Comedy, Horror, and NYC Real Estate: The Feature Film | Sally Struthers & Allan Piper

27:33I think everyone on set, it was the first day back after having put the whole film on hold for over a year because of COVID-19. And I think all of us were nervous just to be in a room with other people again and to have that first day be with an absolute icon of the American screen. I think a lot of us felt very intimidated going into that day. Sally was just such a joy to work with and put everyone at so much ease immediately that I think in some ways the positive attitude that Sally engendered on that first day of returning to shooting post-quarantine really set the mood for the entire rest of shooting the movie.

28:27And I think it really did carry over into keeping a positive and happy set throughout the whole process. Well, you talk about me like you and Jennifer Lee Houston, your wife, are ogres. And that I came in like little Miss Mary Sunshine with a straw hat and gloves and made everybody sing Getting to Know You. No, you set the mood on the set. You're highly intelligent, so you kind of scare me. and you know a lot about a lot, which makes me feel small, but you don't pontificate like my dead ex-husband. And I like saying my dead ex-husband. Is that evil? That is a little evil, but we'll forgive you.

29:11You're just a joy and a pleasure and you're enthusiastic like a 14-year-old boy. And then let's talk about your wife. She is hilarious and she is sarcastic and I love really intelligent sarcasm. And she is a high energy gal. I try to keep up with her when I'm around her, but I'm old enough to be her mother. So it's not easy. So you guys set the tone on the set. I just walked in and I think my one contribution to speaking of the set, which was a storage unit in a storage facility, was that I did say to you, Alan, because I'm a very literal human being. I said, if I live in here, I think that we need a bucket and a roll of toilet paper in the background to show that I really live in here.

30:00Because right now there's a chair and there's a lamp and there's some boxes. But you've got to, you know, human beings go to the bathroom. Sure enough, that's bucket and toilet paper is in the scene, too. And the shot of it got a big laugh in Coney Island. You know, that's a really good point. Like, Alan, why didn't you think that where is this person who lives in a storage unit going to go to the bathroom? Well, I'm glad that Sally thought of it. Yeah. I always wondered, like in Star Trek, where everybody went to the bathroom, because it didn't seem like anybody needed to go to the bathroom in the 23rd century.

30:34Yeah, and it doesn't seem like those outfits lend themselves to getting in and out of for that purpose. I think they're all catheterized. Maybe. Yeah, I always wondered about that. But, you know, Alan, were you a fan of the horror genre before you wrote this? Yes, yes, very much. And I feel like we're at a moment of increasing love for horror. And I think that often happens historically at moments of great social turmoil, that when we are processing real life horror that is often too hard to face, having a facsimile of horror, I think, makes it easier to deal with. very much watching horror movies became my comfort place during 2020.

31:20And I think that's probably true for a lot of other people. What else you should know about Alan and I found out. So a couple of years ago, I searched around and was able for his birthday to find a couple of things for him that luckily he didn't have because he collects things from Coney Island from way, way back. And they've got wonderful things all over their apartment in New York that are Coney Island. And so obviously that doesn't surprise me that when he wrote this film, Coney Island was part of the setting of the film. I could think of only one other movie that is known for being set in Coney Island, which is the Woody Allen movie.

31:57I'm forgetting now. Wonder Wheel. Yeah, Wonder Wheel. Okay. Yeah. And what's the one where, is that the one where the roller coaster like is going through his house when he's growing up? Oh, Annie Hall. Annie Hall. Yes, and I believe that was the original Thunderbolt, which isn't there anymore. But there are a lot of great Coney Island movies, and so I'm just honored to add our film to the list of Coney Island movies. James Allen turned his camera toward the crowd that was there for the Coney Island Film Festival right after this group in this room had all watched the film. And he had them all, you know, yell and say hi to me, which meant an awful lot.

32:45But there was a person there that made an interesting comment to him, which Alan shared with me. And Alan shared with me the fellow's name. And of course, Alan being an expert on all things Coney Island, knew who this guy was, was thrilled he was there. And I had to look him up on my phone, which took me an hour and a half because I don't do buttons. His name is what, Alan? Zamora the Torture King. So I love film festivals and the world has great film festivals. I really do think the Coney Island Film Festival is the coolest festival in the world because it's the only one where you can see these great movies and then walk outside and ride a ride or see a sideshow performer.

33:29So one of the movies at the Coney Island Film Festival, The opening night movie was a documentary about the Jim Rose circus in which Zamora the Torture King was a performer. And Zamora the Torture King was present at the festival on the opening night as part of the opening night festivities. He took a sharp metal wire and drove it into his mouth and out through the bottom of his chin. Because really, in the tradition of Houdini, he is a mind over physical matter genius. Anyway, I didn't realize he was in the audience for Evil Sublet. But afterwards, he said that it was very, very strange in a good way.

34:09And coming from that performer, that was a comment that really warmed my heart. How do you do that? How do you put a blade through your mouth and out your chin? Is there an area where there's less flesh and less nerves? You know, you would have to talk to him about the process of doing it. And that would be a great episode to have him. This is what I want to know, Alan. I want to know, did he walk up to you and you immediately knew who he was by looking at him? Or he said to you, you know, hello, Alan, I'm Zamora, the torture king. Well, I knew who he was. I knew who he was because he's famous.

34:52And I also knew who he was. if I had not already known who he was, I had seen the documentary the night before. So I did know who he was. But yes, I was very happy to hear what he had to say.

35:21and so alan i'm just curious you worked on the obama campaign you worked on several campaigns i was reading that in 2016 you were in hillary clinton's rapid response team this is i know this is not about evil sublet, but I'm just curious from your perspective, what do you think went wrong? Like in the summer of 2016, Hillary Clinton was winning. She had a very visual imagery. Like, do you want Trump's hands on the red button? And then what went wrong after that, do you think? All right. Well, everyone has a theory and I'll tell you that in a race, in a presidential race that comes down to just under 80 ,000 votes, everyone's theory is correct because that is such a small number of votes that anything, any one difference, if you want to say, you know, if you want to say, oh, it was the Comey letter.

36:11Yes, absolutely. That was enough to swing 80 ,000 votes. Was it sexism? Absolutely. Sexism played a role. That's enough to swing 80 ,000 votes. You know, was it not enough time spent in a given swing state? You could second guess a million things. I think any one person who worked on that campaign, I made videos that were seen by millions of people. If the videos I made were seen by millions and the vote came down to 80 ,000, is there something I could have done better that could have been the difference for 80 ,000 votes? This gets to actually a problem that there's increasing interest in, which is trying to reform the electoral college.

36:48We are having ever more close elections decided by a narrower margin where the actual election isn't very close. Hillary Clinton won the popular vote by more than 3 million votes. The margin of victory, thanks to the Electoral College for Joe Biden, was also very narrow. It was, I believe, an even narrower margin of victory, and yet it was an even wider margin of victory in terms of the popular vote. So the problem is that the way the Electoral College creates a system now where 80 % of the country, our votes don't matter as much as a handful of voters in swing states. I realize I've taken us a little bit off topic.

37:32No, no, I took us off topic. Well, so there's a growing movement for, it would be very difficult to abolish the electoral college because that requires a constitutional amendment, but there is a growing movement for what is called the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact. And that is an agreement between states that would award that state's electoral votes. If enough states sign on to the compact, they would all agree to submit all of their electoral votes to the winner of the national popular vote. Already, there are a lot of states that have already signed on. If enough states signed on to reach 270 votes, we would never again have a president take office without winning the popular vote, as has already happened twice this century.

38:19we would no longer have a situation where, you know, if you're if you're a Republican in New York, your vote doesn't matter so much. If you're a Democrat in Alabama, your vote doesn't matter so much. Anyway, I've taken us down a wonky path. Sally has a comment. Yes, I have a question, Alan. What is this pact called? Say it again that people are signing on to states. The National Popular Vote Interstate Compact. What is the minimum number of states that have to sign on for it to be something that becomes an actual enacted piece of legislation in this country? It would require a few more states.

38:58It would require enough states so that their combined vote total would be more than 270 electoral votes. And where are they right now? It's a little under that. And I can point you to, if you want to find out more about this, Inequality Media and Robert Reich, with whom I work, have just put out a video on the topic. And so people who want to learn more about the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact can check it out there. But Alan, let's say I lived in Wyoming and Wyoming was part of this. Wouldn't I feel that, oh, my vote now really is meaningless? You know, some people are making that argument, but as it stands now...

39:39Doesn't it make, if this comes into being, doesn't it make everybody's individual vote more meaningful because it will be the popular vote that elects. Okay, that's a point. That is what I would argue. That's what a lot of people who support this argue. Virtually all states have a winner-take-all system with their electoral votes. So if you're in a state and you cast your vote for the loser of your state, your vote is effectively thrown out. Your vote doesn't go into the pool because all of the electors, even if it's just by a narrow margin. As it stands now, as it stands now, as the Electoral College.

40:17But if this will act, your individual votes will count. Yes. And it is, I mean, at the moment, at the moment, the only presidents this century who have won without winning the popular vote were Republicans. So at the moment, at the moment, one could say, oh, well, this favors Democrats over Republicans. this favors democracy it uh the the loser the person the person who did ideally in a democracy the person who wins should be the person who got the most votes uh there may be more people identifying as democrats now there may be more people identifying as republicans in the future we should taking party out of it we should if we believe in democracy we should want the winner of the most votes to be the one who's elected.

41:04And after that election, can I ask, were you really depressed?

41:16I've been on winning presidential campaigns and I've been on losing presidential campaigns. It feels better to win, but I wasn't depressed for myself so much. It's painful to put in a lot of work for something and have it not pay off. But, you know, I'm in a place of privilege. I'm a college-educated white man. I was not depressed for myself. I was depressed because the things that came to pass were the things that we'd predicted. We predicted that the president would weaponize immigration policy in a way that would tear families apart. And that is exactly what happened. we predicted that the president would appoint judges who would strip away reproductive freedoms.

42:03And that is what has happened. And again, that's not something that is going to affect my body. So I am not depressed for myself. I am depressed for the state of rights in our country. And we also predicted that at a moment of great national crisis, that president would not be able to rise to the occasion. And the sad truth is, no matter who was president, COVID would have had a devastating impact on the country. But we specifically had a president who concealed the dangers that were being made aware, that he was being made aware of by his own security team, who hampered the ability of public health officials to get the word out about those dangers, undermined calls for wearing of masks and social distancing.

42:54And there have been studies that show that a large percentage of the deaths that occurred in 2020 could have been averted had there been a strategic response as opposed to an impulsive, ego-centered response to the crisis. So that's the thing that's depressing to me, not that the work that I did didn't pay off. James? Yes, Sally Struthers. I always wanted to say that. Oh, I'm glad you did. Because a lot of people come up to me and say, aren't you Sally Field? Anyway, now do you see, after hearing Alan speak, why if you had to measure the stress in the room, the first moments that I started shooting my small part in his film, I was frightened and nervous because Alan is so aware of everything that's going on and so well-spoken and such a high IQ that I just feel like, where's Waldo?

44:03I was just thinking that while he was talking, like, oh, this guy really not only knows a lot, but the way you said it, Alan, was compassionate without being overbearing. It was good. Well, I've had the good fortune to be in the room with people who are smarter than I am at some key moments in history. And so I'm just sharing what I've gleaned. But Sally, I'm very sorry if at any moment you felt intimidated because I have just such deep admiration for your talent. And James, I want to say that, you know, I don't want to reveal the twists that are involved with Sally's character, but her performance and the surprises that she brings to her performance, there were moments where I had to bite my hand to not laugh and spoil the take.

44:58And then there were other moments where I was tearing up because of the poignance that she brought to the role. Well, just the fact - Sally is a national treasure and everyone should want to work with her. And I'm just incredibly lucky that she was a part of our project. Just the fact, Sally, that you play someone who lives in a storage locker, that's enough to get me to see the movie. Because I often thought when I first was in New York City and it is so, all anybody talks about in New York City, particularly young people is, how am I going to live here? Where am I going to live? What do you know of an apartment?

45:32Can I find an apartment? It's impossible to find apartment. Is there a roommate? Is the area good? Like my kids are going through this. They lived in the East village. Now they're both living in Brooklyn. It is hard. I lived in, I lived in the Chelsea hotel when I first got to New York. And I, but before that, I actually, I lived in Astoria a little bit and it is hard. And there's so much to deal with this. New York city is a hard place to live with, particularly when you're, when you're young. I just wanted to say, about Alan talking more than once in this interview so kindly and adoringly of me that who's missing on camera and who's missing being spoken about more is his wife, Jennifer Lee Houston, who is quite a phenomenal woman and she deserves to be interviewed more than me.

46:23She's in almost every shot of this film and she does a bang-up job And this film was shot, you know, so quickly because of budget restraints. And she just didn't fail her husband or any of us. And I wish she was here. Alan, can you speak adoringly about your wife, the way you speak about me, but even more so? Let me ask, because in the trailer, by the way, she's hilarious. Like, just her timing, everything. But how did you and Jennifer meet? You know, we just, it's not a great story. We met at a friend's party. You meet everyone at parties. Yes. Apparently, I meet everyone who's important in my life at parties.

47:08We met at a party, and it was basically love at first sight. And I was a real jerk to my oldest friend that night because I was at the party. my oldest friend was at the party, someone I've been friends with since third grade. I sat down at the dinner table. It was a dinner party. I sat down at dinner next to my wife, my future wife, Jen, and my oldest friend was sitting at the end of the table to my left. And I was just so taken with this woman. I just turned my back on my friend, literally turned my back on my friend and i just uh i just talked to uh to jen all night and i guess my friend uh talked to no one uh that night yeah but your friend knew you know the rules are the rules you you you give your boy uh a chance there to not talk to you if he's got something going on so that's the rules i think he's forgiven me because his wife uh is uh is one of the four producers on the film his wife, Beth Ann Mestromarino.

48:14And he actually, my friend Mike Wojtko was involved in one of the more difficult scenes. So I think he's forgiven me for that. I think since I married the woman that I was talking to that night. But what Sally is saying is true. Jennifer is extraordinary. And she does every range of emotion in this movie. She is, her character is put through kind of literal hell. And she is funny. She is poignant. She is driven to tears. She is driven to screams. And she's so strong. Yes. And she's a musical performer. She sings multiple songs in the movie. Wow. So it is, she had in her own right made a name for herself as a viral performer performing, well, I guess everything comes back to politics.

49:10She did political song parodies during the Trump presidency that got many millions of views. And that's what a lot of viewers know her best as. Where did she do them? Like on YouTube or TikTok? Yeah, on Facebook and Twitter. Yes. So if you look for things like crime after crime or a pathological liar, you'll find many tens of billions of views videos that she's done. She is an extraordinary performer. So what's next? Now that you have won an award, you're probably going to be at other film festivals. What's next? Do you release this independently? Do you try to sell it to a Netflix? Does a studio pick it up?

49:54What happens next to a movie like this? We're going to be playing at a number of festivals. The next one will be the Grossman Fantastic Film Festival in Slovenia next month. Slovenia! Slovenia, yes. Maribor, the only city I know of in Slovenia? No, no. And I'm not sure how to pronounce the name of the city where it is, so I'm not going to butcher it. So that is the next festival on our agenda. We're going to play at a number of festivals. and then we will soon be able to make an announcement about a distribution deal. And the goal is for the film to ultimately be widely available for people to see and people who follow us, people who follow Evil Sublet on social media or go to evilsublet.com will be able to find out when they can see it.

50:48James, you have to ask Alan to tell you about how he got extra funding for the film. I saw there was kind of like almost like a Patreon-like page, but tell me, Alan, how did you get the final funding for the film? We got a fair share of the budget from the offer that anyone who donated over$20 could have their face turned into a ghost in the movie. Oh, that's great. That's brilliant. This face, that's an obvious face. But in the movie, we might have like in the shadows a face that you don't notice right away. So we have over 200 hidden ghostly faces in the movie. I'm happy we did this for several reasons.

51:31There's the logistical reason that it helped us pay for making the movie, but also I like that the people who contributed to the movie are literally a part of it, but also it's pretty darn creepy. When it was premiering at the Coney Island Film Festival last week, there was one moment where I'm sitting near someone and I know that there's been this face in the background the whole time. It's in the middle of the scene and then somebody goes, and then they just noticed that a face was there the whole time. And there's something very disturbing about a face having been there that you didn't notice right away.

52:10Wow. Well, I can't wait to see it. When do you think I'll be... I tried to get a link because we were doing this podcast. I tried to get a link to it, but you guys said, no, not available. When can I see this movie? Well, you're in Atlanta. Hopefully we'll be coming to a festival in your neck of the woods soon. And then hopefully before too long, we'll be able to make announcements about when and where people can see it, either in theaters or on streaming services. I can't wait. And it's Evil Sublet, Alan Piper, Sally Struthers. You've been winning awards. It's been getting buzz. I really look forward to it.

52:47It sounds like I saw, I love the trailer. I love the concept having been involved and looking for apartments many, many times for decades in New York City. Sally, I would like to ask one more question just on your career. And this is an odd question, but you've had such a storied and again, iconic career. And this is gonna sound like a weird question, but at what point do you think you were the most depressed in your career? And how did you deal with that? Well, I've got to admit that when I was finished filming All in the Family, I did eight seasons, as did Rob Reiner. Our contracts were up. We both chose not to renew.

53:26And then I, in real life, gave birth to my daughter. And she was three years old when CBS decided to go ahead and put a Gloria sitcom on and place it on the same night and the next half hour after Archie Bunker's Place, which Carol Carol O 'Connor was doing when when Jean Stapleton had finished her contract and didn't renew. And there was just Carol O 'Connor willing to play Archie a little more. And so they moved him from that empty house to the bar and made him the owner of the bar called Archie Bunker's Place. So they position Archie Bunker's Place in the first half hour. And then following that on CBS was Gloria.

54:11And Gloria was doing very well. but the executives I call them the suits you know a bunch of business people who get to make artistic decisions but they graduated from college with business degrees they're not artistic people they're numbers crunchers and so Carol didn't want to play Archie anymore he'd been doing it for 10 or 11 years he was done so they literally threw the baby out with bath water They said, well, we don't care to keep Gloria on the air since we don't have Archie Bunker's place to lead in. We won't put it on all by itself to see if it still holds its audience. We're just going to take Sally off too.

54:51And I have to admit that I was terribly depressed about not being given a chance to see if I could fly on my own without the lead in of Archie Bunker's place. That was a bitter pill to swallow. But as you can see, I'm still here. I'm still working. I never stopped working. How did you bounce back emotionally from that? Well, I had a daughter at home, a little tiny girl, and I'd just been through a divorce. My husband and I divorced when she was not even one. So that occupied all my time and gave me great joy. I mean, life does always give you the yin with the yang. You just have to wake up and realize it.

55:31So that might have been depressing career-wise, but I had wanted to be a mother terribly. and there was my beautiful baby girl and that brought me great joy. You know, you have two girls. Yeah, well, thank you for that answer. And thank you, Alan, for coming on the podcast and Sally for coming on the podcast and Evil Sublet. I've never really been a big fan of the horror genre, but I absolutely cannot wait to see this given how you guys have been describing it, given what I've read and what I've already seen. I cannot wait to see this Evil Sublet. I hope you get on Amazon or Netflix at least because that's mostly what I watch.

56:07I watch Apple Plus also and HBO Max, all the other streaming services, actually. So please get somewhere or be in the movie theaters anywhere because I want to see this now and send it to my daughters too. Thank you so much. Thank you for having us. And thank you for those words. Thank you, James. Thank you, guys. Thank you. Oh, my gosh, Gloria.

56:35Thank you.