moab 240 or it is, you know, designing a new room in your house, just something where you have purpose in your life.

1:26:35I think that's so important in life is having these things that you look forward to and or you have to dedicate purposeful time each day to be able to do it. Yeah, that's, uh, I'm huge on that. and I'm huge for setting that goal a little bit scary. You might not know if you're going to achieve it or not. Like for me, it was the marathon goal. I didn't know if I was going to achieve it or not, but it scared me so much that every single day I was thinking about it and I was doing everything that I could in my power to try and achieve that goal. I didn't hit it, but that just means I've got lessons to learn and I go again.

1:27:18What were you trying to hit? I was trying to hit 219. and we got 222 and so originally like originally i was gutted but then i was like it's the best thing ever because if i hit that goal then i would have just oh i can relax now whereas now i know i've got work to do hungry i'm hungry for it i'm gonna learn so much more before it tom actually asked me he was like is there anything that you wish you'd done that you've not done in this prep and i was thinking no i've done absolutely everything because i thought i was going to hit the goal now looking back i know i didn't have enough time i know there were certain things that i could have done better um i could have got an extra workout in like before the marathon that would have helped me in the later stages of the marathon or whatever it is these fine-tuning things that you you think weren't there but like after looking back and going back to the drawing board you actually understand that there are things to improve so from failures you learn so much more than from just getting what you want first time so for me setting a goal so high that you you genuinely if you do everything in your power you still might not hit it is so important because if you fall short you're still doing better than the goal the comfortable goal that you was going to set you you still let's say for example if you if you said in a high rock what what time do you want to go for what time do you want to achieve in the solos yeah 59 60 59 60 if you say i want to get 58 minutes and you're like i like that that is crazy and it might take years to get there but you're going to get there and you go and you get a uh you know a 59 a low 59 you've still done better than your original goal yep so it's just a way of looking for something i think that that quote is like you know shoot for the stars land on the moon or something like that or something like that you're still propelling yourself forward and these big goals i feel like people are scared to kind of achieve them i'm not saying go for goals that are impossible um but also i don't like the word impossible because most things are possible if you put your mind to it um and you've shown that throughout your life time and time again and i love it mate i genuinely i think that's that's really cool thank you thank you thank you Eric.

1:29:41Cheers.