Four Billionaires and a Parking Attendant: Strategies from the Minds of the Wealthy and Wise | Chris Ullman (Part 2)

28:57And so describe that, like how does he raise money? Because, okay, like I could just say when I was in the finances, it's very hard to raise money. It's very hard to hold out your hand and say, hey, can you give me some money for these reasons? David's effective at raising money. Well, I'll rattle off what I think are the key reasons. One is that he usually has a good cause. So Carlisle had good returns. So if you go to someone and say, we want you to commit to our newest fund and here are our returns, here's the team, here's the market conditions, and here's our approach, people are going to find that compelling.

29:38or if he's raising money for Lincoln Center or the Kennedy Center or the Council on Foreign Relations, he believes in it. So you really have to believe in the product or the organization or the cause or whatever it is. And he's not a back slapper. When people see him on your show, they realize that fast. And when they see him on his Bloomberg shows and all that, he's not this effervescent back slapping pole. You know, he is very measured. So David is like the facts. I'm going to tell you about the firm. I'm going to tell you about our returns. I'm going to tell you about this organization. I'm going to tell you what we're going to do with your$10 million if you give it to us.

30:20Very factual, very balanced. And, you know, I've long said that if you hired a speech coach or a presentation trainer and said, I'm going to describe someone to you. and then you described David Rubenstein without telling them that it was David Rubenstein, the trainer would say, oh, that's totally wrong. That's not how you do it. And I'd say, well, it's David Rubenstein and he's one of the most sought after speakers and fundraisers in the world. And the reason is, is because he is authentic and he breaks the mold. He's very fact-based and he's incredibly articulate and knowledgeable. You know, if he goes to a sovereign wealth fund in Abu Dhabi to go raise money.

31:05The first half hour is spent talking about the global economic and political situation. And because they want to pick his brain, because they know he interviewed Jay Powell of the Fed last week. He just talked with President Biden. He just met with Jamie Dimon at J.P. Morgan. So he is totally in the mix and he has this knowledge that's super current. So that half hour spent is demonstrating that A, he's connected, and B, that he is very knowledgeable. And then when he then pitches the latest Carlisle fund, they're going to take it more seriously. So it's a very human nature type of thing. Foreplay is always a good thing before you go in for the kill.

31:55And he understands that. What about when he was first starting and he didn't necessarily have the brand and he didn't necessarily have the president returning his phone calls? So 1987, he's managing$5 million. How does he get beyond that? That is a whole other part of his personality, which is he's indefatigable. if someone said you need to go we'll use abu dhabi again you need to go to abu dhabi five times in the next three months to get a five million dollar commitment he would do it he will fly around the world on and then he was flying commercial not private and he would do it five times to demonstrate his commitment and to make people feel comfortable so and he will do that today i mean he will fly anywhere to go seal the deal.

32:49Now that Carlisle has new leadership, they are putting David to work. They're sending him everywhere because he's one of the most notable financiers in the world. When he shows up for that family office in Taiwan or the sovereign wealth farm in Abu Dhabi, they take him seriously. But he's willing to put the work in. which gets back to that advice that he gave me for how to raise money. So he told me my approach was totally wrong because my approach was you ask once and the people either give or they don't give. And he's like, wrong, wrong, wrong, just as you said. And he said, the way you do it is you ask again and again and again and again until they give.

33:38That's how you do it. And I said, well, don't you get annoying? And he said, well, it's not like you're getting the money. A good cause is getting the money. So don't worry about that. And so that's what I did. I was as annoying as could be in terms of being persistent. And I think I tripled the amount of money I raised. So it's that indefatigable nature and the persistence. David either goes under, over, around, or through the obstacle. So that level of intensity and purpose animates everything he does. and i think just knowing him just from these podcasts i think it's the fact that he is so even keeled and flat and so knowledgeable and a believer in whatever it is he's raising actually the more people see him the more they get that aspect of him and so you know it makes it more likely that they're going to give money whether it's for a charitable cause or to the Carlow Group or whatever.

34:39Yeah, you know, it's reminding me of something. So we spent the past four years producing a new PBS series called Iconic America. And if your listeners haven't checked it out, you should. It's on PBS. You can stream it for free. And so we're all used to David's style. You know, David's style, again, he's got this wry humor. It's kind of flat, little monotone. So the Wall Street Journal writes a review. Their TV critic writes a review and said, wow, this series is great. I love the topic. Ooh, but that Dave Rubenstein, he's kind of boring. We're like, we all looked at that and said, hey, that's David.

35:15That's what makes him special. And we're just used to it. And so are his fans. So if you listen to him on Bloomberg, or he's on Squawk Box all the time, or PBS, you're used to that. And it actually redounds to his benefit because he's not a glad hander back slapper. You actually think he's serious and knows what he's talking about. But this Wall Street Journal TV critic was used to the more effervescent personality. And so we didn't take offense at that. I was like, hey, that's David. That's what makes him special. You know, you've seen, you know, working with him for over 20 years and with many of these people, you've seen them not only get older and hopefully wiser, but also accumulate large amounts of money.

36:04Now, David Rubenstein, I'm sure, was very wealthy when you met him, but he's become a multi-billionaire since you've met him. And, you know, how does that change one's life, do you think? Like, what have you seen change, both in terms of, like, let's say, the physical manifestation of it as well as just personality? Well, the three founders of Carlisle, so there are three of the four billionaires, and there's another guy named Orlando Bravo, and he runs a private equity firm, and he's a client, and he's a billionaire. And they all take this as a responsibility, that it's not just a license to go crazy and buy 300-foot yachts and things like that, which is one of the reasons why I like these people as humans and enjoy working with them, because they view their circumstance as a blessing and that they must give back.

37:02So I think when they were on the Forbes 400, which is the list of 400 wealthiest people in the United States for the first time, I think it then like whacks them over the head and they say, wow, I actually am really rich. What am I going to do with this money? So there's duty. And I saw that emerge and evolve over time. For example, Bill Conway, who's one of the founders of Carlisle, had a 20-year personal investment outside the firm, exited this. I estimate he made a couple of hundred million dollars on the deal. And I said, Bill, congratulations. And he said, thanks. Now I have to figure out how to get the money away.

37:46So for a normal human, of normal meaning of modest financial means, like this notion of being wealthy as a burden is incomprehensible. Like you don't understand it at all. Like how could that be a burden? And it actually is because once your basic needs are met, food, clothing, shelter, and all that kind of stuff, they have billions of dollars. And you have to figure out what do I do with this money because I don't want to leave it to my kids and ruin their lives. And I don't want some foundation to give it away. And who knows if they'll represent my objectives. So it took them a while to earn it.

38:28And then they have to be very thoughtful in how they give it away. So I've seen each of these billionaire people I know work very hard at giving it away in a thoughtful manner that will actually do good and not just writing a check so I can get the money out of my account. So it's been fascinating. And it's just fascinating talking with people who have that much money. And they're really like everyone else. The working title of this book for five years was Rich People Have Feelings Too, which everyone thinks is hilarious, but a bit divisive because most people don't care if rich people have feelings.

39:06But I use that as a working title because having worked with super successful people for so long, I realized that they really like everyone else. They just have a lot more money, meaning they have insecurities, they have fears, and yeah, they don't worry about food, clothing, shelter, daycare, elder care, the way the rest of us do. But they still have, they're still human. And then they feel, many of them, burdened with this money, meaning that the duty of giving it away is overwhelming. I mean, if you had a billion dollars and you gave it away in$20 million chunks, that's 50,$20 million gifts.

39:50And I think that's 50. Yeah, my math is right. And then you can't just write a$20 million check to the local charity because they can't spend it well. So you have to do all this due diligence. So like five organizations times 50 gifts, that's 250 organizations you would have to do diligence on to figure out who can you give the money to. It is a blessing and a curse at the same time. It's really fascinating.

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41:00You know, there's one common theme that runs through the various billionaires you discuss, and this almost sounds cliche, but they're extremely above and beyond action oriented. So like we were talking about David Rubenstein before the podcast began, he's not just busy, it seems like he's doing so many things that you couldn't conceivably have enough time to do that and have time left over for family and fun and so on. You say something about Bill Conway, where he basically says, don't do anything irrelevant. And I was curious about that phrase. How does he define irrelevance? Well, so Bill is the, or was for 30 years, the chief investment officer at Carlisle.

41:43So the buck stopped with him. Do we invest this money in this company or not. So it's a gigantic burden. To write a multi-billion dollar check to buy the Acme company is just a huge responsibility. And Carlisle founders were very good at dividing and conquering in terms of their duties. So Bill focused on the investment process and the team that did the investing. Dan kind of ran the firm and David was the strategist fundraiser and face of the firm. So, actually, I recount in the book where, since I was the PR guy, I would go to Bill occasionally and say, Hey, Bill, do you want to talk to the New York Times about this?

42:33And he'd say, No, I don't want to talk to them. It's totally irrelevant to me. I need to go manage$300 billion. So, sometimes he would see me coming down the hall and he would change direction. or he would avoid my office because if I saw him, I'd say, Bill, Bill, I need to talk to you. And then when I told him this, when I was writing the book, he was like, oh, did I really do that to you? And I said, oh, yes, you did. And you know, you did. But I don't take it personally because your job was to focus on what's important, which is managing the money for investors, not doing podcasts with James Altucher, who was a wonderful human being.

43:13But that's why David did it, because David's the face of the firm. So I learned a lot from that about how to allocate time and focus on what's important versus what is irrelevant. Yeah. And again, even like with Arthur Levitt, very action-oriented. Like you described this one story, which actually made me wonder about his mental health. But you describe where he kind of gives you a list of things to do. And while he's still describing the list, he asks you, so how's it going so far? like he expected you to already be working on the list he did and it was this like i there was this quizzical moment where he said so how's it going and i said how's what going and he said well the first item on the list and i said how can i be working on the list if i'm here talking to you and he's like you better get going you know it's like it is a mindset um you know it's because Because people have said to me, what are these kind of main attributes of these super successful people?

44:13And intensity is definitely one of them. Where Mitch Daniels, super intense. Lou Gerstner from IBM, who saved IBM in the 90s. Very intense. They are super focused. I mean, that doesn't mean they don't like to chit-chat once in a while. but when you are around them, you better be ready for the intensity, both to give it and to get it. When they ask you a question, boom, you better have a good answer. And one of the things I talk about, especially in the introduction to the book, is I went from this kind of middle-class, minor league type of environment to the majors in Washington, where working with these senior government officials, all these billionaires, and I just really had to up my game.

45:05And so I just wanted to be the sponge, just learning and absorbing from these people. And I say, and that's why there are 15 people in there because I sat down and I said, all right, I have worked with some immensely successful people. What have I learned from each of them? I literally went through all the people I've worked for that are these super bigwigs. And that's how I came up with 50 lessons because they're, and they're not just work hard. Of course you should work hard. And there are a couple in there about like that. But most of them are these like super specific things like with Kasich, act like irrelevant even when you're not.

45:40And this is really great one from Bill Conway that's called, it's not how much you pay, it's if you do the deal. And I've had - Yeah, I was gonna ask about this one too. Oh my gosh, I have had a bunch of people and these are people in their fifties who are like on the tail end of their careers say, that lesson made more of an impact on me than any other lesson in the book. This book is not just for 25-year-olds. You're a 50-year-old. And so what that lesson means, it's not how much you pay, it's if you do the deal, is very much focused on how, focusing on the right priorities. And again, it's not surprising that this is a Bill Conway lesson because too often people will say, all right, I'm only going to pay a billion dollars for that company because it's not worth a penny more than a billion dollars for it.

46:33And then someone comes in and bids$1.1 billion and say, I am not paying a penny over a billion. And you don't get the deal. But then they knock the cover off the ball and you missed out. Why? Because you focus less on, do I really want to own that company and make a slightly smaller profit because I'm paying a little more, or do I just fixate on the cost? And so I watch with my wife Stock Tank every night. And so someone comes in there and says, I'm gonna sell you 10 % of my company for$100 ,000. And then Mark Cuban says, hey, I like your company. I'll give you that$100 ,000, but I want 20 % of your company.

47:17And they're like, not in a million years. No way. And I yell at the TV and I say, listen, here is a billionaire who is immensely successful, who will radically change the trajectory of your firm and your life. And you're not going to give them 20 % of the firm. Are you insane? Because they're fixated not on whether you do a deal with Mark Cuban. They're fixated on whether or not I give up 10 % of equity or 20 % of equity, which is the wrong thing to focus on. Like I had this young girl, who I mentor, who said to me, I have a job offer from Blackstone and they want to pay me$70 ,000. And I am not taking that job because I am worth$75 ,000.

48:02And I said, you are insane. It is the best investment firm on the planet. It will change the trajectory of your career and your life. You'll meet more amazing, interesting people than you could ever imagine who cares about the$5 ,000. She's like, wow, I never thought about it that way. I said, well, that's how you have to think about it. And she took the job. And that lesson is just immensely powerful. It is really powerful. You know, and there's kind of a nuance to that, particularly with the Shark Tank example. If Mark Cuban owns 20 % of your company, as opposed to, let's say, let's take an extreme, as opposed to 1 % of your company, you actually got more value in that deal than you think, because now he's going to care more about your company.

48:47And Mark Cuban, caring more is what's going to make you money as opposed to you owning 99 % instead of 80%. That's exactly it. But we focus on the wrong things. And like we used to know at Carlisle, like we'd have these new people join and they're going to run a new fund. And then they get all persnickety about their business card. and my team had been there for 20 years and we'd look at each other and say, they're not going to last long because they focused on the wrong thing. Who cares about your business card? Are you out there kicking butt and investing or not? Anyway, so focus on the right things and it becomes muscle memory over time.

49:34You will act, the more you do it and get used to focusing on the right things, you really get a good sense of what are the right things. And, you know, it's interesting. You tell this one story in the book that the story is not about what I'm about to say, but it was an interesting story. You personally were negotiating with David over your job at one point, and he was very, very direct. Like, it seems like with a lot of these guys, there's no fluff. like they're just they cut out all the fat in a conversation or in a negotiation they get right to the point and you know essentially you had a mild discussion with Goldman Sachs about going from Carlisle to be heading crisis communications at Goldman Sachs and this was right after the financial it was in 2011 and of course all these people talk where it gets back to David Rubenstein he calls you 8.45 a.m.

50:31the next day and says, I hear you're talking to Goldman Sachs. Well, we want you to stay. What will it take? And you're kind of like a little tongue-tied. So he says, well, we'll take this, this, this, and this. And you say, yeah, that would be about to do it. He says, okay, I'll call you back in 15 minutes. He calls you back and it's done. That was an amazing story. That one's called The Power of Transactional Thinking. and again this is like how do you focus on the right things and a lot of people would in david's position would have said you betrayed me can't trust you anymore how could you do this to me after all i've done for you your future here is so when i got that phone call you were so you were nervous you were scared because you knew the phone call was coming yeah i knew because my immediate boss heard first.

51:26He then told Rubenstein, Rubenstein, and then this is what's brilliant about David, is David says, these are the five reasons you would talk to Goldman. So he's empathizing with me as a human that, oh, they're going to pay you more. It's a great name. You're going to learn a lot. It's an intense time and all this cool stuff. And I start to explain that I'm not looking for a job. He's like, just be quiet. He said, I don't want you to leave. this is what I'll do, just as you noted. Now, what's interesting about this, when I was writing the book, people would read these lessons and say, this doesn't happen.

52:01This is just so obvious. Any leader would never do what you're concerned about. And I'd say, you don't know what you're talking about. Because there was another time at Carlisle where there was a very senior person who reacted very badly when another senior person left. And then, you know, in the back, on the way out the door, which is stupid. You know, if someone's leaving, you think you've got to, that you need to de-emotionalize the situation. It's not about you. Like someone will say, why are you doing this to me? And I'm like, I'm not doing anything to you. I have my family, I have my career to manage and I'm managing it.

52:42And so I had seen, it's actually, I'm gonna give you another, this is an amazing contemporary example. So there was an article about David Solomon just the other day, who's the CEO of Goldman Sachs. Under attack, things are a little better right now, but under attack, and a lot of people want him out. And in this article, it said that if a journalist has written an article about David Solomon, he doesn't like the article, he won't talk to that reporter anymore. now this guy's 50 55 years old acting like a 15 year old because and there's a lesson in the book i should send this to solomon there's a lesson where arthur levitt when he was sec chairman was under attack by some member of congress for abusing his travel budget it was total bs but business week writes an article about it and we tried to make it a little better but it's still terrible article because it's questioning his ethics.

53:46And most people would have said, you're dead to me. I'm never talking to you again. And even my PR people won't talk to you. Arthur turned on the charm offensive. He took her to breakfast. He took her to lunch, gave her scoops. Four years later, Business Week does a cover story on Arthur. She is one of the authors. And it's this, it called him the investor's advocate with his Moses-like photo. So, I mean, it was amazing. Two years after that, he co-authors his memoir. Think about that. Oh, my gosh. If he took the Solomon approach, none of that would have happened, and he would have had an enemy.

54:27So, so much of the – like, someone might say to me, what's your state of mind to actually absorb these lessons? And I say, you know, you just got to be a little humble. Because if you see someone like Arthur Levitt think long-term and de-emotionalize, you know, maybe that would work for you too. Or if you see Rubenstein, you know, his ability to pivot from an unfavorable situation to a good situation, maybe I should too. Or like Kasich, reaching across the aisle, like maybe I could benefit from that too. So I determined that if people just have a modicum of humility, then these lessons will like really take root in them, have a huge impact.

55:23Can you give us a story about David Rubenstein pivoting from an unfavorable situation to a favorable one? Because I think that's, that is a big skill. Yeah. So here's, this is a wild one. So David was shopping for a bar mitzvah gift for his son. So he's at a Jewish bookstore. And the rabbi, who's a scribe, says, I have a Torah scroll that is of Holocaust provenance, meaning they actually discovered it in a concentration camp. But it needs repair. And David said, I will buy it and I will repair it. and so this guy then repairs it David in this very elaborate ceremony gives it to Central Synagogue which is a very prominent synagogue in New York City and then six months later we find out it's a fraud the guy faked it so I remember telling David imagine delivering that after all we went through and we had Holocaust survivors at the ceremony where we handed this over.

56:31I mean, it was a beautiful situation that was then marred by this fraud. So David is basically for like 15 seconds says, holy crap, that's insane. Then in his swivel chair, turns around, calls the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, gets the director on the phone and says, I need the top scholar in the world on Torah scrolls, gets that guy on the phone and says, we got a problem. I need you to help me solve it. I need to get a replacement. And if it takes repair, I'm going to buy it. I'm going to replace it. And Central Synagogue will have an authentic Holocaust-era Torah scroll. And he did.

57:16He didn't wring his hands for days and weeks and I'm a victim. It was amazing. It was actually a stunning process to watch. because people love to wring their hands. Victim, victim, victim. And David's not like that. David has got a lot of to-dos. He even calls it sprinting to the finish. He has so many things he's trying to jam in. A lot of things, limited time. Who has time for wringing your hands? Do you feel like all of these people you speak about, do you feel like their ambition never ends? Do you think they're driven right up until the last moment? Or do you think at some point they just say enough's enough.

57:59I'm going to just take it easy. Never ends. I always wonder about this. Like I want it to end sometime. I want to hope that in the future it ends. Not life, but like, you know, the desire for, and I don't mean the desire for more accumulation, but the desire for more, I don't know, career or ambition or whatever it is. Well, I think that's an excellent point. I think so much depends on what you're seeking. If it's just more money, what's the point? I mean, once you have$3 billion, why do you need$5 billion? But if it's just accolades from strangers, I'm not sure what the point of that is either.

58:44If it's, and again, this is all highly judgmental, and it's also reflective of how I'm trying to live my life, is if the intensity can be directed towards putting my wisdom, resources, connections to use, then why not? Like this notion of, like David has been asked for years, what do you do to relax, have fun, or go on vacation? And he used to say, I have no hobbies. And I would say, you even may have asked him that question years ago when we first met. And I said, David, stop saying you don't have any hobbies because you do have hobbies. Your hobbies are reading, traveling, and meeting people, really need people all around the world.

59:27Like what's wrong with that? Just because you don't play golf or watch the latest Netflix series doesn't mean you don't have hobbies. So he kind of embraced that. So I think the key, especially for your more seasoned or older listeners, viewers, is to say, how can I use all of this accumulated resources and wisdom to actually give back in a substantial way? And, you know, yeah, maybe I'll ratchet back on my actual job, but people like that need to be engaged because they have the money, they have the time, they have the connections, they have the wisdom, I think their duty is to give back. And you know, it's interesting because the book is titled Four Billionaires and a Parking Attendant.

1:00:24So A, I mean, there is valuable lessons from the parking attendant. The chapter on happiness is very interesting where he seems like a very happy guy. And you contrast that with something David Rubenstein said, how he doesn't really know a

1:00:42Is that true that he doesn't really know a lot of happy billionaires? And, you know, and of course, the parking attendant is a good example that, you know, happiness is really uncorrelated to money. There are a lot of studies on that. It's correlated, depending on which ones you read, but like up to like 70, 80, 90 ,000 or something like that. And this gentleman, the parking attendant, I assume is below that, but nonetheless was still happy. What I find fascinating about David's claim is that he's consistent with saying it. He knows a lot of billionaires. So I take him at face value. The four billionaires I know seem reasonably happy, but you never know for sure.

1:01:33And I do, the reason I put Sala, and that's the park intendant's first name, in the book is that I really love this juxtaposition between kind of someone's lot in life, you know, on the lower socioeconomic part of the spectrum where, you know, I drive my car and he parks it every day for four years. But big, bright smile, Ethiopian immigrant, learning English, but happy literally every day. Mr. Chris, how are you? How's your family? How was your weekend? And you're not, and it's always cold or hot and dark in the garage. And then there's this juxtaposition. You take the elevator up 40 feet and there's all these billionaires and all this money sloshing around.

1:02:21And Rubenstein said, he doesn't know many happy billionaires. How the heck is that possible? So Sala just inspired me and is a powerful reminder to focus on things other than you know, material possessions. Now, again, most people do worry about money because they do have to take care of their daycare and their healthcare and their old parents. And so wealthy people don't have that, which is why this, this is extra duty, I believe to make, to do good with their resources because they are effectively absolved of most of the normal human stress that people have. And Bitzala was a great reminder of, hey, focus on what's important.

1:03:13He had two children, his wife, his faith, and serving his parking clients well. And that is an honorable life. And it's very interesting because in part what I get out of that lesson, and several of the other stories that you've told today and that you've written about is that you are curious and listen to the parking attendant and, of course, the billionaires and the politicians and so on and on. Like, you have achieved success. This is the reason why David Rubenstein called you at 8.45 in the morning and says, we have to keep you here, is you're listening to these people and treating them equally, the parking attendant and the billionaires.

1:04:02And a lot of people don't do that. You know, this has been your kind of trademark to success. David Rubenstein raises a lot of money. Bill Conway, you know, does the deal. You're listening and learning from all of these people around you. And it doesn't matter what their title is and who they are. If you feel there's a lesson there, you get it. well in the end you know my faith says love god love your neighbor it's this it's a simple message it's difficult to do but it is the mandate and so i try to live it i'm a sinner i'm imperfect but every day i try to say love god love my neighbor just as a mantra and as as rubenstein himself says, you can't take that wealth with you.

1:04:50The Egyptians tried it and it did not work. So, you know, I've got a fancy car and two houses and a nice 401k and, you know, it's all ephemeral in the scheme of time. And from an eternity standpoint, it's as irrelevant as can be. so therefore focusing on fellow creatures of god world children of god like that's where it's at i mean yeah so that doesn't mean i live like a pauper but we my wife and i do give a lot of money away and during covid we made a point of finding individual humans who are suffering and just writing pretty nice sized checks say, here you go. No strings attached. We're happy to help.

1:05:45That's really, that's really great. And you know, I guess a final question is, you know, you're, you've been the right hand person for so many of these larger than life characters, you know, whether it's John Kasich, Arthur Levitt, David Rubicine, Bill Conway, all, all the names you mentioned and many more. and they're all of these in, you know, we're primates. So we always have this status hierarchy from alpha down to omega. And they're like these super alphas, you know, running for president, head of the SEC, head of the largest private equity firm that ever existed. Do you ever, and you're next to them, do you ever feel the ambition to, hey, I'm going to go and do this?

1:06:33Did you ever feel that urge to be at the top of that hierarchy? I guess yes and no. Yes, in that I tried to figure out what am I really good at, whistling. So I tried to be at the top of that hierarchy and succeeded for 10 years. In PR world, whether it's working on Capitol Hill or White House, I was definitely at the top of my profession from a PR standpoint. So very grateful to have had those opportunities. So yes, in that sense, but they were very fixated or focused on what am I actually good at? And I'm good at whistling and I'm good at PR. So might as well try to be my best in those two areas.

1:07:21Do I want to run for president? Not in a million years. Do I want to be SEC chairman? No. Do I want to do what it takes to be a billionaire like David? No. Because there are definitely trade-offs. He traveled all the time, didn't see his family a lot when his kids were little. Actually, there was a moment when I was thinking about leaving the White House and I couldn't go to Carlisle or stay in the White House. And then I talked to someone who had my job at one point, He said, listen, you should stay if you want to be the White House spokesman at some point, or at least position yourself for that job.

1:08:02I said, I don't want that job. And he said, then you should leave, because Carlisle will be a great job. And I stayed for 18 years. So, you know, because I do like to watch Homeland, you know, on whatever. I do too. Yeah. And I don't watch a lot of TV, but there are a couple of these, you know, cool government intrigue types that I do watch. And David doesn't watch any of that stuff. And I do like to go ride my bicycle because it actually helps me write my books better. And I do love to spend time with my kids because they just delight me. And my wife and I love going on dates. So, you know, I try to, I've actually, I could argue I have like the perfect life.

1:08:42I mean, perfect in that I had these people I love around me. I have disposable income. I live in America. I live in Washington. So I count my blessings every day. So now I know everybody probably asked you this, and I was debating whether they asked you this, but can I hear you whistle? I would be honored. Okay. So here's Take the A-Train, made famous by Duke Ellington, but written by Billy Strayhorn.

1:09:55There you go. I hope it was worth the wait. That was amazing. You really feel like the emotions of the song. Like it's beautiful. Well, that warms my heart because that's what it's about. You know, it's great writing and storytelling and being a musician is really about telling a story and notes. So if it can move your heart, then that's what makes it special. That was great. That was beautiful. Thank you for doing that. I felt bad asking. Sometimes people don't like to do their magic trick on the show. In my first book on Find Your Whistle, there are these very funny stories of being the pet monkey or the trained monkey where people snap their fingers and say, hey, come over here and whistle.

1:10:40And I'm happy to do it. It is really a lot of fun. Well, Chris Ullman, author of Find Your Whistle and your new book, Four Billionaires and a Parking Attendant, Success Strategies of the Wealthy, Powerful, and Just Plain Wise. Great books. I really enjoy them. So much to learn from you and from the people you've learned from. And also, I appreciate all the help you've done. I mean, I've had such a great time interviewing David that it's always a pleasure having him on the show as well. And I know you've been instrumental in organizing that as well. And I just really appreciate everything you do.

1:11:20And thank you so much for coming on the show. Well, it's my pleasure and honor, James. Thank you for having me. And I'm excited to hear more of the interviews you do. You always have cool people on. Thank you. Thank you.