Joshua Charnley - #31

0:00Josh Charnley, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me. Can you just sum up yourself in a couple of words for the people that may not know who you are? Heavily tattooed.

0:17Good question. Let's start off, what sport do you do? Played rugby league. Played rugby league since I was six. started off playing football too aggressive flipped to rugby league grew up in Chorley I've got a wife two kids one on the way I'm coming to the back end of my career now so how are you I'm 34 35 in June so yeah creeping up there but yeah I've I've really enjoyed my time in the sport and doing what I've done and yeah I've been blessed with a lot of stuff over the years I think that's a very humble approach I'd say you're definitely much more than that much more than just a rugby player I think you're one of rugby league's most famous players I'd probably say and biggest players currently you were just saying then you're neck and neck with the league's top ever try scorer.

1:20Is that right? Yeah. So most tries ever. Yeah. How many you on? Do you know? I think I'm on 269. Ryan Hall's on 271. So I needed, so I was four behind him on Friday night. And I scored three, he scored one. So it like made it a little bit more of a challenge. But yeah, it's going to go neck and neck till probably the end of the year. Yeah. That's amazing. So you're both still playing. Yeah. And he's 38. you're 34 34 slash 35 so it's basically kind of who retires first. Do you speak to him? Yeah We don't speak about that but like we'll have chats over instantly. It's probably in the back of both your minds.

2:01Yeah it's because now we're coming closer and closer every interview that probably me or Ryan are going to do over the next few weeks is probably going to be on about how do you think about what Josh or what's your thoughts about Ryan, is he going to be worried or are you scared that Josh is going to overtake you? That's what it's going to be like. Yeah, no, that's class. But I think that as a whole just highlights how good of a rugby player you've been over the time. Let's take it all back to when it all started. How did you even get into rugby? So, Charlie Panthers. So I went down, there's a lad who used to play rugby.

2:36He's retired a few years ago called Jamie Ellis. He took me down to a training session at Charlie Panthers, which was a school close to our estate that we lived on. So, yeah, I went down there and, like I say, because I was a bit energetic and loved, like, running around and tackling. What was you like as a kid? Yeah, I think I was just flying around everywhere. I was like a wasp, like, very energetic. Didn't really stay indoors. I was always outdoors. I lived next to, like, a massive field, so I was always out in the fields. And so, yeah, I had a lot of energy. and like I say, I went down to rubber league and I think that's where I could let a little bit of, not anger out, but like a little bit of stress out by tackling kids and just feeling like you can dominate people.

3:22So yeah, I think I fell in love with the sport then and then it just, like I say, it just progressed from there, signed up to the team, but because Jamie is a year older than me, I had to play the team down. So I got introduced to the coach then and then, yeah, from there, it was just, I just loved the game that much that, yeah, I just put everything into it. What did rugby league give you that football didn't?

3:51Probably, I'd say, you can't really tackle anyone in football, can you? Definitely not now. You probably could when you was a kid, to be fair. But no, I think the game's more exciting to play. you let's say I know you're what is it 11 players on a football team where there's 13 and you've got a few subs but everyone's different and I like being a part of like I said the team and so when I was growing up you're getting kids from private schools or normal schools council estates and everyone just bought into the sport because everyone wants to play rugby so it was just like second nature to kids just that everyone as soon as rugby ball come out everyone played like it'd be same anywhere with football you see kids play football on the streets but with us with rugby ball like it would just as soon as that was out it just went into a game and then that was it everyone just got the buzz for it it's so sick how like no matter what class you come from especially being in the uk like let's say a rubber ball comes out and you don't give a fuck like yeah that's it like you you can smash anyone you can do i mean you can tackle anyone like like you say uh it's all kind of left on the field i feel like whereas football is probably a little bit different like do you know someone can piss you off in a game but you can't do anything about it yeah and i remember like playing 11 aside on sunday league when i was younger and it was all i'll see you in the car park after yeah i get guess it's not like that in rugby league like you have it out on the field yeah as soon as that whistle goes you shake around give him a nug say well done all best next week like whereas like football is a little bit more I'd probably say a little bit more bitchy.

5:30Yeah, you don't get that. Like I say, you don't really get that in rugby. As soon as the whistle goes, I can say I've played with so many people over the years and developed friendships. So, yeah, I'm best mates with some lads who I play against. But as soon as that whistle goes, we're enemies. I'll run at him as hard as I can. He'll run at me as hard as he can. We'll try and bang each other. It's just the way it is. And then as soon as the whistle goes, let's say you're back to being mates, shaking hands. It's just mad. It's just, like you say, it's a good sport to channel your inner vision and flick the switch to do what you want to do.

6:04That's class. So, obviously, you started off in Chorley. Yeah. When did you realise that you were pretty good at this? So, I think I got to about age 13. Wigan Warriors had like a player development camp. So, I got picked up at 13. But I was a late developer, mate. I was really small. Didn't really, mate, I was very fussy with food. Like, my dad used to have to, like, force feed me chicken and, like, I used to eat jam butties and pombos. Like, that were me. Seriously? Yeah, I would say I was. That's mad because, like, obviously seeing you now, like, just, like, the size of you. It's mad. That's insane.

6:42But, yeah, so, like, I was a late bloomer. Wigan picked me up. And because I was quick, nippy, I was agile on my feet. I played, like, six and seven, so, like, a playmaker role. So I was quite clued up with like rugby IQ at a young age, studied it a lot, like watching, let's say your Wiggins and when England or Great Britain played, I used to watch them games. So yeah, I thought I was clued up on the game. So I think Wigan picked me up because I was a late developer and they wanted kids a little bit bigger, a little bit broader. Like I got released. So I thought that was like, I remember being sat in the car with my dad at Wigan.

7:20I was like, fuck, like I thought my world had crashed down. and all I wanted to do is play rugby. How old was you at this time? I was 14. 14, so you've been there a year. So I've been there a year, yeah. So I was going like Tuesday, Thursday nights doing this thing. Yeah, but I thought, like I said, you think, I'm going to make it, and then your world comes crashing down. But then it was one of those where I thought, you know what, let's have a dig at this. So I started training with my dad at a gym in Charlie called Pascal's, like a little, like a muscle gym. Old school, it's not changed now.

7:55Old school bodybuilding gym. Yeah, it's not changed. And was your dad always into the gym? Yeah, so my dad's always been, my dad used to ride motorbikes, martial arts. Like he's an Andy Bork and like he's, what is he now, 60 odd. He can still do the splits. Like he's so flexible. Who'd win in a fight? Me and my dad. Yeah, yeah. I couldn't hit my dad. I let him bang me. But did he, like, not force it on you, but, like, give you the knowledge of fighting at a young age and the value of not fighting, but being able to hold your own in a situation? Did you ever do, like, martial arts or jiu-jitsu?

8:35Yeah, but that ties into rugby. So, like, with the grappling techniques of martial arts, like getting people down to floor, it ties in with rugby, like, hitting through the hips or, you know. So, yeah, we did – it's called Vale Tudo. I don't think he's a brand anymore. It was a guy called Dave Dillon in Charlotte. I did a few years with him. And yeah, I think that led me into like enjoying wrestle defense more in rugby where when you're a kid, you just want the ball in your hand and scorcherize and, you know, set things up. But having that bit of a background led into me understanding, right, I can, if there's a 60 kilo kid running at me, I could bend him.

9:14Or it was just one of those where, like I said, the mindset switches from, you know I can do some damage if if you want to so yeah that that martial arts background ties a lot into rugby league and they still do it now like we'll still get like coaches coming in from uh Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or you know MMA coming into to camp and saying right these are what techniques you could work on in in your wrestle so yeah them two sports tie hand in hand but yeah my dad uh he did drive me a lot not he weren't pushy but he just guided me around the gym like I say, I'm 14, I'm not developed. Like I shouldn't have really been in there, but I weren't fucking lifting heavy weights.

9:55I was doing more like chins, press-ups, ab crunches. Like, you know, just - Kind of like Rocky style. Yeah, just ticking over. But yeah, so I did that for a fair few years. And then I moved from Charlie Panthers to a team in Wigan called Wigan St. Pat's. I was 16 at the time. And I was 16 playing under 18. So I was playing two years up. and the coach from Wigan that I scout came to one of the final games and my coach at Pat said, oh, Wigan are here, like, show them what you can do. So kick-off came, I caught the ball. I was playing full-back, I caught the ball. I went full length for the pitch, scored.

10:35Literally, he was stood behind the barrier and I scored right in front of him. After the game, he pulled my dad and said, I want Josh to come down to the academy. So then that's when that started and then I got an academy deal, then signed a reserves deal and then at 18 I signed first team. That's insane. How did it feel after being turned down and being let go at 14, then 16, playing two years above, him coming, watching, how did that feel? And saying, I want you to come down. Yeah, it's good because like I say, some kids or some people can think I'm not 13, 14, deflated, don't want to do it, fall out of the love of the sport, like find girls coming to play, don't they, lads start going out drinking on the parks.

11:26But no, with, like I say, my dad not being disciplined with me, but being more structured with the way that I handle myself and apply myself, I think that put me in the right instead to you know think right i am talented i've got pace like i could do something with this if i put everything into it and which i did like so so did your dad like reassure you with all this like like when you did get dropped it was like look keep keep out this yeah like all my family was like i say because they could see the bigger picture that i was i was getting into like northwest regional camps i was like i was doing really well at a young age so uh i did have potential there it would just how do you channel that downfall into trying to make yourself better so like I say mum and dad were really good uh let's say my old man used to race so like he'll have heart breaks where they didn't win or get on a podium so like I had that knowledge from from him from you know his past the his life of competing so yeah it just transferred into that and I think we we just like say we we channeled everything into trying to grow me as a person like it was only like say small mentally and physically yeah yeah so i think i've always been mentally strong from like growing up on a council estate like the way that we lived and yeah i think i've always been i don't think anyone could break me mentally i'm pretty i'm to be fair yeah i'm i'm pretty strong with mental resilience and like if when times get hard i can handle it and channel it right and is that like in all aspects of life would you say yeah not just like on the pitch not just when you're doing a hard workout like when shit goes wrong in life as well are you are you kind of like the the man that everyone looks to yeah i think like you're the one that's going to be solid and that like brick wall that doesn't break yeah so like especially like family life so like our youngest we got our we got axel diagnosed at three with uh autism so like when when someone says to your son that uh your son's not going to be speaking like he's autistic this label's going for the rest of their life we felt like our world crashed like bless my wife she struggled really with it but like i said you got to see the bigger picture i know you you dwell well on it because you expect your kids to grow up and live a healthy life which actually is like he's he's so intelligent like he's still non-verbal he's eight now but he's still non-verbal but he can say things and I think I was like the rock through that that time because it is tough mate like having someone tell you about your own kid it's tough but yeah I think Zoe turned to me a lot in that where in sometimes I'm like I turn to Zoe even though I don't like express my emotions like I'm not really much of a crier or like if I'm feeling down I'll just go and give her a no go like just let her know that but I won't like I won't show any signs of like being upset so yeah that's I think the like say the mental resilience that I've got I can channel it in the right areas that's it do you think that's like a superpower uh yeah because people can crack easy can't they like especially if well in any industry like if you get pressure some people go make or break i'm done i'm waving the flag or do you step up and think fuck it i'm i'll take this head on and and see what comes of it but yeah i think it's got to be on it like if you get put in a tricky situation are you gonna put your mind to it or are you just gonna say oh no it's too hard for me where i'll i'd assess it and then go with it where do you where do you actually think like you learned that from let's say do you think it was from going up on a council estate or do you think it was let you say these these kind of like knockbacks and setbacks Yeah, maybe.

15:32But I think, so you've got to make a lot of sacrifices as like, so I miss going out on the park with the kids after school, you know. Like, didn't really have a computer growing up as a kid. So I was, like I say, I've just worked hard. And I feel like the sacrifices that you make when you're younger just makes it a lot easier through the years that you're growing up. So like I say, I've missed so much. Like I say, all mates are going out on a Friday. my dad's you're not going out i'm like right so i'm like i love going garden kick ball around like so yeah i think it's just one of those where i think it's been ingrained with me since i was young and it's always i think uh like you say i think your family setup may have been a little bit different like to have your parents support you in rugby and like see that you've got this potential yeah normally it's like the other way around like you'd absolutely love rugby and then your parents be like oh well what if you get dropped yeah what you're gonna fall back on and all this shit like uh do you think that was important for them to say like you can like be who you want to be and like you you can achieve what you want to achieve and like just go like all in on that yeah i think if you if your parents have any doubt in you then that creeps into you uh like i said they knew i had potential because i was getting picked for like certain camps and i was getting looked at by certain clubs and it was just one of those where they knew that if I didn't give it my all and then, like I said, going out on the streets, hanging around with my mates more would have crept in and then I wouldn't have had a care in the world about rugby.

17:05But because I've been like self-disciplined with my dad and brought up the right way, I think it was just one of those where I weren't too fussed about going knocking around on the streets or getting chased off to police or I was more focused on, right, I can get a good night's sleep. I'll be up early for training. And then that was my release instead of going up park smoking fags and drinking beer like that just wasn't me yeah no it's interesting um because like say it was exactly the same me growing up like uh yeah the the temptation or like even just like say you get to that age and you you're just trying to be like rebellious yeah and like say going on the park and doing them things so you know knocking around with girls or whatever it is like that's just like the common thing to do yeah it's the cool thing to do as well yeah especially from like where we're from like it's you're boring if you're training yeah it's cool if you're doing fuck all yeah it's mad yeah um so you like say you got picked for the first team yeah how did that first season go so 2010 i made my and this is a wigan debut yeah so 2000 so coming into like when was it it was probably like april may june so like May time I went on lawn from Wigan to Blackpool Panthers so they were like two divisions below Super League so I went on lawn just to get some game time against all the men uh played full back there and then I absolutely carved it up I think I scored five or six tries in like two games three games and then uh the center at Hull KR was called Jake Webster got injured I think he He ruptured his calf.

18:49So he got injured. And then the coach from Hull KR sent me play against a few teams for Blackpool and rung Wigan and said, oh, we want to take Josh on loan. So I signed like a week-to-week deal with Hull KR. So I trained Monday, Tuesday with Wigan. Wednesday, I drive up to Hull, stay over in Hull, train Thursday, I have a play Friday or Saturday. So I made my actual Super League debut for Hull KR against, it was against Leeds Rhinos. So I was 80-odd kg playing centre, never played centre before, against Keith Senior, who's like an icon of rugby league. And yeah, I had a really good game. I think I scored two or three tries past him and like we won that game.

19:34And the confidence from, like I say, I was only a young kid coming into like an established team. Then week by week, I was up there five weeks in total. I think, let's say five games, I think I scored five tries. So, yeah, my confidence grew knowing that I could stay at the standard of rugby league up there and play Super League. So, like I said, I was only 18, 19 years old. And then Wiggins, Winger at the time, Amos Roberts, and Ketori's Hamstring. So then I got recalled back from Hull, and the first game was Hull-Kiara away. So I've been up there for five weeks, being loved off the fans up there.

20:18Then I was a rival coming up there. To be fair, they've always welcomed me. You know, we speak about before, football, when you chant your name at previous clubs, you get booed or whatnot. But still to this day, even when I go up to Hull KR, when my name comes on the tannoy, they all clap and cheer. So I went up there in 2010, like I say, and then that's when my career started to blossom uh started to like understand it a little bit more put myself in the right positions made the right sacrifices and then yeah it just it's just been a never-ending role so how did that uh first competition uh sorry first competition first game against Hull yeah good we won us Wigan I scored against them so yeah it was uh it was tricky you've got to say, because I've been there for five weeks, lived up there, trained with the boys, with them away from the club.

21:19And you build good friendships with lads like I say. I was only a young kid coming into a set-up where there was a few lads who were a little bit older who nurtured me a little bit. So it was tricky going up there playing against them because I've been living with them for five weeks and then to come up against them, it was pretty difficult. But like I said, there's just that mentality where I'm doing the job now for Wigan. So that shirt's on my back. I've got to play to my best ability. So like I say, as soon as that whistle blows, you flick a switch and I'm a Wigan player. Did you ever suffer with any imposter syndrome or anything like that in that first kind of season?

22:02You know, being so young, playing against men. Yeah. did you ever feel like oh am I really good enough for this or like you say that confidence from playing at Hull try uh scoring tries often yeah was that enough yeah I don't think I've ever felt that way like like we speak about like mental resilience and I think I've I'm pretty teared up with that but yeah it was just one of those where I know that so when you make it you're never going to be in the team week in week out because there's other kids coming through or you might not play the best that week and the coach might think right you we might rush you this week and try this kid but I always took each week as a as a new challenge I always wanted to better myself and I think having teammates around me who push me and like I said the work ethic that I have it just it just tied hand in hand and every week I was getting better I was growing in more confidence and yeah, the team that 2010-11 were unstoppable.

23:03So it was just one of those, it was just good to be a part of. That's sick. Let's fast forward to 2012 and 2013 because you had some good seasons here as well, right? Yeah, scoring tries. Yeah, scoring tries. How was that? Yeah, good. Like I say, so three years down the line, you're more established. You've got more a bit of a name on your back. you're more of a brand and yeah certain clubs started was you forget me if i'm wrong for them two seasons you were the top try scorer yeah within the league yeah for the comp yeah so yeah the team that was in we were so uh you know well driven well coached we knew that if something went wrong we could solve the problem uh everyone had each of us back and it showed that on the pitch like if someone missed the tackle there was someone there to clean it up so yeah the the you know the camaraderie and the resilience that we had in that team made us win finals made us win silverware and yeah it's like i said 2011 was the first uh opportunity that i got to win silverware and i won my first ever challenge cup and ever since then it was like i want to do this every year what's what's the strongest team that you played in like if you could pick a season and a team, because obviously you've been to quite a few clubs.

24:26Yeah. Probably 20. So like most of where I've won is 2013. 2013. Yeah. So we won the double, won the challenge cup and the grand final. So that's probably the strongest on paper. How did it feel to win the grand final? Mad. So as a kid, the last game of the year is the grand final. That is the like, I'm not the biggest Ruby fan. like i've people hate me because i'm actually from league um but uh i'm not the i'm not that into it but i always remember the challenge cup yeah like every year everyone would try to get tickets to go it's all that thing and everyone would be there or you'd be watching it on tv you go around someone's house and watch it and i'd be like i'm not gonna clue what's going on but uh i'm just here i'm just here yeah but i said that the the pinnacle of our season is the last game of the year which is the gf so uh yeah to you know have a first so 2010 i was an 18th man for wigan when they won it so leading into that week you know your families get curt looked after you travel in a nice bus in a suit like you just feel wanted and welcome and the dog's bollocks yeah and which it look good feel good in it like i feel like if you're looking good and and it just rolls on.

25:45So yeah, 2010 was like, say I was 18th man. So I weren't involved with the game, but I was like a reserve player if anyone got injured. So that was the first day as a silverware, like I say 2011 came, I was more established in the team, won my first ever challenge cup. And then 2012, we got beat in the semis. And then 2013, we won the challenge cup again, but then they say we won the grand final, but the grand final it was mad because we were we were getting beat at half time by Warrington and then we just turned it on in that second half so I scored in there as well so yeah it was good like I say the pinnacle of our season is the GF and you want to win to be the crown the best in the comp and yeah to be you know a part of that history of players lifting that trophy it's yeah it's very special that's sick I want to move it on to more of kind of like the training and performance side yeah um when i've ever seen any clips of you you're so powerful and athletic and fast like where's that come from have you always been a fast kid yeah like growing up um and a fast athlete or have you had to train it no yeah i think i've always been a bit nippy uh but they say coming through schools i did like indoor athletics so i was always like a bit of a fast kid what was the distance i think it was only like just where you only have the boards on edge walls and you just run bang bang like yeah so it was like five or six laps so yeah i used to smoke kids like that so i've always been quick uh but i said the power side only come because i mean i was fucking 60 70 kilo and then I started putting a bit more weight on but then carried the speed and power with that and then started training legs a little bit better like I say, me old man could start pushing me a little bit more, so we'd train at the club with Wiggum I'd been there all day and then I'd go and train with my dad at night at Pascal's gym so I was always doing it I'd say sacrifices I'd been in training all day go and see my mates, no, come on, we went to the gym so like I started building like say strength and power and like I've always every pre-season I do I'll have two weeks off and then I'll start ramping it up I'll always like do like two or three weeks working legs and then I'll do a little bit upper body would you say that you come into pre-season fitter than the other guys because like you say you're always kind of active and yeah cautious and it comes across like you love fitness.

28:28Yeah. I've seen you training and let's say you don't mind a tough session. No. You don't mind a session where you're blowing out your ass. You kind of like lean into them. Yeah. And I've had the luxury of training with that. But do you think that gives you an advantage as well? Yeah. Because you don't want to be coming into like pre-season like feeling a little bit laggy or a little bit left behind. because like I said, the speed of the game at the minute now, it's that quick that you can't, if you're a meter behind, you know, you're falling behind rapidly. So especially with my older ed, like I said, when I was like a little bit younger, 20s, early 20s, like diet wasn't an issue with me.

29:12I could eat what I wanted. Like I said, I was a fussy eater, but like I said, I could have a Mackey's like morning of a game and play the afternoon and not feel it. but when I started taking my diet more seriously working on my vitamins, my hydration and then seeing that, how it gives me a positive effect on training and feeling recovered after a game or the way that I could lift weights like I say, I know gut health and all that it's massive isn't it but I started taking that more seriously and I think that's what's probably prolonged my career because I've not really had any serious injuries.

29:51I've been blessed with looking after myself, knowing that if I do the right thing, I'll stay in the team for longer periods. So you're pretty strict now with recovery and nutrition and everything? Yeah, so I've just got an ice bath at home, so I've been doing that most nights. Cold as well, it's like four degrees, three degrees, so it's lovely. But yeah, I've started, like I said, more and more, the older I've got because I want to play till like I can I want to just prolong my career so like I say I'm doing more things away from rugby so then when I'm in training I can give it my all yeah are you focusing on sleep obviously you've got some young men so I bet sleep's quite tough having kids but my week screams at me a few often saying you need more sleep and that but yeah I try and stick to like say I've got blue light glasses after six o 'clock and I try and stick to like a bit of a schedule or routine in what I do don't have coffee after three o 'clock or like yeah so I try and work all that into trying to get a better night's sleep and being like obviously like say you're are you studying yourself and doing them things yourself are you being told that by the club no I do it all myself so the club doesn't really give any recommendations with any of that stuff yeah they'll give you like magnesium and stuff like to take and say oh this before bed but so I've been using pure sports now I've been using pure sports now for like five or six years and like the unwind that I've just relied on that for like bedtime magnesium at night like I know that it works and I say I've felt that much benefit from it like now the younger kids now are going what are you taking you like so I'll just say to try that like so i can i can see that the younger generation now are seeing that i am fit i am powerful i am 35 years old this year and i'm still one of the strongest in the gym still one of the quickest in the club one of the fittest at the club like and i'm bitching all these young kids like but how often are you training so like typical week obviously uh competing weekend yeah so if we play on a Friday, we'll be in Monday, Tuesday off Wednesday and then we have a captain's run Thursday, play Friday and then we're in Saturday for like ice bath, sauna massage and then review the game.

32:14But like Mondays we'll do like a upper body session and then it'd be defence. Tuesdays are lower. We'd always do lowers first then run. So usually Tuesday's like a tap day and then Wednesday's a day off. Complete day off? Yeah, complete day off but i say i'll go and train still uh and just do something like rehab on my knee or rehab on my ankle like something that's just more specific for me so just like injury prevention yeah just even if it's like i've been doing a lot of thinner treatment so like even if it's just going to the ladies house and sitting on the machine for an hour it's just it's just better in me so yeah i try and i try and make that day work and then i can plan them for the weekend the headlight i can make sure that i'm i've got the right supplements in if i need to go nip out anywhere because i hate going to the draw and thinking i've not got it in i've got a good shot now and then so i like to plan my week with that so i'm quite regimented and scheduled with what i do i think i'm a bit more annoying to zoe than than she makes out but yeah if it's there and it's ready i feel like i'm more at ease with my preparation do you think the routine is like a key to your success like being retained and I think there's an interesting fact that you've not moved out of Charlie yeah for the entire time so wherever you played yeah going back to your career did you make a switch over to Rugby Union?

33:42yeah so 2016 so I was I was in talks with an NRL team South Sydney Rabbit Oars and I was on about going over there playing but then we found out that Zoe was pregnant so I didn't really want to move me and Zoe across the other side of the world and our parents miss out on their grandkid growing up so yeah the only other option was to go and play Rugby Union, I didn't want to play Rugby League for anyone else about Wigan because they give me the my image in Rugby League so I didn't want to go against them so yeah Rugby Union was the call so I had a few interviews with a few clubs and then went to sale and it just felt right when I walked in there they had like welcome Josh Charlie on the board and like you know you just feel like you're a little bit at home there was a few rugby league ex-players who was coaching staff at sale so that was like another box ticker for me because it just i had some familiar faces there so yeah i went and spent 18 months at sale and uh yeah i played a few games not not as many as i liked but you know i i sunk my teeth into the challenges that i got put in front of me but yeah it was just one it was a short-lived career though what was the switch like how different is it yeah massive massive i was so like the first training session so rubber league you make a tackle you run back 10 meters i kept doing it so i'd get up and you only take one step back you only need to be a meter behind the rock i was still tracking back i was like get back there like josh move up so like second nature i was still you know like duck to walk with rugby league i was still doing them traits but then it was just understanding the rulings and because it's totally different rules to league and it was just getting my head around how they play and like with a rugby league player if I see space you want the ball where in rugby union if you see space and then you get tackled and turned over you've lost possession of the ball so it was like it was my I couldn't get my head around if I was against you and I knew I could burn you why would you not give me the ball but then on their side they was like but yeah like say if you get tackled and they get over the top of you and take the ball off you we've lost possession of the ball so it was all about like territory and possession where in rugby league it's all about fast and making breaks but yeah it was difficult like just to get your head around there's that much space but why are we not getting the ball Would you say that you require a little bit more fitness for rugby league?

36:11Yeah yeah it was like we did like tests at sale and there was over like 50 meters where at rugby league we're doing mas over like 95 meters like and it's quick like 15 on 15 off like in rugby union we were we played rugby league for fitness though so like i would cruise in a little bit it was good but no we did a lot at sale it was a lot differently it was all like more explosive power stuff because like if you're rucking or if you get caught in a ruck or if you need to go into scrum you need to be able to you know stay under a lot of uh you know stress for a long period of time so yeah there's a lot of explosive stuff there but like i said rugby league is a lot quicker we do do we do do like a more you know plyometric stuff but yeah sale was a lot differently to our leaguers it's interesting i uh i always look back at kind of like rugby even like when I used to do a little bit for school back in the day and stuff like that but like it comes across as like probably like one of the first forms of like hybrid training because like you say you've got to be fit you've got to be strong uh you've got to enjoy 80 minutes like it's it's tough and like you say getting back that 10 meters every fucking time like like you've got to do a lot of running I don't know what you cover in a game but it must be it must be quite a lot like i think i think we cover around like eight to 12k like backs and four because forwards get spells like they'll not cover as much but they'll be under more high stress because they're in the middle of the field teams always tack down the middle then shift like so they'll be under more stress than us where we can just keep like i say we're tracking a lot more than they're under more fatigue than us so how did you like say train for this was it just always in your nature to be fast strong and fit yeah i think if you've got all them aspects in in your locker i think you can't go wrong really so like say i did work on my speed a lot uh when i could start lifting weights i started you know pushing myself a little bit more to you know to get bigger and better and stronger so yeah it was it was always an ambition of mine to keep growing i didn't want to get to a certain point and think right i'm done here like i've always wanted to push so they still to this day mate i'm still when we're squatting in the gym i'm still trying to bang that extra 10 20 kilo on there when bars bending like mad and lads are trying to hold the plates on it's just one of those where it's still ingrained in me to better myself so so that's in the gym and then outside the gym like fitness what are typical tests that you like to test tv yourself with or you get given a pre-season like is it like a 12 minute run cooper test so we do like a bronco test so it's like 20 40 60 back five times or we do uh 1200 meters so like if you get it under like four and a half minutes it's good like anything over five minutes that's that's when you start getting looked at so we've got we've got a really fit team at our club we've won at lads he's a ex sprinter i think he did it in three minutes fastest i've ever seen had done three minutes 48 i think he was like he's an absolute athlete but uh yeah all lads were getting it around four minutes four and a half minutes so we are we have got a fit team like i say the way that the game's changing you need to be fit if you're not fit you you are getting left behind yeah no it is it is very interesting because like when i was growing up like people were like oh it's pointless doing distance running and being in the gym or like they're just both counteract each other so much um that you're kind of just wasting your time whereas like i assume you went into the gym sure like just do your job in the gym then do the job on the field yeah get fit and you wasn't like bothered about being too big because then or does that come into it a little bit i don't know no so like i owe my weight around 102 105 kilo at the minute what would you say have you done a 5k or anything recently not recently no but like in lockdown you couldn't i was yeah i was getting him in like 18 minutes 18 minutes 102 kg 18 minutes that's some going yeah so i'm moving but now okay i've got bad knees and i've not to be fair i've not run a 5, 10k for ages.

40:44It is different fitness though completely. Yeah. I'll get a K in and I'm like, why have I started this? But then you'll fly through again. But then, yes, as soon as I get a ball in my hand, I need to make a break. Is it the adrenaline, do you think, as well? Of having that ball. One, it's a distraction because you're not focusing on a task. You're just like, well, the task is get that ball to that line. Yeah. um or tackle that person yeah do you think that it's kind of like life or death kind of thing in it when you're in a game yeah it's like say it's that mentality of knowing that you want to give your all the opposite person against you is going to try and set your head off or you're going to try and set their head off so it it's uh yeah it is challenging but like say you've got to be in the right frame of mind to do the right the right job yeah have you um so after let's go back to uh your kind of like timeline so after uh playing union for a bit yeah what did you do after that why did you make the transition back to rugby league because i wasn't playing uh consistently rugby union i felt like i was depreciating as a rugby league player like i've been out of the game for 18 months and then you think oh am i getting spoke about am i not like could i go back into rugby league like is it going to be difficult so i just had a conversation with my agent at the time and uh i said like let's have a feel let's see if there's any interest from any league clubs.

42:11And Lee came in and Warrington came in because Lee was in the championship. I didn't want to drop down to championship. I wanted to stay because I had this record in my mind and just getting back into where I left. So yeah, I signed up Warrington for a 10-3 year deal at first. And then, yeah, I really enjoyed it. I say I come into the squad like halfway through the year. they had a winger who had just got injured the week I signed so lucky for me I got put straight back in so it was a bit of a blessing in disguise really because I wanted to prove that I was still capable of doing what I could do in the league even though I had a crack like I said I was away for 18 months and I put a bit of size and I come back at like 108 kilo but I was solid so i had to strip down a little bit and yeah i think i got down to like 100 kilo in three four weeks like i i told it right down yeah how did you do that 2200 calories a day like deficit like mad and just fluid i was drinking fucking six liters of water and like mate it was mad but it felt good at the same time even though it was hard like because I've got a real bad sweet tooth light and biscuits are my downfall.

43:36What biscuit of choice? Obnob. Chocolate Obnob, mate. I could go through packs and packs of it. Chocolate Obnob. But yeah, so having that stubbornness to try and lose weight, to try and get back fitter, because I felt like all I was doing at SAIL, I was lifting weights, doing fitness, not playing. So it was like repeat week in, week out. and it was just it was just dead repetitive so you know i say i spoke to my agent said like have a feeler see what's out there and because i've just been like smashing the gym like benching big squatting big like i was massive but yeah so coming back into a believe because it's a lot quicker game i needed to strip that down quick yeah interesting and how long did you actually spend at warrington in the end i was there five years uh like the last year turned a little bit sour a new coach came in uh and didn't really see eye to eye with me because was getting actual diagnosed with autism at the time so the days that i was thinking that i was playing first team that i got dropped for and then said i was in the day after where we booked in meetings with like his san tutor and and uh you know the health care visitor so it just didn't see eye to eye i mean It made my last career a little bit.

44:57It put me on a bit of a back burner. I didn't want to do it anymore. I fell out of love with the game. As I say, having family, family comes first and going through that difficult stage with Axel and understanding how our life has to change to go into his world, not him bringing into ours. So, yeah, it was a difficult period of my playing career because I was getting messed around. I was getting told to do things that I weren't allowed to do. I was getting told to go training there and I weren't sure to train with them. And it was just like a bit of a mindfuck, basically, for them to probably think, you know, he'll jack.

45:36Like, we'll save money. But like I said, that mental resilience that I've got, I just turned up with a smile on my face, got it done. If I needed to train, I trained. If I didn't, I was like, yep, sweet, I'll get home. That happened for like six weeks. and then it got to a point where I just thought I'm done. Like I'm sick of going in, leaving the house at six in the morning, getting home for like two o 'clock, going back out of the house at five to train with the reserves. I was like missing family time. I was missing time spending with my kids and my wife and I was like, yeah, I'm done here.

46:11Like just the love of the, you know, when you have like a, when you feel like the candle light's just gone and that's when it felt like I felt like someone blown it out and I was just a shell of myself. So then I spoke to a real close mate of mine, Sam Tonkins, who was a Catalan at the time. So I come up with Sam through Wigan and I play with England with him and we're best mates. I speak to him probably more than I speak to Zoe. So he just said, Sam, I'm done. And he was like, mate, you're not done. You're 20-odd flight. You've still got this ahead of you. and then yeah just having conversations with people who are like minded like you know what you're like and who are like strong willed it just said like I had opportunities then to go down to Lee so Lee came in for me he was in the championship I was in Super League and then I just said to my agent yeah let's do it let's get me out of this club let me just see if I can you know relight that candle so went to Lee that was that was I think I was April again, 2022.

47:20And then the conversations that I had with the coach and Derek and the CEO at the time was like, I don't want to come in thinking because I'm from Super League, I'm better than the club, better than the players that you've got. I want to learn respect. I want to help. And the first eight weeks there, I was not mentoring, but I was helping the players out who were there and when they got into big games, how to win them. so yeah it was good like I said the buzz came back for rugby again and the lads that we had at the time were a good group of lads the way that the club were growing like I said Lee have always been up and down in Super League over the years but in the championship we were tonking teams like 90, 100 nil each week like we were so dominant and then yeah Lee won the playoffs to to get up into Super League so signed a new deal for 2023 into Super League and then yeah I think that was probably one of the like the standout moments in my career because 18 months prior to that I were done with the sport I didn't want anything to do with the league and then having that belief with not just my inner self like you say I doubted myself a little bit because I felt I love with the game, but then buying into the way that the club were growing and I wanted to be a part of the growth of the club.

48:48And yeah, we went on to do some good things and I made the dream team 10 years. Yeah, so it was 2013, the last time I was in it, and 2023 came and I'm back in the dream team, scored 30 odd tries. It was just a really standout moment in my career. And then I say we won the Challenge Cup as well, so Lee had not won it for I think it was 70 or 50 odd years, 70 years and that's probably like the best moment that we've, in my career that getting on the bus at Worsley Marriott driving into Lee I reckon there was about 100 ,000 people on the course going into the town centre like it were unbelievable I was actually there for that See me from the bus Yeah, I was there, I think I asked Lee at the time I think I was living, so I know it drove through Astley.

49:42Yeah. But it was crazy. That's the best probably homecoming celebration that I've ever been a part of. Yeah, sick. So would you say you was kind of at the lowest point of your career? Yeah. 18 months before. Yeah. And then that was the highest point. Would you say that? Yeah. It's like you say, because you don't know what's around the corner. Like you say, I fell in love with the game. I didn't want to be a part of it. I wanted to be there for my family. but realistically rugby is my job that's my income so then it was one of those like what do what do you do but yeah it was it was very a low point like I say I'm not really I don't really dwell on being sad or low but that was one of those where it didn't feel normal for me so yeah it was it was a tough decision and a tough period of my career but you know things happen for a reason and and the way that i got treated led me into lee and then like i say it's just been you know uphill climb from there that's class uh and now obviously still playing for lee yeah you enjoying it i love it mate yeah i love the way that so like the way that the club's rebranded from centurion to leopard uh the way that the town's thriving off the the club uh we had like 3 ,000 members 2023 I think we're up to nearly 8 ,000 members now so like the town and the club is thriving that much it's just good to be a part of and like I said there were nearly 9 ,000 fans there on Friday night it's it is a big heartbeat of the town I think the leopard's den so it's good to be a part of I'm I'm liking the way that the club's growing and the team's starting to put a few wins together now and the way that we're playing I think we're a threat to, I think every other Super League club now will look at Lee and think, these are, you know, starting to be the real deal.

51:37That is good because I remember like when they were in the championship and like the struggle of getting into the Super League. Was it hard to kind of get in? I heard there was a point of time where like the qualifying to get into the Super League was like difficult. Yeah, so there's like a company called IMG came in and you had to have like certain points. so you had to have like an academy reserve, you had to have right social media, like you had to tick a load of boxes to get like these allocated points and then they put you in a better suit to think, right, Wigan are at, I think it was like a 20, so like Wigan are at a 20, Lear are at 11, so you need X, Y, Z to get you to a 15, which will make you...

52:14So it wasn't even based on like just wins or like how you were in the league? No, so yeah, so they come in and like just like examined every club. So it's good, like I say, so when I was coming through at Wigan, you had an academy, you had a reserves. And then a few years, probably about 10 years ago, they got rid of all that. And the development of the kids now are far from when we was coming up. So they've just started now. I know Lee have just started to pay some young kids coming through, which a lot of clubs now, like your Wigan Saints, Leeds, who have got that development already set up, they've been doing that for years.

52:50So now Lee are more established now as a Super League club. but it needs to be pushed for the next generation of league players to come through. Yeah, so would you say that the standard is getting better and better or do you think there was like a drop-off when that wasn't happening? Yeah, I think it definitely dropped off because like you say, you could have so many first-team players drop down into reserves to play week in, week out. When that got cancelled, I think it was only like three or four games through the year for them. So it's hard. If you're not playing first-team, you're not really playing at all.

53:21So, yeah, now that they've started to get that infrastructure back and there's more competition now for the academy, scholarship reserves, there's more and more kids now, like I said, at each club who are pushing for first team spots. So it's good for the game. Like I said, we need more British homegrown players playing it because when we come up against the Australians, you know, they're like way ahead at the minute. But if we can keep growing the game as we're doing it, it should start turning to a healthy competition. How was it playing for your country? Loved it, loved it. Like I say, it's always like an iconic moment, I think.

54:01Like you want to wear your country shirt on your back, you want to play for your country and singing a national anthem, you know, you get goosebumps. But the team, when we was like, we were young, we were energetic, we were feisty, like, and we did some damage. Like a lot of teams would play against, like the Aussies were a bit older, Kiwis were a little bit older so we was a young team coming through thriving and yeah we started to get some results World Cup class, we were away for like seven weeks in Australia so you're away from your family but you're with your mates doing things that you love and then you had a lot of downtime where we was on like Bondi, Goodyear Surfers Paradise we got about so when you're with, like I said, your country and putting that jersey on, it was a magical feeling.

54:54That is insane. So obviously you come across as super humble, and obviously that's probably a little bit of your background, but have you worked outside of rugby at all? Have you ever had any jobs or anything? Yeah, so when I was at Wigan, we had to get a trade. So you had to get a trade? Yeah, to fall back home. so I my great grandfather was like a master brickie from Charlie built loads of mills and that so I chose bricklaying uh always done it so when I signed at sale my personal sponsor was a building contractor so on my days off at sale I used to go work for Colin uh and I still do it to this day yeah yeah any days off if I'm not if I'm not feeling too sore or I'll go in and work because I don't want to be one of those players who get to the end of my career like my pay packet's come down now because I'm a bit older and the wages start depreciating so I don't want to be one of those players who gets to like the end of the career and go oh fuck what have I got what can I turn my hand to now where I've got you know I've got my MVQ in brick lane I've been working 11 years with Colin on and off I always do pre-season like I'll train so a couple of pre-seasons ago I'm training at 3am going to work going home it was just one of those where I was getting my training done but still learning outside of the game so yeah I used to come down here and help the boys at rep after training and Black Friday sales just yeah it was good like I say it gets you away from like I say because rugby league is so intense and then when we used to come around here like you say we were it was you did a little bit work for represent yeah like back in the day when there was not many staff like you say there's that many staff here i don't know how many is here so but yeah when it was like the originals mike george steph chris ashy like there's only a handful of us in tyaz james we used to have a right good crack in here like we used to go and get nando's bring nando's here watch black friday on the screen and go out picking orders it was good like I say because I've my life so intense and then coming in and watching these boys do their thing where I could you know just bring a bit of joy to the to the stressful lives but yeah I've done a fair few trips with these boys.

57:25Oh that's class that's um it's it's so good that like you say you you're keeping your hand in all the things as well yeah um so like when time does come to hang up your boots you've you've got something there but uh that's crazy I didn't know about the bricklaying thing yeah yeah i still do it now like my mate texted last night saying oh i've got uh these holes that i need patching in so i'll do that next week so if anyone's in like the uh the lee wigan bolton area charlie allen's extensions yeah shout out to josh josh coming around your house on his day off it's like i say it's not just it's for the brain as well like you're tasked with different scenarios on the site like it could be a lintel that needs putting in but you can't put it in because you need to do this so how are you going to do it like it's just good for the brink say i like to challenge myself like i said before i like to assess it and then go to it so we've having like the stressful life and the intense life of rugby like when i put my work boots on and put my ivies on like it just it's another uh flick to switch that i can just turn into the builder not the rubber player or i say i think i'm i have three different lives i'm like the dad the rugby player and the husband like and then when you are driving home from rugby i flick the switch off from rugby into a dad and then when the kids go to bed then i'm i flick the switch off and there's like certain ways that I like channel my energy through the day so yeah I'm I said with me doing other things outside of rugby it just keeps my brain healthy yeah you obviously you come across as a very family man kind of guy um what why is that is that have you always just been like that no I say I've only got I feel like you've got to be like that obviously when you do have a family that's the only right way to be but yeah I think in rugby league you have kids younger because you've got that security in your contract so like when you're younger you sign five year deals like so you know you've got security for five years and like we had Arlo at 26 so I was still young but yeah it's just one of those where we thought you know what We might as well have kids now.

59:51I don't want to be an old dad. And, yeah, I love it. Like, I can't see myself without kids. Like, the way I say it, my life's hectic as it is. And we've got an SCN child who's, you know, even crazier. Arlo's, like, full on with rugby football. So, yeah, our life's mad. And, like I say, we're adding another two legs into the family. So, it's going to be a chaos house. but I couldn't see myself not doing it. No, that's amazing. Like I say, it gives you something else to look forward to. Whenever I see you, you're always loving it anyway. I wouldn't even think you as a rugby player, whereas you're either walking up Rivington or doing something with the kids all the time.

1:00:39It's crazy that you have that much energy. Do you think you've always just been like that? Yeah, I've always had it. You even speak to a few other boys here. like I was always the life and soul of everyone around here. These lot will be meetings and I'll just be screaming me off, picking orders and I'd always bring the energy. I'm still to this day at the club. I'm always dicking around or like. Do you think you've got to be like that? Do you think you need someone within the team and are you that person in the team that is the life and soul of the party, should we say? Yeah. You've got to be like, say I'm one of the oldest, but I still take the piss out of all the young boys.

1:01:13But it's like you've got to have that drive. And it just breaks your day up as well. You can't be so serious through the day where you're that focused. You get fatigued easy. You need someone in camp to break the ice or dick around, cut someone's shirt. Have you got any stories? When I went to Sale, Tom and Ben Currie, my second cousins, they'd just been picked for England. So I went in, Tom had got his nice suit up on his peg and I cut his sleeves off his shirt like Fred Flintstone. And he was like, oh my God, that's a TM Lewin shirt. I was like, fuck off, it's only 70 quid shirt. So he had to wear his shirt and then put like a jumper over it.

1:02:01So yeah, no one could handle me because I say I've come from Rugby League where everything was mad. Cars were getting moved like five, six mile away. people are like nicking all your clothes is it is it ruthless it was yeah but like when i started doing that rugby union you could tell that they'd never seen it before right so the culture's just culture's totally different it's always been like you know talked about that like rugby league especially changing rooms uh just something else yeah the mad like the conversations that we have like if anyone got hold of them like you'd be cancelled yeah but like i don't think it's ever changed like every club i've been out over the years is the same i think it's just within the industry it's just we're just a wild bunch of men full of testosterone ripping shit out of each other like it's just yeah it's just good and exciting it's good that is good what do you uh what do you do for like your downtime have you got any hobbies or anything yeah i do a lot of fishing yeah a lot of fishing uh the minute i've just ripped out a trailer i'm doing a coffee cart oh yeah yeah so i'm gonna start a barista course soon come on i mean i love coffee like like i say i've been trying to master my art for fucking months are you good with the coffee art it and this it's all about the milk all about okay well like how throffy it is yeah and how deep to put the uh what's it called no little stick thing that froths it oh yeah stem thing so yeah but no i'm uh i'm looking forward to it like i say it's another another thing that i could be working on away from rugby uh i want to try and get it at games uh i want to try and get it around charlie and and other places and like i say if it's just i love coffee i think a lot of rugby lads are into coffee let's say we've got a lot of downtime from finishing training we might have like an hour in between splits between weights and field so I'll have to go and get a coffee like it's just embedded in us like we all drink coffee so yeah I turned into a bit of a coffee snob like not drinking Costa not drinking Starbucks because I didn't like the way it tasted and then I was like I'd rather met my own so what you're doing then what are you saying are you going into Lee you're taking your own kind of like coffee with you yeah making your own like drip coffee or whatever yeah yeah like I say I'm a snob or I make it at home and drink it driving in yeah you're making it for other lads as well or just yourself no enough they can just have Kenco then boys no I look forward to seeing that to be fair so that's something that you kind of plan for after yeah like I say fishing's my down yeah do you go on your own yeah I go on my own or I go I take Arlo sometimes or I'll go with another player from another club who's into fishing as well so you know we both played at Wigan together.

1:04:57I left Warrington East, I'm for Warrington. So our paths cross. So like my days off aren't like his. So we very rarely fish with each other at the minute, but we fish on the same syndicate lake. We're both on the same lake. So like we'll cross paths, but yeah, I love fishing. I love, like I say, I love being up Rivie. Like so lucky to have that on our doorstep, you know, just going up there for, even if it's just clear your head, like we've had a tough day kids have been carnage five minute walk up there you know it just changes everything so yeah I like being outdoorsy like I say I'm a I think yeah it's just fishing outdoors this coffee like a bit of a coffee tart like I want to perfect the right coffee and yeah just spending a lot of not probably alone time because like I say I'm in a group of 40 men else is carnage i do like having my time alone i think that quiet times is good for me if you get me like say if i go fishing even if it's just for an overnighter quick overnighter on my own i turn my phone off like there's no explain what's an overnighter so if i go stay at the lake overnight oh right okay so you're a serious fisherman yeah yeah Yeah, I've got the...

1:06:23So you've got like... Is it called a bivy or something? Yeah, I've got a bivy. I've got everything. Like, my garage is like a fucking tackle shop. I've got everything. Love that. What, are you fishing on, like, maggots? No, I fish boilies. What's a boilie? Like a high-proteined circle ball. Are they tasty? Yeah, I can actually try it. I should have brought some. Have you actually... Do you actually eat your fishing bait? Yeah. Yeah? What is it? It's just a boil. So the ones I've got in the car is krill, so it's like fishy. You're mad. But no, yeah, I wouldn't... I'd try it anyway. I'd put it out in my mouth.

1:07:06I don't want to know what you put in your mouth, dude. But no, yeah, I'm passionate about fishing. It's like my downtime. Yeah. I want to finish with a couple just like quickfire questions. first one being if you had to do another sport that wasn't rugby what would it be I'm going to take fishing away as well actually you can't be a professional fisherman I'd like to do something like winter Olympics like snowboarding or something would you even though we were saying before that in your contract you can't do it yeah but if I'm not rugby league player yeah yeah true yeah have you learned how to snowboard no but I'll give it a go.

1:07:53To be fair, I've skied a couple of times and it's like one of the best feelings ever. Yeah. Like you say, you feel like going for a walk up Rivington is like a breath of fresh air. Yeah. And like away from the kids or whatever, like being at the top of a mountain. Yeah, coming down. There's nothing better. Yeah, I do like seeing them like skiing holiday trips. Like I do want to go on one when I retire. Yeah. Can't do it at the minute because I can't even go chill factor and go down them slopes. Do you cook? Not really, no. So Zoe does all the cooking? Zoe does all the cooking, yeah. Okay, if you was to cook, if you was cooking for me and Tom, what would your perfect meal be?

1:08:37What would you cook us to impress? Oh, to impress? It'd be a steak on the barbie. Steak on the barbie. I can agree with that. That's good. That's a good shout. Any sides? I love corn on the cob yeah yeah that's easy to do as that ooh yeah I'm talking quite basic but it's all about seasonings and that innit okay to be fair with this barbecue that I've got they sent me loads so what barbecue have you got I've got a Tragar ooh nice have you with the seasoning for steak what are you seasoning your steak with so they've got like a beef rub at the minute it's like a ah so it's like a pre-done one yeah so I let it uh season it and then a few minutes on the barbie it's done boom medium rare rare me rare i like it buddy yeah what are you uh medium rare medium medium rare to medium probably yeah yeah yeah no i like the blood i like it's a little bit cold inside yeah that that's what puts me off yeah i think uh like when you get a steak and it's cold on the inside i'm like oh that's just like yeah cold swallowing it yeah but like uh i get on with like um state town stuff yeah that's all right when it's meant to be cold but when it's meant to be warm and it's not warm like that's when i'm like oh yeah all right so that's it have you have you do you go to bistec much yeah yeah have you been recently uh like i think i went like a month back yeah so for anyone listening bistec is like uh the best steak place near us yeah it's class uh it's great like a a family run place and i don't understand how cheap it is for what you get yeah you can get like a full-on kilogram seabon steak for like 50 pounds yeah it's crazy so uh it's good though it is good um okay next one if you could only run or lift for the rest of your life what you're doing run run are you yeah yeah that surprised me without with how big you are as well i thought you'd be right in that gym especially with like you say with your upbringing being in a bodybuilding gym yeah i think because you're moving in your outdoors like being stuck in a gym i think you can run anywhere can't you yeah lifting weights if you're stuck in four walls on a roof like that'll probably drive me insane so running yeah you can still build muscle running can't you and yeah running uphill maybe doing some push-ups stopping falling over pushing yourself up yeah maybe I'd run pull up some trees yeah I'd run if you could live anywhere in the world where would you live Charlie Charlie yeah what is it about Charlie just my own town I don't I love it like I say I've never left every club I've been at I've stayed local what do you think about like Bookshore Village yeah yeah nice right there because that's a new like development right outside of Charlie yeah so yeah it's got a lot of things on there like I say there's gyms there's restaurants there's everything on there it's like a bit like Sim City at the minute like there's new developments plopping up everywhere so so you wouldn't like go to Australia somewhere I would I would do yeah I'd live I'd be in Cudgy yeah I love Cudgy when I were there I loved Melbourne to be fair but then I did that did you we when we went like we just thought it was like just a slightly sunnier Manchester.

1:12:02Did you? Yeah, it is like, it's like a London, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But a little bit cleaner. Yeah, I did like them. To be fair, I loved Auckland. New Zealand was, man. And that's like more English as well. More English people over there. Do you prefer New Zealand over Australia? No, I think Aussie for the beaches and the lifestyles. Even though, like I say, it's only a three-hour flame journey. but yeah when we spent about five weeks in Kudji and that was unbelievable. Last one. Yep. When you retire, obviously you want to prolong your career as much as possible. When you retire, what are you going to do like full time?

1:12:48Like what could you see yourself doing? Like would it be this coffee thing and like making a business out of that or would it be just Brit Lane full time? Yeah, I don't know. I've got them to fall back on. I'd like... Or is there something else? Yeah, I'd like to look after the younger generation coming through with not player development, but player management role type. So when I was coming up, you got your first contract, I was seeing kids going out buying the first car at 19, spunking 20 grand on a car and then not getting enough money to put fuel in it. So I don't think there's a lot of guidance now in professional sport.

1:13:27But I think it's the same in football as well. I've heard a lot of young kids getting 50, 60 grand a week and losing it all. I think from my knowledge of being that younger kid who just leave my mates, my bank card on the night out, you spend whatever you want, I was that bloke. So would you like that? Literally, tonight's on me, lads. Yeah. Looking back now, did people take advantage? no so like I had a close like all my charlamers are close knit like and they wouldn't take the piss like even though if one of them give me their card I'd take the piss like but no but yeah I was I think that needs to be in the game a little bit more I think a lot of young kids who who have probably not been on the first team deal then start getting 12 grand 20 grand like and it starts building up.

1:14:21Just being like a mentor and going, right, put your money in this, this and this, save this amount, this amount, and just distribute your money. And then in the longer run, if you come to retire and you get injured, you can't play again or you don't want to play again, you've always got that background of money that has been doing the work for you behind the scenes. So, yeah, I don't like to say I've not come across anyone who does that in the game. So if I can be the first. That would be interesting. Speaking on that, if we could give like three pieces of advice for someone that is coming up in the rugby scene, that being one, money management, kind of like being wise, what would the other two be?

1:15:13Thick-skinned. You're going to take a lot of criticism. you're gonna is that from team players is that from coaches or is that from like fans yeah like I've had death threats I've had everything well how do you receive a death threat like you personally like how have you received them like just Twitter yeah Twitter Instagram like I have one kid I've actually met him met him in Warrington what for like a scrap or like no I got him into the stadium so the like the police were involved the RF Rubble League were involved it was all like over a table camera were there he was there I was on the side and I I was that boiling I just wanted to flog him there then but I couldn't because police were there and you're getting filmed but yeah he said like oh you and your family dying your caravan like everyone calls me a gypsy like just because I used to have curly hair and like full of tattoos so that that that's gone on for years like all fans still to this day I still get called it like I'll be walking down the street in like Warrington or we're going to go, John, you're gypo.

1:16:17Like, I'm 34 years old walking with my son. You are the furthest from a gypo that I've ever seen. Yeah, that's what I mean. Especially when you're with your family. Yeah, you get targeted a lot, but like I say, you've got to be thick skin to handle. So what do you do now? You get that comment from across the street or whatever. You're just laughing it off. Yeah, it's funny. It's not going to affect me, is it? Call me what you want. like I don't actually care like I've had people screaming in my face and like it doesn't bother me like yeah I just feel like you're kind of like numb to that kind of shit now yeah you just get you just get just embedded in you like you can't react because that's what they want they want a reaction from you so you just laugh it off walk it off like that pees them off more because they've not got a reaction off you but like I said with that death wreck because it was on Twitter all fans seen it and they started getting retweeted and this young kid, bless him, was only young.

1:17:16I think he was only like 19, 20. Like, I just wrote on it saying, have you ever heard of, like, Blueprint? Like, he said that's out there now for the rest of your life. As soon as you Google his name, it come up, that comment. So then, bless him, he didn't have a Scooby-Doo. Like, he come from a rich family in Grappanol, like, nice part of Warrington. Yeah, it was just one of those where I had to make, something of it just to prove a point but yeah like say being thick-skinned is it's part of i think any any industry like i bet you get shit on doing yeah do you know what i mean well i was gonna ask you like have you ever been given shit online by someone and then in person like they're completely different yeah i've i've seen fans slag me off and then after a game they're like well done charlie well done mate like i'm like last week you were actually slagging me off like and now you're patting me on the back.

1:18:14They won't say it to your face. It's all keyboard. Yeah. Like I say, you're easy gettable on social media with the likes of... Well, like you said, there's no consequences most of the time. It's kind of good that you made consequences for that guy because that just shows that you can't just get away with everything. No, you can't. But like I said, we get it on YouTube the most because you can be anonymous on YouTube. Yeah. So people will say whatever they think. They obviously think it's funny. They kind of comment something negative to try and get as many likes as possible. Yeah, that's what it is.

1:18:51It's just people trying to get a reaction. But when you actually think about it, you think how sad their life must be if they're getting dopamine off getting likes on a comment. Yeah. Why are you even commenting on stuff? Why are they wasting time trying to get in your head? Yeah. See, that's what I don't get. but it's mad okay so be sensible with your money yeah thick-skinned last one uh mindset you need the right mindset to get through everything like say i could have been 13 years old and packed in the sport i think because i had the right mindset the right attitude to better myself and think, right, I'm going to prove you all wrong.

1:19:40I think having them, because like I say, it's only a short career lived and you get your ups and downs. You're going to get people slagging you off or you've got to be in the right frame of mind to just brush them aside and carry on. Yeah, and believe in yourself. Yeah, I think you have to. I still believe that I'm one of the best wingers out there and I believe that if I'm carrying the ball that I'm that strong that no one can tackle me. You still go over that self-discipline and self-belief. And then last thing, has the landscape of rugby league changed over the years? And where I'm getting at that is when you first started the sport, was it completely different now in terms of what you did outside?

1:20:31like did you after every game i assume it was a huge drinking culture yeah is it still like that not really no so we'll have like a certain date set for where we'll have like a team drink uh like i say one was coming through at wigan we'd finish a game then we'd drive up to like a pub in wigan called bo's head and then we're drinking there then go straight to training after that but like now because the game's speeding up you can't you can't do that it soon catches up with you so yeah we'll have certain dates in the calendar we'll go right we'll have a team feed here with a few beers or we'll go on the piss here like it's just settling you know that lads aren't going to go after a game and go should we go and have a few beers like she's not like that anymore you're getting a protein shake instead yeah but no like say you're easy gettable someone takes a picture of you puts it on Twitter you found like there's that much like say evidence of people knowing where you are so you can't even get up to trouble you can't even go that's why I got Rimmington Brewing just put a balaclava on

1:21:36I love that I love that thank you for today Josh thanks for having me no I really appreciate it and best of luck one with the the rest of the season but two with what's coming for you because like you say I think there's a there's a bright future with the record living over you but also after your career and hopefully we can chat again yeah definitely, thanks for having me mate thank you mate