How to Go From a Good Runner to an Elite Runner | Alfie Manthorpe | Ep 52

0:00Alfie Manthorpe, welcome back.

0:02Alfie Manthorpe: Hello, fourth time. It's pretty crazy. Fourth time? Yeah. First one was on your own? And then Hugo, then Andy, and then here we are. Here we are. What's been happening? Just spending time with you, really. That's all I've done. Training camp, long run sessions. That's it. Just been running. I think the last time you came on, it was just after your marathon, right? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, so you got a 2.11 marathon. within London that was, wasn't it? Yep. And then since then, like I say, you've been recovering from that. How has that been, by the way? Eye-opening. I'm not sure if that's the norm based off how I ruined myself in the last 10K of the race, but it'd be things you don't even realise.

0:48Alfie Manthorpe: Like the first few weeks I was getting weird headaches and like motion sickness and stuff. But then even like two months down the line and I have to try to push in a session, a few days later I'm just wiped out. I feel like it was all related to just what I did to my body on that race day but then it's also hard to tell like obviously I took a break after the marathon changed my training to try and run some track races how much of it was just a change in training the weather getting hotter but generally it was a pretty rough experience compared to what I thought it was going to be I thought it would just be like a bit bit of a harder long run and how you feel after that like you're a bit zapped on a Sunday obviously we'd have doms on a Monday and Tuesday and I thought to be okay by the week after to be honest yeah i think people underestimate an all-out attempt especially the marathon distance because you end up doing like a high rock straight after it usually so people are saying oh it's if jake can do a high rock straight after a marathon it's not too bad yeah maybe i'm just an idiot but well we all know that anyway yeah but with yourself i feel like you've been very sensible with how you've approached getting back into it like you did give yourself enough time off after the marathon you were gradually incorporating easy runs and then you wasn't just going straight back to like the intense workouts i remember one of the first sessions back and it must have been like two weeks after the marathon you did 10 200 meters at your lt1 pace i think it was which is around about three minute k for you so well that's almost but i think it was even a little bit slower than that maybe it might have been like your marathon pace you did 10 200s at your marathon pace and that was your session and i remember thinking like that's crazy like how you like that's your starting point and then you're building back up from there but it's it's very sensible because i did the complete opposite and i ended up injured i went back into speed work trying to do kind of like six by a k at threshold pace or trying to just run as fast as possible one i couldn't run very fast and two ended up getting injured so I think it's pretty smart I think it was mostly for my coach to be honest like if it was all down to me I definitely would have pushed a lot harder he was kind of saying your body is essentially the most depleted it's ever been your muscles are probably the most fatigued they've ever been so if you go out and run there's going to be different impacts on different areas of the body what you're not used to because they're having to compensate and it's just something they don't really use that much is getting overworked it's just number one recipe for an injury so that was the exact reason why I did what I did like it was a very slow build but that was from his side not mine I would have probably got myself injured if it was down to me to be fair you've done pretty well because how many months on are we now three and a half I think three and a half months but you've obviously transitioned back into running on track you've done a couple of 5k's 5k pb on the track.

3:43I think he wasn't very happy with it, but it's still a PB at the end of the day. Yeah. It wasn't very good. Just be able to tell people what your time was.

3:53Alfie Manthorpe: Yeah, I ran 13.46, 13.46 or 47 in Portugal just before our training camp. But for me, that's like, I could run 20 seconds quicker on the road. So it's like disappointing. You know, I put the effort in on the track training, traveled to a European race and then ran slower than I would do on the road. So even though it was a PB, and that kind of shows where I was at fitness-wise, it's still only 5K, and the track and the road for me doesn't really matter at this point. So it was a little bit disappointing, but I also think that kind of work, getting ready for a 5K, took a lot more out of me than I thought it did.

4:28Alfie Manthorpe: Because as soon as I've kind of taken my foot off the gas on the speed side and got back into the higher volume, I've instantly felt so much better again. Like this week's my biggest mileage week, biggest long run, biggest sessions and it's the best I felt when it should probably be the opposite but like doing intense training just doesn't really work too well for me really how do you feel after like doing track work like do you feel like what is the feeling well the goal is to get more efficient so work on my mechanics work on my leg drive and I've actually noticed even in like videos but also just how my form feels I kind of went through a few stages when my back was stiff so I kind of didn't see the gains but in recent weeks when I've been getting on top of stretching again I've actually noticed like quite a big difference in my leg stride I've actually people have commented on my Instagram I've actually started to kick my ass a bit when I'm running so like my legs are getting that high which I think's a good thing it should be pretty long a stride length so I've actually those benefits from maybe wearing spikes more doing more speed work has helped my mechanics and now that's finally transitioning to how long a pace feels but for a lot of time in the middle everything just felt terrible So that's you What about the running world?

5:40What's been going on the last couple of weeks, months?

5:43Alfie Manthorpe: I mean you were there, so I guess that's the only thing you can talk about mostly is the mile world record like one of the oldest records in track and field history and probably one of the most iconic and questionable records as well the mile world record back in the day when it got broken originally Do you mind going into detail why it's questionable? EPO then was very prevalent so any record around that era has probably got a question mark next to it or asterisks it's kind of like on the women's side from the 1980s as well was it 27 years? yeah I think so 1999 I'm pretty sure and yeah I mean you never want to confirm especially when someone never got banned but with the development of super shoes as well I know it's only a mile, so it's not actually that long for Supershoes to take effect, but it's still a couple of seconds, I assume.

6:41I actually don't know because for me, Supershoes, especially track spikes,

6:46Alfie Manthorpe: haven't really changed too much. And the shorter you go, I think the difference is even less. Obviously, I've not tried Josh Kerr's spikes, what he got made for this. But I would say, I was listening to a podcast about this, and it's the same with the Bicarb, Nomeo, Super Shoes and Road Super Shoes. It doesn't really raise the top levels. It doesn't raise your ceiling. It kind of closes the gap between maybe someone like me who's not as genetically gifted. It kind of lets us catch up a bit because Super Shoes essentially just help you have better mechanics. That's what it does. But if someone's already got a really stiff Achilles and great leg levers, the effects are pretty minimal.

7:26Alfie Manthorpe: so I don't actually think in terms of actual race day it would have made too much of a difference on his time or compared to what people may think but in training he obviously was able to do more but again not saying anyone was taking any drugs back in the 1990s can't say that officially but they would also help recovery so it's different things helping really but anyway it was insane I was there, London Diamond League I've never actually been to like a track meet before that like you know a professional one obviously i've been to like local track meets and stuff like that but um that was my first kind of experience and it was crazy like that crowd erupted i'd never like heard anything like it i think there was 60 000 people in that stadium and it was so loud when he was like closing in on the last 200 meters it was insane what i would say is don't go to another one in the uk apart from that one because it'll ruin your experience yeah maybe the europeans in a few weeks time but other than that stay away from any other track meets because you need to keep it as a good experience because the rest of them aren't anything like that at all yeah no it's pretty good i think uh i found it pretty exciting like just the full day like you know like transitioning from you know you got the pole vaulters you got long jump you got uh people throwing like discus and stuff like that and then obviously you've got the running I thought it was crazy there's always something to watch it was cool it's also pretty interesting like you get 60 ,000 people in a stadium to essentially watch a bunch of different sports like I feel like athletics or track and field is the only sporting event where people go to watch something that could be completely different to what's happening five minutes later like if you go to watch an F1 race you go to watch people drive around a track or if you go to watch football you know exactly what you're getting whereas I'm just like mostly a distance running fan even though I am an athletic sign as a whole, but for me, it's the middle distance and distance races what are amazing.

9:23Alfie Manthorpe: But then for me to still go by ticket, I'll also be watching everything. And it's a completely different experience to what you kind of get in any other sport. Yeah. And the last time we was on this podcast with yourself, it was with Andy as well. He's been training pretty hard for the Commonwealth Games. By his standards, maybe. Maybe pretty hard. by the way did you hear what he said about you on untapped no i'm not oh you've not listened to it i'll let you listen to that but uh yeah he said that he does all the work in training sessions yeah but i i tell him what training to do so it kind of works out a bit maybe i don't know i love it i feel like you both go on like different people's podcasts and you just give each other shit it's kind of good yeah i feel like i need to give more actually if he's been saying stuff about me on that because i feel like i'm generally quite complimentary about him yeah I think Spencer asked who's the better runner yeah which is me now he's getting old isn't he so his legs are getting a bit a bit tighter and last time we raced actually no he did beat me last time we raced the last important race we did I beat him so we'll leave it at that ok we'll leave it there Andy hopefully you're watching but he competed Commonwealth Games for the people watching was literally this weekend it's actually still going on right or is it just finished Maybe the track finished yesterday.

10:42Yeah, track finished yesterday, but I think it's still going on for a couple of days. Pretty sick to watch. Andy raced twice, actually.

10:49Alfie Manthorpe: Did he? I didn't realise he raced. I never saw him on the broadcast. Always too far behind, maybe. Not sure. No, he did race. It was great, especially in the 10K. He got to the front, didn't he, and started to have a little laugh with some people. Yeah, and that was class. So he did 10K on Tuesday, I think it was, and then he did the 5K last night. did pretty well thought what was your opinion? No obviously seeing him train and how little he does that's not even a dig like compared to me you know seeing him be able to get that level like even for the British Champs where he came second obviously I was telling him I believed in him that he could do that but that was purely just based off what I've seen him do before like none of his training suggested that that's where he should be and it was the same again like he was even in the 10k you know he got to the front and obviously when they wound it up towards the end, kind of a few guys broke away.

11:42I'm talking, I think he came in at 28-16.

11:45Alfie Manthorpe: Yeah, which for a track time. And it was pissing it down. Did you see it? Yeah. It was horrendous. But I think for him, just like if you told him a few years ago that he was going to be still racing on the track at the Commonwealth Games when he had all the injuries he's had, I don't think he would have believed you. There's probably a lot of times when he didn't think he'd ever get back to the level he's got to this year, even in the 10K and the 5K. So it's, I think everything at that point I know he said on Instagram that it was kind of his last ever track race now but I think everything on the track was just a bonus for him at this point yeah nah it's sick though because he is the personality yeah they interviewed him after and he's just so great on camera he's class he's great to train with he sometimes causes me a little bit of trouble with what he says but most of the time he's pretty he's pretty fun to train with there was one thing though when he did the 10 ,000 meters did you see the guy I think about 2k in lost his shoe yeah and he beat on distil yeah but then again I don't know them Kenyans train differently yeah I don't know they're mad I don't think losing a shoe would make much of a difference you don't think not for like 8km not for a Kenyan no no maybe not I think like they did it all growing up didn't they like that's all they did like therefore one shoe on one shoe off soggy sock in the rain yeah well let's just say Andy should be ashamed and leave it there nah you did well Andy you did well sick so that's been going on within kind of like the running world anything else?

13:19Alfie Manthorpe: it's hard to obviously because I'm like in it in a different way to you it's hard to know what's worth talking about I'm not actually in the running world that's why I'm asking you yeah right yeah anything substantial that you'd care about I mean obviously Keeley's been going for the world record and then did a win in London but that women's 800 has been really good this year because you've got Femke Ball who's come up from the 400 hurdles who looks insane and then you've got Oji Baro who got battered by Keeley Indoors and who's now running 153 as well so like that's suddenly become a very competitive event and you've also got Georgia Hunter-Bell who comes in and out of the 800 and the 15 so that's a really exciting event right now but I think generally like track and field this year it's an off year so there's not really global championships.

14:06Alfie Manthorpe: So there's not too much attention on anything particular. Jakob Ingram-Ritson's going to be back soon. So he's basically been injured for two years on and off. And he's racing at the Europeans next week. But it's been pretty uneventful, I think. Excited to watch him. He's kind of like your hero, right? Yeah, he's the GOAT. He's the GOAT. Other than Andy, obviously. But no, growing up, it was like Mo Farah, Galen Rupp, Andy Butchart. And then the modern, since I've maybe been a teenager, through to now it's been Jakob Ingebrigtsen. He's the best for sure. I would say the one thing maybe it's worth noting that's kind of been a bit of a discussion in the running world in recent weeks is the new lactate gels.

14:46Alfie Manthorpe: But I think that was more spurred on from what happened in the Tour de France. And then people are going back and going, apparently Yomif Kajelce took one before his sub two hour in London. So now that's kind of a thing where maybe people are considering starting to do that. Just be able to explain a little bit the science behind it to be honest i just feel like it's another way to get more energy essentially like i feel like i would be giving it a complete miss service if i tried to talk about the science i believe you can use lactate as a fuel and it kind of stops you from using your glycogen stores like glycogen stores depleting as fast so you kind of use that first and then and i think some science says that you might be more efficient at also using glycogen as well from taking these gels but then also the articles that have come out have kind of not specified when it was taken if it was exactly taken it's the same of um the uae team in the tour de france no one's actually 100 % certain what's gone on but then as soon as something new comes around everyone just loves talking about it yeah they gotta sell something right yeah well apparently uae bought the whole stock so apparently there's no stock left because there's nothing to sell in this podcast i want to touch on one main subject and that is how a runner goes from being a good runner to being a great runner and when i say great i mean elite now where does it all start i think the obvious obvious one is being able to be consistent and that obviously depends on how much time you've got on your hands to to give that consistency and put effort into it because you know you probably see it in what you do and obviously me like all we've done today is essentially done a long run and we got home and it was already like half one and then we were eating lunch and then we've come here but that's our day and for people have to cram that into maybe a full-time job it's it's then where how how much effort can you put in to be consistent eating the right foods, doing the right mobility.

16:54Alfie Manthorpe: So I think that's the biggest gap is just providing you a platform to be as consistent as possible in terms of not getting injured and recovering as much. Because I know even a lot of people, a lot of my friends who are maybe still really good runners, but aren't quite there. It's, I was on a night out last night, so I'm feeling a bit shit today, so I might run a bit less. And then the week after it's like, oh, I'm still a bit tired, so I'll train a bit less. And you have to be, especially if you're not as genetically gifted, you have to be so so on it with everything all the time that if you start to drop off things kind of spiral and you just lose all the gains i don't know that sound for me that's the case anyway i have to be so on it 99 of the time and i feel like that was the biggest gap or difference between maybe how i was three or four years ago to now it's just everything i do it's i used to be like oh, I just won't run today, or I won't run as much, or I'll change my sessions around, or I'll end up running too hard, and then the next day I have to change it because I'm too tired.

17:55Alfie Manthorpe: You just need to have a very massive, consistent block, and that's the biggest difference. I've not got injured in years, not really had a break from running other than a few down weeks at the end of seasons, and the level just keeps on progressing. So it's a very boring answer, but I'd say that's the main reason. And then also you start to look at the little things you can do which again is heavily reliant on how much effort you can put into the recovery of it because like heat training for example is a high stress in the body so if you're not recovering and hydrating enough then that's also just going to ruin your gains and ruin everything else so it all relates back to how much you can put in but you know you take a step up heat training drills weight training everything outside of running i think that's probably the biggest the biggest things you see elites do that uh maybe the sub elites don't do really you touched then a little bit on genetics so you mentioned if you're not genetically gifted you've got to do all that how much do genetics actually pay play i feel like there's two different sides to the like being genetically gifted one side is maybe the traditional super long legs which essentially and also like stiff calf mechanics stiff foot mechanics essentially make it easier or you're more efficient at running so then it's not as hard for you to run so you don't have to be as aerobically fit or if you are then you can just run quicker and then the other side of it is maybe what I have which is my biggest genetic gift is how robust I am and how much training I can do and I actually think they go hand in hand because generally people with longer legs seem to have more injuries and I think that's generally because there's not as much muscle support around the bones and there's also with a longer stride there might be a bit more impact going into the joints so they generally see quite a lot more injuries whereas for me I'm taking a shorter stride so there's not as much force in each stride and then I also think that results in me not getting injured as much so there is a massive difference in terms of say if we both did the exact same training if someone who's really genetically gifted did 30 miles a week and I did 30 miles a week I'm pretty confident that person would be a much better runner but you then have to go up further and further and I feel like you know for me I do 180 to 200k a week that gap then becomes extremely small for i'd definitely say road races in carbon shoes on the track it's a bit different but not many people do race on the track and then the marathon i think it gets a bit different again because of how efficient they can be and how much energy they can save but generally i think the gap closes the more you train because they actually can't train as much if that makes sense yeah what about yourself do you feel like you're gifted i think gifted in the the robust way yeah in terms of like leg levers i've got my running mechanics are pretty pretty average as a general runner but as a pro i think i've maybe joked about this with a few people before that i'm probably one of the worst runners like i mean andy joke actually i'm probably the worst runner to run 27 38 in the 10k like i think i am the worst good runner if that makes sense and that's just because how much i have to train to catch up do you think that what about like lung size and stuff like that do you feel like you've got an advantage there like was your vo2 max always pretty high no have you kind of like built that i've got asthma as well so it's not great i don't think so um maybe over the years i have with the high volume but i don't ever feel like i was i was very good at anything um it's more just the consistency building like i've just improved gradually like most people come into the sport or like start running well late teens early 20s in terms of the elites whereas now i'm running every year since i've been 20 i've run quicker and quicker and quicker so it's it's not really the traditional step up into the pro level um but compared to the the average runner or the people you know just doing park runs and things i assume i am more genetically gifted than them.

22:03Alfie Manthorpe: I don't have any basis to pull that on really. Okay, so you've got someone who's genetically decent. They are consistent with their training. They train hard. They're doing the volume. What other things can they work on to bridge that gap? Doing more volume, I'd say. So even more volume. Yeah, I would say the general rule I always believe in is maximizing what you can healthfully do would be the best way to get faster or better, fitter, like just doing more volume. As long as you can absorb that and do it healthfully, not get injured, which is obviously a big ask, then I would always say the equation of more equals better is true.

22:52Alfie Manthorpe: There's obviously a cutoff and it's a very fine line between doing that and then getting injured if you're just chasing more and more. But I would say that's a massive thing. And then also I would say like, if you looked at, let's just say my training versus Andy's, because that's the easiest way for people who've listened to the podcast as well. I'm doing things like heat training. He's not doing that. I'm doing a lot more double threshold than him, a lot more volume. So they're like the little things. I do heat training because of obviously the fitness gains you can get from the blood plasma volume and then increasing hemoglobin and things like that.

23:25Alfie Manthorpe: He maybe would benefit from that, but I feel like me closing that gap is a big thing. And even like the supplements like Nomeo, I take Martram Peak Endurance, which is kind of a vasodilator. It's these things what don't necessarily maybe raise really elite or like really genetically gifted people's ceilings, but would bridge the gap a bit more. I'd say that they're definitely the biggest things. Other than that, like you've probably traveled to me. You actually haven't traveled with me to any races before, but like the stretch and I have to do the day before or the consistency with sleep, I'm doing a lot more than maybe a more gifted person would have to do in that regard to get my body ready to perform.

24:04Alfie Manthorpe: But I feel like as long as you're willing to put the time and effort in, because it takes a lot longer, it's pretty easy to get that gap very, very close. Do you think it would be hard for someone to become an elite runner whilst working a full-time job? Yeah. You see it very occasionally. And what is the difference? Say for example, because I see this all the time, some people, they might work a nine to five, but their life outside of work is training. Now they're training for one to two hours in the morning. They're training to another two hours at night and they're kind of like hammering the training.

24:43They're probably training or they potentially could do as many miles as you. but what is the difference from say someone who has got to go to work between nine and five and someone like yourself so the biggest difference is there's quite a lot I would say

24:59Alfie Manthorpe: first of all you've got to accept that you'll you'll have no life outside of running that's number one and you've also got to accept that you'd have to be on it 24 7 with everything you do day to day so I've had a pretty full-time job I think it was like three or four days a week so not full full-time and that was actually when I got my first GB vest so it is possible but for me the biggest thing was how do you optimize everything to the extent you can so I was like standing up at work rather than sitting down because generally if you sit down for nine to five you're going to be a lot stiffer not going to be able to run as if more efficient you probably have a high risk of injury that was a big thing being able to get nutritious lunches in like how many people just go out for a meal deal or get something from like a cafeteria nearby um like are you eating the right foods are you eating like really should be eating carbs every two hours to keep the like to optimize carbohydrate absorption are you doing that before an evening workout and then also sleep so i at the minute i'm waking up at 8 a.m and how many people can wake up at 8 am if they work a full-time job and have to double a day it's impossible and then also assuming that you're doing a session after work so you won't be warming up until at least half five six o 'clock you're going to be training until like half seven eight o 'clock are you then going to be able to sleep in time to wake up in the morning so there's a lot of different moving parts there where you might not get the right nutrition and you might not move around enough at work you not going to be ready for sessions mobility wise and you're probably not going to sleep enough so there's a lot of things and then also work stress on top of that so it's very it is possible but it's far from optimal and i'm everything about me maybe going back to the genetic thing has to be optimized to get to that level maybe other people who are more gifted might be able to do it a bit easier but it is it's very hard like you literally wouldn't be able to have a life if you're truly trying to become an elite pro runner not to mention you probably not do as well in your actual day job as well because all you're thinking about is recovering and like you say standing up instead of doing your work or what you're going to eat or you know you can't be focused on so many things and you can't go 100 % at so many things otherwise you're just going to burn out I think and don't get me wrong I think like what we do or what I do specifically is like the coolest thing ever for me like I've loved it growing up I get to do exactly what I want to do every day, maybe like a few times a year where I'm like, I have to do something that I don't want to do.

27:34Alfie Manthorpe: Everything else is what I would be doing if I didn't earn a living from it. And that, I can't even remember where I'm going to go with that point. It's kind of like I'm just gassed up my life and then I can't remember what I was going to say. It's good that you're grateful though. It is. And it is the life that you wanted because again, touching on this, there's probably a lot of people that are naturally really, really talented in the sport and they are professional runners. but they probably don't enjoy the actual running path. That's what I was going to say. As much as I love it, it is still a lot of work.

28:07Alfie Manthorpe: So the requirement of someone who's working a job to do what I do now is, I think, impossible. I'm pretty sure because it's a lot. But yeah, I love it. So if someone else did love it as much as I do, maybe it is possible, but I just think it'd be a very quick way to get burnt out and injured and ill and things because I don't know how someone would be as regimented enough to uh to do it if that makes sense so you mentioned there that you did work kind of like three or four days or whatever so it's like quitting that and going full-time as a professional runner what do you actually do with that extra time do you train more do you sleep more like what what do you actually do within that time because I feel like a lot of people just think, oh, well, if I'm not working all day, I can just train all day.

28:59Alfie Manthorpe: It's a really weird one because I'm sure you're the same. Like some days, time still just seems to disappear quite easily. But I would say, and it's annoying because also with elite level sport, you almost have to force yourself to not do anything sometimes. So sometimes it's just doing nothing. Like maybe it's watching TV, which I don't like doing. but you can't really get stressed or move around too much or else the next session is going to go quite bad. But generally in training, warm-ups and cool-downs and nutrition around training take a lot longer. We were at the gym yesterday and we went, I think we obviously did the 247 run in the morning, went to run and gym at about half 11, right?

29:46Alfie Manthorpe: What time did you get home? Four? Yeah. so that was a run a bit of core sauna and lunch and it was already four o 'clock so it's like we didn't even grab lunch it was literally brought in check yeah yeah so there's a lot of around it you know the preparation the mobility that does really add up a lot of time and then you maybe put an extra 10 minutes into making a better lunch or going to the shops to get like fresh stuff um so that's actually a lot of time not to mention like i feel like everyone says oh like you're a full-time runner like a full-time runner 10 or 20 years ago is completely different to a full-time runner now because we've got social media yeah and like every athlete's expected to be a content creator as well so like today you i i watched you literally do it i witnessed it because obviously we've been together all day you spent probably around 90 minutes creating a post for instagram and you was like editing different things just for a carousel so you could put on instagram yeah and like you don't realize but like that's still technically your work because you're getting sponsored and you're getting paid to promote things or sell stuff organically through your posts yeah and i think that also adds a lot of time to stuff like we were having lunch at that point you probably just eat a bit slower do things a bit slower because you're doing something else at the same time but other than that like it is mostly just busy doing nothing but like deliberately it's really strange I think Rep are bringing out yeah I know I need to be wearing it we should both be wearing that for this episode actually professional shit talkers not shit talkers bullshiters I don't know just do fuck all all day yeah maybe it is weird professional bums it is weird some weeks like I could just look back at the week and go what did I actually do this week over then train and sometimes I can't I can't tell you yeah nah it is pretty crazy how important are like drills and stuff like that because that's one thing that i've started doing because i've been hanging around with you and it's helped massively because i used to just rock up to a session right five minute warm-up which is just jog around straight into our session and you'd be done the session within kind of like 40 minutes whereas now a session probably takes two hours drills well the warm-up as a whole is like one of the most important things it changes the session completely well what would a typical session would be so say for example um obviously we won't use today because today was long run but the other day we'll go do 3.2 so we'll arrive at the track we'll probably do a couple of bits of mobility before going out for our run we'll go do 3.2 to 4k normally which takes 15 minutes or whatever then we'll come back then we'll do all our strides and stuff which probably takes another like 15 minutes yeah 20 25 maybe yeah 20 25 minutes then you'll change shoes then you'll get into the session do your session that'll probably take another 40 minutes normally and then change shoes again and then go for your cool down which is another 15 minutes and then you're fueling throughout all this and you're refueling and then you're off home and you're traveling to like a good place to do it as well so you know we we travel into manchester or whatever so the whole thing like it is a lot of fucking around in it yeah it is and you're gonna take all the photos we take all the way through it as well but i would say like the drills for a warm-up like in the short term they just help get your muscles in the right place in terms of keeping your heart rate higher after the jog to get closer to the race but also improving your range of motion a bit and also giving you cues maybe to to know that you're fired up for the actual race itself but in the long term i think if you're doing drills like two or three four times a week they do drastically help running form as well i think it's supply metrics and like you say range of movement like you see a lot of good runners or even like amateur runners and you can put me into this bracket as well with the kind of like running stuff like my range of movement isn't the best it's not like a runner like my stride isn't as open as say for example yours or andy's it just looks completely different when we're running and that's because you've done years and years of let's say strides um drills and everything where you're getting your body into them positions so it's like natural for you whereas them end ranges for me it's so stiff like my knee drive it's non-existent and things like that but i don't know you can't just teach them overnight it's like it's like training in the gym yeah it takes years it's also hard because you don't actually notice anything to be honest today on our run is the first time i've personally noticed and gone my form feels a bit different and i think it's because of the drills that was the first time yeah and because it's such a slow mover i actually i did the camp I did in January altitude when I was training with the Ingebrigtsens and the Norwegian group we did a lot of drills and then I came back down from altitude and running was has never been easier and I thought it was maybe just the altitude but I actually think it was a lot of the drills yeah just to explain that because I remember you explaining that to me and you was like they they do drills so much like they do a session and they'll actually session just on drills and that's it like yeah so like not to give any oh I will I'll just say it like Monday would be like easy run and then drills and core.

35:15Alfie Manthorpe: And then Monday evening would be easy run drills and strides and plyos. And then Tuesday you'd do the drills before a session, so twice. Wednesday would be the same as Monday, but hurdle walkovers rather than plyos. So still two sets of drills with core. So you're on five sets of drills already? Throughout the week? Six sets already. Six sets. Oh yeah, because double threshold on Tuesday. And then the next day would be a double threshold again. So you've got another two sets. So that's eight drills. and then Saturday would be a double session as well. So that's another 10 sets of drills a week.

35:46Alfie Manthorpe: Give or take maybe one depending on how they train. But it's maybe... That is like eye-opening. You just explaining that is so eye-opening because people think they're a waste of time and I think they're a waste of time as well sometimes. Because I feel like one of the reasons I feel like they're not a waste of time, but you look stupid when you don't know how to do them properly as well. and it's kind of hard to learn. You learnt them when you were younger and like you say, you're still progressing them but they don't come naturally. It's like a dance. That's what it's like. And like I say, with the plyometrics and stuff, it shows if the top level runners are doing drills kind of like eight to ten times a week and they're spending half an hour of time doing them, then it's obviously working.

36:34Alfie Manthorpe: You don't even notice it as well. Me explaining it then, I'm actually shocked with how often they do them. But like, it does be part of the session. You don't even think twice about it. It's like doing pre-run mobility. Say if you do a few exercises before every run, which we should be doing, I'm not sure. I don't do it. I'm terrible at it. I think you're a rip better than me, actually. But that could be, even if it's 10 minutes twice a day, that's over two hours a week on mobility and activation. So over the year, if you're doing two hours a week of something, it's going to be quite a substantial difference in your form and your mechanics and things.

37:07Alfie Manthorpe: but that's also another reason we take so long is because of the mobility and improvement stuff yeah nah it's crazy what other things do you think that we're not touched on there we're touched on sleep, recovery do you do anything for recovery that's like the way I live my life it allows me to be pretty stress free I think that's a massive thing that people never really talk about is like just not getting stressed out which is easier said than done but that's massive on recovery but post-session recovery as well so taking fuel to a session which I know a lot of people maybe aren't in the line of work we do where they might come from work and don't take a bag with them or don't take the right things can't have a protein shake in the bag all day because the milk will go off or whatever post-session recovery is so important and I think a lot of people maybe don't do that enough and that's another big needle mover in terms of how much adaptations you get from the session and then eventually over the time how much you actually improve from the sport one thing that makes me laugh is that you mentioned there about kind of like keeping yourself not stressed and not having a stressful life and we spoke about it before about you having like difficult conversations yeah don't really like to have them do you think that's potentially a link to you just not having a stressful life because i've i've had it in the past before where like i know my recovery is not great and it might be because i've had an argument the day before and then you have that argument you might be a little bit more aggravated before you go to bed you don't sleep as well and then are you thinking about things when you go to sleep and then you wake up and then you have shit sessions and that obviously over time could have a big difference potentially i also maybe think it's what we're talking about off camera about how i am maybe brain wise um yeah with the with how i am in certain social situations and things i'm just i'm just terrible at awkward conversations from that front but i also think like like i don't check my emails before a session i don't check my emails before bed like the only time i ever check like messages from or emails especially when i feel like it might be maybe confrontational or a bit stressful it's maybe lunchtime but or after a session it's never before a session yeah and that's just because you want to put maximum energy and thoughts into the session yeah and i don't want to feel shit because i feel like stress just makes you so tense and just feel terrible yeah are there any top performers within the sport that don't do any of that what you just said not that i know of maybe not to the extent i do but that's going back to what i was saying how probably the less talented people need to do a bit more um i feel like every single elite i know has to do some or at least a level of all that stuff, to be honest.

39:57What about the people that you surround yourself with? It seems like the top people within the running space, whether it is Josh Kerr, whether it is your Jakub Ingritson, they do have teams around them.

40:11Alfie Manthorpe: Yeah. I mean, having a team around you, like Josh, for example, obviously has psychologist, cook, full-time cook. a lot of people have physios who go everywhere with them as well all that helps take away a bit of responsibility from yourself it's like one of the best things about having a manager for me is to have the hard conversations or maybe ask to do something so all of that is obviously very beneficial but then also you see I guess it depends on the level because going back to Andy he's so chill about everything and he doesn't really have anyone around him helping him other than Lindsay probably so it really does depend on maybe the level of the athlete but also how much they're willing to commit and how much they've got to improve well i know i would probably benefit a lot more than maybe you know if you got grabbed around like a kenyan from east africa and was like we're going to give you the psychologist we're going to give you this nutritionist we're going to give you all this support how much is that going to actually improve them compared to compared to how much it improved me probably quite a big difference there so it does depend what about your mentality and probably belief like believing in yourself do you think that plays a big role i feel like we were actually saying this the other day like a lot of athletes you almost have to be like delusional about how good you are or like not put on a character but you have to be pretty arrogant when it comes to especially race day and performance you gotta be extremely confident in yourself because one there's there's no downside to that like you might run a bit too hard and then blow up but generally having like unlimited confidence in yourself on on the race day but also in training just gives you an extra edge mentally and also physically i think so for me even if i don't necessarily believe in myself i've been doing it that long where it's almost like a fake it till you make it thing like i just have to i acknowledge now that i have to be extremely confident in training and in racing so I I just do it whereas and it's kind of the same as just doing warm-ups or doing recovery like it's part of the routine I have to do is now it's like natural but originally it was like how can I trick my brain or to be confident I used to overthink everything I used to be extremely negative about my performance or pessimistic about my races and it was never a good thing like it's all there's always a downside to that like it might you might be you might come across a bit more humble if someone asks you a question which would be cool but you're never going to race as well if you're not as confident it's one of the biggest things what did your coach say to you before london marathon because i remember him saying something to you that i don't know it stuck with me i can't remember a big a big thing from him what he's taught me is never say anything negative about the training or the race like especially when you post on social media I might even say it's sarcastical or it's a bit of a joke but you sometimes see it where I'm like oh not a very good session or I might I can't even remember specifics I've stopped it now but he was like no you're like don't say anything negative even if it is true that's something you can maybe assess after the race or after the whatever you're doing but in the build up to it or the before it never acknowledge it because it's only going to do harm so that's been a big thing and he's i think even a few times i think it was before the half marathon i did in bath like i was struggling to breathe a few days before and had a bit of a tight chest and felt pretty bad never said anything to anyone race day it was completely fine and i feel like sometimes if you start talking about it you almost give it too much power or acknowledgement and it actually has a bigger effect.

43:58Alfie Manthorpe: So it's always better to just be 100 % confident. If you need to deal with something afterwards, if you are terribly ill and choose to race for whatever reason, by all means, say it afterwards. But before, there's never any benefit from doing that because it just makes you feel worse. I completely agree. And that was the thing that I think that stuck with me from your coaching, that just be positive throughout your entire kind of prep and it will compound over time. I want to move on to get a couple of your opinions. Obviously, I feel like some of these subjects are a little bit controversial.

44:36First one being super shoes. How often should you wear your super shoes? Should you wear them for every run? Should you wear them just for speed sessions? Should you not wear them at all?

44:50Alfie Manthorpe: I think it depends what you want out of the sport. So if you're trying to optimize everything, you have to be very regimented I think with when you choose to wear them I feel like a lot of people especially me at times I've got too reliant on super shoes where they actually influence my running mechanics and you know as I was growing up before super shoes it was almost a skill to be able to have good foot mechanics even when we were in Portugal actually we were running on the beach I was like this hurts I used to run on the beach as a kid when I was a runner and when I used to wear bad shoes felt unbelievable and now it feels like I can't run barefoot anymore and that is probably because of the reliance of super shoes like the carbon plate does a lot of the work the foam does a lot of the work for your foot and your calf so you become weaker in those areas so if you are trying to optimize running performance i would avoid them in quite a lot of sessions but definitely avoid them on easy runs one of my biggest pet peeves is seeing people rock up to the track and and like warm up is usually the puma deviates because that's what everyone seems to wear but like the warming up on the puma deviate elite so adias pro fours most of the time like warm up and cooling down in a carbon shoe, easy running in a carbon shoe.

45:53Alfie Manthorpe: I see that and I like wince a bit because I know the effects it's had on me. But also I think from like an even an amateur perspective, it's an expensive shoe to be wasting your ability on an easy run. Like you're not getting any of the benefits intended for. So as good as they are for race day, I feel like a lot of people maybe use them too much. And I think the way they're marketed, you know, make running easier and just people always want the best shoes. I think it's sometimes better to feel a bit worse and feel a bit slower in a more protected shoe what's not going to push you down the road one so you can save the durability for race staying harder sessions but also two so you can train your foot mechanics a bit better as well so that's my opinion but generally very positive i would say they've definitely helped me in my running career for sure it makes me it makes me laugh actually because i remember well i've been a couple of that wearing super shoes all the time yeah but i know George likes to do that as well and I remember he was like do you recommend any of the shoes and I said the Puma Velocity and he got a pair he was like he hates them he was like that's the worst shoe I've ever worn and I guarantee you it's the worst shoe he's ever worn because it feels like a slow shoe because he's only worn Carbons because he's only worn Carbons yeah I feel like that's like it's a real shoe call it an honest honest training yeah on his training and on his shoe and i love it next one i was just why you get that question i was going to say like you you were the biggest culprit of it and now you're doing long runs in in deviate purge so you're not today for the session you weren't even wearing carbons so think of how far you've come in the last few months yeah i actually prefer i don't yeah keep carbons for race day i think yeah it is a great one maybe a couple of sessions before just to get used to them because i feel like you need to get used to the shoe that you're you're going to race and build that efficiency.

47:42But if you can get away with doing most of your shoes without a carbon plate, I'd say. Double threshold training. I know you're a huge fan. What's your opinion on it? And do you think most runners should be doing it if they can?

47:58Alfie Manthorpe: Yeah, these first two things are basically what's saved my running career, actually. Super shoes and double threshold training. I love double threshold, but I think it allows you to get a lot of running volume in a relatively low risk way. I was going to say risk-free then, but it's definitely not risk-free doing two sessions in a day. But, you know, a lot of people chase intensity and feel like that's the way, if you wanted to put my effort into the sport, you run harder. But generally, I think it's better to be more controlled, do the double threshold, and that's how you put your effort in. It's actually almost boring, and that's the hard work, is being bored in these kind of double sessions, put a lot more time in, but just being under the line because let's take a traditional double threshold for me at the minute.

48:42Alfie Manthorpe: It's like five times 2K in the morning and 25 400s in the evening. That is at least 20K of decently fast work. But because it's not going over the edge and also, you know, it's very consistent with the recovery. It's not too long of a rep. It's not too fast. And also I'm keeping carbohydrates replenished throughout the session. I'm never really depleted or too fatigued. so it just allows you to stack a lot more and then also the next day and the day after that it just it just allows you to be a lot more consistent and stack a lot more volume in a safer way and i also feel like it's a bit more fun than just asking someone to go and do just a single big long run or a single big session and also i feel like when you do those single sessions and sometimes we've had this review where you know time constraints might mean oh can i just stack the sessions together like if you've got a double session why can't you just do it in one go because it's the same work, but it's such a different stimulus on the body and your body just gets more depleted.

49:40Alfie Manthorpe: And I feel like the double threshold gives you all the good stuff of the high volume without all the bad stuff in terms of a really massively increased injury risk, a lot more depletion in your glycogen stores, which then also increases injury risk, but also lowers your immune system and things like that. So it's a very good way to get volume in. I think one thing that I've learned from you is when you start double thresholds training, you don't just incorporate two or three days a week where you do double threshold. You actually might just start off at one and it might be a lot lower volume than it might, say for example of running, you just mentioned there you do 10K in the morning, 10K in the evening.

50:22If you're going from a single session where you're probably only doing 10K in the entire day, you might do 6K in the morning, 6K at night, but only do a Tuesday, for example. Keep your Thursday exactly the same, keep your Saturday exactly the same and not only do one double threshold a week. And then I assume you build it up from there.

50:42Alfie Manthorpe: Yeah. Or I only do one double threshold a week now because I do a specific session on a Friday, which is a longer session, but then it gives you a bit more rest. So I do Tuesday, Friday, Sunday. So after the double threshold, before my harder session on Friday, I have more recovery because what a lot of people do is maybe condense that. You might do a double threshold Tuesday and then a harder session Thursday. and that's kind of a bit too short of a window, especially if people aren't used to double threshold. I would generally say as a rule of thumb, if you're getting to like 14K of session volume, it'd be good to look at double threshold.

51:16Alfie Manthorpe: The only difference is maybe it's a bit lower for high rocks because you're also incorporating stations into one of those or if not both of those sessions. So if you're doing five times 2K in the morning and then might have some burpees in there and then also in the evening you've got some ski and some run and some row and some burpees and some lunges. You might not be running like what I do, which is 20 to 24K volume in a double threshold day. You might only be doing 14 or 12 even, but it's still the cumulative work of those intensities. So there's different variations you can look at it. Even doing like a bike session in the evening for people who maybe aren't as robust or more susceptible, more injury prone.

51:54Alfie Manthorpe: You can get on the elliptical, bike, swim. There's a lot of different ways to add in more cardio. Yeah, no, it makes sense. What's your opinion on rest days? I don't have a rest day.

52:08Alfie Manthorpe: I value recovery days a lot more in terms of active recovery. So my biggest thing is like a Wednesday and Thursday where I do maybe one longer run gym and an easy run and then the next day do two easy runs. And for me, that's the two easiest days of the week. I generally feel worse after a rest day because I'm so used to running a lot. for you I like maybe having one day off running to give the body a full rest from impact because you've obviously got more muscle mass heavier runner a lot more demanding exercises with high rocks so a day of just cross training which takes the most of the impact off the body I really like that but you're still moving you're not having a complete rest day I think generally complete rest days are actually sometimes harder to come back from than doing an active recovery day because you're a bit stiffer um I just feel worse like even post season if I have a few days off that is the time I'm going to get injured is after a few days off running and then get back into it I just really don't like them I used to have rest days the day before a race and I always felt sluggish and that's why I started doing shakeouts the day before and stuff and then it kind of moved on from there when I didn't have a rest day at all and now it's been not at a rest day since the marathon or after the marathon.

53:24High mileage versus low mileage?

53:28Alfie Manthorpe: 99 % of the time, high mileage. When would you do low mileage? If I was an 800 meter runner, maybe, but I would, I would always recommend higher volume. And if you're injury prone, it would obviously be less mileage, but the volume would be the the same supplemented through different forms of cardio, like elliptical or aqua jogging and things like that. There's never a scenario where I think I'd suggest someone to do more intense training and do less, unless they were training for the shorter distances, like the 800 or the 15, or sometimes the 5K. But even then, I think for a 5K and even a 1500, you still need to get a massive base blocking and then you get more specific towards race day.

54:15Alfie Manthorpe: But I would always say it's high mileage all the way. strength training for runners strength training for me is an injury prevention thing but also an efficiency thing and also being able to sustain the pace for longer i think is is a massive game changer in in terms of like what that looks like i feel like it's a balance between especially as a runner having doms all the time and training like shit because you feel like shit and then being fresh enough to still hit the splits and that's the challenge i always have where I might go a bit too hard in the gym and then feel really bad the next day and the day after that and the day after that and then my training takes a hit so I think I'm probably in quite a good balance now where um once or twice a week I would do well hopefully twice a week I'd do a gym session where one gym session is a bit heavier that would usually be on the Wednesday but then I have two days before my next hard session um that would generally be heavier split squats, heavy hip thrusters, heavier squats, ISO holds for the hamstrings and the calves.

55:22Alfie Manthorpe: I'm trying to think what else we did on Wednesday. Yeah, a little bit of core as well. A little bit of core. Only arm exercise I'm doing at the minute is landmine presses. And then I'd try to have maybe one day where I do a bit of plyometrics like counter movement jumps. Still do the ISOs, but everything else is a lot lighter or more powerful. So I might do step-ups where I'm going for like a fast step-up rather than a heavier step-up. So it's a bit more about switching on, like firing up the muscles and working on power rather than just max strength. I think that's quite a good way to balance it.

55:57Alfie Manthorpe: And then also core outside of that, I try to get in twice a week as well. That's generally side planks, dead bugs and normal planks. It's pretty simple, but it is, I feel like it depends what point you're at in running. And I think Jake Smith said this on your podcast actually sometimes or most of the time if you ask to ask him either do a gym session or go for another easy run if he's not already done a gym session that week you pick the gym session and i'm also there like i think it's very valuable and you need to have it in your plan and if you do if you can't do both if you have to sacrifice an easy run or an easy form of cardio for a gym session or like split them in two maybe half i would definitely add that gym session in and that's coming from a runner that doesn't really do gym or doesn't really like gym because there's the other side where people who are trying to get really fast at running are probably just gyming a bit too much like for example for myself doing an upper body focused workout in the gym isn't going to help my running whatsoever it's probably just holding me back if anything and I think they're the things that you've either got to balance or you've got to sacrifice if you want to actually become the best runner that you can be yeah it's also identifying where your weaknesses are like I do more glute stuff because I know my hips and glutes are generally pretty weak I've added in or Chris told me to add in landmine presses because there's a weakness there so it's identifying where you need to work on and adding that in in the gym you know injuries common things you feel when you race like we both said today and after the long run our hamstrings were pretty not sore but like we could feel them so that's maybe something you'd look at if that was consistently happening and then building from there and going back to what i was saying about doing as much volume as possible healthfully you also then assess the risk like we don't really do deadlifts or we don't certain exercises we don't really do because of the risk versus reward for running or high rocks in your case as well is zone 1 and 2 overrated?

58:04Alfie Manthorpe: I think zone 2 is a little bit overrated zone 1 maybe underrated a tiny bit I love zone in terms of recovery pace or easy run pace I much prefer that and then being able to do more variety of sessions in different zones I don't even talk about zones that often in my training or at all for me but I feel like zone 2 especially when most people who see zone 2 and then run a bit too quick anyway that just leaves you a bit more fried and zapped so you're not as fresh for the session so I personally don't do any zone two and don't really like zone two do you run off heart rate I usually run off effort mostly I usually use heart rate as like an indicator of if I need to cut things short so if my heart rate is usually really low and I feel pretty bad that's a sign that I'm overly fatigued I never really care if my heart rate's high and I feel good because that usually just means you're fresh and um effort's the main thing for me still Is it important to have a long run within your week?

59:08Alfie Manthorpe: I think long runs are probably one of the most beneficial things. I feel like, one, it's a different stimulus for your body, just generally. But also, I mean, you can go, there's so many different angles of this. Like Marius Bakken's recent book where he was talking about double threshold. He was talking about how a longer run can help with muscle tone a bit more than a shorter run, like a sustained, easy long run. And also with longer sessions, you are depleting the body a bit more, and that trains muscle fibers a bit differently, but also, can't remember the exact time frame, but there's also certain mitochondrial pathways, which only occur after prolonged exercise, and also capillarization and things like that.

59:51Alfie Manthorpe: So in terms of getting certain aerobic gains in or adaptations, you kind of need a longer stimulus to get those. So I think it is a very good thing to have in once a week. I mean, I like to do technically one and a half a week. I don't really know what to call it. Like if I do a medium long run in the middle of the week and then a long run session at the end of the week, there's kind of two different long run stimuluses. Yeah, interesting. What's your opinion on like fast courses, net downhill courses, hilly courses? Like you see so many people and, you know, courses have become popular just because they're the flattest course and they're the fastest course.

1:00:30what's your opinion on all that

1:00:31Alfie Manthorpe: if you want to run for vibes or fun like do whatever race you want like I don't I don't think it matters if someone wants to go and do like a trail race then obviously not going to go for a time if you are going for a time I don't really see the point in doing a course that's not tuned for a good time so a flat fast straight course and then on that if you are going for a good time and then pick to do a downhill race I think you're just kind of bullshitting yourself and everyone else especially if you don't acknowledge it in like in like a lot of people do it for social media like if they post it and then it turns out that race was a massive net downhill like you're lying to yourself because you're not in that fitness and you're also lying to everyone else so if you're chasing a time go for a fast course but within the legal limits and if you're not then do whatever you enjoy the most that might be the atmosphere that might be a specific race in a certain area or whatever.

1:01:24Alfie Manthorpe: To be honest, it doesn't really matter but just don't do downhill races and claimers PBs and stuff like that. What if you're like me and pick short courses? Yeah, I mean, as soon as you're new, I think you're like, I'll leave it for a bit so people can comment but after that, I'll claim it as a short course. It wasn't like you were deceiving anyone, you know? Like, I feel like you just love to see because we were in Portugal at the time when we found out and you're like, leave it a few hours so I can see what people say and then I'll... There's so many comments. there's so many comments like, oh, you've not acknowledged it's a short course.

1:01:57That's fucking short. You're a cheater. There's so much hate that came out of a post that like, I went and signed up for a 10K. It said it was 10K. Ran a 10K. Yeah. Obviously it came in on my watch like 9.7 or whatever, but still 10K.

1:02:10Alfie Manthorpe: It's your fault for doing that race. It's not their fault for making it short. It's your fault because you picked that race. It's my fault. I'm the scumbag. It's so funny, isn't it? How the world is, but we did acknowledge it. And to be fair, I said it to everyone as soon as I finished the line. I was like, it's a bit short, that. And I remember speaking to people who were crossing the line as well. They're like, no, no, it's not short. I was like, it's short. I saw your time, and I was like, oh, I didn't realize you were that fit. I knew you were fitter than maybe what we thought, but I didn't realize you were that fit.

1:02:40Alfie Manthorpe: And then it was 250 meters short. Still a good run, though. Still a good run. Yeah, it was all right. I think we settled at, what, 32? 32 flats, something like that, yeah. Yeah, something like that, which is an improvement. It's not a PB, but it's an improvement from what we were at. It was the second best performance of our week in that training camp stage. I feel like my high rock session was maybe at the top and then your 10K was second. Yeah, should we touch on that? I didn't want to, but since I brought it up, I kind of did. Yeah, I touched on it a little bit in a YouTube video, so apologies if you've watched that video.

1:03:12If you're not, go watch that video. But yeah, I put Alfie through a high rocks workout and the reason I did this was because a couple of days prior I was doing a track session and you told me to do some burpees and I think I did 30 or 40 meters of burpees and then carried on running at my threshold pace and I was meant to be doing 315s into a k at 345 and then just alternating over and unders and then after i think three sets i did one k at 345 30 burpees or 30 meters worth burpees and then i was meant to run at 315 and he was pacing me and i could not keep up for the life of me i was blowing out my ass i was running horrendously we'll look back at the footage and he was like that form's awful and i think i averaged a 330 off the back of the burpees and when I finished like you will you weren't impressed he was like why did you not just run faster and I was like you don't understand like you don't understand this high rocks like burpees are hard like you can't run that fast off the back of stations and stuff like that so a couple of days later I was doing a high rock session and Alfie was like ah I'll jump in so I ended up just coaching Alfie and I'm not gonna lie deep down I think I wanted you just to suffer a little bit sorry yeah and you should be sorry because you didn't suffer we did sets of 400 meter run into basically half a station 400 meter run half a station 400 meter run half a station then two minutes rest and we did that four times three with different stations so we did i think we did row we did burpees we did lunges and oh we might have just done them three yeah and then thrusters but that was just yeah yeah so we did uh thrusters as well so instead of a wall wall we were on track so we did thrusters and alfie started off and he was running at 67 seconds per lap which is what a 247 yeah per kilometer yeah and i was like he's gonna slow down here does his first 500 meter row pulling an average pace of 146 so yeah it's pretty decent it was just chill as well and it was awful form as well he's pulling a 146 absolute awful form the chain was rattling and everything and then he gets off the rower runs around the track and it's still at 60 seconds 67 seconds still at 247 pace and i was like no way no way he's just done that and then he does it again and again and again and then we get onto the burpees and i'm like he's going to suffer here awful form on burpees but runs off the burpees at the same pace quicker actually yeah maybe quicker i think i think the quickest was the lunges which i was surprised that it was only open weight so it was only 20 kg bag but it was 30 meters of lunges or 40 meters lunges straight into runs and i think he was running 65 seconds per lap i think the burpees

1:06:19Alfie Manthorpe: I averaged 243 per K for the 400s. And I think the lunges was maybe a tiny bit slower. But that was more the thrusters, actually, what got me. I think, actually, from the row, because of my form, my back and arms were done from the row. So when I got to the final set with the thrusters, that's what actually was the worst part, was the lifting the weights above my head. Yeah, you did struggle with the weights. We won't mention the weights that you used, but it was a little bit less than I put out at the start. But I don't care about that. I care about the speed that you was running. And we came down to the conclusion that potentially just having like bigger muscle mass, yes, you might be stronger, but having more muscle mass fills your muscles up with more blood that's harder to move after and harder to budge them after you've actually finished off the movement and you transition into a different movement.

1:07:15so you being leaner you've been a little bit less muscular even though you're still jacked as you'd say for a runner maybe i don't know probably not probably not especially not the minute yeah you do say that you're pretty strong though i know you you and andy have like a bicep off and arm wrestle and push each other all over the place i'd say i'm strong for my weight but i definitely say i'm very far away from being jacked yeah yeah i'd agree but i'm joking uh but it was just so interesting like like you said the speed that he was running off so yeah maybe you know getting strong for hyrox isn't the answer and maybe you just need to be strong enough for hyrox to do the movements but then be as fast as possible and as efficient as possible and i think that's probably uh probably the key going forward i feel like you'll see a lot of hyroxers get leaner and leaner and you probably have seen that over the last couple of years yeah like the size of a high rocker has got Lena to be honest

1:08:15Alfie Manthorpe: I saw obviously the women's world championships was won by a marathon runner and I saw Dylan Scott and Tim Vienish do a race maybe maybe the start of the season last year so 2025 I can remember messaging Joe our manager my manager and was like they're the best I knew like obviously I didn't know who Tim was at the time so maybe it was before he won worlds in 2025 but it was also Dylan I was like they're 100 % the best they will be the best Hyruxes and that was before I had any experience in Hyrux just because they looked like the best runners and the most efficient obviously I know there's Luke Greer I don't really like how he runs to be fair but like you can just tell that's where it's at how much better they look no offence than you off stations is a massive thing but even so going back to you how you looked in Portugal versus how you looked off burpees last week is a completely different thing and that's only four weeks three weeks yeah like you so we did you did a session tuesday where you were doing k on it was a similar session with the flows and you were supposed to run 335s off the burpees as a flow and you ended up running 322s on some of them so that was 10 seconds quicker than what you were running when you meant to run 315s so there's a big difference in such a short space of time and i think that's maybe there isn't really an adaptation for improving blood shunting other than just improving fitness like in terms of aerobic fitness like there's not a specific blood shunting adaptation it's just been getting more efficient at moving that blood by getting aerobically fitter i think that's maybe what you've come to and also getting better at running so then the running's just easier as well which so that's probably been the biggest thing yeah and it makes sense i've always thought what we mean by blood shunting by the way is basically moving from station to station where the blood is required or using muscles different to the muscles that you use in after you change stations so say for example you're going into burpees where it's more like upper body dominant your shoulders might be aching and then you go into a run where your legs are going to be kind of taking the load and that blood shunting effect of the blood going from the upper to the lower you were saying and i think chris brammer as well who we're going to get on the podcast by the way um really really clever guy uh was saying there's no actual adaptation for that and like i said you don't do any blood shunting within your life you are just a pure runner you've never done any of them exercise really but you were so good running off the back of them so it clearly shows that it's the aerobic fitness and it's the efficiency of running that is getting you through that and nothing else really which makes sense and it i don't know it's changed my training a lot i always thought you've got to you've got to practice the actual thing of doing a station into a run doing a station into a run where maybe you might be just better practicing the station getting really efficient at the station and getting really efficient at the run and then on race day you just deal with it and i don't know do you know what i mean there's still i think there's a good balance there yeah there's a balance i'm not saying neglect it completely but i think you've still got to get that feeling and know what that feeling's like but i think training it might be a little bit different as well because what i love about maybe going into burpees and into running it absolutely kills you to then run after burpees but you've not had to run to get there so you've not had to go through generally why people don't train really hard all the time it's because of the impact that puts on the body whereas if you can do burpees it's kind of like run up a hill if you can do 40 meters 50 meters of burpees and be really fatigued and then have to run and deal with it like the amount of running i'd have to ask you to do to get to that point or how hard i'd ask you to run to do that it's such a less of an injury risk well maybe because of the burpee movement you might be a different injury risk but it's such a less of a running requirement to get there which is why i love it and why do these on off sessions or far like sessions i love putting hyrox movements in there is because it's a way to simulate what I would do in my training without having to ask you to do an extra K really hard.

1:12:30Alfie Manthorpe: And that is just a great balance. Once it gets the movement in to, it gets you to practice running off it just from a feeling point of view. And also it just gets you where you need to be in a different way. And I just feel like it's a really good combination. So that's why I do it rather than the blood shunting aspect. final opinion well final thing i want your opinion on should i say is a bit of a taboo subject i think and it's losing weight for running because let's be honest in running power to weight ratio matters a hell of a lot and the easiest way to do that is to drop weight now it's a bit of a taboo because you shouldn't advise people to drop weight um it can be unsafe it can cause like eating disorders and everything else but what's your kind of opinion on it because i think there is also another side to it where it is true like you do get faster dropping weight it's it is a difficult conversation to kind of like have and i know that you i think to be fair you don't really advise it but um obviously a time and place?

1:13:45Alfie Manthorpe: So I would say firstly, I look the way I do and have my body fat percentage, whatever, from having 5 ,000 calories a day and also never weighing myself. The only time I've ever weighed myself is to make sure I had not lost too much weight. And I always say that like being a fueled, healthy runner is a lot better than being an under fueled, lighter runner. Like it's always better to be healthy and fueled and ready to train and race than it would be to be depleted because you've tried to restrict calories and lose weight all that being said obviously there is an optimal weight I've noticed it where sometimes I might start eating a bit cleaner and you know lose a bit of general there's a bit of body fat while still eating a lot of calories anyway but you know maybe cut a tiny tiny bit and you do feel quite a big difference in how you feel and how you're efficient but it has to be in a healthy way you've seen it with Josh Kerr he's the leanest he's ever been, ran the mile world record, won the Commonwealth's.

1:14:43Alfie Manthorpe: It's a massive thing, but you have to be healthy first. That's the only thing that matters. So if it was a choice between the two, it's always be healthy and fueled. If you have the luxury of like me, I'm always extremely healthy because of the way I eat and the way I recover. I can maybe, even in the last few months, I've maybe looked at it a bit more and gone could I lose a bit of body fat maybe put a bit of muscle off the back of that and be a better runner and as long as I stay healthy I would I will do that but I think generally being healthy is the main thing that matters constantly really.

1:15:19I just want to mention for people that do want to drop a little bit of weight and they feel like they could drop weight healthily how

1:15:30Alfie Manthorpe: would you go about that i feel like you've always got to keep in fueling around key sessions like any hard day i would say not change a single thing at all like don't look for any calorie deficit on your hard days because that's just a very quick and easy way to get injured or ill definitely don't fast before a run because that's also another quick way to get injured or ill So I would say look for a calorie deficit on your easiest days. But for me, I would say the key is even then, like look deeper into the calories and go, how can I maximize carbs and protein still for the best bang for buck calorie ratio to carbs and protein?

1:16:17Alfie Manthorpe: I know that's kind of hard, especially with carbs, but there's still, you know, I just try to get cleaner, eat cleaner if I'm ever trying to cut. Like I try to keep all the same things in. just eat a bit cleaner you know that might be a couple hundred calories a day if that i i preferably would do that but also i think from your experience we've mentioned you'd rather not prolong it and get it done a bit quicker but i think if you are doing that the training can't be intense at all i'd actually offload more training onto cross trainer as well so you lower the impact on the body because your body is in a deficit like it's kind of in the name it's the deficit your body's not getting what it needs so you're gonna recover worse you're gonna perform worse so you need to balance those things out as well as possible yeah i think as well doing it as far away from like your prep or competition is probably the most sensible thing to do if you can get in shape before actually starting an intense prep where you are going to be going hard three times a week and it's going to be generally going to be increasing mileage and that progressive overload with you running every single week like don't add dieting in on top of all that because that's just gonna be an extra stressor and you're gonna end up with problems yeah so like just do it when you're easy running maybe like and and have four weeks before you even start a prep or four weeks off um and you might be dieting for four weeks and you might just easy run once or twice a day or cross train or whatever and have it really easy and that way you can then like manage stresses and I think that's what it's all about it's all about managing stress rather than just trying to think how can I stress my body out as much as possible in one goal that should be like the you want to leave all your stress and minimize your stress in every other area of your life apart from kind of like the training so you can get maximum adaptation otherwise you're just going to be training and not adapting from it and that's probably the worst thing that you can do And then the last thing is if you're dieting and you ever get like any early niggles or soreness or anything like that in joints or just like pains that you're not really used to, then I'd probably just stop the dieting.

1:18:29Yep. Because you don't want it to turn into stress fractures or your body doesn't recover as fast when you're dieting.

1:18:35Alfie Manthorpe: so yeah also for me if i'm like training if i feel a bit weaker on a training session or a bit more fatigued for a few days mine and my coaches initial reaction is always eat more straight away just eat more then maybe look at sleeping more hydrating better and things like that but it's always quick fix or like the best way to target that or try to target that is just eating more because be more fueled so it is such a hard subject to talk about because what i'd love to say is to everyone is don't think about it at all do the other you know maybe increase volume heat train whatever other options to improve running fitness and I think cumulatively over months and months and months and months if you're eating a bit cleaner and not even caring about a calorie deficit at all it will just probably naturally happen but I know you for example having coached you and spoken to in the past a lot of people sometimes don't want to weight because they might think going back to power to weight ratio it is quite a big fitness improver in the short term if you stay healthy and do cut weight so they're instantly like i just want to get the results but i'd love to say it's a long game complete like long game it's a much safer option yeah makes sense okay moving on i put a q a out on instagram yesterday people have replied with the questions that they want answers for.

1:19:58First one, when is Alfie doing a high rocks?

1:20:03Alfie Manthorpe: It depends when it works. With marathon, it's a bit harder now because the prep for a marathon is really hard and then the come down after a marathon is really shitty. So I would love to say usually it'd be straight after a race because then like a 10K race the week after, have a down week and do a high rocks. Can't really do that with a marathon because I won't be able to perform at all. So I don't have a date for that. I'll definitely do one. Maybe, I'm going to say like 2028 or something like that. If I make the Olympic team after the Olympics, I'll do a high rocks. I'm not going to lie. I think you're going about it right by just saying that you'd get the world records if you did a high rocks and then just never doing a high rocks.

1:20:44I did 100 % get the open world record in high rocks. There we go. And then just never do a high rocks. Yeah, exactly. And then people can just do the talk shit. And the doubles world record. no one will know yeah yeah I love it what is your favourite distance to race and this is to both of us apparently 10k 10k I think I think mine would be 10k or half marathon I think in running do you still get a runner's high

1:21:17Alfie Manthorpe: yeah for sure even I run today like towards the end I feel like you definitely got it today yeah what was you doing explain what the the perfect combination of today's running session was i was like running with someone is is a massive thing like being with your mates on a run obviously we love to run i think so that helps nice weather not too hot either but like perfect summer's day and you had a little speaker with you so it was just a bit of everything and the session was really easy for me so that helps you did my session yeah yeah um so it was great it It was brilliant. It was a pretty tough session still.

1:21:51What was it? It was 3K warm-up and then six rounds of 2K at 330 pace, 1K at 4km pace, alternating between them. You did it in the Pures.

1:22:04Alfie Manthorpe: I did it in the Superbust Freeze, which is actually a better shoe for that than the Pure. So you were actually working proportionally harder than me as well. That was the next question. Shoes. What is your shoe rotation? Okay. I would say watch the YouTube video I'm putting out soon, but for the clip and also the podcast, I'll give you an actual answer. I would say for recovery and easy runs, the Vemiro Plus is still my favorite. It's one of the best shoes ever made. I think the best shoe ever made for that purpose of like protecting you and also still feeling good. Daily trainers, I actually really like the Puma Velocity, just like a bit of a no-nonsense one, or like the Vemiro 17.

1:22:44Alfie Manthorpe: For a bit of that quicker run, like longer runs, or when you wanted to pick up the paces a bit, I am loving the Super Blast 3 right now. For non-carbon training, the Deviate Pure from Puma, or the Sockney Endorphin Azura, is really good. Or the actual Skechers Air Eraser, I think is probably the quickest one of those. For carbon training, I really like the Deviate Elites. From Puma, I like the Asics Metaspeed Sky Tokyos. Then for Speedwork, if I'm running a bit quicker but not in carbons, I'd maybe wear the Takumi, Ades Takumi or the Nike Streakfly. Then for Race Day, still, it's the shoe I'm testing, which is a secret shoe at the minute, or the Puma Fast R3, for sure.

1:23:26Alfie Manthorpe: Did I miss anything? You've seen my shoes quite a lot. I think you covered everything there. Do you know what we're going to do for the clip? how much Alfie spends on one running shoe rotation per week. And we'll add up the price of all them shoes and see how much it would be to buy your shoe rotation. Well, I wore 35 shoes last month, so maybe I could send you the full list. You can put that there. You know what's mad as well? People think, oh, you just get given all these shoes for free. I know you spend a fucking fortune on shoes. Like, yes, you get some for free, but you also love your research and you're that much of a nerd.

1:24:02You spend so much fucking money on shoes, whether it's running spikes or whether like, you did one track event or two track, you've done two track events this year. How many pairs of running spikes have you bought? Six. Like what?

1:24:16Alfie Manthorpe: Need to know which one was the best. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It's just mad. I am very fortunate to get set shoes as well. And a shoe I didn't mention, what I wouldn't wear, but I would recommend is the Vermeer Premium for anyone who really struggles to get out the door and run. Like for easy running or recovery. Someone who really struggles with injury or just really needs like a max, max cushion shoe, maybe training for an ultra, the Vemira Premium is ridiculous. You're a bit of a shoe slut. I am. The biggest. The biggest. But we love it. Touching on that, what is the importance of actually having a shoe rotation?

1:24:52Because I put out a post and you probably could go find it probably two years ago and it was a carbon plated shoe. I think it was the DV8 Elite 2. and I was like, look guys, running shoe rotations is fucking bullshit. You just need one shoe for every single run and that's all I did for about a year. That was an awful shoe by the way. And I just ran in a carbon plated shoe, one shoe and I was like, I didn't even have like multiple pairs of the shoe. I just ran it into the ground, probably not a year, probably like three months.

1:25:23Alfie Manthorpe: Yeah. But what is the importance of actually rotating your shoes and having like different cushions and shit like that? I think obviously you don't have to do it. And if you didn't, I'd probably say that DVA Pure is the go-to to do everything. But for me, the most important thing is when I look to optimize everything in training the way I do, it's about going into a session with intent and what is the purpose of that session. So for easy, I call it zone one, zone two stuff, it's to get lower impact aerobic stimulus in without risking too much injury and also trying to recover for the next session.

1:25:59so a higher cushions more comfortable shoe is the better option because carbon shoes are quite

1:26:05Alfie Manthorpe: aggressive they would help your mechanics too much where you might if you always wore a carbon shoe you might get a bit lazy with the mechanics and become more inefficient but also because of the way they work they might cause some more pressure on specific joints that's another reason it allows you to put the pressure at different points on your body rather than just constantly hammering the same exact points if you wear the same shoe all the time it's going to be the exact same or if you're on the same terrain as well it's going to be exact same impact on the body leads to a higher risk of overloading injuries so that's why but then also if you go into a session without carbon i think that helps train efficiency where even today like you were the pure for track workouts sometimes i wear the pure or the azura where it's not carbon plate to get more of a harder stimulus in without having to run faster so again it helps me reduce the injury risk a bit and also get a harder workout in.

1:27:00Alfie Manthorpe: And then obviously race days are self-explanatory so make you run as fast as possible. But you don't need one. It's just optimizing it. Makes sense. And after you enlightened me a couple of months ago, that's why I have a shoe rotation now. Do good socks matter with good running shoes? I don't know how you run in the socks you do. You generally run in just a normal 247 trainer socks, don't you? Yeah, you're going to call them out. I run in the 247 race socks. Alfie's going to get sacked after this. No, no. They're great for gym, training, easy runs, which I wear them for. But any session, I have to wear the race sock.

1:27:38Alfie Manthorpe: Or I don't wear socks at all. Yeah, that is mad. That is proper road because your shoes don't just start smelling. No. My feet, I don't really smell. I don't really sweat enough, to be honest. But I prefer to be streamlined as possible and as light as possible. and the thicker the socks, the kind of more clunky I feel. So I always try to go longer. I didn't see that you started shaving your legs. Is that a reason as well? No, people just bullied me about how high my legs were. So I had to shave them. You're hanging around with the wrong people, aren't you? Talk about your heat training. What do you use to measure slash track them?

1:28:14Alfie Manthorpe: So the heat training, the premise is to increase blood plasma volume, increase hemoglobin, red blood cells. People can go back to the other podcasts if they want to know. the full details so that's the reason improves fitness but also like for me it's either passive or active active would be wearing a substantial amount of layers and a core sensor which is attached to the heart rate monitor sensor and it detects skin temperature and also uses an algorithm to predict core body temperature which is the metric you're trying to target is to get the core body temperature in a certain window to get the adaptation that's with a lot of layers running for about 45 minutes that absolutely is the worst thing on the planet I think I hate it so much one while you're doing it is the most miserable thing and also two how much washing you have to do afterwards because just soaking wet clothes twice a day or once a day it's a lot so I actually at the minute much prefer doing passive sessions which is either a hot bath for 45 minutes or a sauna post exercise for about 20 to 30 minutes depending on how long I'll last usually 20 if it's post-exercise or half an hour if it's just not post-exercise or maybe from gym rather than running and yeah that's what I do try to do it four or five times a week at the minute as I get closer towards the race block usually try to do it for about six weeks which is very consistent and dialed so I try definitely to do it five times a week probably mix between active and passive and yeah it's pretty intense and miserable to be honest.

1:29:45Alfie Manthorpe: Takes the fun out of the sauna like we were saying yesterday first 10 minutes is actually pretty enjoyable and then you start to suffer and it's just it just sucks how many haircuts until you're not blonde anymore it's usually about two and a half months worth of haircuts so whatever that is you tell me how many haircuts you have in two and a half months i have one every week okay i don't have a haircut every week so by the way i do have hair a lot of people think i wear this cap fucking non-stop but i do actually have hair but i don't know why i get it cut every week because i never have it showing i probably had about seven haircuts six or seven haircuts um before the blonde fully went yeah interesting people are liking it yeah i mean i've got a cap on right now but can you see it poking out yeah yeah yeah people are loving it i think you should keep it i'm gonna i'm gonna keep going back to it final question how is it to coach jake how do you cope with him always wanting to do more did you ask this question no so about three four people actually Can I give a full, massive answer for this?

1:30:49Alfie Manthorpe: Coaching you has been a very interesting challenge. I also think I've learned more about myself and you as well, to be fair, in terms of my patience, but also how to deal with you. I feel like, have you ever seen TikToks? It's about soft parenting, where you almost got to make the child think it's their idea or their decision. That's how I do it with you. So it has got better. And I've actually noticed, maybe it was a coincidence, but since I did the higher-ox session, you seem to start listening to me more as well. Maybe that's a coincidence. Each week, it seems like you're listening more. Sometimes it's just, I'm looking at my phone and seeing your Strava or seeing your person on Instagram.

1:31:25Alfie Manthorpe: I'm like, well, I didn't set him that. And then it's like, it is very annoying, but because you're you, I almost, I had a massive go about him to you the other day because I feel bad, not bad telling you, but there's obviously different ways to deal with it. So it's very frustrating at times or was in the past when I'd set you something, spend maybe an hour writing a plan for the next few months thinking about every specific detail about how the training works and the adaptations and then also the stress that'll put on your body and you just go and do an extra two and a half hours of training on the day which you've done like some some days even a few days ago you did three sessions or in a day or maybe even four we haven't decided that when it was like an easy run and that was the day after you were too tired on a long run session so sometimes that's quite hard to see but also at the same time I think it's great that you want to work so hard because for example I was setting you a bike rather than elliptical because I thought mentally you wouldn't want to burn an elliptical indoors for two hours so it was a bike ride and you're like I'll just go on the elliptical so now on the day when you don't do any running it's a longer cardio stimulus you're happy to go on the elliptical for two hours like I've never met anyone who works as hard as you so it's almost like a blessing and the curse on one side you almost have an addiction at working hard and always have to feel like you're working hard which can lead to maybe injury or fatigue but at the same time it's very easy for me to set you a session and know that you're not going to give up in that session so it's like a really nice balance and I think recently especially it seems like you're approaching it quite a lot more sensibly and different like we've planned your like even travel next week like we luckily we're having a down week not luckily because we planned it but down week next week because you're going to Salzburg you're doing some testing and then you're going to LA so we know what to do that week whereas I feel like maybe in the past even with like doing podcasts I feel like now we know where your time's being committed elsewhere out of training and how to deal with that whereas before I think you were just doing both simultaneously and just being a bit too sporadic whereas now it's very dialed in um I really love coaching you so I actually think you have the capability of being the best in the world at something I think it's pretty cool coaching someone to be the best in the world at something like that's cool like I mean training for that as well must feel pretty cool like you get to compete at the world championships you will be competing in the singles and the doubles by next year going for the win I'm fully confident about that that's pretty cool like there's not many chances you get to coach someone who could be the best in the world at something so yeah it's uh it's I would say 90 % of the time it's great 10 % of the time it's extremely disheartening to see you do something else but yeah and I do promise that I'm getting better it's it's ending a battle with myself I think when you're not where you want to be and you're getting the results that you don't really want and uneducated people i say uneducated people because it's not uneducated but it's like they're just saying just work harder yeah and i have a lot of people who just say oh you just need to work out it just need to work out just need to work harder and then you've got the actual answer which is how you're coaching me it's actually just do less but do it better and it's very very hard to listen to that because of the first bit just do less but because I have been doing less and gradually I've been listening to you more and more I've actually been doing everything better and I've been getting better I've been feeling better had more energy hopefully I've been a better person to even be around as well because I'm not getting injured.

1:35:20When I'm injured, I'm the worst person in the world because I'm just fucking miserable. Yeah. And, you know, I suck the life out of fucking anything because like all I want to do is be better again.

1:35:30Alfie Manthorpe: And that was the most frustrating thing for maybe seeing your training when I wasn't coaching you or even when I was and you weren't listening as much. It's kind of, I know what that path takes you down. It gets you injured or fatigued and then that then leads you to then chase more and that leads to more injuries and more fatigue. So it's like a never ending cycle. And you're also more miserable then. You can't train as well. So you're just slowly losing more and more fitness. And - Crazy. Last year, I don't think I strung together more than 10 weeks of training where I didn't get injured. And even in that 10 weeks, I probably got ill, like sick and got run down a little bit, but just trained through.

1:36:08Alfie Manthorpe: Yeah. But also now though, even though you're doing a bit, I wouldn't say a bit less actually, because it's still a lot of volume, but we need places to build. whereas I can remember you came off the marathon in January and you were already racing and then I feel like you got burnt out because you had nowhere to go like now we've got a plan through till Tenerife but then the plan after that so that's Tenerife's start of September right but I know exactly what training roughly obviously because you need to be flexible with it is going to take you through all the way to next year in terms of the phases whereas before I don't think there was any real phases so that's a big thing but to give people some context maybe still how you can be sometimes if they've not watched a YouTube video on Tuesday where me and Emily were down at the track and this was on camera I was like, it's Jake's big thing I need him on double training days to take carbohydrates from the session and I was like, Jake, have you got your carbs?

1:37:04Alfie Manthorpe: Yep. Have you drank some carbs? Yep. And Emily went, no you haven't turns out the carbs weren't even in the bottle at all he didn't even bring carbs with you and you told me straight, while it's been filmed, that you just had some, when on camera you could see that you hadn't had some. So that was like a lie you'd never escape. But I feel like there's still some parts of you that love to know you're working harder than you need to be. Like even sometimes when I set you splits, you love running quicker just so you know you're doing that tiny bit more. Yeah, I like running quicker. Even like the behind the card thing, I don't know, it's stupid, but I think just that like, that grittiness of like, I want to suffer.

1:37:44This session is meant to be hard. I want to suffer. I want to get to the end of this session. And then I can refuel. I can do anything, but I want to put max effort into this session. And that means I'm not fucking around with anything during the session. I'm just hitting the session as hard as possible. But obviously, like you say, that's not the key to longevity. And this is a longevity game. I think endurance and endurance sports is just a longevity game. The longer you can spend, not injured, progressively getting better and better and better, you're going to be the winner at the end.

1:38:21Alfie Manthorpe: The key is how can I make the things I need to do as easy as possible? Like today, even when I was like, run behind me in this because of the wind. And I know people might not want to do that because you want to tough it out. But earlier on in that long run, I was like, I want him to get towards the end of the long run. if we don't have to run quicker because he's fresh because he ran behind me in the wind cool, but I don't want to get you to that point where you're depleted and worked too hard so it's always about just being making all the things you need to take off as smooth and easy as possible and then you can work on pushing hard if you need to that's it, that's the key to success and just doing more, that's how you do more if everything's always a fight you're just going to run into illness, fatigue and injury so it's pretty simple really and but it is a great knowing that you're never going to have an issue with working hard because that's also i know so many people who have failed at the sport because they don't want to work hard so you're the other end of it so it's a different challenge but it's a much in some ways it's a nicer challenge to deal with because i never have to worry about making a session fun or setting you this certain things because i know a lot of people who I've coached before, oh, can I change this?

1:39:36Alfie Manthorpe: So it's a bit more exciting. It's like, no, we're doing what we need to do and you're never going to have that problem. Thank you, Alfie. Okay. I think we'll call that a podcast. Yeah. Yeah, thank you. See you again soon, I suppose. Yeah, back to number five. Yeah. Like I say, I think someone actually said that you need to be a co-host. I feel like with me by itself, if there's not another guest, it will get very boring quickly because I can remember the first podcast we did, everyone was like, oh, I could listen to this to fall asleep because we're both pretty monotone. So maybe we need an Andy or a Hugo Fry because those two podcasts were very complementary to my lack of personality on camera, I'd say.

1:40:13We need someone that's got a bit of sense of humor and isn't as dry as us two.

1:40:17Alfie Manthorpe: I think we have a lot of sense of humor. It's just in a different way. I would say we have a lot of sense of humor. I really do think that. Yeah, we just can't put it on camera. Yeah, and it is in a weird way as well. Yeah. There we go. Thank you for having me on. Cheers, mate.