From the Archive: Jocko Willink | Discipline Equals Freedom

23:52So a lot of this, and you discuss this later in the book, but a lot of this is related to the concept of being proactive to kind of deal with situations before they happen. It reminds me of a story in the hedge fund business. So this guy gets hired by a hedge fund and on day one, he makes a trade that loses enormous amount of money. So he goes to his boss, the manager of the hedge fund, and he says, I can't believe I did this. I'm sorry. Can we make back the money quickly so the client doesn't get upset about it? And the boss says, no, we're going to call the client right now and tell them what happened.

24:28And so they call the client and we said, we just lost, I don't know,$10 million for you. Here's what happened. Here's what we're going to do to make sure it doesn't happen again. The client actually invested more money immediately. So this idea of being proactive as opposed to waiting for the shit to hit the fan is really important in life, whether you're at war or running a business or whatever. Yeah, and we actually call that aggressive. That's the default mode is going to be aggressive. When a lot of people hear me say, you've got to be aggressive, they're thinking that I'm talking about attacking people with a battle ax.

25:04And sometimes I am talking about that, but usually I'm talking about what you're saying, which is I'm going to get aggressive with my client and get aggressive in informing them of what is happening. Tell them early, tell them often. I'm going to get aggressive with my employees. Does that mean I'm yelling at my employees? No, it means I'm aggressively keeping them informed of how their performance is going. When I talk about being aggressive, again, I'm not talking about berserker fury with battle acts in hand. I'm talking about being proactive and aggressively forming the course that you want to send people down.

25:36So let's reel it back a little bit like why did you join you joined the seals i guess right and you were 18 years old so it must have been like 1989 like why did you join in the first place you know ever since i was a little kid i wanted to be some kind of commando and so what did you want to do when you were a kid i think i wanted to be a writer and interview people well there you go i had that feeling when i was a kid but i didn't want to be a writer or interview people i wanted to go into combat And so that's what I did. And now in 1989, did you get the sense that, I mean, at that time, you know, the Cold War was ending.

26:15It seemed like world peace was here forever. Like it almost would have been, and my guess is people joining the military, I mean, military budgets were going down. What did you think, you know, were you kind of geared up all along to join the military? Or did you think that you were going to end up in wars? Or what were you thinking? my geopolitical sense of the world at age 18 was pretty minimalistic and what i thought was if you're in the seal teams you're going to go fight wars there's wars going on somewhere there's a war in nicaragua there's a war in south africa or africa there's wars all over the world and i'm sure in my mind again this is what i was thinking in my mind i'm going to be in the seal teams i'm to go fight all those wars.

27:03So let's do this. And when I got to the SEAL teams in 1991, when I got to SEAL team one, there was no war going on. And we call it the dry years because all we did was train a bunch and train some more. And that's what we did. So you were training basically for 10 years before 9-11. I was in the SEAL teams for 13 years before I shot my weapon at the enemy. And was there ever a point where you figured okay i've been here five years six years now's the time to do something else no no, because It was awesome even without a war going on hanging out with these guys that are in the seal teams and Even though you're not in combat You're shooting machine guns blowing things up jumping out of airplanes running on the beach You show up to work in the morning.

27:54We would show up to work We would train some martial arts for a while and then have a little meeting and then we'd go work out for two hours and then we get I was like 35 years old and Making good money in the SEAL teams you make good money and I wasn't even wearing a shirt at work. It was just awesome So no, I had no It was it was a dream. It was a dream and you're working with the best guys in the world and even though the mission We were waiting back then we were waiting for the big mish so when I got to the SEAL team because I thought I was going to go to Vietnam like I thought I was going to go fight basically the Vietnam War even though it was 1991 but you're so once I realized oh that there's no war going on what are we going to do now?

28:40well then what we're going to do is we're going to get ready for this big mission whatever it is what's a big hostage rescue there's going to be some missile site that needs to get taken out and so we just trained really really hard for that all the time and it was fun training and that's what we did.

29:11You have a phrase that you use in a couple of different places, which is in both books, The Way of the Warrior Kid and Extreme Ownership, discipline equals freedom. And I really like that a lot. I think it could be applied to many areas of life. And, you know, discipline in my view involves having some sort of decision-making process, you know, basically eliminating the complexity of the decisions you make. Okay, this is my discipline. So this is the decision I make in this situation. And so because I've made my decision-making easier, I now have more freedom and more time to do the things I love to do.

29:48and so it seems like part of the training is building that discipline and coming to grips with that discipline equals freedom am i kind of uh saying it correctly or you are and you're taking you just pointed out the fact that discipline equals freedom it applies to it applies to everything and you know even as far as being an artist goes and one of my favorite examples to bring up is jimmy page from led zeppelin are you a led zeppelin fan yeah of course so jimmy page you know, he was one of the most sought after studio musicians in England. And if you don't know what a studio musician does, they sit and they get told, play these notes for this, you know, commercial that's coming on or play these notes for this album that's coming out that you're not going to be even recognized on, but you play these notes.

30:36And so he just played what he was told to play and he was highly disciplined and did that all the time so that by the time he was in Led Zeppelin, he could do whatever he wanted with that guitar because he had had so much discipline in the past training for those moments when he was going to take a violin. What's that thing called? The violin thing. I don't know. The bow. Yeah, the bow. He was going to take that violin bow and play his electric guitar with it. You can't do that unless you're highly disciplined. So it It applies in art or music, and it applies to what you just said, to your personal life.

31:15If you want to have more free time, then you've got to have the discipline to say no to the things that are going to eat up a bunch of your time. And you know, you can't come up with the rationales for no on the fly. It has to go back to a discipline or you list like in the way of the warrior kid, you list various pages of codes of the Rangers, codes of the seal, codes of the Bushido, and whatever code you subscribe to, that kind of helps sort of internalize your own discipline. You don't have to follow someone else's code. You can develop your own, but I think that helps building your own discipline.

31:47Absolutely. I think that even with mission planning in the military, we would have something called commander's intent. And what that really means is, hey guys, this is what I want to get accomplished. This thing here is the end state that we're trying to make happen. And as long as everybody knows what that end state is, they can accomplish it however they want. They can go over the hill. They can go around the hill. They can go through the hill. They can do a various bunch of methods to get there. It's the same thing with life. If you know what you're trying to get to, and just like you said, if you know what your core beliefs are, then when you get confronted with an issue or a question or a problem, and you just know, hey, I'm going to maintain my core beliefs on this.

32:29I'm going to follow my code. It's going to make it a lot easier for you. You know, I want to hit that actually for a second. But first, you know, this one story about Jimmy Page. He was a studio musician for The Who. And he goes and tells, I forget who within The Who, he says, oh, I'm going to start my own band instead of just hanging out with you guys all the time. And the guy was like, you know, I forget if it was, you know, which person in The Who, but the guy was like, oh, you know, that's going to go down like a sinking ship. And so that's why he named Led Zeppelin, Led Zeppelin, because the Zeppelin, you know, went down.

33:04I heard the story. It was like metal balloon. You're going to crash like a lead balloon or something like that. So they named it Led Zeppelin. Yeah, for sure. And because I guess he knew his skills and he knew he had that discipline, he knew that whatever he did was going to succeed or he had a strong sense of it. No doubt. So, you know, but the phrase end state's interesting because it's not quite the same as a mission statement. An end state is a particular state in mind that you can visualize. Like this is where I'm going to end up. And then you could kind of backtrack from that and see all the things, not only that you have to do moving forward, but all the contingencies and the things that can go wrong.

33:41You bring up this a lot in extreme ownership, particularly in a war situation. But I think in any life situation, lots of things can go wrong along the way of achieving that end state. And you really have to list them out and figure out what you're going to do. And that's what you're saying a leader does. You know, I don't want to go completely in depth on the military history at this point, but I might a little bit. So there was the Germans kind of created this idea of decentralized command. They created it after the battle of Jenna, where they got beat by Napoleon and they just couldn't maneuver their troops fast enough because all they would try and do is the senior leadership would try and control each individual move.

34:19And on a battlefield, you can't control these individual moves. They happen so rapidly that your leaders that are in the field need to say, oh, we're getting flanked. We need to move over here. We're going to make it happen. So that's where they came up with this idea of totally decentralized command and this idea of commander's intent, which is very similar to end state. And as the U.S. and the rest of the militaries in the world tried to adapt this policy and this concept of decentralized command and using commander's intent to guide people, what the U.S. military did, because the U.S. military is a big bureaucratic machine, is they started, we would make briefings for our operations that would be 100 or 150 50 PowerPoint slides deep of telling, okay, this is what's going to happen here.

35:10Here's our contingency. If this happened, here's our contingency. If this happens, these massive plans. And there's a quote that, that I dug up that, you know, the other specialists in this type of decentralized command looked at kind of how America was doing it and said, because at the end of this whole big briefings, we'd have a little line that said, commander's intent, you know my commander's intent my end state that i'm going for is this and this one critic of the way we planned said that the commander's intent shouldn't be one line on the end of a 50 page briefing it should replace the whole briefing which is pretty cool but i will i will push back at you for a second which is that when you're in the chapter on managing upwards and leading upwards, you kind of do have to put in as much information as possible so that the leaders have faith and don't try to micromanage you, you know, when you're at the finish line already.

36:10A hundred percent. So how do you reconcile the decentralized command where you're kind of giving a lot of trust to the people below you, but also making sure the people above you are fully informed and then they're not going to kind of ask the wrong questions at the last minute? Well, the people below me in the chain of command, we're going to build up trust. We're How do you build up trust with somebody? You give them trust. So the way I build up trust with you is I say, hey, James, we got this project. I want you to handle it. Let me know how you want to do it. You're seeing that I trust you.

36:40And now you're putting trust in me. So now my guidance means more. So that's an effective way to build trust. I like the other phrase, let me know how you want to do it. Because that means they now have to communicate back to you. They can't just say, you got it, sir. And then they go off and they come back with something you didn't expect. Right. I'm going to keep some control. control it's going to be a nice indirect control but i'm going to keep some control so that way when you come back to me an hour later and say hey here's our overall concept of operations i say oh yeah that's pretty good hey make this one adjustment over there or make this little adjustment here and now you say oh okay got it but it still feels like your plan i shouldn't say it feels like your plan it is your plan you came up with it same thing with people say how do you get someone to take ownership the way you get them to take ownership is by giving them ownership you let them own it.

37:26And then they take ownership. Because if I say, hey, James, you're going to do this mission here. Here's how I want you to move into the target. Here's how I want you to go through the target. These are the people I want you to take with you. These are the standards I want you to follow. When you go out and execute that, that's my plan, right? But when do you, when, you know, so like in chapter one of extreme ownership, you said, it's my fault. If you have decentralized command and they're off doing their things, even if it's their plan and they, let's say they mess up. Where's the line where it's not your fault anymore?

37:56Well, when you're in charge of something, the line where it's not your fault anymore is when things go great, then it's their fault. Hey, that was a great operation. You guys did a great job. And when things go wrong, it's going to be your fault. Your other question about micromanagement, and I get asked this all the time. My boss is micromanaging me. How should I overcome it? And I got micromanaged through, the great thing about being in the military is you work for all different kinds of bosses and people get the illusion that just because someone is in the military and they're in a leadership position, they're a great leader.

38:30It's complete false. You get the same kind of great leaders in the military and you get idiots in the military. You have both and you have extreme micromanagers and you have guys that are completely laissez faire with letting you do what you want. A point that I always make is that my relationship with all those different bosses was always the same. I had the same relationship with an egomaniac psychopath as I did with a tactical genius. My relationship with them was the same. And that was that they trusted me. They were going to give me what I need and they were going to let me do what I want.

39:02And what if they didn't trust you? What if the egomaniac psychopath was like, no, Jocko, you're going to go in that building and shoot every man, woman, and child, whether they're friendly or not. Well, you know, I know you're kind of being facetious, taking it to an example. Yeah, I'm exaggerating. An extreme example where they're asking me to do something that's immoral and unethical, you say, no, not doing it. But if they're saying, hey, we really want you to come in from the West instead of coming from the South to hit this target, I'm going to work with them. But the point is with all those leaders, I'm going to build up that trust and I'm going to do it differently with different people, different leaders.

39:36I'm going to build up that trust a different way. And an extreme micromanager, the way I always handled extreme micromanagers was I gave them more information than they could possibly want. I gave them so much information and control that they didn't even want that control anymore. But then what if in your decentralized command, something happens that is not in the micro information you handed your bosses and they go back to you and said, Jocko, you said this, this, and this was going to happen. Clearly your guys did not do it that way. Well, why would they not be doing something in a way that we planned?

40:10I see. Cause you're getting your information from you're saying let me know how you're going to do it yep it's decent it's i'm getting the plan from the guys that are going to execute if i'm one of the guys i'll still let the guys that are below me in the chain of command execute and again i don't want to make this sound like it's super easy it's hard it's hard being in a leadership position you know that's why we have the business we have the reason we have the business is because every company we go to from companies that are doing really really well to companies that are not doing really well when we come on board they have leadership issues and they recognize somebody at the company recognizes, Hey, this problem that we have is a leadership problem.

40:48And I'll take that one step further. When you're in a business or you're part of a team or you're in the military and things aren't going the way they're supposed to go. It is a leadership problem. It is a leadership problem. You know, you can talk about process and you can talk about finances and you can talk about spreadsheets. But when you get to the bottom of those things, there's a leader that is not stepping up, taking charge and making things happen. Just to add to that, I think there's a leader who's confused about his agreements on both sides to his bosses and to his employees. There's some things that have been agreed to that haven't been agreed to.

41:20So there's two directions I want to go with this. I want to talk about the way of the warrior kid, but I also want to talk about how you kind of live your life personally now, because still you obviously adhere to a discipline. When's the last time you were in the seals. I retired in 2010. 2010. So you've been running Echelon Front since? 2010. I assume the business is going very well. People are hiring you left and right. It's been great. That's good. Congratulations. So what do you do now? Do you wake up at 4.45 or earlier every day? I wake up at 4.30 every day. 4.30 every day. What if you went to sleep at midnight?

41:56I wake up at 4.30. And so you're not a believer necessarily that you need eight hours of sleep a night? negative. But the thing is, you know, and people send me these studies and stuff. I'm genetically, I don't need a lot of sleep. And, and I've heard that's possible. I heard some people genetically eat. So I have four children. My oldest daughter, she's like me. In fact, my oldest daughter, I'd go to bed at 11 o 'clock at night and she would be up studying and I'd wake up at 430 and she'd be up studying. And so she doesn't need a lot of sleep. My second daughter, she sleeps incredible amounts to feel rested.

42:33So she'll sleep nine, 10 hours, like no factor. So there's a genetic component to this. So I don't want to, you know, make people think that, hey, Jocko sleeps five hours a night. I'm going to sleep five hours a night because it's probably not healthy. Some people can do it and some people can't. But I think why people have kind of latched onto that a little bit is because intrinsically they know that they don't need to get up at 4 30 in the morning, but they don't need to sleep in until 10. They don't need to sleep in until eight. They can get up and get a lot more stuff done. A lot of laying in bed is some laziness.

43:13So, I mean, let's face it. When you're in bed in the morning and the alarm clock goes off, you know, it doesn't always jar me, but a lot of times you don't feel like getting up. So what are you going to do? Go back to bed, snuggle in with your little pillow. No, not going to do that. So I'm wondering, like, I'm someone who feels like I need eight hours of sleep or more. How can I get a little better? I'd like to sleep seven hours a night or six hours a night and feel fully rested. You know, I do think, depending on what your lifestyle is like, when people tell me - Yeah, I don't really drink. I don't, you know, I don't go out and go to parties or anything.

43:48I think it's definitely lifestyle. The healthier you are, the less sleep you need. I think the better you eat and the cleaner you eat, the less sleep you need. But you know, bro, I'm not trying to say you should sleep five hours a night. You might need eight hours and that's cool. I have nothing against you. What I have an issue with and what I think people personally have an issue with is they know that they could get more done. They know that the only reason they slept in was because they didn't want to get up. I do feel like genes also, like even if something's genetics, you still can work within genetics too.

44:16There's a spectrum. Like if your genes say you need eight hours of sleep, there's still things you could do. Like for instance, clean eating that might boost you a half hour in the right direction or an hour. And so I'm just trying to figure out for myself how I can, cause you're right. I can get an hour more worth of writing done. If I get up an hour or an hour more reading done. And I don't know, when I sleep eight hours, I actually feel groggy. And when I sleep five hours, five and a half hours, six hours, I feel really good. Five and feeling it a little bit. Less than five, I'll feel it. You don't drink coffee, right?

44:52No. So, but you do, and it's funny you do this because I just bought some off of Onnit Alpha Brain. I just bought them about a week ago and I've been taking them, but I don't know if it works or not. Do you feel that it works? You know, I don't know if it's placebo. I take them. I take them when I'm going to do something that's going to require some sort of mental acuity. And again, can I confirm it? No, I haven't done a double blind placebo test myself, but maybe there's some placebo effect that makes me like it. I don't drink coffee. I drink tea. I drink white tea. And so I can feel, and I don't drink it all the time.

45:32So when I drink tea, I can feel the caffeine. I can feel it. It's very impactful to me when I drink caffeine. So you kind of tactically use it. I tactically use it. going to hang out for the day with your kids, you might not have caffeine or maybe you do, but I don't know. I'm not going to. But then if you're going to go out and do like a bunch of talks or meetings, you might, you know, kickstart the day with some caffeine. Right. So what other, so again, under the guise of discipline equals freedom, what's part of your current daily discipline? I wake up early and I work out every day. That's the main thing.

46:03There's no big, you know, eureka moment. You know, talk to anybody that does anything and I've seen you say it, you know, wake up early and do some physical activity. You know, it's good for your brain. It's good for your body. I, again, no eureka moment there. I get up every morning early and I work out.

46:37so in way of the warrior kid it basically starts off where there's this kid who's kind of your net the quote-unquote the main you know uncle jake's nephew or the main character is the nephew and it's told from his point of view, he is sort of wimpy. Like kids are picking on him. He can't do his times tables. Like he's wimpy in a variety of ways. And then uncle Jay comes to visit and starts giving him discipline. And through that discipline, the kid finds freedom because now he doesn't have to worry about the big kids. He doesn't have to worry about the teachers. You know, that's a kind of freedom also.

47:11So, but part of that is uncle Jake wakes him up every morning. Like you, you kind of get him on that discipline? And what other kind of techniques are you using with the kid to, not you, I shouldn't say you, what kind of techniques is Uncle Jake using? Somebody asked me about, you know, oh, you're Uncle Jake. I responded the other day. I said, well, actually, Uncle Jake is an extremely flawless version of everything I could hope to be, right? That's Uncle Jake. And yeah, that's what he does is he gets him on a program. He says, oh, you want to do pull-ups? Then we're going to do pull-ups. You want to learn how to swim?

47:49Then we're going to go down to the river three times a week and we're going to start teaching how to swim and we're going to get you there. You want to learn your times tables? Okay. We're going to make flashcards. We're going to review them every day. We're going to put you on a stopwatch so you can get done. So you get really super confident. You know, anything you put a timer on makes everyone freak out. You know, we used to do that a lot of shooting drills when we were, when I was in the SEAL teams, you know, everyone's shooting really solid with your pistol or with your rifle and you're hitting your target every time.

48:14And then all of a sudden they break out the timer that times you. And now you're competing with everyone. And all of a sudden people start throwing shots all over the place. So you put the kid on the timer on the flash cards. And then the last one is, you know, the kid's getting picked on. And so his uncle takes him and teaches him, you know, takes him to a jujitsu school where he starts learning grappling. How long before, let's say someone, I'm just curious about this. This is even and almost unrelated to the podcast, but let's say someone goes to a jujitsu class and somebody else is, in part because he or she is dealing with someone picking on them or they want to feel a little bit more confident in self-defense, how long in the jujitsu class do they learn enough kind of skills or techniques or training before they can feel confident handling themselves with someone else?

48:59It happens very rapidly. And again, there's so many different variables here, but a normal person, let's say a 23-year-old male, if he learns jujitsu for six months, he's going to handle himself in 95 % of street fights or altercations. One of the best things that he's going to get out of it is he's going to become more aware of what's happening and he's going to realize that there's a 5 % of the people out there that even though he knows a bunch is going to destroy him in a street fight. You get somebody that wrestled at Iowa and you know a little jujitsu for six months, that person's going to pick you up and slam you on your head and possibly give you brain damage.

49:41So you get that. But, you know, we've, you know, I own a jujitsu, a mixed martial arts school in San Diego. And we have had all kinds of kids come through there. A lot of them that come, that start training is because they're getting picked on. And, you know, there's several cases, you know, one I'm thinking of off the top of my head where the dad came in and said, hey, my son's getting picked on and will this help him? And I said, yes, it will. and six months later, one of the kids, it wasn't the kid himself that was getting picked on. It was another kid that was being picked on by one of these bullies.

50:10And this kid stepped up, stepped in and handled it and choked the kid. And, you know, then called the teacher and said, hey, and all the other kids said, yeah, this guy, this bully was picking on us again. And little Jimmy over here somehow made him go to sleep. And, you know, that's one of the things you learn in jujitsu. You learn how to do that, but you also learn the power of it. You learn when you need to stop and how you can really hurt somebody with jiu-jitsu. So you need to be very careful with it. But yeah, you can, once you learn it, it's a very power. You know, one of my kids, there's a movie called The Incredibles.

50:43Did you ever see that movie? So one of my kids when, you know, it's my son actually, when he was, you know, six years old or something, he said, you know, hey dad, is there really such a thing as superpowers? And I said, my first thought was no. And then I said, yes, there is jiu-jitsu. It's like a superpower. Because you can defeat people and you don't have to cower down to them. And it teaches you, it does give you real confidence. And that's what happens in the book. The book, his confidence grows so much because he's fighting people on a daily basis in his jiu-jitsu school. And that gives you confidence that you can handle yourself.

51:23And once you build up that confidence, the percentage of times that you actually have to utilize these skills goes down dramatically. because, and I think that's one of the things going beyond that age, what happens to boys when they turn 14, 15, 16, all of a sudden they're looking to prove themselves. All of a sudden, you know, for me, when I was that age, it was, how can I prove that I'm tough? And I think that happens to a, how can I prove that I'm a tough guy? Oh, I can get in a fight. Oh, I can. And, and that's what happens. Well, if you're training jujitsu or you're training boxing or training wrestling or you're training Muay Thai, if you're training one of these real martial arts that makes you fight other people, you don't need to prove yourself.

52:07You're proving yourself in the gym every day. So I think it gives kids, I think it gives 14, 15, 16 year old boys real toughness. So they don't have to go out and try and prove their toughness in some other method. You know, there's no manhood drill in America anymore or American culture. There's no, you know, Those cultures where they jump off the vine tied to their leg, you jump off the 40-foot tower and stop right before you hit the ground. There's no ceremony like that. We don't have that. So how does a young boy prove that he's turning into a man? Because there's some instinct in the back, at least there was in my mind, in the back of my mind, I wanted to prove I was tough.

52:45I wanted to prove I could protect the tribe when I was a kid. So how do you do that? You go get in a fight with someone, and that's not going to be healthy. It's not a healthy way to grow up. Were you kind of like the bully as a little kid? No, no, no. I was a little kid. I was a very scrawny kid. And so, no, I got picked on. I got bullied. It wasn't some extreme example that scarred me mentally or anything. But who didn't? When you're a freshman in high school, you're going to get slammed into the lockers. People are going to knock the books out of your hands. You know, they're going to pull your pants down while you're standing in the lunch line.

53:15That's the kind of bullying that I'm talking about. I'm not trying to make this big thing like I was being aggressively bullied. but I was a 13-year-old boy in America. And when you're a 13-year-old boy in America or in any culture that I've seen, you're going to get picked on. And so what are you going to do about it? Well, run. I ran. Yeah, you can run. And there's sometimes when you can't run though. And for me, I didn't want to run. You know, I wanted to stand up for myself. And unfortunately, I didn't really know what I was doing. So I had to bear it. I had to live through it. and then what happens then to your question, was I a bully?

53:54No, I wasn't a bully. I was empathetic to what it felt like when those kids were getting picked on. And so, you know, I didn't do that. So I want to talk a little bit about your time in Iraq. Like you were there 2004, 2005. I'm pretty sure I'm getting the years right. And here we are, 2017. And I'm sure you've been asked this. We're kind of still there. We're kind of still in all these places. These are longer conflicts now than Vietnam was. What are we, where did leadership break down in our attempts to help, you know, what we thought was an evil situation? And the flip side of that is, when is something evil enough that America has to decide, okay, we're gonna go into this country, but not this country.

54:40Like for instance, we didn't go into Rwanda when there was a genocide going on there, but we went into Iraq when there was evil, but where was the line? Why did we go there and not other places? Well, to break down those specific situations in Rwanda, I was actually sitting off the coast of Rwanda ready and prepared to go in when 800 ,000 Tutsis were killed primarily with machetes in a 100-day period. And, you know, it was an absolute nightmare of a situation and I don't know how familiar you are with it but the one of the things that i found most disturbing about the genocide in rwanda is that the hutus and the tutsis in order there's no way to tell them apart right so they speak the same language they are the same race of people they were living on the same street they were going to the same street they had the same religion right which was catholic and And the only way that I would know that you were a Tootsie is if I knew you.

55:48I had to know you. I couldn't just look at you and figure it out. I couldn't listen to the way you talk and figure it out. I had to know you. I had to know your family. And so that, to me, this wasn't killing where, hey, I'm just killing this guy because he's a different color than me, or I'm not killing this guy because he speaks a different language than me. The only way for me to know that I should kill him is because I have to know him. I have to know him as a person. So that's really, really disturbing. Now, I would say the primary reason why we didn't go in to Rwanda is because this was in 1994.

56:27And in 1993, we had had the Black Hawk Down situation in Somalia. And so we lost a lot of soldiers in that situation. It was an out-of-control situation. things went really bad. And I think the overall stomach in America was, hey, we don't need to do that again. And so, hey, we're not going to go there. But of course, as time goes by, those feelings fade and we forget that war is a horrible thing and that horrible things happen in war. And enough time goes by that we see another bad situation and we say, okay, let's go fix this. and you know that's one of the reasons why the public in america and the government in america said you know what we should go into iraq and help these people and i mean our idea of nation building clearly didn't work so regardless of let's say political beliefs i mean now it's been republican democrat republican administrations somehow or other we're not making it click in there.

57:32We're not, and you know, we've upset the balance of the Middle East. Like Iraq was sort of our buffer against Iran for a long time. In some cases we armed Iraq, you know, we knew who Saddam Hussein was in the eighties, but we gave him all his military equipment. So where again, do you think leadership went wrong and, or not like, what's the situation? So from my perspective, and I understand you're not, this is not like, you don't have to be an expert on this. I just, I'm just curious. Well, I mean, I spent, you know, what was it? I spent nine years of my life in wartime military. And so we learn a lot about this and we study it all the time.

58:12And from my perspective, you know, when we go to war, the biggest thing about going to war is when you go to war, and I've said this before and I'll say it again, you have to have the will. And there's actually two types of will that you need to have when you go to war. The first one is the will to kill. And that sounds pretty easy because, okay, there's bad guys. We're going to go kill the bad guys. But it's not that easy because war isn't that easy. Because when you start killing people, you're not just going to be able to specifically kill the bad guys. And there's going to be innocent casualties.

58:51There's going to be innocent civilians. There's going to be women and children that die in war. And there's also going to be, let's say, military on the other side who they're trying to kill you, but they're still just 18-year-old kids. For sure. Who are not necessarily, it's just a circumstance that they happen to be on the other side of you. For sure. And you have to have the will to kill those people. Because if you're going to war, that is how you win, is by killing the enemy. And when you kill the enemy, there's going to be civilians that die. And that is awful. That is awful. the other will that you need to have is the will to die because if you think that you're going to be able to go into a wartime situation and fight against those other 18 year old kids and that they're not going to kill some of you you're wrong you are going to lose people you're going to lose american men and now women in war so if you don't have those two types of will then you need to really question what you're going in to to try and make happen and you need to have a very clear picture of what it is that you're trying to make happen so in iraq one of the things that when i talk about this subject is i like to at least give some indication to people of what it was like on the ground because what it was like on the ground was not portrayed in the media.

1:00:21It was not portrayed in the media. And life in the Middle East is not portrayed well in the media. But when we were in Ramadi in 2006, it was a horrible war zone. And there was, it was a horrible war zone. The area was pretty much controlled by insurgents. And these insurgents, and there were still, you know, there's still hundreds of thousands of people that lived in Ramadi, normal people. And again, I always have to explain what a normal Iraqi family is like because a normal Iraqi family, Americans don't know what a normal Iraqi family is like. A normal Iraqi family is a normal family. They're just a normal family.

1:01:01There's a dad, there's a mom, there's kids, they have a job, they're trying to do improvements on their house, they're trying to save up for a new car, they want their kids to be educated and live a better life than them. That's what a normal Iraqi family is. And in Ramadi, there was 400 ,000 people some of them had fled while we were there but let's call it 300 000 maybe 200 000 people that were living that were normal that just wanted to live in peace and they were being reigned over by these heinous evil insurgents that were literally beheading fathers and skinning people alive and burning people it was awful and so when we showed up the first reaction from the local populace was, we better not talk to the Americans because if the insurgency is talking to the Americans, they're going to come and kill our whole family.

1:01:52Were the insurgents there, and this shows my lack of understanding, were the insurgents there before you were there? Yes and no. So there was some insurgents or prior military or Saddam loyalists that were there that turned into insurgents. There were some that came in, foreign fighters from other countries. that were going to go get their jihad on. And a lot of the Iraqi insurgents were looking for power. They were looking for, oh, Al-Qaeda is going to come in here and take over. Okay, well, we better get in good with them. So how do we do that? And so some of those guys would say, okay, well, we'll help you.

1:02:34We'll help you do what you're trying to do. We'll help you fight the coalition. As soon as the coalition took a strong stand in Ramadi and started to defeat the insurgents, the local populace said, okay, thank you. And they were great. And we worked with all kinds of locals. When we showed up there, there was, I think, 30 Iraqi police officers, of which we probably saw three of them because none of them would come into work. And a year later, there was about 2 ,400 Iraqi police that were now in charge of their city, and they were keeping it clean and keeping it free of violence. And the violence completely dropped off.

1:03:11And Ramadi was really the poster child of counterinsurgency because it completely turned around in about a year, year and a half period. And then it held with probably less crime than many American cities and less violence than many American cities for about seven years until the embers of the insurgents that were still glowing, little glowing embers, they started to grow once we pulled out. once we pulled out, there was, you know, a power vacuum. What do you think we could have done? It's obvious we can't stay in there forever. Well, we don't need to stay somewhere forever, but, you know, I had a woman ask me that similar question the other day.

1:03:56And I said, you know, if you were home and you had a fire in your kitchen and then you took the fire extinguisher and you put the fire out and then you looked at your watch and there was a, you know, a movie that you were going to go see, would you leave and go to the movie with this? They'll still smoke in the kitchen. No, you wouldn't. You'd stay there. You'd make sure it was out. You'd replace whatever you needed to replace. You'd put out all the embers. You'd scrape them out. You'd make sure that the problem is gone before you walk away. It's if you had cancer. If you had cancer in your body and I did surgery on you and I said, okay, I got the cancer out.

1:04:30Are you going to come back and see me again and do the blood test to make sure that that cancer is gone? Yes, you are. And if it's still in there, it's going to be smaller, but we're going to go and attack those little pieces that are still there. So that's what it is. We needed to stay. And you say we can't stay there forever. We've been in, you know, we've been in Germany. We're still in Germany. We've been in Japan, you know, for many, many years. And, you know, Korea, we're there in support in Korea. So we can stay there for a long time.

1:05:12And so where's the line when many countries in all these other continents have dictatorships or leaderships that are, you know, what you could say is evil? They do things that wouldn't necessarily follow our ethical code. Where's the line where America has to say, okay, we're going to go in now and do something about it? I think we have to look at our own security and see how this country threatens our security. And you have to look at it from a humanitarian perspective as well. Is that because we have the resources and other countries don't? So that gives us a responsibility? I feel like we have the responsibility.

1:05:47I mean, when those people were getting killed in Rwanda, do we have some response? Is it okay for us as a nation just to look the other way when 800 ,000 people are butchered with machetes in a hundred days? when we could have relatively easily put a stop to it. Now, it's hard to know that, right? But that's the kind of judgment that our nation needs to make. And part of that judgment is, is 800 ,000, you tell me, are 800 ,000 civilian people in Rwanda, if we lose 10 Americans, trying to fight them or trying to put it to a stop, if we lose 10 Americans, what's the number? I don't know. You tell me.

1:06:28What's your opinion? Is it one American? I'll tell you, one American is every American that gets lost in combat is a heartbreaking travesty. It's horrible. Yeah. And I mean, you've lost friends in Iraq and throughout your military career. And, you know, to answer your question, I guess I don't know, like philosophically, it's easy for me to say there's no justification or there's this or that, or here's where the line is. But then I think, well, what if my daughter, who's now 18, wanted to go into Iraq and do things? I don't know how I would react. Like, I don't know if I would. Obviously, she's an adult.

1:07:06I can't stop her from doing anything. But I don't know if I would let her. Like, I'd be scared. What was she trying to do? Let's say she wants to fight evil. I'd say she sees evil and she sees this as a way to help. And, you know, let's say she says everything. She wants to, this is a potentially dangerous for America. She wants to help for various strategic reasons. She wants to help stop the evil that's happening to women over there in a worst case scenario. She wants to help people from stop being beheaded. She wants to do everything she can. But like you say, there's always the potential. She has to have the will to die to do that.

1:07:41I'd be scared. No doubt about it. And I think a lot of times people forget that because it's not their kids that are going to war. It's someone else's kid that is going to war. And - So that's why leadership could potentially break down at the top level if somebody, whether it's Congress or a president or, and I'm not making any judgments against anybody because I don't really know the answers, but it does sometimes happen where it's a breakdown because people don't have skin in the game. I would say, could that happen? Yes, that could. There's advisors to the politicians that are military guys.

1:08:18And I'll tell you right now, Now, a lot of times I think military guys get the reputation of being hawkish and pro-war when the fact of the matter is, I can promise you, there's no one that understands the loss of these kids better than people that have been in situations where they've lost their men, their friends, their brothers. And so they weigh that very, very heavily. Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, like guys like Colin Powell, for instance, he wavered, you know, throughout his career between war situations and no, we can't go in there. So that's an example where someone has taken both sides and tried to navigate these difficult decisions.

1:09:01So I respect that a lot. And I think it's just a very complicated issue. Yeah, I will tell you that from my perspective, you know, I talked about being aggressive earlier. you know the last time i got into a street fight no i don't even remember it's been a long time why is that i'm big i'm strong i know how to fight that means when people see me potential opponents some drunk guy walking down the street if you and i are walking down the street a block apart and there's a drunk bunch of idiots they're not going to say anything to me they're going to see you and they're going to go hey you know what let's talk some smack to this guy right so i think as a nation, that's how I want to be perceived.

1:09:46I want to be perceived that we have strength, that if somebody causes problems with us, we will effectively smash them. And I believe that the more that we have that image, and it can't just be an image, the more that is the reality, the less we will have to use our military and our blood in other parts of the world. And I guess that goes along with your discipline equals freedom statement. So we obviously want freedom to never fight a war, but in order to do that, we kind of have to show other countries that I'm echoing you. We kind of have to show the other countries that we have the discipline if we need it.

1:10:24Yes. We need to show people that we have the will that if they do things that are out of line, then we won't stand for it. And when people recognize that, when the rest of the world recognizes that, it'll make us a safer place and we'll have to use our military less, in my opinion. Again, who am I? I'm just some guy talking on your podcast, but that's my opinion. But you've been there. You've seen it. You've done it. You've seen the worst. Live through it. You know, so I ask you because I value your opinion on this. And it's a question that I'm sure everybody thinks about and everybody kind of throws out answers and solutions and they argue about it in op-eds.

1:11:01And it's just all stupid, most of the opinions out there on either side. Just to summarize, you know, to make it clear, I'm not a guy that's sitting here saying, let's go to war. I don't want to go to war anywhere. You know why? Because I know these guys that are going to war. They're my friends. And you know what? I've got one son. He's probably going to go in the military. That's going to be him. I don't want, you know, like I said, people that have been in the military, they're the ones that are saying, hey, let's think twice about what we're doing. But again, I think in order to deter evil actors in the world, They need to understand that there's consequences that America will impose on them if they do things that are beyond what human beings should be doing to each other.

1:11:48So I wanted to talk to you about one thing, which I believe very strongly in, which is you have to be proactive when you're managing down in terms of firing people in a leadership situation or in terms of getting rid of people in some way or moving them around. And you have this one story where two managers underneath the CEO are both blaming each other and they're acting up. And the advice is fire them both. And I agree with that very strongly. As someone who's run companies, I always noticed if one person is a problem, that's like a cancer. And they're out there taking smoking breaks with the other employees and the cancer spreads.

1:12:26And you have to kind of, if you can't solve the problem very quickly, you have to eliminate the cancer or it spreads. and I think that's proactive. And I'm just curious, where you kind of picked up that instinct. Well, that definitely was something that I saw when I was in the military. There was a leader and a subordinate leader that couldn't get along. And hey, I can't get along with this guy. I can't work with this guy. I can't work with him either. And the commanding officer said, okay, it's Friday. When you guys come back in on Monday, have a solution of how you're going to work together.

1:12:56And I think that was completely fair. They came in on Monday and they both held the ground. I can't work with him. I can't work with him. And the commanding officer said, okay, you're both fired. And I, and it kind of surprised me because it was a very aggressive move by the commanding officer to fire two leaders that were getting ready to deploy, but he did it. And I get asked the question a lot of, Hey, I've got this guy that I'm working with and he's a, you know, he's an egomaniac and he's my peer. So I can't really do anything. And what should I do? And I want to tell the boss. And to me, that's a real indicator when you've got somebody that's good, has a lot of potential, they can work with anybody.

1:13:32I could work with, you're a hyper aggressive, you know, angry guy. I'm going to work with you. We're going to make things work. Oh, you're a laid back guy that really won't be too aggressive in making things happen. That's okay. I'm going to compliment what you've got going on and I'm going to make it good. And we're going to get things done. And I'm going to share the credit with you. I'm not looking to take the credit. I'm sharing the credit with you and we're going to, we're going to move forward. So I think it's a real indicator when I got a guy that works well with the aggressive guy and he works well with this passive guy and he works well with this egomaniac and he works well with all those people.

1:14:03That guy, I'm actually looking to promote that guy. But the other guy who, I can't work with this guy. I can't work with this guy. He's too aggressive. I can't work with this guy. He's too passive. Doesn't get anything done. I can't work with this guy. His ego is too big. That guy is basically raising a flag and alerting me to the fact that I'm not going to put him to a leadership position because every human being that you work with is going to have issues, is going to have problems. they're crazy, right? People are, all people, they're crazy. They do crazy, inexplicable things. And you look at them and you say, I can't believe this person's doing that.

1:14:36But what are you going to do? You're going to work through it. You're going to find a way to get the best out of everyone that you have on your team. So, you know, a lot of people write to me and say, oh, I'm feeling stuck. I'm behind the cubicle. I've been working here for 30 years. I don't like my boss. I don't like my job. I wish I could do things, you know, what I want to do in life, but I have mortgage and this and that. What would you recommend, you know, your extreme ownership plus the discipline equals freedom, which, you know, it's all related. What would you recommend are kind of like the first steps, someone listening to this right now, you know, someone saying, okay, this is easy for Jocko.

1:15:12He trained for 20 years and now he's building this business based on his training. Like it's all kind of flowing together. He's doing what he loves. What if somebody's listening to this saying, I want to do what I love, but I don't know how. I don't know what the first step is. so interestingly a guy on twitter probably a year ago sent me that you know 140 characters i hate my job want to do something else stuck what should i do you know he said me something like that i wrote back come up with an exit strategy execute and i didn't remember this right it was something i tweeted to a guy at 11 30 at night one night and whatever six months later nine months later, he reported back and he said, I came up with an exit strategy.

1:15:56I executed, I started this company or what, I forget exactly what he did, but he made the move. And so that's my advice. When something is happening in your life that you don't like, okay, well, what are you going to do about it? Come up with an exit strategy. You know, I don't promote quit your job tomorrow morning and get rid of all your stuff to have somebody sell all your things in your house and don't own anything. I don't recommend that. You can move in that direction. But what I recommend is come up with an exit strategy, a legitimate exit strategy. I'm going to need this much money in the bank, or I'm going to get rid of this stuff, lower my overhead on my daily, weekly, or monthly basis.

1:16:33I'm going to lower my overhead, and then I'm going to come up with an exit strategy. And then you execute it. And so it's sort of like... And I'll tell you one more thing is when you're grinding for the man, right? If that's all you're doing, it's going to burden you and it's not going to be fun. Once you say, hey, I'm grinding it for the man, but I'm putting money away and it's good. This is part of my exit strategy. Now, all of a sudden you're working hard because you want to get more money so you can execute your exit strategy. Next thing you know, you might turn around and figure out that you're good at your job and that works out well, or the other side of the spectrum, you still hate your job, but you've saved money and now you execute your exit strategy.

1:17:11So it's sort of like come up with this exit strategy, but you know the keyword is do every day do like a lot of people kind of sit and think about it or come up with the excuses or come up with the blaming but i think the important thing is every day do something and i see this even with all the things that i do i can sit around and read but i won't write anything unless i actually sit down in front of a keyboard and type what's the hardest part about sitting down at the keyboard and starting to write i would say telling myself i have to do it putting the gun to my head that i have to do it the hardest part in just about any task is starting it right for me because you know i've written a couple but i've written 37 books like you have or whatever but i've written close two books while i was working while i was doing other things and what i did was like okay i have to worry i the hardest part of it is opening up the laptop, opening up your word processor and starting to type.

1:18:10Once you're starting to type, okay, well, you're just in the zone and you make it happen. And people say, what do you do when you hit a writer's block or create? I don't care. Write anyways. Keep writing. Just do it. Just do the thing. Same thing with working out. What if you don't feel like working? It doesn't matter. The hardest part is getting into the gym. Once you're in the gym, what are you going to do? Lay on the floor and not do anything? No, you're going to finish it. You're going to do something. And that something is infinitely better than nothing. And for this exit strategy that you're working on, you have to do something like you said, every day, so that you're making progress towards your goal.

1:18:40Now, I talk, you know, people get into the big goal thing and all this, and I don't really want to go down that road. But, you know, you have your long term goal. And you have, and that long term, it's like shooting a gun. I've told this story before, when you shoot a gun, when you're looking at a target that's far away, after a couple seconds of looking at it, it becomes blurry in your vision. It's just, you get like your eyes water up a little bit. You just can't maintain that long distance focus. So what you do is you actually, when you shoot, you're shooting, you look at the front side of your weapon, which is, you know, three feet away from your eyeball.

1:19:16And the same thing happens with people's lives where they've got this long-term goal, but it's so far away that it gets blurry and they kind of lose track of it. And so, you know, they might, if they think about it on a Friday night after a hard week at work and they go, this job sucks. And I want, I want to do something else. I don't want to be under this grind anymore. I don't want to grind for the man anymore. But then Monday that gets a little bit fadey and Tuesday. So they're just doing what they have to do. If they take that long-term goal, they keep it there, but then they say, okay, what's something I can do today?

1:19:49What's something I could do tomorrow? What's something I could do the next day? You know what? I'm going to have my resume. I'm going to build my resume this week. I'm going to have a good resume together, or I'm going to put together my business plan. I'm going to do that this week. Or I'm going to save this much money. I'm going to work this extra. I'm going to go deliver pizzas and put a little bit money in the kitty. That's what I'm going to do. So you can't let the long-term goal be the only thing that's driving you because sometimes it's so far away that it gets blurry. So bring some short-term goals that you can actually execute on a daily or weekly basis so you can move forward.

1:20:20Like I wrote that, you know, people say, how long does it take you to write those books? I'll tell you right now. I wrote, I think this one's 30 ,000. The kid's book is like 30 ,000 words. I read a thousand words a day. That's 30 days. Book's done. Next book. And do I throw away some of those words? Of course I do. Do I have to go back and edit the heck out of them? Yes, I do. But they're going to be there. And then I have that raw material to work with and I can shape it and clean it up and dial it. I think people don't realize that if you write, for instance, a thousand words a day, right? Which takes like 45 minutes to an hour, by the way.

1:20:50Right. So that's 365 ,000 words a year. That's kind of like seven or eight books. That's the gulag archipelago. People don't realize that it's not, I don't want to say it's easy to write a book because it's not. It's very hard to write a good book, but you can write a book easily in a year. We don't know good or bad. You improve over time and you study books written by others and you put your best effort into it. But you still have to write the book and those thousand words a day. That's the discipline equals freedom. Like you don't have to worry about, am I going to get a book done? If you know, you're going to do a thousand words a day.

1:21:25So first off, I want to, again, recommend, you know, way of the warrior kid. This was a great book for me to read. So I'm 49 years old. I'm not a kid, but this is a great book because I think it really encapsulates a lot of the strategies you talk about in extreme ownership, which is also a great book to read. So I recommend both way of the warrior kid just came out extreme ownership's been out for a while, but the lessons always apply. What are some other books you would recommend just, I don't know, on leaderships, personal improvement, whatever? The number one book that I always recommend when I get asked this question is a book called About Face, which is written by Colonel David Hackworth, who was an army soldier, started off as an enlisted guy, was at the tail end of World War II, didn't fight, but kind of learned lessons from the World War II veterans in Europe.

1:22:15Then he was in Korea and he was in Vietnam. And he is a very controversial figure. He is the first guy, the first kind of senior officer in Vietnam that said to the public, we're not going to win with this strategy that we're utilizing. And it's a huge book, 700 something pages. And it's not a book about leadership. It's a book about his life, but he was a great leader. And so when you read his book, you get just an incredible, if you're looking for the leadership lessons, there's leadership lessons on every single page. When I was in Iraq on my last deployment, for the first three months of deployment, when I'd go up to my room and I'd just open it up to a random page and read it, and there would be some immediate lesson learned that I would be able to apply.

1:23:00And then after three months, I needed something else. I was like full on, okay, I understand what's going on in war. I need to do something else for another half an hour. It was the electric Kool-Aid acid test. okay tom wolf yeah and and that was i found it somebody had left it there randomly and that was the book that i read and then i just read that book and then i went back to about face but but that was a great book too and there were some incredible things to learn about people in that book the other book that i always recommend is blood meridian oh yeah cormec mccarthy great book yeah to me i think that's maybe one of the best written books ever i believe it is i was an english major in college.

1:23:40And so obviously I read a ton and didn't read Cormac McCarthy in college, but, you know, read everything else, read a lot of Shakespeare. And Cormac McCarthy was the first author that I said, you know, cause Shakespeare is just Shakespeare. And Cormac McCarthy was the first person that I read that I said, this guy is at that level of depth in his writing. So Blood Meridian and the rest of his books are awesome too, but Blood Meridian to me is sort of a step above. I like The Road also. The Road is unbelievably good. Yeah. Unbelievably good. Any others? You know, I read on my podcast, I review books.

1:24:20And so I review books about war primarily. And there's so many incredible books that it's hard to narrow down. One of the things about, we all have little problems in life. And you open this whole podcast talking about how I'd been in all these intense situations and all that. And the fact of the matter is, when you compare what I did in my military career, compared with so many other military, both enlisted people, officers, leaders, troops, they've done infinitely more than me, infinitely more than me. And I had a, you know, I did what I could in my career, but there's, you know, you look at the Battle of Guadalcanal or, you know, the battles in World War I.

1:25:06And the things that those guys suffered through and went through is just, it's incredible. And I had a gentleman on my podcast who was a pilot in Vietnam. He was shot down two times. The second time that he was shot down, he was captured. and he was in, he ended up in the Hanoi Hilton, which was the Hanoi Hilton because it was actually nice. He was in South Vietnam marching up to the north and held in bamboo cages with no food, starved, tortured, woke, wake up in the middle, wounded when he was shot down, and he'd wake up in the middle of the night and there would be rats eating at his wounds.

1:25:49So when you know that people can get through situations like that. And, you know, here I was on, on, when he came on my podcast and I'm, he's got a book called through the Valley. And I'm reading these excerpts from his book about things that happened to him, about these rats eating at his wounds, about mock executions that happened to him. But to me, you know, my podcast is it's about war and it's about leadership, but ultimately what it's about is it's about human nature. And it's about the way people interact. When you want to learn about human nature, I'm not going to say it's the best place to learn about human nature, but war certainly amplifies the visibility of human nature and it makes it very clear to see.

1:26:33And so I like to study that and read books about that because at a minimum, when you look at your own life, there's not too many people that are in a worst situation, at least in America, of being locked in a two-foot tall bamboo cage with their feet shackled and having rats gnaw at their wounds. And the fact that human beings can suffer through that and survive and come back and be awesome citizens and very humble and live meaningful lives is just, it means a lot to me. And it makes me realize that we really are blessed to be in the situations that we're in. And, you know, that's, I'm quoting one book, but I've done 70-something podcasts.

1:27:14And most of them have pretty incredible stories that human beings have lived through and survived. And also, you know, those that didn't survive. And I always want to pay a tribute and honor to those that sacrificed their lives to give us this opportunity that we have now to sit in New York City, drinking white tea and recording a podcast about life. So I feel lucky to be here. I do as well, Jocko, and I'm really grateful you came on the show. Jocko Willink, thanks a lot. And again, Way of the Warrior Kid and Extreme Ownership, How U.S. Navy SEALs Lead and Win. I recommend them both. They both have been useful to me in ways I didn't expect.

1:28:00So I really appreciate you writing these books. So thanks a lot. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me on.

1:28:31We'll see you next time.

1:28:41is always free. Huzzah! Pluto TV. Stream now. Pay never. You're welcome.