Charles Duhigg Lost 45 Lbs on a GLP-1 | Why Food Noise Vanishes

22:11Because if you think about how much of your socialization is shaped by having a drink, then oftentimes you might have, you know, I find that I have better conversations at parties, just because I'm just a little bit more like, I don't know, because I'm a little bit more sober, right? And that doesn't mean I can't have a drink. Like, I enjoy having, I still have an occasional drink. I just have fewer drinks than I used to. It also, drinking less has also changed my sleep patterns, right? Because we do know that when you drink, that it disrupts sleep, particularly it disrupts middle of the night sleep, like sort of deep sleep and REM sleep.

22:47And so as a result, because I'm drinking less, I'm actually sleeping better. And because I'm sleeping better, I'm more focused at work. And because I'm more focused at work, it's easier to get things done, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So one of the things that's really important is that GLP-1s allow you to influence some of the keystone habits that probably influence your life if you are using them the right way. And this gets to Noom, the company I mentioned before, and apps like it, or just some structured way of changing your habits. When you use Noom or anything else, or you just have a structure that you're using, what you can do is you can identify the habits that exist in your life, right?

23:23Identifying keystone habits is actually kind of hard. Like most people don't realize that their sleep is impacted so much by drinking. But if you have a structured system, like an app that you go to that helps you track, you know, how much did I eat today? And how did I sleep? And X, Y, and Z, just simple stuff that you can input. It can find those patterns for you. And it can say, hey, look, I just want to point something out. You only had three drinks last week. And normally you have seven drinks in a week. And you said that last week your sleep was about 30 % better. And there's probably a relationship here between what's happening with your alcohol consumption and your sleep quality.

23:59So having a structured system in place, whether it's Noom or something else, that helps you become aware of the patterns in your life, that helps you see those patterns, that seems to be critical at taking advantage of this habit window when our habits become more malleable.

24:14James Altucher:So then what begins to happen? Like you mentioned, okay, so this food noise quiets down. That's a result of the peptide, the GLP-1. And then your stomach starts to shrink. Like what else is happening in your body? Okay, so a couple of things. First of all, your stomach starts to shrink, right? Your stomach is releasing food more slowly into your intestine. And so as a result, you're feeling full. You're feeling satiated longer. Your blood sugar is, again, we don't exactly, like, I'm going to say something that's an oversimplification of what's actually happening. But basically, spikes and eddies in your blood sugar become a little bit less intense.

24:51And so as a result, you have less of that, like, afternoon exhausted after a big lunch or that like, you know, the morning when you're just like, when you're like, just hungry, hungry, hungry, that tends to go away, right? Because your glucose levels are actually stabilizing. This is why they prescribed it to you as for prediabetic conditions. So that's one thing that happens. The second thing that happens inside our brain, and this is the psychological part of it, is that we start getting into what's known as stated and revealed preferences. So you can think of us all as having basically two brains.

25:24One part of our brain is the prefrontal cortex. and it's the thing that makes decisions. It's the thing that we're in touch with and we use for thinking. And that prefrontal cortex often will set goals for itself or set intentions or preferences. It will say, I want to lose 20 pounds or I want to run a marathon. But then there's another part of our brain, the deeper interior structures of our brain, parts like the basal ganglia, which is where habits live within our cranium. And it does not pay attention to what we say we want. Rather, it pays attention to what it observes about our behavior. So you might say like, I want to lose 20 pounds and I want to run a marathon.

26:04That's your stated preference. But that deeper part of your brain is looking at revealed preferences. And what the revealed preferences show is when you woke up this morning, you did not go for a run. And when you had a choice between a salad and a hamburger in the cafeteria, you chose the hamburger. So even though you say that you want to lose weight and you want to run a marathon, I don't believe you, right? I think that based on your revealed preferences, that it turns out you actually want something different. And this tension between stated preferences and revealed preferences inside our brain, that's often what makes it hard for us to act on changing our behavior in the way that we want.

26:43So what happens when we start on a GLP-1? Well, as you start on the GLP-1 and you're feeling less of this food noise in your head, and if you're using a structured system, you're starting to change your habits a little bit, and most importantly, you're just less hungry, and so you're eating slightly less in each meal, that deeper interior part of your brain is starting to say, actually, you know what? The revealed preference here is that this person actually does want to lose weight, or this person does want to eat more healthily, or this person does want to exercise. And as that revealed preference starts to align with our stated preference, it changes our sense of identity.

27:19Our brain is like a machine that uses a sense of identity to determine how to make choices. And when that sense of identity starts to shift, when my brain starts saying, actually, you are someone who goes running in the morning. You're actually an athlete. That's when my brain starts saying when I walk into the cafeteria, actually, athletes, they don't eat hamburgers for lunch. They eat a salad for lunch. And so it becomes so much easier for me to pick up that salad and ignore the hamburger because my stated and my revealed preferences have become aligned. my sense of identity has started to change.

27:49And that's what makes habit formation permanent.

27:53James Altucher:You know, that's very interesting. It makes me think, is this part of the brain responsible for the placebo effect in the sense that, let's say I start taking some drug that, like human growth hormone, I'm going to grow muscles. I'm not taking this, but let's just say. And I start thinking to myself, oh, I'm the type of person that is jacked at the gym. And then does the placebo effect kick in? Because then the revealed preferences part of my brain says, oh, he's thinking of himself as the kind of person who's jacked at the gym, so he must be an athlete. Very likely. Very likely that's exactly what's happening, right?

28:29James Altucher:I have a very powerful placebo effect whenever I take anything. Yeah, and if you know that it's a placebo, it might not have that effect. But if you think that you're taking like an actual medication, right? In studies, when they give someone a placebo, they give them essentially a sugar pill, but they don't tell them it's a sugar pill. They tell them it's the real medication. I think that's exactly what's happening is that part of your brain is saying, oh, look, James is actually giving himself a shot once a week of a GLP-1. And if he's doing that, he must be someone who actually wants to be healthier, right?

28:58Or he wants to lose weight or he wants to eat better. And so your brain pays attention to your behaviors. And I think you're right. That's part of what influences the placebo effect. I'll say there's a lot that we don't know about the placebo effect, sort of mysterious. We don't know why it affects some people more than others. But I think that you're onto something there, that part of what's happening is that the placebo is changing our sense of identity, even if it's not changing our biology.

29:22James Altucher:It's really interesting. It reminds me of, do you know Todd Herman? He wrote a book called The Alter Ego Effect. No. So he's kind of a sports coach psychologist, and he makes the point that a lot of super athletes who are at peak performance, before they go out on the field, they kind of hypnotize themselves into taking on an alter ego. So he gives us a great example. Kobe Bryant is like the black mamba, this king of the snakes. And he talks about other athletes being like Paul Bunyan or whoever. They heavily research some alter ego and then even dress like or become that alter ego before going out on the field.

30:03James Altucher:And then they perform accordingly. And I wonder if that's also trying to program that basal ganglia part of the brain. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm sure that if I was to look at what they do before a game, what I would see is I would see some ritualized behaviors that have become cues, right? Michael Phelps always stretches the exact same way before every single practice and every single race. And the reason why is for exactly the reasons you just mentioned. He's basically like going through this routine that's triggering these habits that allow him to perform well in the pool or give him a sense of alter ego.

30:38And I think one of the things that's important here is that it doesn't take a lot to do this, right? So one of the things that we know is that when you are trying to change habits, including food habits around GLP-1 use, it's really, really good to start small. It's really good to start with these micro habits. Again, this comes from the research that I was doing with Noom. They were looking at like when people were using the app, when did it seem to work? Like when did they seem to make these changes? And one of the things that they found is that by creating these micro habit challenges, small little contained habit challenges, rather than like this full lifestyle overhaul, that seemed to be particularly effective because the habits tend to compound on each other, right?

31:21Again, I eat a little bit less one day, then I drink a little bit less one day, I sleep a little bit better that night, it's easier for me to eat more healthily and go exercising the next day because I slept well. This chain reaction tends to become larger in our life if we start small. And so one of the things for people to think about when they're in this habit window, when they've started using a GLP-1, is how do I build the micro habits? What are the right micro habits to build? How do I build them and track them in a way that I feel like I can see this echo in my life? And so what micro habits were you building in that first four-month period?

31:59There's a bunch of them. So one of them is that I was definitely drinking less, right? I just had less of a craving to drink. I think another one is that I would often find myself sitting down at a table and there would be a basket of fries or something similar. And if you had asked me what I expected to happen, I would say I would just reach over and grab them and put them in my mouth without even really thinking about it. And then I'd get to the end of the meal and I'd realize I didn't grab any fries. I just never felt the urge to grab the fries. I will point out that just last week, I was still grabbing fries.

32:31Okay. Okay. And again, you're only three weeks into this, right? Like it takes a while for the GLP-1 to really like start influencing your body.

32:39James Altucher:But I have been feeling fuller more quickly. Yeah. So that's another important part. So like if I sat down, if you put a plate of food in front of me, I would eat the entire plate of food. And I have like one of my sons, even if it's a meal that he loves, he'll eat until he's full and then he'll just stop eating. Like he'll leave half the plate of food on the table because he's full. And like that, I, that never happened to me. Even if I felt full, I would continue eating. I just, I never, the idea of like, just kind of being like, oh, I'm done. I don't need any more, even though this thing is delicious.

33:15That just never happened inside my head until I started on a GLP one. And what I would do is I would sit down and start eating and I'd be like, I'm kind of full. I don't want anymore. And I would just stop eating. And again, this revealed preference, part of my brain was paying attention to actually, this is a guy who can resist the temptation of food. And that makes it easier to resist the temptation of food when your brain starts believing you're that kind of guy or woman. And so I think that's what I noticed in the first three or four months is that my behavior changed almost in ways that I wasn't I wasn't even having to choose.

33:50I wasn't having to use any willpower to ignore the French fries or use any willpower to put the half-eaten plate of food aside. And because I wasn't having to use any willpower, my brain paid attention to that. And it also gave me more bandwidth to build better habits, to build new and better habits, which is, you know, if I sit down, instead of ordering the really tasty but unhealthy thing on the menu, to order the healthier thing, to order the salad and to enjoy it just as much.

34:19James Altucher:Okay, and so then you're saying the stomach starts to shrink, but it could be that the stomach is shrinking because, not because of the peptide, but because if you're putting less food in there. Yeah, yeah, no, that's why it's shrinking. It's shrinking. The peptide does not influence your stomach size. Stomach size changes based on how much food you're actually consuming. So the peptide, it does the opposite of what I would think a weight loss drug would do, which is you're saying it slows down metabolism, essentially. It slows down the emptying of the stomach. Yeah. And metabolism is something that's slightly different.

34:50So like, it doesn't really matter. But anyone who's a biologist, it slows down the emptying of the stomach. That's the thing that it does that seems to have a significant impact in addition to other things.

35:00James Altucher:I would think a weight loss drug would speed up the burning of food in the stomach. Well, the problem is, I mean, speeding up the burning of food doesn't mean that those calories are getting consumed into energy, right? Like, yeah, so like, so like the, basically what you're trying to do, I mean, look, there's a basic math to weight loss, which is the less you eat, and the more calories you burn, the fewer excess calories you'll store as fat. And so what we're trying to do is we're trying not necessarily to like change how quickly you're burning up calories. We're trying to influence you in a way that you eat less.

35:40Because if you eat less, and particularly if you keep your energy levels as they were before, or even better if you increase them, because now you're exercising and you're lifting weights and trying to put on more muscle mass, instead of those excess calories going into fat, you just have fewer excess calories. And so as a result, you're kind of at this place where your weight maintenance is easy because you're basically burning all the calories that you are taking in as food when you take them in and they're powering you through the day.

36:09James Altucher:and so what happens at the four to six month part where suddenly it's like boom you're flushing the calories out so i don't think you're flushing the calories out i think what's happening is that in four to six months like your habits have actually changed right so there's a couple things going on first of all your stomach has shrunk because you've been eating less food and as a result you're less hungry and because you're less hungry it's easier for you to maintain like a healthy amount of food a healthy a healthy diet in addition i think oftentimes your your blood sugar has stabilized at that point.

36:39And so you're feeling less of those cravings in the morning and that post-lunch lethargy that's been influenced. And then I think the other thing that's happening is that these habits have started to change. Some of the habit changes happen without you even realizing them, right? Like again, if you're in this habit window, when your habits are more malleable, some of them will shift because your brain starts to notice, oh, he doesn't grab for the French fries. The food noise, which is the cue for eating, has been quieted somewhat. And so as a result, you're starting to execute on these new habits that you're building without you even realizing it.

37:11And I think that's what happens is that you get like all of these things on their own, they cause weight loss. If you want to lose weight, you'll start losing weight probably like this month or next month on the GLP-1. But the point at which like it starts to really become noticeable, like you see the change in your body and you see the change in the shape of your face, that just takes a couple of months because for one thing, you just got to lose some of the baby fat, right? Like you don't really see the shift until you've lost enough weight

37:41James Altucher:that you can see the shift. And that must be reinforcing to that basal ganglia, which is now it's saying, oh, he really is the type of person to lose weight. Absolutely. And it's not only the identity that's been shifting, but now that I weigh 20 pounds less, I find that it's easier to go running in the morning. And so therefore I run more in the morning. And that means I'm actually exercising more, and that improves my muscle tone, and that helps me keep off the weight, and I'm feeling healthier about myself. They all become reinforcing of each other.

38:28James Altucher:Do you stay on the GLP-1s? Is it like a lifelong drug? Okay, so here's what we know. And I keep on mentioning Noom, but a lot of this is just because it's the research that I'm familiar with. So, like, Noom did a study basically trying to figure out, like, do people have to stay on GLP-1s? Because you can actually get, you can get micro doses or macro doses of GLP-1s from Noom. They'll prescribe them to you, and then they'll give you the habit change system. And so they're able to observe what should happen. And what they find is that if you do not have a habits change structure around you, Most people at some point want to discontinue taking the GLP-1, either because they don't like giving themselves a shot every week or because it gets too expensive or they're traveling a lot more and it's just like hard for their lifestyle.

39:14So what we know is that the majority of people end up discontinuing GLP-1 use sometime in the two years after they start. And if you don't have a habit structure in place, it's very common that as soon as you discontinue the GLP-1, you start regaining the lost weight. And the reason why is because that food noise comes roaring back and you don't have any new habits. But if you do have this habit structure in place, if you've taken advantage of this habit window and you've built new habits, deliberate habits, where you're choosing, okay, here's the cue. Who's the routine? Here's the reward. I'm monitoring and I'm measuring if I'm actually doing this.

39:51I'm making little adjustments because I have this thing that helps me observe my own behavior and learn from it. If you've built these new habits, then you tend to keep off the weight much, much longer after you discontinue the medication. In fact, up to two years, we only have data basically up to two years, but a good number of people actually keep the weight off for those entire two years after they discontinue the GLP-1 because they have this new set of habits that they have built while they were on the GLP-1 itself.

40:21James Altucher:So I'm going to argue that a healthy thing would be to, when you first go on the GLP-1s, and I'm just talking about my own experience of this, I did not go on with the purpose to specifically to lose weight, but I got really paranoid that the word pre-diabetes showed up in this blood work. And this is like a pre-diabetes drug. And so I'm telling myself I'm doing this for my health. and that I'm the type of person who cares about themselves. So that's why I'm taking this. And I think I'm hoping that helps me with the kind of long-term habit formation, just that attitude. Yeah, so I think that attitude is a good attitude, but it's not sufficient on its own.

41:05You need a structure. Like you need a structure to help you understand your own habits, identify your habits. You need something that nudges you to change them a little bit, to track whether that change was actually effective.

41:17James Altucher:kids in the house and kids eat food and, you know, they eat breakfast, lunch, dinner, which is hard when you're older. How did your house change around the fact that you were forming these new habits? I mean, it didn't, it didn't change my wife or my kids' habits at all. Before I started a GLP-1, I would wake up every morning and I would have like a bowl of granola with blueberries on it. And oftentimes after I'd eat that bowl of granola, I was like, that's really, really yummy. I want a second bowl of granola and I'd have the second bowl of granola. And now when I wake up and like Like, I'm like, should I have the bowl of granola or should I have like the protein shake?

41:49And I'm like, I'll just have the protein shake. Like, that seems just as good. And I have the protein shake and I'm sort of satisfied by the protein shake. And so instead of having a bowl of granola, I'm having a protein shake. But I'm still sitting down with my kids and having breakfast with them, right? Like, it's not like they're still having granola. They like, or they don't actually like granola. They like other stuff like Cheerios and like nonsense cereals. So it hasn't really impacted. My family's food selection has not changed significantly. what I'm eating from that food selection has shifted a little bit, but more importantly, the amount that I'm eating has shifted.

42:23So I would not say that it's like something that's been disruptive for my family. I mean, what we're really talking about is just how do you curb some of the cravings? Now, I will mention, you mentioned pre-diabetic, that you did this for reasons of pre-diabetes and not weightless. So those are actually inexorably linked. I'm certain that if I was to look at your lab results, what I would see is I'd see that your doctors are saying that they feel like you might be slightly pre-diabetic because A, you're a little bit heavier than you should be. And particularly if they're measuring percent body fat versus percent muscle mass, that ratio is a little bit out of whack, right?

42:57So losing weight isn't really the goal. The goal is to have a healthy level of fat versus muscle. So actually, at this point, my weight has not decreased in a year, but I've put on more muscle mass and I've lost more body fat. And so as a result. My weight's the same, but it's like healthier weight. So one of the things that they're probably looking at is body composition. They're probably also looking at your blood chemistry and your blood chemistry is telling them that you might have too high a level of cholesterol or something like that. Something that's suggesting why they should think about prediabetes.

43:27And that is kind of weight related. So it's not really about necessarily what the scale tells you, but your weight and prediabetes are interoperably linked. Right.

43:38James Altucher:There was something in the blood. I forget what it was. Something related to insulin or something. Yeah, insulin resistance, probably. Sometimes they call it metabolic syndrome, where basically you become more resistant to insulin. And as a result, it's harder for your body to stabilize your blood glucose levels and the hunger pangs that are associated with them. Yeah. And this somehow is related to the terzep. So there's three types of GLP-1s as far as I know. There's the azempic kind, there's the trisepatide, and then there's this super one, that retro... Yeah. I don't know how to say it. So there's semiglutide, there's trisepatide, and then there's the new retro.

44:18Sometimes they call it a GLP-3 because it actually seems to affect three receptors.

44:24James Altucher:And trisepatide affects two receptors as opposed to azempic, which is one. I believe that's right. I think that's probably an oversimplification. But yes, the medications, they all have the same origin, which interestingly is the saliva of a heli lizard. That's how we discovered GLP-1s was from the saliva of a heli lizard. Because heli lizards can basically like stop their metabolism for weeks or months. And a researcher wanted to understand why. They all sort of come from the same, it's all the same basic mechanism, but they have slightly different ways in which the mechanism unfolds. So, okay.

45:01James Altucher:So after the four to six months, your stomach has shrunk enough, your habits are formed, so you start losing weight. And again, you're losing weight before the four to six months, right? Right. But the truth is that, like, if you lost four pounds this month, you wouldn't feel or look that different. Right. But if you lose... Normal volatility. Yeah. If you lose 20 pounds over five weeks, which is four pounds per week, at the end of that 20 pounds, you're going to look and feel different, right? You're going to look in the mirror and you're going to say, like, oh, I look thinner, and it's easier to go running in the morning.

45:32So it's not so much that like the drug is ineffective at the beginning. It's that it's when you start to see the real impacts because of cumulative effect that the habit change seems more real. So will you stop using the GLP-1? Yeah. I don't know. It's a really good question. I mean, I find it very easy to maintain right now, and I take a relatively low dose, and I enjoy not having that food noise in my head. But yeah, Yeah, at some point. I mean, I do find that what happens, the truth is that actually I stop all the time. Like, because the GLP-1 has to be refrigerated, if you're traveling a lot, it's very hard to sort of carry it with you.

46:10And so, for instance, me and my wife, we just went on vacation together. And so I basically didn't take it for a week and a half because we were on vacation and I couldn't keep medication that has to be refrigerated with me for a week and a half. At some point, I probably will discontinue taking it. But what is important is that I get to feel like it's a choice, right? That like I get to decide how much I want to weigh. I get to decide how physically active I want to be. And that it's the decision that reinforces that behavior.

46:41James Altucher:Have you checked other markers? Like, you know, there's tests for your biological age and things like that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I get blood work done like basically every eight weeks. So pre-GLP1 to now, how has your biological age changed? Everything's better. I don't get my biological age measured, but I do know that like, like I look at like, you know, ALT, like all the different levels of sort of the CBC that you usually get when you get a blood work plus some additional things like PSA. All of that has gotten better. So like, so basically like I was, I would say I was out of compliance in about, I don't know, probably a third of my blood tests.

47:20And I'm in compliance now for all of my blood tests. But equally importantly, before I started on the GOP-1, I would snore. And like my wife would say, like you were snoring last night. And I would wake up and I would have that kind of like, you know, that sore throat that you get from snoring sometimes. That's completely gone. Like because I've lost weight, I've stopped snoring. So yeah, in general, I would say like this has actually been like a huge health benefit for me. My cholesterol levels are better. All of my numbers have gotten better.

47:48James Altucher:You know, it's so funny because it's all related to this almost philosophical issue about who are we? What is our identity? If your prefrontal cortex says, oh, I want to have these goals. I want to lose weight. And then your other parts of your brain are saying, oh no, but that's not what your actions are. You really want this. So I'm going to do this for you. And then the drug comes in and sort of tries to moderate this fight. It's all these different parties involved in making up this question of who we are. Yeah, absolutely. You know, and then the idea that in our brain really is just, you know, a neuron firing is just an electrical impulse.

48:31James Altucher:And now, you know, Roger Penrose wins the Nobel Prize for saying, you know, consciousness is actually this quantum artifacts that happen outside of our brain. It's all these, you know, we're just kind of this hodgepodge of chemicals and quanta and electrical signals. Yeah. And then, And then, of course, weight affects us, and alcohol affects us, and smoking affects us. That's exactly right. So think about just sugar, right? So sugar actually influences how we think about ourselves because it gives us more energy. So one of the reasons why people like sugar is, first of all, our taste receptors sort of find some pleasure from it.

49:07But you can get that same taste receptor. If you take Splenda and you spread it across your tongue, you'll get the same taste receptor experience that you get with sugar. So why do people like sugar instead of Splenda? It's because it gives us this energy. It's very calorie dense. And in fact, it's a type of calories and a type of energy that hits our blood system very, very quickly. And so as a result, we get this little boost of like, oh, I've got more energy and that feels good. So we've been influencing our behavior and our self-concept with food and drink and all kinds of things for essentially since we evolved to be human.

49:43What's different now is that we just understand more about how it works. We can be more deliberate about it. And we can understand and recognize these opportunities to change the behaviors in our life, to change the habits in our lives in a way that makes them sustainable even when the sugar ends or the GLP-1 ends or we drink fewer drinks. We can choose to be the person we want to be rather than relying on the influence of outside substances.

50:09James Altucher:Well, Charles, this has been great. And of course, you're the first person I wanted to talk to about this. You're obviously the author of the huge bestselling book, Power of Habit, Charles Duhigg, and also the book, Super Communicators, which we've spoken about. And I'm just beginning on this peptide slash GLP-1 journey. I've been taking other peptides, but I'll talk about that some other time. But the GLP-1s have been described to me as a miracle drug, and I'm just beginning it and trying to understand. And like I said, I had the misfortune of thinking they had kicked in full force when my stomach exploded last week.

50:46James Altucher:But that turns out to have been a side effect of getting COVID. But I think I lost about 12 pounds that day anyway. Oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah. Well, let me know how it goes. First of all, thank you for having me on. It's always like such a treat to get a chance to talk to you and spend some time with you. But secondly, like, let me know how it goes. And in fact, I will advise, it's worth keeping, whether it's through Noom or another app or just a food journal, it's worth keeping track of what you're feeling and how your behavior is changing. Because I think what you're going to see is oftentimes we don't recognize behavior change as it occurs unless we're actually forcing ourselves to pay attention to it.

51:27And so my guess is that over the next two or three or four months, you're going to see more behavior change than you would have noticed just on your own if you weren't tracking it.

51:36James Altucher:And I have noticed some things, but A, I think the placebo effect is very strong with me. Like as soon as I take something, all the symptoms work immediately on me, even though that's not supposed to happen, like as I'm so excited. But also, and then combined with that, I got this COVID, which does this extreme effect on your body. So like when I didn't want to finish a meal, the other day, it could have totally been a result of being incredibly sick. Yeah. But I would say now, I'm three weeks in, I'm getting over this virus, and now we'll really start to see. Yeah. We'll have you on in like six months, and we'll see if I'm on that.

52:12James Altucher:I love it. Keep me updated. I want to know how it goes. Definitely. All right. Thanks so much, Charles. I appreciate it. Thank you.

52:50James Altucher:IoT Show

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