Fab 5 Freddy: How Hip-Hop Was Born

24:43James Altucher:What is the art you're trying to develop? Did you see an evolution, for instance, of Grandmaster Flash developing his musical approach over time?

24:53Fab 5 Freddy:You know, I was always encouraged by the grassroots support that I saw that was there. The kids that would come out in the areas where this was developing, three, four, five, six hundred people out in the parks, at jams, at the early parties. And so when other friends of mine were like, oh, man, that shit is garbage. That's those wild ghetto kids or whatever. I loved the energy of it. And I saw that this is attracting kids and people are coming to this. I knew there was something there that could develop into something. I had no idea 50 years later, global culture, like people that can't read English were able to understand the messages.

25:40Fab 5 Freddy:in these very heavily worded raps, but people could feel the vibes and they got it. That still blows my mind to this day. And the way the culture works, especially people in seriously distressed, poor, sometimes bombed out, war-ridden environments, use this culture in a way that it was initially put together. Like when the South Bronx, when people that own building in the South Bronx were literally burning them to the ground to get insurance money so they can cash out. And you had block after block in the South Bronx that literally looked like it had been blitzed with bombs. I see that go on in other places around the world, and I'm amazed.

26:27Fab 5 Freddy:It's like, oh my God, this is so much resembles what it was in its humble beginnings. So there's something super special in that that just is still quite astonishing considering the humble beginnings in New York. Like nobody was thinking this far. People were like, look, I'm somebody in my neighborhood. I'm somebody on my block. I want you to know I exist. You know, here's that painting I just made. Look at it. Even though it might get wiped away the next day. It was all about, you know, just here I go. I exist. Check me out.

27:02James Altucher:I love that as like almost principle number two here, which is that I want you to know I exist. So whether it's a tag in graffiti or it's, you know, again, all these initial rappers describing essentially where they came from. yes i'm wondering and also not only where they came from geographically but hey we have roots in jazz or you know some other forms of music or graffiti or dance or whatever and or or just the party scene like you say in the in the bronze when it was going through these hard times just four three four hundred kids in a park making a beat but i'm wondering like like you see with the particularly this initial crossover rap and even the crossover hip you know graffiti and and dance, you don't see as much anger culture as one would have predicted in the beginning.

27:50Let's say you had in the late 60s, you have Martin Luther King dying, Malcolm X being

27:56James Altucher:shot. You were there at Malcolm X being shot. You know, great story in the book. My dad. My dad was there. Yes. Yeah. Your dad was there. So why isn't there more anger? Like, okay, take the Sex Pistols and Punk. There's anger culture in that. Yeah, and we don't even know what they're angry about. They have nothing to be angry about. But you guys should have been angry, and I feel like it's not there. I wonder if it normalized the anger, the way TV and Hollywood normalized the black protest movements with the Mod Squad, which was like this fairy tale of black anger in almost like a silly drama.

28:35Fab 5 Freddy:Wow, wow, very clever. Yeah, I did catch a little bit of the Mod Squad, but yeah, that was interesting. You know, good points, man. And in the beginning, it was all about throw your hands in the air and wave them like you just don't care. It was a party vibe, and I was into it. But at a point, and I say this in the book, I knew that at some point, because it was a lot of fairy tales and very beginnings of rap. It was fairy tale. It was just fun. Like, you know, the rhymes didn't make much sense, but it felt good rhythmically. It felt like a good party way to, you know, a crowd, participation. all that stuff was in full effect.

29:13Fab 5 Freddy:And at a point, I remember saying to myself, you know, this is dope, but if somebody could make a record that really says something that addresses the realities of what people are going through. Because in the 70s, as you point out all the time, and I point out to younger people, almost every soul, R &B, whatever the genre was called, funk, there was at least one song that addressed the kind of ain't no stopping us now or a positive Marvin Gaye. There were at least one song oftentimes that had an uplifting kind of in sync with what those times were about, those times where people protest. So everybody saw that and knew it was needed as there was sort of a cultural revolution happening.

30:00Fab 5 Freddy:And then rap developed it organically on its own. And I directed one of the first videos of an artist that was about that. and that was the My Philosophy video for KRS-One, I was trying to get to direct a video for Public Enemy. So a lot of the aesthetics that I put in the My Philosophy video, black and white footage, real raw running gun to give you the feel of how the news clips I saw growing up looked and felt, that opened up a whole period where you had what we call what was known as conscious rap. But that went along with gangster rap at the same time. And then you had guys with a sort of a kind of a hippie-esque kind of sensibility, so to speak, De La Soul and some of those groups.

30:49Fab 5 Freddy:So there were all different kinds of sensibilities going on at a time that, interestingly, was when I hosted your MTV Rap. So it was just incredible. But the way the business affects things and things do shift, people like, okay, we've heard enough of that. It's time for some of this. okay, New York, you've had your run. It's time for Atlanta, Florida, and all of that to happen. I'm just still amazed at how at times when hip hop can sometimes seem like it's kind of flat, it's not as interesting, something surprising pops up. I think the thing now, because the whole business structure is completely different, how music gets made and released.

31:33Fab 5 Freddy:It's like I like to tell people, well, that stuff is there. You just have to know how to find it. Sometimes you can just literally Google search conscious rap or whatever, and you'll find some examples, some artist that is maybe smart enough to be self-releasing his own stuff, and it's just like tapping in. That's the problem that I have is like how do I find what's happening? So I meet interesting people that are doing musical stuff. I'm like, send me some links because I don't know where to go anymore. Sometimes it's like, how do I find? Like I used to like being in New York and being tapped in, like the village voice was always a good way to know who was playing, what movies were showing and stuff like that.

32:19Fab 5 Freddy:Where's the village voice now? I mean, the village voice doesn't exist. Right. That's a problem that I have personally.

32:26James Altucher:How do you find stuff that you like now, now that you think is like at the frontier of of the art of hip-hop now well like i said it's

32:36Fab 5 Freddy:sometimes you know hopefully getting a link something hitting your timeline somebody saying oh so-and-so just dropped something that's incredible it's sometimes hit or miss and i like that but i don't because if i miss something i'm like i can't believe i didn't i used to feel like people thought oh fab is so hip he he already knows and i'll be like but dude i didn't know nobody told me oh i'm sorry i wouldn't let you know so that's a bit of a quandary i still need to find the right links to to be able to know what's going on i mean it bothers me a lot because i'm a peop i'm a person that loves film as well i used to love looking at the movies that are out Obviously, films, that's another thing that's shrinking because we all have a thousand channels and a giant TV.

33:25Fab 5 Freddy:So, you know, culture is moving aggressive, but then it affects other things that you used to take for granted. Like, I just want to go see great films, man. Where do I find out what films are showing?

33:39James Altucher:It's hard because, as you said, there's so much supply now. It's almost like the value of a movie goes down because the quality just can't stay up if you have a thousand channels releasing movies. And I wonder if the same thing is true for rap and hip-hop because you look at, let's say, there's tons of artists releasing stuff on Instagram or TikTok or whatever. A lot of it has a 90s feel to it because that was a little easier, the rap, but also a little bit more mainstream. Naughty by Nature was infinitely... They were great. Trench is a great rapper, but they were kind of very mainstream. The sound is just this great pop sort of sound.

34:17James Altucher:And I find that a lot of rap that people like on Instagram is not, you know, the beats on sync with the words. And there's nothing. They're not really playing with the form that much. But people like that because it reminds them of that 90s sound. That's a good point.

34:31Fab 5 Freddy:I'm a guy that's whatever the rap that I really, really like the most for my personal taste, lyrical skill. People that can play with the words in an interesting way is something that really amazes me. And I think an offshoot of that is the battle rap scene, which is this whole thing that grew. And it's fascinating. There's leagues, different battle rap leagues in the country, different places in the country and around the world. And other countries around the world where people just get at in each other's face and just come up with these incredible rhymes kind of battling, dissing each other.

35:06Fab 5 Freddy:And it takes a high level of skill to actually do this. and some of these guys like research this guy and it's like phenomenal like you could just stand there memorize all this stuff and just go at somebody and they come back at you and then the audience decides so that's like an offshoot of lyrical prowess that i kind of am amazed at that's a big genre you can search battle rap on youtube you'll see no end of it and so that's little things that I see come up and, you know, lo-fi hip hop is another genre that completely exists online. That's like, oh my God, like laid back, kind of not aggressive.

35:47Fab 5 Freddy:You could see the influence from tribe and native song of, you know, rappers that are not trying to scream and yell or shoot your head off. There's a whole lo-fi genre, which completely lives online. And it's pretty fascinating that it's almost like sometimes like even Nas who's he's a rapper that I love lyrical maestro I directed one of his first videos by the way for the song One Love and Nas is a successful entrepreneur and businessman so he doesn't have to make rap just to get paid but he releases albums regularly super dense lyrical masterpieces like on a level of like great literature, if you will, the way he rhymes and he drops these records.

36:34Fab 5 Freddy:And oftentimes I think of Nas the way I think of classic jazz musicians that are comfortable in the zone that they're in. They're not they don't have to think about trying to do arenas or stadiums, but they're comfortable meeting their audience in a midsize club who love what they do, who are passionate. it so it's a different way that i think it works you can find various levels of it and i think also a lot of the younger artists i think are confused i think many of them grew up wanting the proverbial record deal but then the business it's not about a record deal anymore like the the major labels have to find other ways of being viable businesses because how do rappers make make money how do you

37:23James Altucher:and pop artists make money right now. Take a quick break. If you like this episode, I'd really, really appreciate it. It would mean so much to me. Please share it with your friends and subscribe to the podcast. Email me at altitra at gmail.com and tell me why you subscribed. Thanks.

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39:44Fab 5 Freddy:Well, I think if you're on all the different DSPs from Tidal to Spotify and you figure out how to navigate them, if you figure out ways of communicating directly with your audience and selling them merch and reaching out to them, there's artists that have figured it out. I always get stuck with the names right at the tip of the moment. But occasionally you'll see these stories pop out about artists that have found ways to get to their audience, sell them the merch that'll support them in a significant way. They may not be, you know, hitting gold and platinum numbers, but if you figure out the economics and you get to those fans directly and engage with them, there's artists that are figuring out ways of earning a living.

40:30Fab 5 Freddy:And then when the summertime hits, they become weekend warriors, like out on the road, you know, playing midsize venues, oftentimes grouping up like a lot of classic rap acts who go out on the road. And you'll see them shows coming through that people get really excited about.

40:49James Altucher:So like a new rapper, like let's say, like, what's a new rapper that you really like right now? Or a hip hop artist? Doesn't have to be a rapper. Yeah. Oh, boy. This is probably a cliche question. Like, I just want to stop my Freddie thing.

41:02Fab 5 Freddy:I'm always stuck, man. I hate when I'm in an interview. I should have a list of, like, knowing that. I'm probably going to ask who I like now. But once again, these younger cats that I do like have to have lyrical kind of skills. And that's what I get attracted to. I can't think of anybody right off the top.

41:19James Altucher:You know, again, like, I'm curious really from the point of view of becoming, like, hip-hop strikes me as artistry 101. because you're like, you know, merging all these different genres and then merging that with, you know, your own musical tastes. It really, I feel like it's kind of linked hand in hand with, you know, black culture. But of course now it's around the world in every single culture. And it's, by the way, it's not just rap. Like I don't even consider Kanye West a rapper, for instance. Like a lot of his stuff is really full-scale productions, musical productions. Good point, yeah.

41:56James Altucher:You know, like becoming an artist now, So what skills do you need, you think, to really become a full artist?

42:07Fab 5 Freddy:I think having a sense of what kind of artist you'd like to be is important. Some artists wanted to emulate guys that hit unheard of plateaus. Like, you know, there are artists that have gotten wealth beyond expectation. oftentimes from other business ventures. That's pretty incredible. But I think some artists want to be really creative. Okay, Dochi is an artist who's - Love her. Thank you. Relatively new, blew me away with her skillset and her rhyme play and her cleverness with the records. I'm like, wait a minute. She said what? Mind-blowing on every track. And then when you hear about her story, how hard she wanted to make it, it just got a break remarkably and emerged with dope skills and everything put in place.

43:08Fab 5 Freddy:Like, super excited about that. She's an example. Thankfully, I thought of one. And I know more will come up and I'll be like, ah, God, I should have shared.

43:17James Altucher:She's incredibly unique also. You're right. She has a very unique style that you haven't really seen before.

43:24Fab 5 Freddy:Exactly. And that's another thing. That's a great point because the artists that really define themselves, particularly in the period when I was hosting, let's say, the six or seven years when I hosted UMTV Raps, to break through, you have to be unique in your sound and other aspects, which was what, I mean, somebody like Biz, who we started talking about initially, it was so remarkable. like not a classically handsome guy, if you will. Not that that matters, but the fact that he broke through with just so much and had people smiling and just, you know, I remember making a record like Picking Boogers and then turning around and singing like, oh baby, you got what I need, which everybody will break into a sing-along version.

44:16Fab 5 Freddy:They love it so much. such a special, unique artist that you cannot compare to anybody. And the artists that defined the genre, particularly in that period when I hosted your MTV Raps, were all genre-defying and carved out a unique mold. I mean, there's a lot of younger artists who sound very similar, who have that current kind of style of rapping, which is not about heavy lyrical flows, but it's very stylized. it's really the big deciding factor is who stands the test of time and like what stuff cuts through you know that you go back and listen to and says oh man this is still incredible to listen to this stuff 10 or 20 years later that's what you'll know and you'll remember like there were trash records coming out back in the days you know that we don't remember or care about but there's a significant amount of artists who did do fantastic stuff, who did, you know, cut through.

45:19Fab 5 Freddy:So it ain't easy.

45:21James Altucher:It seems like a lot of the ones that had a philosophy behind, like, you know, you mentioned, you know, Public Enemy and KRS-One, they kind of were the first, even though you have the earlier stuff like The Message and New York, New York, which was very much about the reality people were going through. Yeah, Public Enemy, you know, Chuck D is almost, it's like protest rap. KRS-One is like protest. And then you go into like, you know, Tribe, De La Soul, Black Sheep. They're more kind of relaxed, laid back, chill. Yeah, exactly. And then it gets more pop with like, you have Naughty by Nature and all those guys.

45:57James Altucher:And then you have again, like kind of hardcore like Wu-Tang Clan. And it just kind of evolved from there.

46:03Fab 5 Freddy:There you go. But I just wanted to add, and thanks for mentioning the message because when I talked about knowing that or hoping that a record would come along that really speaks to the issues that people could relate to, like a lot of 70s records I mentioned had at least one song. The message was that record. The message was the record. When I heard that, I was like, oh my goodness, it hit so hard and it spoke exactly to how many people live. So that was a breakthrough that opened up and showed that the genre could go there as well, which something I was hoping would happen. And when it did happen, it felt right.

46:43Fab 5 Freddy:And I mean, the one thing that we could be sure about, because the form is still so inviting, you don't need to have this perfect pitch of a singing voice to be able to express yourself. So the thing that I still love about rap is like, you can say things in the genre and if you put it together right it can cut through in some form of fashion like it may go viral on some social media platform you may not sell a million kazillion billion records but you can reach people if you say the right thing and then i'll it'll hit me and i'll share it with you and you'll share it with some other friends the fact that that still happens is still kind of like amazing.

47:32Fab 5 Freddy:And so I'm confident that things like that will continue to happen. But the whole structure of the business is so crazy and confusing. And with all this new technology coming in and AI now being able to create music that sometimes is pretty surprising and incredible, but it's good that we know, okay, this is AI. But also what's happening is people like Deriza and producers that are super skilled are using it to help their production process. It's a lot more complicated than when sampling was introduced. And a lot of people were, you know, a lot of musicians in air quotes were like enraged about this idea of sampling.

48:17Fab 5 Freddy:And then they began to see how people that are creative can use it in creative ways. And Public Enemy was a great example of that. I mean, you know, N.W.A. and the production of Dr. Dre just wanted to push it and take it to another level, which was incredible to be in the studio and watch Dre work. And also I was in the studio watching the Bomb Squad work on Public Enemy's records because I was campaigning and lobbying those guys to let me direct a music video for them before there was a URMTV raps. and the people from Jive Records heard that I, and they said, oh, wait, he'd be perfect to direct the KRS-One video, which I got to do and that was that.

49:02Fab 5 Freddy:Now,

49:03James Altucher:and this, you know, your career was sort of like this interesting comedy, like you were involved in the scene from day one, but then of course Blondie, you know, Fab Five Freddy told me, Everybody's Fly, Rapture, one of the greatest, you know, or most popular songs of all time, like your name is immemorialized forever. And then of course, Yo MTV Raps. Do you ever resent a little the direction rap and hip hop's taken where you have guys like Drake or 50 Cent making hundreds of millions of dollars? Like all these rappers from like the 00s, that was like the peak of making money. And you were like maybe 15 years too early.

49:42Fab 5 Freddy:Oh no, once again, for me, my focus wasn't just on money, if you will. And I think that sometimes can be looked at as part of the problem. If artists, you know, want to make music to be remembered, to kind of, you know, kind of affect the times that we live in, then that's something that some artists want to do. Some artists want to make a lot of money. But I think you've got to, at the core, you've got to really be able to connect and continually kind of put out incredible stuff. I mean, most of the time, there are incredible one-hit wonders that have stood the test of time. But I think to really have a shot at hitting a legacy, legendary, or whatever you want to term it, you've got to be able to do it again and again and again.

50:40Fab 5 Freddy:And that's what the true great ones have done. They could replicate it and figure out what twists and turns are needed so they can continue to have an impact. I mean, nobody's been able to do it forever and ever and ever and ever. But we look back at true artists. And when I say artists, anybody that gets a record deal is so interesting to me being an actual painter and an art maker and having reverence for the term artists in the music business right next door to me. anybody that gets signed is referred to as an artist but when you really understand and i'm and i know you do what a real artist are or what a real artist is and and who real artists are you right away know the people that really carved out unique spaces and they will stand the the test of time because they were like nobody can nobody can touch them you can't get near it look Look what they did.

51:36Fab 5 Freddy:Look how consistent they were. Look at the levels, how they almost exceeded what they did the first time, which was incredible. And maybe on the third album, they even went farther. Those are the people that stand the test of time in the truest sense of the word. There may be other people that made more money and whatever it is, but in terms of really carving out a space in that big rock of legacy, you've got to be consistent and really hit hard multiple times.

52:11James Altucher:Do you think artistic ability declines with age? Because you look at like, maybe you have to be kind of hungry and really connecting with what people are most sensitized to right now. Take a look at Chuck D. Obviously, he's a great artist, but it's not like every year he's putting out a new album and he hasn't put it out. I mean, maybe he does even, but I don't know about it. What happens to artists as they age?

52:41Fab 5 Freddy:I don't know. I mean, shit, you know, I'm an artist that has, you know, grown up, grown up, you know, growing older and all that good shit. It's incredible. It's an honor to actually still be here. I've watched a lot of friends, you know, pass too early, if you will. But tomorrow's not promised to any one of us. But once again, if you're in that zone where you're focused and you're locked in and you're clear on your creative path, then you continue to actually do it. And you can defy time if you stay locked in. And we could just look back at who's been able to stay locked in and to continue to create.

53:22Fab 5 Freddy:Clearly, some people hit a certain age and they want to kick back and put their feet up and reminisce about their journey and how they got there. And then others want to keep going until the wheels fall off. and they may hit, they may not hit. Because once again, we're in such unique and different times where the whole structure, I mean, in the last 30 years or so, we went from like, well, vinyl ended, then CDs came in, and then DVDs came in, and all of that stuff is gone now. Like you can't put your hand, even though there's a little bit, you know, people buy a little vinyl and I'm hearing CDs come back and cassettes are gone.

54:08Fab 5 Freddy:That is kind of shocking that we're living through an era when all of that stuff is gone and we could snatch music and listen to a million songs on a DSP. I'm still kind of mind-blowing, but then I'm still the kind of cat that, if I like a record, I want to read all the information. I want to know who the engineer was and what studio... I mean, this is what we did years ago, listening to records. We looked at the record covers intensely that we liked. I love all that stuff and it's gone. I miss that so much. Knowing information about the music is a thing for me because once again, that's the era I grew up in.

54:48Fab 5 Freddy:But yeah, I mean, these times are crazy, man. And navigating them and figuring out how to make an impact against the tides of all the bombardment of AI this and social media that and how to navigate it, it's a minefield.

55:07James Altucher:And, you know, I used to think that, oh, AI is never going to be as good as a really great individual, let's say, artist. But I just, I heard something this weekend. I don't have the link to send you. I forget the name. It was a video of this Asian woman, almost like in a Crouching Tiger kind of movie. And she was rapping. And I thought it was from a real movie. I was like, what movie is this from? And then I read in the comments, oh, this is AI. And it was so good. I'm going to ask Jay because, Jay, maybe you've seen this video, the podcast producer. Jay, did you see this video? Even though I'm Chinese, I haven't seen that video before.

55:41James Altucher:Yeah, even though you're Chinese? Okay. You should be up on your AI Chinese peers.

55:48Fab 5 Freddy:You know, that's another wild fact of it all is the way China has really seemingly taken over the future. I've been to China a couple of times. Shanghai and Hong Kong but I'm seeing clips of cities that are like this is the true, I don't know if it's Chung I don't even have the names down where there's this one city where you're like it's a very mountainous city and they built up over everything and everything is lit up it's Blade Runner on steroids and they're producing AI that's supposed to be equal to and better than the latest nano banana and whatever else is coming out. And I've just seen some things.

56:34Fab 5 Freddy:I keep a close eye on AI, but I've seen a couple of things just recently where the subtleties and things where literally, if I didn't know it was AI, I would not have known. So we're approaching that. And it's just, this is the future that we're literally living in. And if you could do it in a good way to do good things. I think people, you know, it's almost like movies use special effects. You kind of know, but they don't have to say, oh, that was a special effect. Like that building didn't really blow up and collapse and whatever, whatever. But now AI is doing that so much better in a way. It's really a crazy time, man.

57:17Fab 5 Freddy:I don't know.

57:17James Altucher:I guess for a human to be competitive with that, you almost have to start defining your own genre. Like before the message, nobody was going to make a rap song. Let's say there was AI in the early 80s. No one was going to make the message because just the genre didn't exist. So there was nothing to learn on. And maybe you kind of have to keep on pushing the edge of what the genre is in order to be an artist now, a human artist. Yeah, well, there you go.

57:48Fab 5 Freddy:It's funny because just in thinking of that, and once again, it brings me back to the idea of sampling. one of the music videos I directed was for a group called Stetsasonic, and the song was called Talking All That Jazz. So for me, visually, I got to make a comparative between hip-hop and jazz. Like I had a jazz scene, and I intercut it really beautifully, and it really worked well. But what the song was about was Daddy-O was addressing an artist named M. Tume. He didn't call him out on the records but m2may was a musician very incredible musician and worked with miles davis and other stuff and he came out negatively against sampling in the beginning and daddy o made a record really addressing him talking about sampling it's a tool it's a it's a it's something that they use to express themselves and at the time a sampler an affordable sampler hadn't happened And people were using these big time computers, like a Fairlight and stuff like this back then, as I recall.

58:51Fab 5 Freddy:But anyway, I had to have my art department construct. So we got like a computer monitor and we had like sample flash on the screen. We attached some other gear to it to make it look really technical. But it's such a thrill when I look back at that video and I go, man, this was sampling at the beginning, fighting a battle against these naysayers. And then that became a common tool in the making of hip hop music through the 90s. It became almost like using a certain instrument, like I'm sampling this. And then, as you know, it helped people learn about other artists that have been kind of forgotten or artists that did incredible things that the producers and DJs that were digging deep in the crates revitalized a lot of careers.

59:43Fab 5 Freddy:A lot of people now know who Charles Stubblefield was. He was James Brown's drummer on some of the most incredible records sampled and used by hip-hop people tens of thousands of times, if you will. And so I love that aspect of learning about artists like Charles Stubblefield. Yeah, it's a rough time as we are in the future in a major way. Like I say in my book, the future is here. We're in the Jetsons right now. It's not easy to navigate. But I think in my book, Everybody's Fly, I capture a big chunk of the creativity right before all of this kicked in. Interesting. I mean, even as a director of music videos, when you'd go to do the final edit and post-production, you'd go to these big elaborate post-production houses that had rooms in the back that looked like you were at Mission Control or NASA, like all these big machines with, you know, all this stuff going on.

1:00:44Fab 5 Freddy:I remember talking to those guys about the fact that the ability to edit on a computer was knocking on the door. And they were like, oh, we're not worried about that stuff. Yeah, it's coming, but we're not tripping. All of those companies are gone because they didn't move quick enough to adjust to the fact that change was knocking on the door. And that's kind of the thing you have to be able to do. You have to look at this tech and stop hating on it and find out how you can turn it into a tool for yourself. And like I said, in my book, I realized that was the period where I wrapped my book up kind of just as Your MTV Raps kicks off.

1:01:25Fab 5 Freddy:And I talk a little bit about how things are changing and about to actually change, which is kind of the new space that we're living in now.

1:01:34James Altucher:It totally mirrors now. Well, look, as we all know from your book and from the famous song Rapture by Debbie Harry and Blondie, you told Debbie Harry that everybody's fly. What does that actually mean? Why is everybody fly? That's a good thing.

1:01:50Fab 5 Freddy:Thank you for asking that. So what I did tell them, and I love the way Debbie just flipped it into her own way of doing it, which was so incredible. it was part of the slang in the Bronx on the hip-hop scene were fly guys and fly girls. Hey, fly guy. Oh, if you're a fly guy, that meant you were in the scene. It was a slang that was used within rap culture. At the early rap culture, I told her that, you know, being a great, a good DJ and this guy Flash is the fastest. So Debbie remembered all that stuff. I'd be playing them some of these early tapes. and talking to Chris a lot and Debbie about how I was trying to push this stuff into, well, pop culture, if you will.

1:02:36Fab 5 Freddy:I saw that New Wave and punk rock had carved out a space that was really interesting and challenging, the pre-existing ways that rock and roll had been made. And then they felt like it got too big and guys got rock star and super rich. And I was like, I felt like The Clash and Sex Pistols and The Jam and The Ramones and these hardcore bands were really challenging that. They were really fun. And it just was like really exciting to be at CBGBs and to see The Cramps perform and almost be a little scared. Like, yo, this is wild. Like, look at this dude on stage. Like, Lux Interior. Shit was kind of scary.

1:03:15Fab 5 Freddy:but seeing the graffiti everywhere, even in the toilet, in the bathroom, I'm like, yo, wait a minute. There's a synergy between these cultures. You know, the beats and the rhythms were different, but the attitude to go up against the system, I felt it was a simpatico there. And in talking to them, Chris and Debbie, especially Chris, they really got it. And other people that I connected with, They really mentored me like, you should get some press, Freddie, and this guy is the right guy to talk to. And this is stuff that Glenn O 'Brien and these guys helped me with because they understood this mission and they wanted to help it.

1:03:56Fab 5 Freddy:But downtown New York at that time, which is what I get into in the book, was a fertile ground for people open to new things. Like, okay, I've never heard of what this rap thing's about, but come and let's do something at the Mud Club. Okay, you're one of the guys that used to spray paint everything? Oh, so you're making art now? I'd like to see it, you know? And then they say, oh, wow, I like it, and I want to write about it. And it really was key at that point that so many people had open minds and open hearts to show love. I mean, Chris Stein and Debbie Harry, they were the first people to buy paintings from me and Jean-Michel Basquiat.

1:04:37Fab 5 Freddy:We were all hanging together in the scene. and all realizing that this is a nice group of people that are open to these wild new ideas. And it really took off in ways that I didn't even realize. I mean, come on. One of my fun stories in the book is how when they first played me the songs for their new album, including Rapture, I really thought Rapture was something they were just in the studio and did this special goof version just for me to show me that, yeah, Freddie, we got all that rap stuff. here's a little fun thing we did to show you. I was completely blown away, completely flattered that one of the biggest bands in the world was playing around with this idea.

1:05:20Fab 5 Freddy:I did not at all think this was going to be a real record. And literally, I'm in France a month or two later, and I'm in a cab, actually with Chris and Tina from The Talking Heads, and this song comes on. And I'm like, I thought this cab driver, but how does this guy get a copy of this song? This song is, this is not a real record. And then they told me, oh, Freddie, this is the next single. I was like, yo, they really going to release this as a record? And it goes on to be number one. I mean, I think this is one of the big surprises in my life that just is still blown away. In fact, I talked to Flash just yesterday, and he, similar thing.

1:06:05Fab 5 Freddy:I couldn't believe that that was a real record. it wasn't the kind of rap we do, but it was great that she shouted me out, shouted Flash out, and it goes on to be a number one record that kind of let a lot of people know, hey, something's, they had not a clue, but something's coming where this is coming from. And so that was also unbelievable for me. So yeah, what does it mean, everybody's fly? Well, you know, fly guys and fly girls. And Debbie just said, well, Fab Five Freddy told me everybody's fly. What she meant was referencing the fly guys and fly girls on the hip-hop scene. I mean, that's where the term was popular.

1:06:42Fab 5 Freddy:She did her own little twist on it. I had had another rhyme, which I would do. One of the few rhymes I had to get on a mic if the occasion arose was something to the effect of, I was born and raised on the planet Mars, where I used to chill and rock with the stars. One day I got bored, decided to split. I came to Earth on a rocket ship, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was just like, hey, Debbie, here's one of the rhymes I wrote, you know, which was the fantasy way that rap, a lot of early rap was just making shit up. So I was a man from Mars. And then she freaked it and was like, the man from Mars, he's eating cars.

1:07:21Fab 5 Freddy:Yeah. That came from you? I didn't know that came from you. Man from Mars part. Yeah. I mean, I guess it's an example of how the creative process works. This is a good point to illustrate. And I read this once. It was put, it was a series of video essays to the point of everything is a remix. And basically, when you're inspired by something, which we all are, we then take that inspiration and put our own little twist on it. Like you look at something, somebody just said, man, I really liked the way he made that. And that's in you. Now I'm going to take some of that and I'm doing this now. So I've remixed it, if you will, in a classic sense.

1:08:08Fab 5 Freddy:And I've extended it and I've expanded it. I might've translated it into a new language, into a new way of looking and seeing and thinking. And that's the creative process right there. We are all inspired by something that we've preceded us, sometimes more directly. You know what I mean? And so that's it. I was like, yes, the remix. And the remix, which became this way of taking a record, adding a new beat, adding some new flavor, tweaking this, turning that up, is the process. And literally on Rapture, that's a great example. And she added some little, you know, eating, she shoots you dead and he eats your head.

1:08:49Fab 5 Freddy:I mean, what the hell? I don't know where that part came from. But it was funny, and who knew? Who knew it was going to go on to be a number one record? So that's pretty, like, fantastic. So in that regard, I'm really happy that Everybody's Fly is something that people can read and get a sense of what those times were like among a real wildly creative time, largely in New York. Unfortunately, it doesn't exist anymore because nobody— I mean, the thing that drew most of us to the downtown Lower East Side areas of New York City was we could afford to live there. You could get an apartment for under 500 bucks a month and basically live, maybe work a couple of days a week, wait tables, do whatever.

1:09:31Fab 5 Freddy:And then you could figure out how to be an artist, how to make your paintings, how to write your songs, how to do your photography. Everybody we hung with, that was the boat they were in, trying to create something, trying to get your work made. And that made it such a very special time that then, you know, in my book, it kind of comes to a close, if you will, over the whole renting situation. And the fact that it was affordable to live, that was about to change. And people, there was a riot that happened, referred to as the Tompkins Park riots. I was there that night and the police really rioted and beat the shit out of the local people that lived in the neighborhood that were just protesting, you know, higher rents and just trying to get a place to live.

1:10:23Fab 5 Freddy:And so that ends the East Village as we know it. And everything changed. A lot of those creative people, after all of that happened, they had to go to Williamsburg. Then they couldn't afford Williamsburg and they went to Bushwick. It's a sad situation that has taken over a lot of those areas.

1:10:41James Altucher:And a lot of cities in general, like cities just can't afford to live in Miami. You can't afford to live in L.A. or San Francisco. It's impossible. It's crazy.

1:10:50Fab 5 Freddy:And the model, which was really developed in New York, and I've seen it happen in the East Village, when art galleries went way further east, like what an area referred to as Alphabet City. So what we used to say back then was Avenue A, you're all right. Avenue B, be careful. Avenue C, you're crazy. And Avenue D, you're dead because it got more and more edgy and hardcore. Like the heroin addicts, the dope needles all in the street. It was a wild scene. And when galleries went past Avenue C and opened up, the real estate people said, yo, it's now time to start buying these buildings. And I didn't realize that was really a thing, but they were saying it then.

1:11:36Fab 5 Freddy:Like there were articles that these guys were speculating on the real estate. Once they saw galleries go that far, they knew it was time to start buying. That's interesting. I didn't know. Yes, it was crazy. That's when the neighborhood changed. You read in Everybody's Fly, get into that. There was a building that was the symbol of that in the East Village, a building called the Christodora House, which was a high-rise building on Avenue B off, I think, 10th Street. It was about a 10-story building that had been abandoned for over 10 or 15 years. But when all of this went down and they saw that these guys, speculators, brought that building and that building is now like a high-rent condo.

1:12:20Fab 5 Freddy:But at that time, it was unthinkable that that would turn into what it has now become. And the rents down there are higher than the Upper East Side, which used to be the most expensive place to live in Manhattan. And so it became a fact that where creatives go, where true artists and real creatives, the edgiest creatives pushing the envelope, where they go and set up camp, the real estate speculators are watching. And they then go, oh, wait, artists are going into that dumpy area? it's time to buy. And next thing you know, unless you own something, baby, you get forced out. You know, it's fascinating

1:13:03James Altucher:because that's, you know, the history of capitalism follows the history of art, basically, and there's no circumventing it. I didn't know that.

1:13:11Fab 5 Freddy:That's an interesting way to look at it, but I guess that breaks it down to its key elements, right?

1:13:17James Altucher:Well, you figure, you get like the whole industrial revolution kind of sprang out of the fingers of people like Da Vinci and Michelangelo.

1:13:23Fab 5 Freddy:you know back in the day yeah but you had these industrialists like that's another funny story in my book being an artist man you get to meet so many such unlikely people so as the fun gallery began to heat up in the east village back then once it it took off like a rocket the and collectors like from city from chase from banks and chase manhattan bank bought a couple of couple of my works and then they had a big gala for all the artists and all the kind of executives at the bank and you know the like the so at this gala their artists wore a certain color badge so you can know oh he's an artist or this person's an executive or whatever and i'm standing around with jean michelle patty astor who was our art dealer and i'm introduced to david rockefeller who was the The chairman of Chase.

1:14:17Fab 5 Freddy:And I had recently, a couple of weeks before, was a write-up on graffiti in the New Yorker. And he referenced when he saw my name, we chatted, boom, boom, boom. He says, oh, I saw you in the New Yorker. We just had this brief chat. He was walking around being really cool. And I'm like, wait a minute, David Rockefeller? This is crazy. I just chatted. That's so funny. And that was, it made me think, like being an artist, particularly in New York, man, you just, the whole cross section of connections that you make. But you're right. I mean, that's pure capitalism. I'm an artist. And that's just something you have to figure out how to navigate.

1:14:54Fab 5 Freddy:Because if you hit it, it's going to come in some ways. So how to navigate it and manage it is the thing that people need help with. Maybe that's my next book. Nah, let me stop.

1:15:06James Altucher:Well, look, Fab Five Freddy, you know, Fred Braithwaite, I don't even know how to say your last name. I never heard your last name actually pronounced before. You did a good job.

1:15:18Fab 5 Freddy:All right, good. Basically Braithwaite, but some people say Braithwaite if you add that extra I in, but you can call me Fab, you can call me Mr. Braithwaite. Nah, it's all good, though.

1:15:29James Altucher:And the book is Everybody's Fly, a life of art, music, and changing the culture. Such a great memoir about not only you, but also just kind of the birthing and history of probably the biggest genre on the planet right now. It really started right there in the South Bronx with you and others by your side. And what an amazing journey. And such a pleasure for me to talk to you and learn from you. And look, keep on keeping on. and thank you so much for coming on the show.

1:16:04Fab 5 Freddy:No, it was great to be here, man. You asked some really good questions. You got me really thinking, by the way. So I always love talking to people who basically get it. So that makes it fun. And yeah. I'm going to take that clip and put it everywhere of you saying that. Thank you so much, man. Appreciate this. Thank you.

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