The Brutal Reality of Chasing an Olympic Dream | Stuart Stokes | Ep 63

0:00Stuart Stokes, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, mate. Good to see you. For the people that may not know who you are, would you just be able to explain? I'll start with husband, dad of two. You've been made to say that. But also Olympic athlete from London 2012, runner, a couple of Commonwealth Games, World Cups, European Cups. um yeah spent best part of 20 years of my life um you know striving to be at elite level um and you know got lucky a few years and made a few championships along the way mainly in the steeple chase 3 000 meter steeple chase yeah um it was an event that early on in my life if i was i was very honest with myself and i i was reasonably good at 1500 but probably was not going to make world-class same with the 5k pretty good but probably not going to make world-class and it was kind of like if i'm going to make championships i need to adapt and and the steeplechase was kind of something in the middle which um required other elements than just running um and yeah so i threw myself wholeheartedly into that so you're bolton based that's right yeah orage uh Born and bred in Bolton, but now I live in Horwich.

1:18Yeah. Yeah. So local legend. Um, no, we've, we actually first, uh, met, came across you. I was training at the track and you was there in the most professional coaching gear I've ever seen. You was there in like a track suit. You had a stopwatch, you had a whistle, uh, and you was coaching your son and a couple of his friends. I think he was on like school holidays. And I remember like you, you, everything was just so regimented they'd start off and I think you were doing 400 meter repeats and they'd set off you start timing them you'd be counting them down when they hit the 200 mark there'd be a whistle to make sure that they know that they're on track and then uh when they back around and then they'd be running so fast so much faster than I was and I was just going uh training for high rocks at the time I think it's probably about two years ago uh and I was just I don't know what I was doing but I was just so much slower and I was in awe of these lads I think I think your lads at the time were like, um, like this group that you was training was around like 15.

2:17That's correct. Yeah. Yeah. At the time. And I remember you were there and your parents were there. Yeah. My mom and dad are quite fanatical, still are. Yeah. So everyone came watching this session, all the full family came watching this session. Yeah. It was probably a key session. Whenever it's a key session, my mom and dad show up. Um, but that way you've just described, you know, that's probably partly the teacher in me with the whistle and yeah um but partly i'm i'm you know if i'm if i'm investing my time in a in a few of the lads who were training then it's got to be right and it's got to be done properly um and there's kind of expectation that um this is how we do things and even at that age it's good to be start with that professionalism um and regimented otherwise you know, the young lads, you were right in saying, they're probably about 14, 15.

3:08They'd just been mucking around and like, you know, and that sort of thing and chatting and bantering, which they do. But yeah, once the session starts, very regimented. They knew the times, they knew the split times, which is what obviously what you witnessed. And it's, you know, it's been, it was been good working with my son and good guiding some of the other lads in the Horwich area. And again, it was great meeting you. obviously because they're younger than me I'm 50 this year so I miss out on social media stuff they all knew who you were so they were kind of in awe of you as well mate but before this time I hadn't really I've only been a fan of track probably a couple of years not even that I'd probably say I got into it this last year before that I ran at an athletics club when I was younger but I never really paid attention to say the Olympics or anything like that So when I knew who you was by, you know, having a conversation with you that day, I then went back and spoke to a couple of guys that I run with.

4:10And they were like, yeah, Stu, who's in the Olympics 2012. So did a bit of like reading up on you. And then I realized who I'd bumped into. And then I think you actually offered to come and do a session. You said we do sessions here every Thursday. Thursday uh so I just I just wrote up to one of your sessions and at the time I didn't really have any training partners and it was I did feel a little bit weird um a little bit less weird that I knew that you was coaching but coming down to a track session with a lot of 15 year olds like is it you know when I'm obviously yeah yeah quick because there's no one there was no one as quick like running um uh especially in Horwich like you've seen the the abilities of like Horwich areas like it's not really not to slack them off but it's not it was a we had a we had a good little group going um and again often you get you know really fit footballers um who come and join in some of the sessions and and there's a there's always a big difference between football fit and running fit you know and someone like yourself who was coming from the high rocks background um that the high rocks fit and what they are required to run for each kilometer.

5:24And then I think, you know, you spoke about about 340 kilometers and things like that at the time, probably moved a bit quicker now. But then we were in like, you know, 250s, 255s, three minutes. And I think that, again, for you to see young kids doing that was probably a little bit of a shock to you, you know, that young kids are doing that. But it's just that they were so, that's their sport. that's what they do um and again you know you came down to quite a lot of the sessions and slotted in brilliantly and we saw as a group saw your progress as a runner um and hopefully that helped you a little bit with you with with your high rock stuff as well yeah no it definitely did so it went down like i said did a couple of sessions realized like the benefit of actually being in a group and i think that was the first time i'd ever realized that because i'd done running away from that before and yeah it's been great but you don't progress half as fast as you would if you was in a group um so did that but then what struck me was how regimented and serious you were not only just in within the coaching with the lads but within your lifestyle even now like obviously retired athlete but still so regimented i think it came to one session and you was eating tuna out of a tin like but obviously you've been like that your whole life where did it where did that like dedication and that obsession with athletics start so there's a there's a couple of layers to that isn't it i think the first thing i'm going to start with is i've i've always loved process whether that be the process of it's olympic year it's olympics in four years time, the process of that, you know, one year to go, the process of trying to get in shape for an Olympia, you know, whatever championships it is, make that a lot smaller.

7:16Even now, I love the process every day. I love the process of my morning routine. What I eat, what I do, very regimented still, gym session at the same time every day. What time do you get up now for your gym? I'm 4.30 every morning. 4.30 every morning. 4.30 every morning in the gym for five to five. Yeah. But I love that process, the process of going to bed, like, and what, you know, all that sort of stuff. I feel like everyone from Horwich just knows you as some crazy guy that's always in the gym. It is, but I love, literally, I love that routine. I love that discipline. It drives my family nuts, you know, quite often.

7:56But like you just said, that's just been ingrained in me. I don't know any different. Was that from like your parents? Yeah, I think, I mean, so going back to the other side, Where did this all start? I probably, I mean, I grew up with an older brother and a younger brother. Older brother who was very sporty, naturally gifted. I always wanted to beat him at everything, right from being tiddlywinks to, you know, there's no way he was, you know, he was king of the hill sort of thing. You know, he was the older brother. There's no way he's going to give that up. My younger brother trying to beat me.

8:31and I grew up in a household which was, you know, and back in the day then, if he beat me at snakes and ladders, we'd have a fight. That's how brothers were, didn't you? But I had a whole childhood where I was always competing at everything within the house. You know, we'd go on a holiday and we'd play a game of tennis and I'd be smashing my racket about if I didn't win and it's just how I was. And, you know, you could argue this, was that a little bit of, you know, with two brothers in the house, you're fighting for your parents' approval. You're fighting for your parents' attention. I don't know, possibly so.

9:09But certainly that competitive instinct came from there. And every time my brothers beat me up, it was like putting another log on the fire that, you know, get down, get yourself back up again. And the next day, whatever game we're playing, whatever we're doing, get back on it again. Yeah, so it came from there. Then obviously, you know, through childhood, thought probably the dead usual route that played every sport at school, was in every sports team in high school. But I just found I had a – I'm going to contradict myself here. I don't want to use the word talent just yet, but I found I was pretty good at running.

9:50And I say I don't want to use the word talent because obviously once I got to a certain level and you saw real talented people at the elite level, you go, crikey, they've got something I haven't got in terms of a God-given, this is what you're born to do. I was pretty good. And I was, again, going back to I always just wanted to be different. I always just wanted my two brothers both got nine A stars in GCSEs, very academic. I didn't. So that was something I've got to prove myself in another way. And I think it just, you know, it snowballed from there. And every time they achieved something, it was, you know, something that I thought I have to go and do something better, do something different all the time.

10:38And it came from there. Yeah. When did you find that you was good at running? I have never even, never thought that. I really haven't. I know it sounds crazy. I really have, because there's always somebody better in there. I've spent my whole life beating myself that's the nature of elite sports and you never feel you're good enough you always want to be better you'd run a personal best time and it would feel easy and you'd straight away you wouldn't even reflect on it and I regret that you know and you wouldn't even reflect on how good it was what you've just done you'd literally go well that felt easy because everything went right on that day I ran a personal best I can go quicker and it's only years later that I look back now and think, I wish I'd have, you know, there were a couple of moments in my running career where I did a few decent races and a few good performances and I wish I'd have just took a moment to take it in.

11:38But it's the nature of the beast, isn't it? You're never satisfied. You're always striving for the next thing, the next personal best, the next championships, the next year, which is a shame. And it's only now when you start conversations like this, and I'm sure we'll touch on it as this goes on, you look back and you just think, God, actually, it was a pretty good journey that you went on. It was pretty tough, but it was a good journey. And it was really unique. And you went to some great place. And it's only now that you look back and think, quacky, that was good. But you never in the moment, you never felt that way.

12:15Never felt I was good enough ever. which is shame really isn't it yeah no i think sometimes you've got to take a step back and just remind yourself like you actually are doing good things and you're probably doing better than what you'd ever thought at one point in time yeah when did things start to get like really serious with the running like when did you think oh i can actually make a career out of this? I think it just progressed. I think I had a goal, you could say from a kid of, let's call it what it was. You have a dream if you want to be an Olympian. Like absolutely out and out. That was it.

12:55So, you know, I made three Commonwealth Games, which was brilliant. It really was good, but it wasn't an Olympics, you know, and ran in, you know, I won national titles. I ran in European cups, world cups, but it wasn't, the Olympics was something that I know as a kid, I'd wrote in a book at primary school, I want to go to the Olympics. I want to be an Olympian. And I think going back to like, when did I realize that I could make, I don't think you ever do it just kind of year upon year, just builds coming through like junior ranks. and I'll give you an example. I went to the, you know, the European Junior Championships with a team of 80 Great Britain juniors and out of that team of 80 Great Britain juniors, I think only three of us made senior international.

13:46So even as a 19-year-old, 20-year-old, I mean, some of these guys were winning European juniors and never made it as a senior international. So even then as a European junior, you know, there's no guarantee that you're going to make it as a senior and certainly because i didn't win european juniors i was always like you know well i'll just keep going i'll just plug away and just just keep you know every year at the end of the year i used to always kind of you know could i get any better could i get any stronger could i get any fit could i do any more is there something that's missing and i was always very very i was always fanatical about try whatever it was one percent, try it, just try it, everything.

14:28Did you coach yourself? No, my dad coached me up until about 18, 19. And then with, I mean, this is the beauty of your dad coaching you because most of the coaches would have tried to keep hold of you. And I was very lucky that my dad kind of took a step back and said, look, I don't think I don't have the knowledge to take you any further. and that's when he kind of tried to seek out local coaches around here. You know, obviously Sail Harries Manchester at the time was, there was a lot of Olympic athletes there back in the day and just seek out other people. And I was very lucky that it was my dad who was coaching me that was happy for me to go, it's about you.

15:15It's not about me as the coach, it's about you and I want to see you progress. So kind of pass me on. but again in saying that my dad knew me from being a little kid and you know the number of times even when you know in my mid-30s when I was self-coached he would still always be the you know the guy who I'll go to you know at certain times of like you know what do you think of this you know and still pick his brains and he just knew me and knew my body and that sort of thing which was nice to have you know yeah but linked up with Sail Harriers in Manchester um norman pool was coaching there then moved down to london um again when i felt that i was reaching a plateau did you move just for the training just for the training yeah there was there was a a guy called mark roland who was the in my event the steeplechase he was the olympic bronze medalist from the 88 olympics um and he approached me after watching me in a race and just said look i feel i can help you out but it's going to need a lifestyle change you're going to I want you to move down to London, live at a base there with, you know, if you like, the junior GB squad.

16:27And he took over for a few years. And again, every time you change a coach, you learn some things, different styles, what works for you, what doesn't work for you. Mark Rowland went on to, he was the head coach at University of Oregon, which is like, you know, the home of Nike, the home of running, isn't it? you know, for the best part of 10 years, he was very, very knowledgeable and has produced some great athletes. And, you know, over the years, you'd just pick the brains of everyone. But I kind of, I was very good at knowing my own body, knowing what worked for me. And once I got into my late 20s, I could tap into coaches, but kind of knew what, certainly the bread and butter that I needed to kind of get me to a certain point, then, you know, the fine tuning would need a bit more guidance with.

17:20Did you have any kind of like training partners that you used to train with all the time? Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah. And I mean, we had a quick chat before we started, didn't we, of like the importance of that, you know, and, you know, going around Rivington running on your own and that sort of thing is brilliant and you're doing a bit of work, but the chances that you're really pushing yourself and having that group around you and just that, particularly in your teenage years, particularly teenage years where the social side is so important, probably is more important than, you know, than the actual running itself and the training itself.

17:57You know, if you've got that social aspect from, you know, 16 to 22 and you're surrounded by people, you're less likely to, you know, fall to all the pitfalls that life throws at your girls and drink and nightclubs and freshers week at university. if you've got that group around you that keep you, I mean, keep you away from that. I don't want to say like you can have your moments, but keep you away from that. And then obviously training with a squad where you've always got people faster than you. Every rep, you can't do the last rep, but your training group is there to support you and they've got your back and you've got their back.

18:36And that's massively important. and then you obviously, when I went to SAIL, you obviously saw some of your training partners who were older making championships and that was inspiring. They come back and, you know, well, I train with him every day and if he can make it, I can make it. So that side of it comes into it as well, that these are just normal people that come down training, but they're making Olympic finals as well, you know, and that gives you a bit of belief, a bit of hope that you don't have to be extra special. you just have to have put those days back to back put those years back to back and keep in the sport yeah what was a typical kind of like day or week looking like for you because i remember speaking to you about this and obviously this was probably like two years ago now and i was like wow this guy is serious like he was so dedicated with everything and with like optimizing everything and i was like the extent that you take everything it's crazy yeah i think well and again i go back to that world that word talent one thing i mean my mum is programmed to love me literally but one thing she always used to say is the one thing that i like was talent and i knew there were guys she said that oh man she said the one thing you like was talent the one that was that if i that's that's word for word quote you know the one thing that i like was talent yeah surely that's the opposite Is it what she should be saying?

20:04Hey, she's my mum. She's brutally honest. If you know my mum, she's brutally honest. And I kind of, once you start seeing these guys at that elite level, you know they've got something. They've got this X factor. Whether that be a turn of pace, whether that be just whatever it is. But you know they've got something that you haven't got. And I knew that. And that's where I knew if I'm going to make every other aspect of my life has to be absolutely spot on. Every aspect. And that's every morsel that you eat. That's everything you drink. That's everything. Your sleep patterns. I mean, I was obsessive.

20:47I was fanatical. I was obsessive, but I felt I had to be that way. I just felt there was no - How obsessed? I couldn't deviate. I could not deviate from the absolute plan. I was, I mean, I remember, you know, when I'd go on, when I met my wife, you go on a date, let's go to the cinema. Okay. Let's go Wednesday at 11 o 'clock. Why would you go to the cinema? Because no one will be in there. Because if I go on a Saturday night, someone will be in there. If somebody sneezes and I get ill, that's a week off training. I'm not prepared to do that. I'm going up Wednesday. There'll be nobody in let's go on a date then you know and it's the just freaky things like that um but i yeah i was i was if there was any way to gain one percent i would do it i mean i changed the water in my house um and and anything i don't what would you mean change the water in your house i changed it to osmosis water so i was drinking clean water so i researched that that you know drinking clean water would help recovery, help with hydration, get through the cell walls better, which meant when you were taking a supplement in water, it would hydrate you better, the protein would work better.

22:02We still have that now.

22:07And it was everything. It was absolutely every asset. But I would always seek out the best people. If I needed a protein shake, I would figure out, I would literally just go, right, Kobe Bryant's nutritionist, who is it? Sally Jenkins. Okay. Sally Jenkins must know quite a bit of stuff because she's with Kobe Bryant. Okay. Let's get in touch with her. Let's get in touch with her. Let's find out what nutrition she does. Let's get bloods done. I need to know exactly where we are. In fact, now we've gone one step further. My son, he's been DNA tested. But literally I used to, so that no stone was left unturned, nothing I would put in my body was guesswork.

22:48I used to know exactly what I was eating, what I was doing, why I was doing it. So you'd way track everything? Absolutely everything. Yeah. Yeah. And I would never deviate from it. Like nothing. I used to, and I used to hate anything that tried to derail that, like somebody's birthday, Christmas day, New Year's Eve, anything. Anything that tried to derail my routine, I used to hate it. Did you say when it was Christmas day, what would you do? Would you, you have the day off like a typical person? Would you enjoy Christmas dinner? Christmas day would always be double day. Yeah, it would be straight up.

23:28And again, if you're going to get, I mean, if you're going to get an advantage over someone, it might be Christmas day. If they're only a day off, right, train twice that day. Train twice that day. It was absolutely non-negotiable. I still do that now, it's crazy. But it was just non-negotiable. and I felt because I didn't have the talent of others, I felt that that's the way I needed to lead my life and a lot of my peers used to just, my running peers used to think, oh God, he's just a freak, what's he doing? But a lot of things I was testing out and trying out, like your bicarbon, things like that, I was trialing it, trialing and erroring it back then, which is now normal now, isn't it?

24:08you know, but literally just, it was, yeah. So go on, let's go through. I was brutal on myself. I was. Let's go through kind of like a typical day. What time would you wake up? Back, you mean now? Back when you was training. Back when I was training, it would normally be certainly two a day, probably three a day sessions. So it'd be up at, you know, 6 a.m. for your first run. Never get out of bed for less than 10 mile. but I always used to like warm up for two mile, warm down for two mile and then go 10 mile. So if I had 10 mile, it was a 10 mile run. It would be a two mile warm up, two mile warm down and then 10 mile where it would be, you know, and again, we go back to, God, I wish I had an appreciated outfit I was, but you know, 52, between 52 and 55 minutes for 10 mile.

24:57So that's like a 320 pace? Yeah, so six minute mile is an hour in it. So yeah, but that would just be, that would just be the norm. You know, that would be bang every morning, bang, bang, bang every morning. Every morning. So you didn't do - And then obviously a longer run on a Sunday. For example, now with like the Norwegian training method where you have hard days, easy days and stuff like that, like it was just pretty hard every day. Yeah, again, knowing, well, that would be just easy. That would be not. So that would have been easy. A 10 mile, I would class a 10 miler at that pace as not taking anything out of the tank.

25:30So that would just be a morning run. You're not taking anything out of the tank. it's just going to you. Did you ever like try your heart rate? Yeah, yeah. What was the heart rate? Average heart rate on the ribs? You know, at six minute mile in it, I had a very low, my resting heart rate was 27. 27? 27 was my resting heart rate. Yeah. I had a very low heart rate. You said I'm shocked by that. Yeah, I know. I can't get mine below 40. I had a very, yeah. I was like 39, 40. And that's pretty low. Yeah, yeah, it is. Oh yeah. Yeah. 27. Whenever I've been to the hospital for whatever reason, you know, the first thing, they always do blood pressure, don't they?

26:09But whatever you're going in for, blood pressure, they always go, something's wrong with your heart. I'm going to send you, I said, no, no, it's okay. It's just, it's, yeah, but it's 28. I know that's, I used to do a bit of running, blah, blah, blah. And that's how it is. And it's still like that now? Yeah, it's probably, probably like 32 now, 33. But like I said, morning run out the door, heart rate then probably be about, I don't know, 150, 155, something like that. Okay. But it's still not that zone two. It's kind of bumping into zone three. Yeah. It was pretty low. It became so routine that I didn't even class it as taking anything out of the tank.

26:48It wasn't a session. It wasn't a hard day. It wasn't a hard morning. It was just get up, do your morning run. That's what it was. And off that heart rate, I knew I'm certainly sub six minute mile in every day, 10 miles bang. um normally if I have lunchtime it would be like a weight session or hurdle drills whatever it would depend on the day and then in the evenings would either be like what you've seen down at Horwich where Monday Wednesday be track sessions um or temple session on Thursday track session on a on a Tuesday um or Monday Wednesday depending on races then it will probably be a harder session Saturday harder bigger session Saturday probably off-road hill reps you know care care loops on the reservoirs and then long run Sunday.

27:34As I got to the latter years where, I mean, if you take Olympic year, for example, 2012, Olympic year, I was working full time as a teacher. I'd started work then. I had two children, which you've, two very small children, almost like Armalee would almost be a newborn. And you've got to put that into your training program as well. So I used to get up about 3am. That would be instead of my 6am, it'd go 3am. That'd be morning run. It would then be, you know, 6.30 would be weight session. Then you'd do a day's work and then you'd come home and that would be, you know, your session night. and then he would get back to bed and ice everything down, repeat it again the next day.

28:28When I was working full, I look back now and when I was working full-time trying to train three times a day with the kids, that was tough. I look back now and think that was tough. You're completely in the zone at the time, but I look back and I'm not sure how I did that and kept that going for a good few years. How were your relationships, obviously, with your partner, with your wife, them? I can imagine that I was very irritable to a lot of people. My parents, incredible support, incredible support. And it's carried on now with obviously, you've just said it there when, you know, if it was a key session that Harrison's doing as a 14 year old kid, you know, my mom and dad just love the game and they absolutely loved it.

29:13And I think when I stopped running, it really left a hole in their lives, you know, because they really lived and breathed it. Absolutely. So they still come down to the sessions. My wife, luckily, was an athlete when she was younger. So kind of understood what she was getting into. The obsessiveness grew year on year and that side of it. She was incredibly tolerant of the way I was. But I think she knew that it was not going to be forever. It was going to be a short career, you know, and it's, and it's done and dusted. Um, but she was, she, would you agree that I'm quite a nice person? Let's just get this out of the way now.

29:58I've met you, I met you at the track, quite a nice person. So what I'm going to say now is I don't want it to change your opinion. You're definitely a nice person. Okay. Can we have that in mind for anyone who's listened to this? Okay. Definitely a nice person. So this is two things. This is my wife and I'm going to, there's a compliment in here, but there's also my obsessiveness. So it's 2008. It's a Friday morning. I've got the Olympic trials the next day on the Saturday. I've gone down to Tesco, the Middlebrook. I've got bags of ice. That ice is going to melt if I don't get home and have my ice bath.

30:33Okay. My wife rings me. She said, my water's broke. Okay. How is she going to give birth? I said, okay, what did the midwife say? You know, she said, she just said, keep calm, relax, have a hot bath or a nice warm bath. I was like, well, that's going to be a problem. I've got ice and I need an ice bath. Is there any chance you can go to your mum's and have the bath? Now I can see your face and you're a male.

31:03A couple of things that just shows how blink, I mean, I say it now and think, God, that's cringe. It really is bad. So that's how blinkered and how in the zone and how focused I was. There's that side of it. And I can only apologize that I was like that. Equally, would you agree, and this is the compliment bit, that most wives would not put up with that? No, I think they'd be long gone. Okay. Now here's the compliment bit. I always say though, that's why I didn't marry most wives because my wife just knew this is just out of his way. Yeah, she knew what she was getting into. You've had that chat beforehand.

31:57And it does, when you just say it as it was, it sounds terrible. I get that and I get that now and I get it. So water's broke. Water's broke. I have my ice bath. my wife you still had your ice bath so absolutely so you had the conversation on the phone my wife goes down to but that that's yeah when you talk about did she just say okay or did she said you're like you're a fucking dick i don't remember the conversation but i just i just know when i got home she was down she nipped down to her mom's house i think she's having a bath there um i think her mom took i don't think her mom took her to the hospital and then it was only later that night when you know i'd have my ice bath i'd prep my food i'd have my evening meal the i rang her and i said look how well i said i think it's happening right now i'm like right okay i'll get to the hospital quick bomb down there within five minutes of being there harrison was born um and i had olympic trials the next day and off i went you still went to the olympic trials like absolutely didn't have any time off no no and and again it it sounds so bad it sounds so bad but um like i say it it requires a bit of explanation and it requires you know me to say you know it would have been you're following your dream aren't you you know you're absolutely following your dream and i've been on that journey for 15 years i'd you know i'd failed to make i'd trained for four years and failed to make the Sydney Olympics at that point.

33:32I'd had the best racing year ever at 2004 and ruptured my Achilles tendon just before the Athens Olympics. You go another four years and this was Beijing Olympics and you think, you know, you're 32. How many more have you got left in you? You've got one shot. You don't want anything to disrupt that. The The chances of you making Olympics are so slim, but you do become completely obsessed and blinkered. And I'm just very, very, very lucky that my wife just bought into that, supported that. And again, there's moments like that where you just think, well, but you asked the question earlier, how obsessive were you?

34:15And it was probably just wrong. But then again, I listened to Kobe Bryant and I listened to these, those top guys were, you're psychotic, aren't you? No, well, I think I definitely put you in that category as well. You're absolutely on it. You know, you are. And, you know, and I was just doing that to try and make a championship, you know, and had I had the talent as well, I might have won a few medals, but literally just, that's just what I felt at the time. So that was for 2008. And I hope anybody listening to that doesn't judge me just off that one thing. Well, even if they do, what can they say?

34:50Like, for me, that's dedication at its finest. And as well, like if, say for example, that was 2008, right? Yeah. So you did that trial. How did you do in that trial? I ran the qualifying time, but got fourth in the trials. So didn't make the Olympic team. So you didn't make it. So it didn't pay off, but you still give absolutely everything that you could have to do that. People need to know that you can still fail after giving everything. I think it's important to know that you can fail massively because, you know, having told that story and then not made the Olympic team, you can fail massively.

35:28And that's three Olympics now that I've not made. And that's, you know, that's the best part of 12 years with a few nice moments in between. That's 12 years of failure. But equally, you can put your head on the pillow for the rest of your life, for the rest of your life, knowing that you could not have given any more and you couldn't have done anymore. And you can sleep soundly knowing that. And that's a nice, for me, that's a nice position to be in that I couldn't do anymore. You know, equally, I look, you know, fast forward a few years where I see my wife, you know, Harrison's running around as a little toddler.

36:06She's got Leah breastfeeding Leah. She's got a laptop in one on. She's starting her own business up. And you just go, she's nails. She's absolutely nails, you know. and you know she has her own business now she works very hard on that who would i be to be go you know you got you're working until late at night you shouldn't be doing that i've no right to say that either you know given what she supported me through um that's how it is that's that's that that works that worked for us at the time you know and she understood that like literally luckily yeah but genuinely i love it and i stand by the point like that for me is almost more impressive because you didn't get what you wanted at the end of like all them sacrifices and how like laser focused you were.

36:50Yeah. In Beijing, we're talking here, um, in that 2008 period, like you, you were so focused and so kind of like selfish in a way. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think my wife understood that. And I think she, you know, she, she comes from a running background um she know she she she knew kind of what she was getting a little bit of what she was getting into but like i said that fanatic that obsessiveness that really built over the years um the the higher up you went the more extreme i got um and the more i was trying all sorts of things and whatever it was like literally she just she she knew that for me to for me to have the rest of my life with her and sleep well at night and just think, you know, I've done everything I can.

37:37I can be happy in myself. Even though I failed, I did everything. I would still be happy in myself. And for the next, you know, I finished running at, you know, 2012 Olympics 36. For the rest of your life, you can have a very, very good relationship with your wife and whoever and your friends and whoever, because you're happy within yourself that you couldn't have done anymore. And that's massive, isn't it? Yeah. You know. You've had such like a, I feel like it's just so positive the way that you look at it, even though, like you say, you have failed. Like you're still so positive because you did everything that you could have.

38:15Yeah, yeah, yeah. How did it actually feel to make the Olympics? Obviously, like you said, it was your dream. Yeah. And again, going back to, I was then working full-time as a teacher. and it was, it was just like, it's the ultimate, isn't it? How old were you? I was then 36 at the time. So you know it's your last shot. And again, I look back now and you look back and think the chances, the chances of you making that. I mean, not 1 % of people get to become an Olympic athlete. the chances of every four years, you only get one shot. Every four years, you know, everything has, you can't get ill.

39:02You can't get injured. Every training session has had to have gone perfectly for six months leading up to that. Those are the younger kids who are all coming through who also want to go there. You've got to beat them as well. And you've got to be the, you've got to turn up to national champs and be the number one in the country. the window of opportunity goes smaller and smaller and smaller as you get older. And I think it's only now that you look back on that and go, you know, even though you go to Olympics, I didn't win a medal at the Olympics, you know, but to say you're an Olympic athlete for the rest of your life, to say you're an Olympian the rest of your life, and to now look back and reflect on actually what you went through, you just go, God, there's some great life lessons there, isn't there?

39:48that stand you in good stead for the rest of your life. And obviously it being a home Olympics, everybody in the country knew it was going on. I mean, it's a bit like the World Cup this year when it's been in America. It's slightly different when they're playing at two o 'clock in the morning. To have it in London, to have everybody there, your family can come and watch, all that sort of stuff, was absolutely brilliant. But again, I knew driving home for the Olympics. I knew straight away I was driving home for the Olympics after the closing ceremony. And I knew then I was mentally, emotionally, and physically absolutely frazzled.

40:32That level of obsessiveness, that level of everything, it's top level sport is pretty brutal. It's cutthroat, it's brutal, it's tough to stay there. and I knew straight away, driving up in there, I was like, I never want to go through this again. I was 36 at the time. That year alone, I'd had about eight, nine cortisone injections in my hip just to get me through training leading up to Olympics. You had some surgery on your hip the other year? Yeah, I've now had a, you know, from that, I've now had a hip replacement in my trail leg, which again, don't normally do in your late 40s. but you know that's down to just like the actual the extreme that I push myself to but I knew coming home from the Olympics like it's not going to get much better than that and also you know I was absolutely I was pretty frazzled, pretty drained from it which I don't mind admitting I don't mind saying it but it was tough going Looking on that start line I actually watched it the other day and you are the most in shape person on that start line.

41:45Like you look jacked. And I asked you this before and you were saying, do you know how much you actually weighed though? Would you just mind explaining? Yeah. So I'm now, you know, I'm now 74 kg and still - You're lean, very lean. I still hover. You can see the veins. Yeah, I still hover. I don't like to go above 5 % body fat. I hover just under 5 % body fat. That's just, And when I say I don't, that's the way I eat, the way I live my life. I don't have to try and stay under that. It's just the way I live my life now. I feel I've got everything that I like and it's all in line for me to stay in that shape and be incredibly healthy as well.

42:28But so 74 kilogram now, and I used to, my race weight, I used to like to try and dip under 60 kg. I used to be pretty gone. Pretty, yeah. And again, that's elite sport, isn't it? It's elite sport where you're on the edge of, it's like a Formula One car. You're absolutely high performance, but you're always on that 99 % where 100 % and you're done. You're injured, you're ill. Formula One car, the car breaks down, whatever it is. You're absolutely on the edge. So how did you even get down to that weight? it? Obviously you're running 120 mile weeks, 130, sometimes up and down a bit more, a bit less, but over a hundred mile a week, week in, week out.

43:17And obviously throwing the weight sessions, throwing the food that you can't consume enough food just because you're running that, you're training that hard that much. I never really found it like that. I had to consciously go, right, okay, I need to cut down, I need to try and get down to that weight. I was, I used to, I was always, again, going back to obsessive, I did, I always, I was always race weight six months before the race. So I always used to just be, so it was never a challenge. It was never something, I didn't want to dip my energy levels to try and lower my weight. I was, and again, I was never obsessed with weight.

43:56I never, I never weighed myself. Only, it'd be, it'd be, A rare occasion, if I was doing like a, you know, a VO2 max test or whatever, and they actually stand on us, whatever it was. But I never weighed myself, ever. I never was obsessed with what I used to weigh. I just always kind of knew that, yeah, I'm dropping into shape. And I could just, you know, I could just pinch and put hands on my hips. I used to stand on the star line, put my hands on my hips, and I knew, crikey, I'm pretty lean here, I'm in shape. And going back to my mum, who was always brutally honest, She used to always say, the sicker you look, the more ill you look, the more I knew you were rolling into shape.

44:37But again, I never used to actually physically like week on week weigh myself and try and get that down. I just used to carry on exactly what I was doing, but I just kind of knew that I was rolling into, you know, that sort of slow 60s. It makes me laugh, man. I feel like your mum is so like brutally honest. She still is now. So far from like a typical mother, like a typical mother would be like, oh, you need to eat more. You need to do this. You need to do that. You know, when it comes into race. My mom and dad are very much chalk and cheese. My mom's very similar to me. And we clash quite a bit because of that.

45:18We argue quite a bit because of that, because we're so light-minded. But she didn't see me as a son. She saw me as an athlete. I think that's the best way to describe it. That's the easiest way to describe it. When I was on the track, it wasn't her son running. It was an athlete and she'd treat me as an athlete and she would speak to me as an athlete. And if I had a bad race, she would tell me as an athlete. If I should have made a move and botched up a race, didn't win a race or whatever, we would get in the car and she would tell me exactly how it was. My dad very much saw me as his son. And my dad, regardless of results, performance, whatever, was always super proud of you.

45:58Super proud of it. There was that side of it. And it was good to have both elements because if you mess up a race and somebody's slapping your high five, say, well done anyway. You're not getting to the top of it. I'm not learning anything there, am I? And I had that fine balance. And then of course, who came along, but obviously my wife came along and she was a great leveler. She was a great level and saw every aspect of everything, the day-to-day's ins and outs. And that, you know, I can't underestimate her role taking over that from being living with my mum and dad to being with Gemma, you know, she kind of took over that mantle, but was a great leveler.

46:42And, you know, keep you humble, keep your discipline, keep, you know, keep everything. And, you know, towards the latter years where it's okay to go out for a meal. It's okay. You'll be okay. You know, it's okay to go to the cinema. you know it's okay just to take the reins off a little bit you know and it was good to have that balance yeah and of course when the kids come along you've no choice but to have a distraction and change you know think of other things don't you yeah what was the biggest struggle that you went through during your career i think after i think after beijing i think after beijing so that was 2008 that's the that's attempting three olympics um and not making three olympics I think that was the toughest.

47:31Yeah. And I taught, I had a year where, I had a year almost, I say away from the sport. I never missed a day's training, but in my head, I wasn't going to race again after that. I was at an all-time low. Yeah, that was a pretty tough one to take. Having made championships in the years leading up to that, having been, you know, number one in the country, two in the country, three at worst, you know, over the, over 10 years leading up to that Olympics. Um, I think that was, that was a tough one to take. And I, and I was, yeah, I had about a year where it was pretty tough. I never missed a day's training.

48:14Um, but in my head, I wasn't going to compete again. And had, and it was kind of like, um, had London, had the Olympics been anywhere else, had it been anywhere else the chance that there may have been a chance where i might have gone but but just the draw to just go you know london's got the olympics was that the thing that like changed your mind thinking i'm going to compete again after probably after about a year um in that year i did an ironman triathlon bolton ironman here i just i needed it and i just needed it i knew i was in shape so i was still training every day um but i just needed something different I needed a way from it.

48:50I needed a distraction. And it was 2009. And it was the first year where Bolton got the Ironman to host it here. And I just thought, you know what? I'll just do something different. I'll still have the challenge. I'll learn to swim. I'll get on the bike a few times. I'll see if I can get around an Ironman. And it was only kind of like after that where - How did you find that Ironman, by the way?

49:15If I was to do it again, I'd bike a lot more. Yeah, I went in there as a runner. I probably went into that. I went into the Iron probably in about 215 shape for marathon, probably around 215 shape. But I'd probably done about eight bike rides. My longest one was about 60. I just thought, I'm fit. I can get round. I'll get round. I had no intention of trying to win the thing. I borrowed my mate's bike and just thought, I'll get round one. I just needed something different, you know, different experience, a different challenge. And again, you know, a different challenge. Well, I'll do the, I'll do, you know, a 10K.

49:56Well, that was just bread and butter. I'll do a marathon. Well, that was kind of do that every day anyway, you know, and to do the Ironman was just something different. And I think I just needed time to distract, keep in shape, but just get away from athletics for a year. and then it was kind of like, you know, I don't think I could have lived with myself. If I had tried for the London Olympics and failed, giving it everything again, you can live with yourself. I don't think I could have, it wouldn't have sat well with me not trying, you know, and again, the odds are very much stacked against you at that point because you've got two small children, you're working full time, you can't go on training camps away, you can't go through the altitude, you can't do all the things you want to, you have to really adapt and get the best out of yourself given the cards that you dealt with in that year.

50:56The younger lads are going faster and faster so that's obviously a challenge as well. But I think that 2009 was about as low as I've got and again, you lose your whole identity, don't you? Like you just said, Stuart the runner, Stuart the athlete, I used to have a loop around Edgerton that I used to run every morning or then when I moved over here, you have a run and everybody in traffic going to work used to see you every morning and you're going to Tesco and they don't know who you are but they know, oh, you're that lad who runs past every morning, don't you? And then all of a sudden, if you're not doing that anymore, you completely lose it And that's hard to get your head around.

51:38It's hard to deal with that. You're just not that person anymore. But, you know, like I say, the law of the Home Olympics was big enough to me to go, okay, let's try and let's give it one more go. When did you enjoy training again? When I say, obviously you trained all the time, so you might have still enjoyed it, but when did you get the love back for like, actually, I want to go to this and compete and I'm hungry for it. Yeah, I think, so I'd made two Commonwealth Games at that point and the Commonwealth Games 2010 was in Delhi in India. And I read somewhere that there's not many people who've actually done three Commonwealth Games.

52:22Obviously, I'd love to sit here and say, win three Commonwealth Games, but actually not many people actually get to do three Commonwealth Games. You don't have the opportunities, do you? And I read that somewhere that there was a list of athletes and it was a pretty small list and there's some pretty big names on there as well. And, you know, that was like, okay, 2010 rolls around. Let's not think 2012. Let's just think one step at a time and let's try and make the Commonwealth Games, which are in India, you know. I'd had another surgery, double hernia operation that winter. So again, that's another little setback.

53:03So I had short-term goals as well, to try and make a third Commonwealth Games would have been great. Once I'd done that, and you just think, we're only a year away. We're only a year away till we start Olympic year. And I think that I could get my head around. To go after 2008, to go, I've got four years. I can't do it. I can't put myself through it for another four years. but once I got to 2010, it was like, well, it's one more season and then it's Olympic year. And I think that kind of got me back into it and had a decent performance in the Commonwealth Games, got fifth, there's fifth in that.

53:41And again, it was fifth place behind, you know, a current world record holder, former Olympic champ. So it was no disgrace to come fifth and not get a medal. But you just get the bug back, I think. And I think it would have been, I kind of knew that if I hadn't have tried to go to the Olympics or if I hadn't have made the Olympics, I knew that every single person who I knew was going to ask, are you in the Olympics? Do you know what I mean? Everybody, everybody has ever knew. And oh, you're Stuart the Runner. Oh, it's the Olympics next year. Are you in it? Are you going to it? Are you trying to get in it?

54:16Everyone, I knew everyone would ask about it. and for me to just constantly be saying, no, I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it. Or I've not made it. I've not, which, you know, I think that would have, it would have eaten me up. Yeah. And just all of a sudden, there's no guarantee I was going to be in the Olympics, but for everybody to ask questions, are you going to go for it again? Are you going to for the Olympics? And yes, yes, yes. And all of a sudden your mindset changes, doesn't it? I'm saying yes to this all the time to the lady in Asda. who's on the checkout. Oh, we saw you in the Commonwealth Games.

54:52Are you going to go to London Olympics? It's only... Yes, I am. And all of a sudden, you're saying yes all the time. And I think that completely switched my mentality that, okay, I've got another year and a half. I've got to give this a go. That switched it. How important is it to have self-belief? Because you see a lot of athletes and when you get to the top of sports, you've got to believe. If you don't believe in yourself, then you've not even got a chance. Yeah, yeah. I think we've seen it at the moment, aren't we, with Jakob Ingebrigtsen, who is being portrayed as a little bit arrogant, a little bit cocky.

55:31And I look at him and just go, oh, he just believes he's got self-belief. And he has that edge. He has that swagger. I go back to like somebody like Prince Nazeem, the boxer, who just used to do a front flip before he got, And it's just, it is that X factor, isn't it? That self-belief can be portrayed as, is a bit arrogant, is a bit cocky, or be a nice person, you know, be humble, be down to earth, be a nice person. But God, it's massively important. When I used to race in the UK, 100 % I could stand on the start line and psyche everyone out without a doubt. 100%. What would you do? You go to the next level and you're on that style I'm like oh you know you've got the Olympic champion here you've got a world champion different you know it's a different story I wish I could you know but you're being a realist out there you know these guys are like 10 seconds quicker than you're over you know the 3k and you're like well you know you've got to really up your game but certainly I used you know definitely I could you could you could eye up people you know if you know he's my main rival go have a quick conversation with him about and I'd just I'd just get in the head I'd pick the brains get in the head what would you do what would you say just ask you know tell them a little session I did tell them the times I ran for a time trial last week tell them whatever it was do you think that kind of stuff works yeah I think I think yeah I do yeah I think so if you just if you just make sure like you're superior on that start line yeah it's a little it's a little one thing one of my best friends used to laugh at me when I used to do it whoever was my main rival there I know I used to get on the start line and go Or listen, I'm going out in 67s.

57:15I say, I'm going out in 67s. You want to come with me, you can. But I'm going out in 67s. And straight away in their head, they're going, crikey, 67s. Yes, I'm going out in 67s. And I just go, certainly when I'm racing in the UK against the UK peers. For reference, that's 60 seconds. 67 seconds, that's all. 67 seconds. Per lap, but with the hurdles as well. With the hurdles. Yeah, 60, 60, 67s. And I just said, look, I'm going in 67. If you want to jump on the back of it, you know, that's great. but I'm going out in 60, 60, 67s. And straight away, you could see that, okay, wait a minute, wait a minute.

57:48I had a race plan and he's just completely trumped my race plan. I was going to do this. You know, I was going to go out in front and I would just go and hit the front and hit the first 2K hard. And then, and know, know that I was stronger than them anyway. But God, from that respect, that self, that belief that they're not going to beat me. They're not going to beat me, you know, mentally. Equally, I used to stand on a start line, and this is important for your self-belief as well. I used to stand on a start line, certainly in the UK when I was racing UK people, and there was no way on God's off that they weren't better prepared than me.

58:27Not a chance. There was no way that they were better prepared on that start line than I was. And I don't mean that just in terms of the training and getting that bit right. I mean, all encompassing everything that's going on in your life, everything, Every aspect of how you prepare for that race, your food, your supplements, your sleep patterns, your water that you drink, everything. I used to stand on that style and knowing there's 10 things that I'm doing that you aren't doing. And that gives me a lot of confidence and self-belief. I'll give you a quick example. Like London 2012 year, we flew out to Brussels.

59:02We had to run the qualifying time twice. You run the qualifying time twice. We flew out to Brussels. I raced my two biggest rivals. All three of us run the qualifying time. After the race, I had immediately after the race, I crossed the finish line. They beat me by a stride, but we all ran the qualifying time. So we've got one. Now, everybody has to go and get a second qualifying time. In 10 days time, wherever you were racing, I was going down to Seville. So we crossed that finish line. Now my preparation organization within 30 seconds of crossing that line, I'd had something to drink and it was prepared, ready.

59:45Within 15 minutes, I'd had something to eat, something to drink. Within 30 minutes, I'd had something else, something else, done. Within an hour, I've had this and I'm fully recovered. My two biggest rivals, I know for a fact, and I watched them do it, they weren't prepared like that. And I know they went for pizza. And I know that they drank a bottle of Coke in the restaurant because I saw it and I let them know about it. And I knew that that was the end of their season because there's no way they were going to recover in 10 days time. When you let them know about it, where was that? That was in the restaurant.

1:00:23Just made it feel like shit. Nothing crazy. Getting in the head though. Just getting in the head. Yeah. And we all went out to the next, I went down to Seville next qualifying time. I run the time again, but that's just the self-belief and the little bit of psyche that comes into it. But equally that obsessiveness of preparing. I remember the day of that race, the day of the race, I prepped my own food. It was over in Brussels and I took bags of this and bags of that. And just in case you go to the hotel and you cannot get what you want for that, I'd already got it with me, everything stacked up.

1:00:59And I know that I saw what they had for breakfast and they were scratching around the hotel I would have had this, but the hotel doesn't have it. So I'm going to eat there. Straight away, I just know I've got one up on them. You know, and at elite level, that's sometimes what it takes. That's the edge, isn't it? Yeah, that's half a percent, whatever it is. Yeah, and that gave me a lot of self-belief that I'd stand on a start line and know, you know, I'm more prepared than everybody else on the start line. You mentioned there that you might have done 10 things that they might have not done. Can you just explain a couple of them things that you feel like give an advantage and that they are kind of like the extra percent and it might be within training, it might be nutrition, it might be anything like, what are the things that you did as an athlete that you mentioned, you might not have had the talent of some of these guys, but you got to the same level as them.

1:01:55So generally from day to day, when I was competing, obviously it changed my water. That was a big thing. so I know I'm going to hydrate, but I'm drinking clean water, hydrating better, recovering quicker. Then it was like the foods I was eating, so everything was organic, but I never deviated from whole foods ever. Whole, whole foods every time I drank. My sleep patterns were absolutely rigid. It never moved. That's another thing. I was absolutely clockwork, getting to bed and getting up. That never moved. What time did you go to bed? even now I'm like quarter past eight, half past eight max, quarter past eight, bang.

1:02:33I'm going, but an hour before that I'd start, okay, no more wire phones, television off. I start my little routine then and I'm going to bed. Even now it drives my family nuts. But then, okay, we fly out to Brussels. We're in a hotel. I take my own bed sheets and I take my own pillowcase because I read somewhere that obviously your body is used to the feel, the smell of everything, of the bedsheets, your pillowcase. You go in a hotel and you're on different bedsheets and it's like 1 % of energy in the night that you use up because your body is trying to adapt to the different feel, the different smells, the different...

1:03:14Do you know what I mean? Emily, you're writing these down. You look back now and think, I was a freak. You know what I mean? I just, I think it was Dave Brailsford, you know, the cycling, the cycling guy, he was always big on the 1 % and I think I read it, something he was done. I'd 100 % I would take an arm, if I'm racing abroad, I'm taking all my own foods, taking on, if I'm, if I'm having a supplement, I'm not just going to Holland and Barrett, I'm literally sourcing out the very best people. and my parents remortgaged the house at least once, I think twice to pay like the best nutritionist to pick the brains of advice off them.

1:03:56What I should, if I'm taking a protein shake, which is the very best cleanest one on the planet, source that out. If I'm putting salt in my water, which is the best salt? Is it Celtic salt? Is it Baja gold sea salt? What is it to get fully hydrated? If I'm taking the best, what fish oils am I taking? I'm sourcing at the very best fish holes. And I was absolutely obsessed with finding that out. And over the years, obviously, that's, you know, that changes from what I was doing then is different from what I'm doing now because we learn more, don't we? But at the time, I would do absolutely everything like that, like humanly possible to get an edge and an advantage.

1:04:35Yeah. And now you obviously, well, your son's just got a scholarship to go over to America, Harrison. but before that you was kind of like coaching him. Yeah, yeah. How has training changed from when you were training like, do you know, 20 years ago to now? Yeah, well, I think not just training but supplements are everything. Shoes have changed, supplements have changed, the training's changed. So mass living now, there's a massive emphasis on volume now where, I mean, we call it the double days, don't we? The double threshold days, which again is very, very prominent in most elite athletes now, where they train under that threshold, which means they're not going lactic, which means they can go for a long time.

1:05:22And because of they're not going lactic, they can do that twice a day, get a bit more volume in, have a bit more very, very hard day, double days, then a slightly easier day then. And that's something that I never played around with. It just wasn't around at the time. We used to do our tempo work, our threshold work, of course, but the thought of going back out again, you know, the thought of 2400s in the morning, but not fast, just at threshold and keeping it controlled. And then you'd class it as a, I would class it as a session 24, but then you go back out that evening and you're on a, you know, six to 10 mile threshold run.

1:06:01the thought of that back then was crazy you know that you're trying to train really hard twice a day um i think that that side of it has massively changed um i think now because of that people have just learned that if they just have that in fact jakob ingerson touched on it um when he won the european champs where he's the commentator said to him did you realize you had such a sprint finish have you been working on your speed? And he said, it's not about my speed. It's about getting to the last lap, the freshest. If I'm the fittest person, so that was, that's where that volume comes in. If I'm the fittest person with a lap to go and I'm the, and I'm, and I've not wasted enough, I know I've got a chance.

1:06:44It's not about back in the day where you, you, you spent a lot of time doing your speed work. Um, and I think that side of it has changed quite a, quite a bit now. Um, I think people can now train a lot more, a lot more regularly because of the footwear that they use. I mean, we were like, I look back to the trainers we had, they were like practically like PE pumps. You were going to batter your body. Where now I don't think you're battering your body as much because of the cushioning and that sort of thing in the shoes. So I think you can double up days. You can go back to back more. but your legs recover quicker, more quicker, you know, because of the technology and the footwear now.

1:07:29Throwing again, infrared saunas, throwing ice baths, throwing cryotherapy chambers, throwing oxygen chambers, throwing what we know about supplements now and how we utilize that. Throwing all those recovery strategies, which was slowly coming in when I was around. We used to have an ice bath, but you know, that sort of thing. Day to day, if you're doing all those things, day to day, you wake up the next day fresh. you can go hard again. You wake up the next day fresh, providing you're getting all those things in the system, which are strategies that we didn't have access to back in the day. So that allows you to train harder, train more, put more volume in.

1:08:10And because of those things, you can now adapt your training where you used to have to go, well, I've done a track session on Monday. You're going to have to have an easy day on Tuesday because your legs are going to be shot. You're going to be fatigued. You've got to give it time to recover. Where now they'll have done track session, not in spikes. They'll have done it in some stacked up shoes, which are really easy on the legs. And you wake up the next morning, you feel a lot better, don't you? So I think we're able to stack days, stack weeks a lot better than we did previously because of those adaptations in the technology.

1:08:47It is interesting, especially like how much more people can run. and you see it throughout, not just athletes, but regular people as well, just on Instagram. And like the new norm wasn't the norm back in the day. Even for like marathon running, like it's normal to go. Well, it seems normal. It's definitely not normal, but it seems normal to go and run a marathon. Yeah. That was never a normal thing. Yeah, absolutely. Everyone goes and runs a marathon now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or ultra marathons or, you know, and everything's going more and more extreme. But I think, like I say, some of that's down to kind of like the shoes, more information being put out there and stuff like that.

1:09:24Was there anything that you wish is out now that you could have had back in the day? Oh, them spikes. The carbons. How much faster do you think that you could be? Weirdly, like I'll answer this in two parts. The first part is I wish I'd have known at 20 what I knew at between 34 and 36. You know, my last two years of my running, I wish I'd have known at 20 that, because right then was when like, I get it now. I get absolutely. I've been trialed and errored with different coaches, trialed and errored with different systems, you know, I wish I'd have known. So one answer is, I wish I'd have known even while I was still competing those latter years, I wish I'd have known that at 20.

1:10:12Was there anything that you found out that comes to mind? Just what worked for me. Right, okay. Just how, what, how I, how I, yeah, just basically what, what exactly worked for me and having physiological tests in those last couple of years knew, oh my God, I'm like, I'm now 34 to 35, 36 and I'm definitely fitter than I've ever been. I'm definitely fitter, which I wish I'd have known that that was exactly the combination of training that would be best for me. I wish I'd have known that at 20 because that could have been completely different. Going back to the actual question, what do I know now?

1:10:53I mean, you know, from 2012 to 2026, certainly, I mean, if I'd have been the same fitness and you run, you know, 8.25 for a steeplechase, You just change your shoes and you're knocking 10, 12 seconds off, you know? And 10, 12 seconds, I mean, puts you really world-class. That's a lot, isn't it? Oh God, yeah. Yeah, and you stack that up on a marathon and you stack it up on a 10K, stack it up on a five, you know? It really is just by everything being the same and just put on this footwear. And you're looking at, you know, you're probably looking over a steeple probably i mean the reason i know this one of my friends works for a sports brand who does a lot of the testing on it as well and he said and he said you know he said you're probably looking about 10 seconds um 10 12 seconds over a steeple which again i look at see i look at the qualifying times to make olympics and make world champs and i think god they're low and he they've come down you know and i said it's brutally hard that i said yeah but you gotta remember, you're like, take 10 seconds off that because that's what shape you have to be in.

1:12:02Put on a pair of shoes and that gets you to there, you know. But certainly the shoes have been a game changer, haven't they? Yeah, absolutely. No, no, it is interesting. What's life like now? Obviously, let's say retired kids growing up, one's just gone to America. Like, are you still training? Obviously. Every day, literally every day. Yeah, so my son has just gone off to it. He's been there five weeks now. No news is good news. We've had a couple of video calls. He's absolutely loving it. Totally settled in. And he's gone over on like a running scholarship, right? A running scholarship over to Finlay University in Ohio.

1:12:48And literally it's, you know, I mean, he didn't say it to me, he said it to my wife, but he said, you know, I really feel for the first time in my life, I really fit in and I found my kind of like my tribe. And I think that's just a lovely place to be in it. You know, because you've gone for a few years as a 16 year old where, you know, even your mates who are really good, really good people, you start drinking, you start vaping, you start going out on, you know, and he's had to say no to all that. And it's been lovely that he's gone out there and he said to my wife a couple of weeks ago you know i really found i've really found like-minded people you know which is brilliant you know and i see videos on youtube because they stream some sessions live instagram stuff where you just think look at him he's just he's just brilliant you know you you showed me a picture before of them like 6 a.m and there's 20 guys there all ready to race around the track tops off it's 28 degrees there's 30 guys on a start line ready for the session for the day in 6 a.m imagine that at Bolton Arena I go back to I did say it to you I said you're living the dream aren't you and you're literally that you're living the dream whether he makes it or not at this point is irrelevant he's living the dream and that's you know you're living the dream me personally I still train every day never never never miss are you back running after your a little bit I used to I used to do my easy run so when Harrison was doing an easy run.

1:14:20Can't keep up with no sessions anymore. But when he was doing his easy run, I'd go on a few easy runs with him, run with my wife a bit now. Nothing kind of like with any intention of any competition, nothing like that. I love my gym stuff. And that's been, and I've had to adapt because of that and really scale back the running side of it. but I love training. I love my, I love, I still love that process of every day. And, you know, I remember somebody saying this to me back in the day, like one of the negatives of being disciplined is that every day is the same. Every day is the same. That's one of the negatives of being disciplined.

1:15:03But he said, one of the negatives of having no discipline is every year is the same. if that makes sense. Ah, right. Okay. Yeah. Now I see this on, now I think I'm trying to explain that. How many times do you see, probably let's say a mate of yours, it's New Year's Eve and they put on a post, hashtag boom, let's smash it. This is my year. And you know full well, they're going to know nothing about it. You know, they're going to do nothing about it job wise. They're going to do nothing about it health wise. And you go on Facebook, I'm showing my age because people don't use Facebook anymore. My daughter will be cringing if I say that.

1:15:43But you go on Facebook and that same person scroll back the following year, the last year, the previous year, hashtag boom, let's smash it. You know what I mean? And I look at, so that's what I'm saying. That year on year, if you've no discipline, nothing changes, does it? But obviously that's, and I like that. I heard that quote years ago and I remember thinking, you know, I get that. I can apply that. But like I say, I do like my routine. I do like my process. Yeah. And I, you know, I like, I like, I like being active. I think it's, you know, if I am going to coach kids down on the track, I'm a PE teacher now, you know, if I am going to stand in front of a group of kids, I do feel a bit of responsibility to kind of look the part, you know, as best I can.

1:16:30I'm, you know, 50 in December. Equally, if you're going to, you know, drop me a message and say, do you fancy coming to a podcast? If I had a rocked up at 20 stone, I don't know. Would it have the same impact? I don't know. Definitely not. You know, if I had a piled on the weight and I was unrecognizable, which, you know, which you see a lot, don't you, for people, you know, I don't think it would have, I don't think, you know, I don't think it has the same. I don't think you're, then people are as inspiring talking about like their history when they're not the same person anymore. And they're like, whereas like, I can, we can see that you're the same person.

1:17:12Like you, you are the athlete. Yes. You changed your lifestyle. You know, do you know? I've had to, I mean, I've had to tone it down a little bit. My wife would really kick me out. But you know what I mean? It's no. And again, I just, I, I like, I like being fit. I like being active. I like being healthy. You know, I used to, when it was my track season, I used to have three weeks in September, complete rest. When I was an athlete, three weeks in September. And that was the three weeks where I was allowed, eat what you want, do what you want, stay up late, eat chocolate, do whatever it was, just do whatever you want.

1:17:48And I thought, I've got the best three weeks of the area. I don't think I ever got past about four or five days where I just felt terrible. And then what did you just get back? Did you just cut it short? And not so much cut the training shot, still have my rest, my three weeks, but just go, I've got spots. My hair's gone greasy. I can't get to sleep at night, yet I can't wake up in the morning. I'm wandering around like a zombie. And this is how probably most people feel on a daily basis because they just eat, you know, whatever they're eating, processed food, whatever it is. And after five days, I can't live like this.

1:18:26I feel terrible. And after five, six days, I'm like, I need a break for it. I'll still take my rest, but I've got to get back. And your body's like a computer, isn't it? It was scary, but yeah. And it's just habit and routine. And then obviously you're a P-teach now. Are you still coaching at all? Or is it something that you want to kind of get into or are you done with? Again, I'm kind of in a bit of a place where there's a certain level of expectation that if I'm investing time, and I think I said this previously, if I'm investing time and putting an effort into a group of kids. You want it matched?

1:19:17Yeah. Yeah. And I find it difficult. I find it difficult in my head to go, I don't get, not necessarily say I don't get why they're not like me because I appreciate that everyone's probably as stupid as me or whatever. But if I'm stood in the middle of a field in Rivington and they've not shown up because they went out the night before, I'm like, okay, I'm done. There's a certain standard and expectation which I feel if you're going to do yourself justice, you approach the sport. And if you're not going to do that, I'm not prepared to invest my time in you. And, you know, it's hard to find people like that, isn't it?

1:20:04It's hard to find, you know, and I often find, you know, by the time the kids are about 15, 16, you kind of know whether they get it or not. You know, they get, you know, they're invested. Even as young as 15, 16, you just know. And that goes back to snakes and ladders where you smash the board because you've lost, you can't teach that. You can't coach that, I don't think. You either have that in you that you hate to lose or you love to win or you've just got this innate drive, I think it's hard to get that later on. It's either in you or not. I might be wrong saying that. It's just my belief of it.

1:20:51but you know if you know I do feel you've got things to offer so you know if the right group people come along it's been wonderful down at we've mentioned about Salford Harriers this last year or so which are just a great bunch of you know from young to old great bunch of people you know and it was brilliant spending time and helping them out and doing some you know you've got Ian Grime down there Duncan Mason who are leading the coaching but to just be part of that and was brilliant, absolutely brilliant. You know, I've loved it. And, you know, I've had this little window where I've enjoyed Harrison not being around for a while.

1:21:32You know, I'm just having a moment just to go, it's nice to have a bit of free time, but 100 % I'll get back down there because I do miss being around it now, you know, you know, and, you know, offering a bit of advice and that sort of thing. It's really good. Yeah. There's so much value you can add as well, like you say. I feel like you coaching, whether it's at Salford Harriers or somewhere else, I feel like it'd be the perfect role for you. Yeah. But I've got to always remember as well that my day job is being a teacher, you know, and that's my bread and butter. That's what, you know, I love doing that.

1:22:08And I've, you know, if I'm going to invest time elsewhere, you know, in evenings and that sort of thing, slightly different when it's your own son, you know, you do it and you work around it. But, you know, as a teacher, and I know, you know, there's the stereotypical we finish at three and then you get six weeks holidays. It's a great, you know, you've got to make sure you're prepared for the next day. You've marked your book, you know, there's that side of it as well. And also with that, I'm not prepared to miss my gym sessions in the morning and miss my sleep routine and miss I'm not prepared to do that.

1:22:45so we've got to pick and choose you pick and choose the way you live your life in that way yeah yeah thank you stew appreciate today not a problem is there anything else you want to cover or anything i don't think we don't yeah that was great yeah you sure yeah that was great thank you no problem i enjoyed it