How to become a Super-communicator | Charles Duhigg

26:33He literally, every single time he tries to recruit someone, they basically either turn him down or threaten to report him to the police, and he might get deported. And he's just terrible. Until one day, someone in his bureau says, hey, there's this woman coming to town who works for the foreign ministry of her home country back in the Middle East. And Lawler never told me what country it was, but it's going to be pretty obvious. Yeah, I kind of figured it was pretty obvious when she started talking. Yeah. Particularly in the timeframe also. Right, it's early 1980s, right? And this woman is coming from a place that just had a religious revolution and the Ayatollah has taken over.

27:14We can guess what country it was. But she works for the foreign ministry and they're like, look, she's coming to town. You should go try and recruit her. So he bumps into her in a restaurant. He bumps, right? He manages to bump into her in a restaurant. Actually, I have a question about that. Is it because he first did some spying to sort of see what her daily routine was? Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He and some other folks in his bureau would keep an eye on kind of where she was going. And so he saw her go into this restaurant she'd been in a couple of times and it had like bar-like seating so you could sit, so strangers would sit next to each other.

27:51And he like darts in and he sits next to her and he strikes up a conversation with her and he tells her that he's an oil speculator. And they develop this relationship and they're like, you know, he invites her to lunch the next day and they go sightseeing together and like they become friends. And she keeps on telling him about like, she, you know, she came to Europe because she was so upset about what's going on inside her country and she works for the government, but she wants to, she wants to reform the government and they're not letting women study things in college and they're making them wear the hijab.

28:22She's really upset. And so eventually Lawler says to her, they have this private dinner and he says, look, I care about the same things you care about, about making your country better. And I don't work for an oil company. I work for the CIA. Will you help us figure out how to improve things in your country? And she starts shaking her head and crying and gripping the table and say, no, no, no. And she just completely is overwhelmed. She tells him, they kill people in my nation for this. I cannot believe that you struck up a friendship with me without telling me your CIA. If my country ever knows that we went to dinner together, they would arrest me and my family.

29:05She just takes off immediately. She's so upset. So Lawler goes back and he tells his bosses, who he had already told, like, I've recruited this woman. He tells his bosses, like, nope, she didn't go for it. And his bosses are like, no, no, no, you don't understand. We already told Washington, D.C. you recruited her. Like, if you don't make this happen, you're going to get fired. Like, this is your job is to recruit this woman. So Lawler is freaking out at this point because he's going to get fired. And so he realizes he has one last chance with Fatima. He can take her to dinner one more time before she never returns his phone calls.

29:42And she's about to go back to her home country. She's been there for about a month. So they go to this restaurant and Lawler has this notebook full of ideas on ways to recruit her. And they sit down for dinner and she's like super glum, right? And he asks her why. And she says, you know, she's going home in a couple of days and she thought that she would like figure some things out in Europe and things would get better, but she hasn't really figured anything out. And she's just really disappointed in herself. So Lawler tries to make her feel better. He tries to cheer her up. He starts telling her like stories about when they were, you know, sightseeing together, reminiscing and none of it works.

30:20She's super glum. She stays glum. They get to dessert and Lawler thinks to himself, like, should I make one last attempt to recruit this woman? And he, he just decides, no, I like nothing I say is going to make her can, is going to convince her to take a suicidal risk. It's just, if I say something, she's just going to get up from the table and walk off. Like, I am terrible at this. I have failed. I just need to accept that. And so he sort of has this moment where he he's thinking that, and instead of trying to cheer up Fatima and instead of trying to persuade her, he just decides to kind of match her and be really honest.

31:00And he's like, look, I, I understand how frustrated you are with yourself because I'm incredibly frustrated myself. Like I'm so bad at this job. I wanted this job so bad. And like, I see other people who are good at this job and they seem to have something that I don't have. And like, I understand how, how hard it is to disappoint yourself. And, and as he's saying this to her, she starts crying and he feels terrible. Right. He like reaches over. He's like, I'm sorry, I did not mean to make you cry. Like, this is not my goal. I just, you are honest with me. And so I want to be honest with you. And he starts patting her arm.

31:35And as he's doing so, she says, no, no, I can do this. This is important. And Lawler is like, she's so inexperienced and so overwhelmed. He's like, no, no, I don't want you to work for me. Like, it's fine. You don't need to work for me. Like, I don't want to put you in any danger. I don't want to put you in any risk. and she goes, no, no, I hear what you're saying about wanting that we both want the same thing for my country and I think I can help you. The next day she goes to a safe house to get training in covert communications and stuff like that. She becomes the best asset in the Middle East over the next 20 years.

32:13And when I asked Jim Lawler why this happened, he said he actually doesn't know why she changed her mind. Except that during that conversation, during dessert, for the first time, instead of trying to manipulate her or persuade her, he just matched her. She was glum. She was upset. He wasn't matching her. He was trying to make her feel better. But instead of - He was like trying to solve things and she needed to be hugged. She needed to be hugged. And so when he hugged her, for the first time, she could really listen and trust him, and he could listen to her. And Jim Lawler actually went on to become one of the top recruiters in the CIA's history.

32:54He teaches other people how to do recruiting now. Well, you know, the cynical side of me says, okay, this is great. This is going to make my conversations better in lots of different situations. But there's a cynical side which says, are we really just, it's almost like we're computers, that if someone puts the right programming in there, then I can elicit reactions. So like, let's say, okay, you say he was being honest, but let's say that was his technique. I'm going to, okay, she's feeling I'm, I'm going to match her and then boom, I'm going to recruit her this way now. And he could have basically used that, done the exact same thing, but did it more as a thought out technique instead of just being, you know, quote unquote, just being honest.

33:35And it would have elicited the same reaction. Well, it's interesting. So you're right. The communication tactics and tools and skills can be used to manipulate as much as connect. But what's interesting is that humans have this very finely tuned authenticity detector. So there was a study that was done where researchers would make audio recordings of friends laughing together over a joke and strangers laughing together pretending to be laughing together. Oh my God, this is so great. I can't wait to hear what the result is. they would play one second clips, just one second of people laughing, nothing except for laughter, and listeners could tell with 90 % accuracy who were friends and who were strangers.

34:24So not whether they were fake laughing. Could they tell if they were fake laughing or not? They could tell whether it was fake. They could basically tell whether it was fake or whether it was real. Like, are these people really connecting or are they pretending to connect? and that's based on one second of audio, totally decontextualized audio. If you think about how the humans have evolved, we formed societies where we can't police everyone all the time, right? We can't make sure that everyone's honest. We can't make sure that no one's stealing. So what we do is that when somebody does something that feels like a betrayal, we overreact to it.

35:04If you're walking down the street and somebody kicks you by accident in the leg, it's not going to bug you that much. If they kick you in the leg on purpose, you're going to be furious, way more furious than the pain caused by the kick. It's because our ability to detect authenticity is very, very high. So maybe, you know, if you have one conversation with someone and they're so talented, maybe they can fool you. Maybe they can manipulate you with these tactics. But if you're talking about becoming a spy, you've spent three months getting to know this person. The risk you're going to take includes that you might be killed for it.

35:44If they're being inauthentic, you're going to notice, right? And that's what Lawler said. Lawler said, like, look, if I, in the future, when I tried to manipulate people, when I tried to recruit people without being completely authentic and honest with them, it just didn't work. work like the only way we're not computers because the only inputs that actually will listen to are real inputs if you try and make it into something that you're not feeling maybe you'll get away with it in one conversation but with your kids like think about how well your kids know the difference between when you're really listening to them and when you're pretending to listen to them.

36:24It's true. But I think there's a gray area where you could do both. You could say to yourself, I'm going to honestly share my experiences because that will then get the response I need. Well, except that what's the response you need? So you talk to people all day long for this podcast. I'm sure that you want to elicit something from the other person. You want them to be interesting or you want them to be open and emotional or you want them to be vulnerable. And I'm sure that you have little skills that you use to draw that out. But if you're phoning it in, then it doesn't really work, right? No, I agree.

37:10But like, what I do is, and so whether this is a technique or whether this is honest, I would say it's a little bit of both, I just become insanely curious. So Charles, I have like an hour or so with you and you wrote, just wrote a book about a topic I am really fascinated about, which is communication. So anything I don't understand or anything, like you say something. And if I just have like, oh, that rubs me some way. Like I can't, I can't let that go. I got to ask a question. That's an honest question. Yeah. Although I know I'm going to do that to have a fun podcast. So it doesn't demean the authenticity of what you're doing simply because it serves a higher purpose, right?

37:52I think the example of this, if somebody spends their entire life pretending to be moral and they only do moral things, even if they don't believe it, even if they don't feel it, they're a moral person, right? Just because you're curious for a reason does not mean that your curiosity is inauthentic. If anything, it's actually you being more honest with me, saying like, look, I'm really curious about what you're doing. And by the way, in the communication literature, this is known as a quiet negotiation. By the way, I'm asking you this because I'm hoping that other people will be interested in it too, that it makes for a good podcast.

38:29That doesn't make our conversation less meaningful. It makes it more meaningful. Now I know what you want out of the conversation. And I believe you've been honest with me. You know, it's funny with the kids because parent-kid conversations are a great environment to test this out, like the computer programming idea. Like, is my little kid a computer that I could, like, force a certain response? But you're right. You still have to combine some authenticity. So I never – when they did something wrong when they were little, I would never get angry because, you know, when you get angry at somebody, they just – they tune you out.

39:03They just walk away or whatever. But I would say – someone told me to do this. say, don't say you're angry, say you're disappointed in them. But it only really worked if I really did feel disappointed. But I would sometimes have to produce, like sometimes I didn't care that much. So I'd have to produce in my brain that feeling of disappointment. And then really, if I really was disappointed, they'd start crying if I said I was disappointed in them. So what I hear you saying, and tell me if I'm getting this wrong, is that oftentimes when we're talking to someone else, we discover what we feel without realizing it, right?

39:41Like the fact that you had to tell your kids that you were disappointed meant that you had to figure out like, are you actually disappointed? Look, if you weren't disappointed at all, you would not be able to generate any disappointment. Right, right. And as you're saying this, the memories are coming back. Like that was pretty clear that sometimes I would say this and it wouldn't work if I didn't really feel it. Like if their mom said, go talk to them. and I didn't really care, then we would all just end up laughing. Like a six-year-old's BS detector is very, very high when it comes to their own parents, as anyone who has children can tell you.

40:16Yeah. It's very, very hard to pull one over on your own kids.

40:35let me ask you this. So with kids too, sometimes, and particularly, you know, from generation to generation, different generations disagree with each other about different topics. Like, let's say a sensitive topic right now is this Israel Hamas situation. And it's very, very generational actually, because we see what's happening on college campuses and so on. And if you, you know, I've had this conversation several times now, if you really feel someone doesn't have the full information or they have misinformation, And of course, you always have to keep the option open that you might be wrong personally.

41:08But how do you really, and you talk about this in the book, but how do you personally navigate these hard conversations about very painful topics? Yeah, it's a really good question. And there's a whole chapter in the book about this group that brought together people who are for gun control and people who are gun rights advocates and brought them together not to try and get them to agree with each other and not to get them to even find common ground, just to see if they could have a civil conversation without screaming at each other. And it was a big success until it went online. And the reason why it was a big success is because they taught people, first of all, a technique called looping for understanding that I can describe.

41:51But more importantly, they taught people that the goal of a conversation is not to convince the other person. It is not to figure out what you have in common. The goal of a conversation is simply to understand what the other person is trying to tell you and speak in a way that they can understand you. If you've done that, the conversation has succeeded. So let's take the Israel-Hamas, right? You're on campus and you're talking to someone who's very different than you. If you say, my goal is to get you to admit that Israel is terrible or that Gaza is terrible, you're probably not going to succeed.

42:26It doesn't matter how many facts you have at your disposal. well, it doesn't matter what evidence you have. They have their evidence. Like, you came into this conversation already understanding what you believe. You're not looking to the other person to educate you. But if you come into that conversation and you say to them, look, I understand that Israel and Gaza is really important to you. I want to understand why it's important. Tell me what you believe about this situation and why you believe it. And, and here's the deep question, tell me why it's important to you. Like, tell me of all the things that we could be talking about.

43:00This one seems to be really important to you. Explain to me why. Okay, so you ask that question. They answer the question, right? They tell you what their response is. Then we get to looping for understanding. So step one is you ask a question, which we already did. Step two is once the person has finished answering the question, we repeat back to them in our own words what we just heard them say. So, oh, what I hear you saying is that for you, this is a continuation of oppression that has always been aimed at brown and black bodies, and you don't like the fact that the United States, you feel ashamed that the United States is, or what I hear from you is you believe really deeply in Israel's right to exist, and their right to defend themselves.

43:46And we have this precursor of the Holocaust showing how important that is. So you repeat back what you heard them say in your own words. And then step number three, and this is the one we usually forget, you ask if you got it right. So what does that do? So let's say, okay, somebody says, okay, I acknowledge that October 7th happened. That was clearly done by evil people, but so is bombing children an evil thing. And then let's say someone says that to me and I respond and say, so what I'm hearing you saying is that you really don't like it. the fact that children are getting killed and it's not their fault.

44:27And then what's the key thing there with, did I get that right? Because when you ask if you got it right, you're showing them two things. Number one, you genuinely want to understand what they're trying to tell you. Right? You're not just waiting your turn to respond. You're genuinely listening and you genuinely want to understand. And number two, it might be that they say, yeah, yeah, no, that's right. You get it. But they might also say, no, no, no, no, no. It's not really about the kids. I mean, kids are part of it, but it's more about like even bigger injustices and, you know, the systems that create injustice.

45:00And so now you understand a little bit better. And then because they feel listened to, because they believe you want to understand them, they, and again, this is hardwired into our brains. We can't help it. They are more likely to listen to you. So after repeating that back maybe once or twice or three times, having that saying, did I get it right? Until they're like, yeah, I think you understand what I'm saying. then you can say, can I tell you how I see this from my perspective? Would it be okay to share with you why I see this a little bit differently? Because I want you to understand where I'm coming from.

45:33And what's interesting there is if you truly take out the element that you're trying to convince them, then I feel that could work. If you say, for instance, look, these teenage girls got raped on October 7th. that could be any anybody we know for instance that's just so disturbing to me i don't even know how to respond to it and and then you just leave it at that yeah yeah i think that like and that's much more persuasive right like like it might be and and inevitably what's going to happen is that you guys are going to actually influence each other a little bit like you're both going agree that rape is terrible, that the Hamas terrorists were terrible, and perhaps Hamas isn't Gaza or maybe, you know, you get to a deeper conversation where you're finding places where you can understand things together.

46:28But if you just come in and you, and we know this from study after study, anti-vaxxers is a great example of this. The CDC, when the vaccines first started coming out and people didn't want to get the vaccine, the CDC was like, look, if we just educate them enough about the science, they'll get the shot. Like, we just need to tell them the facts. And doctors would go into these exam rooms, and they would try that. And the people they were talking to were like, no, no, I know the facts. Like, I've done my own research. I've gone online, and I've read all this stuff. That doctor's not going to convince them that they're wrong, that they're ignorant.

47:03Like, trying to convince them of anything is only going to alienate them. What's much better is this thing known as motivational interviewing, where I ask you why you believe that. I loop for understanding. I show you that I'm listening. And then I tell you why I believe what I believe. And inevitably, some of what we believe overlaps. And people say like, look, I don't want to give my kids a shot because it's untested and I think it's dangerous. And as a doctor, I could say, nope, I got all the studies. It's not dangerous. or I could say, I totally hear that. I hear that your children's safety is really important to you.

47:41The reason why the shot's important to me is because I see these kids come in and they're sick. And once they come in, there's nothing I can do for them. And so I just worry about their safety when they're unvaccinated. Now we're talking about the same thing. We both care about our kids' safety. We both care about the health of kids. And I'm not trying to convince you that my approach is right. You're not trying to convince me. But now at least we're hearing each other. And you might say like, oh, yeah, like I understand. In fact, what happens in about 50 % of cases is that at the end of the conversation, that person says, okay, I'll go ahead and get the vaccine.

48:21So why are they convinced but not the doctor? So sometimes the doctor is convinced, right? Sometimes the doctor says, you know, I understand why you don't want to get the vaccine. And I agree from your perspective, like you shouldn't get the vaccine. That's okay. But like, and when, if you're saying like in 50 % of the time, their minds are changed, it almost seems like facts are stronger than emotions. Like ultimately facts, when people are on a common playing ground, all of a sudden, then facts win. Oh yeah. No, facts become really powerful once we're at a place where we can listen to facts.

48:59But the problem is that like, when we start a conversation in conflict, I don't want to listen to your facts and you don't want to listen to my facts. In fact, you don't even believe that my facts are facts and I don't think your facts are facts. So until we can, until we can match each other, until we can achieve this neural entrainment and really, really connect on some level, it doesn't matter what the facts are. We ignore them. And then you're right. Once we find something that where we can talk to each other, where we can connect, then facts actually matter because we're listening to them.

49:30You know, it reminds me of like whenever I've gone for marriage counseling, like in my past marriage or whatever, it always felt like BS to me because the big technique among marriage counselors is look, you're going to say something or she's going to say something. The other person's going to repeat exactly what they said. And then like you just said, then ask, did I get this right? And then it's the other person's turn. And it just feels too much of like a technique when it's orchestrated like that with the counselor in the middle. And it never really worked for me. Although I guess intuitively or instinctively it works when people are just having a conversation.

50:06Well, okay, so let me ask this. First of all, I would say it sounds like going into those marriage therapy sessions, you weren't necessarily looking for a conversation. That this is something you were willing to do because your wife was asking for it. But it's not something you were necessarily enthusiastic. Is that fair? Yeah, or maybe I just wanted to be right all the time. Yeah. And look, not everything has to be a conversation. When I say to my kids, I want to talk about your room, I'm not actually looking for a conversation about their room. I'm looking for a polite way to tell them you've got to go clean up your room right now.

50:40Yeah. So let's set that aside, whether you actually want to have a conversation. Now, let's say the counselor had told you, okay, don't repeat back what this person says. What I want you to do is I want you to listen to them. I want you to think about what they've said. And I want you to try and explain to me what you are hearing. Try and explain to me what you think they are trying to tell you. Like, that's actually a really restorative process, right? Because if your wife is saying, he's a jerk, he doesn't provide enough emotional support for me. If you say, okay, here's what I hear you saying.

51:19I hear you saying, when I do things that make sense to me, sometimes you see them as being insensitive. And I hear you saying that that hurts you. And that it feels cruel for me to hurt you that way when I can just be kinder. Did I get that right? at that point she's going to feel listened to and you actually might learn something about what's going on in your relationship that you didn't recognize yeah that's that's interesting so you really there's really a lot of self-awareness involved like you really have to know at a at a second layer of thinking what is my real goal here yeah and you have to have the intelligence to be open to hearing something painful about yourself well and can i just point out you just looped for understanding me, right?

52:08You basically restated what I just said in your own words. And so I feel listened to, and you feel like you actually understand me. And that wasn't too formalistic. That wasn't too awkward. Sometimes when we're in a marriage therapy, I mean, look, marriage therapy is tough to begin with, right? It's not going to be a good time. It's not a party. Yeah. But I think what's important is that when we are a little bit more self-aware when we just think, and it's just literally thinking half an inch deeper about a conversation, thinking half an inch deeper, noticing half an inch more what's going on in a dialogue makes you a super communicator.

52:47Super communicators, they don't have special powers. They're not born that way. It's literally just a set of skills any of us can learn. Do you think younger people have just as much ability to be a super communicator as older people? The reason I ask is, it reminds me of Arthur Brooks' books comparing fluid intelligence with crystallized intelligence, i.e. the intelligence of a younger person with the intelligence of an older person taking into account their brain changes and so on. So I'm wondering if maybe older people are just naturally better. No, I think that oftentimes older people have a little bit more practice and a little bit more experience.

53:30But there's 10. I mean, okay, when you were a kid, so sometimes I say the best way to identify who is a super communicator in your life is if you were having a really bad day, who would you call that you know would make you feel better? Like, does someone come to mind for you? Yeah. Yeah, me too, right? We know immediately who we would call. That person is a super communicator for you. You're probably a super communicator for them. Now, if I asked you that same question when you were 11 instead of now, your answer might be different and it would be for different reasons, but you still knew super communicators when you were 11 years old.

54:05You knew the kids who like were kind of effortlessly popular at school or who everyone just liked to talk to because they just, they made you feel better about things. Like it's not, it's not about how old we are. It's about, it's about whether we've learned to think a little bit more about this. Now, I will say most super communicators, people who are consistently super communicators, most of them, if you ask them, will tell you that they went through a period when they were really bad at communication. When they were awkward as kids or their parents were getting a divorce and they were the one who had to be the mediator between them, they had to think a little bit more about communication because, you know, their survival depended on it or their happiness depended on it.

54:50So, yeah, we can all be super communicators. It's just a question of do we want to spend that time and energy to get there? Well, and this is related actually. So online, you've mentioned that a couple times in the book that these conversations are happening in person and online results are different. Is it because online that authenticity antenna doesn't really work? So I think what it is, so I mentioned the chapter about the gun control conversation, right? And so all these people went, there was 100 people, 50 % gun control, 50 % gun rights. They teach them looping for understanding and a couple of other techniques.

55:29They have a great weekend. Everyone basically, nobody changes each other's mind, but they walk away saying like, we really connected, we understand the other side. Then they set up a Facebook group for all these folks and a couple of additional folks. And within 45 minutes, people were calling each other jackbooted Nazis online, right? Like it all fell apart once they went online. And I think what was going on there, and this is what research shows us, is that we often assume that communicating one way is the same as communicating all ways, right? Now, we've actually learned to intuit some differences.

56:03When phones were invented about 100 or became popular about 100 years ago, there were all these articles about how no one will ever be able to have a real conversation on the telephone. That they'll just use it for like sending stock orders or grocery lists. And they were right. At the time, if you listen to how people talked on the telephone, they didn't know how to talk to each other. It was really hard for them to have conversations. But by the time you and I become teenagers, we can talk on the phone for like six hours a night, right? We learned, and in fact, what we know is if you are talking on the telephone versus face-to-face without realizing it, you will over-enunciate your words on the phone.

56:41if we can see each other like we can on this video call if we turned off our cameras right now our vocal variety would become higher as we're putting more emotions into our voice because we can't see each other and put differently we have learned different communication techniques for different channels now we've been talking on the phones for over a hundred years we've been talking face-to-face for millennia. Most people got their first email address in like 1997. We've been talking online. When it comes to texting via emojis, that's like seven years ago that it started. So I think what happens when people make a mistake about online is it's that they assume that I can talk to you online the same way that I can talk to you face-to-face.

57:30But if you can hear my voice, you understand when I'm being sarcastic. But if I send you a sarcastic email, you can't hear the sarcasm. You think I'm being serious. So part of it is kind of like the things you're missing in text, which is the sound and the volume and the tone and so on. But I wonder also if there's just like this neural, what did you call it? Entrainment? Entrainment. This neural entrainment doesn't happen because our brains are simply not next to each other. Well, so you and I are nearly entrained right now, right? And we're separated. I'm in California. You're in New York. There's a lot of distance between us.

58:11It's not so much the distance that creates the entrainment. It's whether we have agreed on the same set of rules for this conversation. So think about like, when we're texting someone, we know that the rule is you can be very short and brusque in a text, and that doesn't mean anything. But if I'm short and brusque in an email, you might read it differently. And if I called you up and I was like, James, and I said, James, I'm going to see you at five. Okay, later. And hung up the phone. You're going to be like, why is Charles so pissed at me? What's going on here? It's because we've agreed on a set of rules for texting and a set of rules for email and a set of rules for phone conversations.

58:53and when we forget those rules or we ignore those rules, that's when we fail to connect. But it doesn't matter if we're next to each other. It doesn't matter what type. We can entrain just as easily as long as we're in sync on what rules of communication we're using. I see. So if you're online and you're right, people say things online that they wouldn't say person to person. And if everybody just agreed, think first, would you say this person to person? If you wouldn't, then don't text it. Then the rules are a little closer. We're a little closer to understanding what the rules are. And maybe that then, you know, entrainment happens a little more easily.

59:35Or it might go the other way where I say, okay, so when you're online, it's okay for you to be brusque in a way that you wouldn't be. And I'm not going to get offended by that because I understand in texts we're actually brusque with each other. The key is just, again, this is the matching principle. that we need to be having the same kind of conversation at the same time. It's not just about emotional, social, and practical. It's also, have we engaged in this quiet negotiation to figure out what the rules are for this dialogue? And then do we both abide by them? And the book is all or mostly about one-to-one conversations.

1:00:14Like, you know, in some sense, most of it's like high impact. You know, it's husband and wife, colleagues at work, difficult conversations or recruiting someone as a spy. There is also the whole social thing, which too, which is the part I really needed the most. But there's also another aspect of conversation, one to many. So if you're giving a talk or you're performing a comedy or something like that, if you're giving a talk, that's one to many. How would you use these principles in one to many? Sure. So the first question is, is that a conversation? Like, do you want to have a conversation with the audience or, or do you want to just tell the audience what you're thinking and feeling and let it, let them absorb it?

1:00:57Well, okay. My, my theory there is that the best public talks are feel like conversations. That's exactly right. And we're seeing that right now on the campaign trail, right? There's, there's one candidate in particular who like seems to, to take an entire room of people and make them feel like they're having a conversation with him. and it feels organic and natural for the people in that room. So what's going on there? Well, oftentimes it's the same basic principle, just kind of writ large, right? If I'm feeling something, if I'm feeling an emotion, I'm going to show that emotion. So I say, I am angry.

1:01:38I'm angry that this is happening. You know, I'm angry that, you know, whatever the issue is, stick in your little, the issue of the day. Or if I'm saying, okay, and now I know you're angry too. Tell me that you're angry. And the crowd roars back, right? And then at some point I say, but being angry isn't enough. We need to actually go and try and solve this problem. And the way you solve the problem is by showing up at the polls on election day and voting for me. Now we've moved on to a practical conversation. I want you to go tell your neighbor about this idea. I want you to tell your neighbor how important this is.

1:02:17Now that's a social conversation, right? And if it's good, the audience is saying it back to you. The audience is looping for understanding. They're telling you, I want to go vote. I'm going to go talk to my neighbor. Oftentimes you hear politicians say things like, promise me you'll go talk to a neighbor tomorrow. And people stand up and they shout, I promise, I promise. It's funny how it cycles through all the three types of conversation, the, you know, the, the practical slash facts, the, uh, you know, are we all feeling, you know, the same way and helping each other, you know, agreeing that we feel the same way and then, uh, social.

1:02:53Yeah. And, and that happens in almost every conversation. What you'll notice is that in every meaningful conversation or every sort of sustained conversation, all three kinds of conversations come up. I wonder, is there a fourth thing there? Also, there's a call to action, which is vote. Yeah. In that case, in that example. Yeah, I think that very explicitly in that example, and I think that's a little practical, right? It usually falls into the sort of the practical conversation, like how do we make a plan? Like how do we turn this feeling into a plan of action? But you're exactly right. And it's not like there's no other forms of conversation.

1:03:27These are the buckets that many different kinds of conversations fall into. But then there's sometimes when like, if I go to a movie and like I'm watching a movie next to my kid and we're just like whispering like things we observe to each other, you know, that's a conversation. But maybe it's not emotional or practical or social. Maybe it's just us sharing with each other. But for the most meaningful conversations, the ones that actually matter the most, then you find these three elements, the practical, the emotional, and the social. what's interesting to me as a podcaster like both of us have been podcast hosts and podcast guests yeah and you know and it's interesting because so i've been on a lot of podcasts and i see the poor podcast hosts it's like they have their questions in advance and they stick to them and you and they're just going from one to the next and i don't want to say they're bad podcasters Maybe they're nervous or they're just learning.

1:04:27But those, I really get annoyed. And they're not like real conversations. I think it works for podcasts too. Like the best podcasts are just conversations. Like I try to imagine you and I are just, we haven't spoken in years. We're just calling each other up to update. And then that's the podcast. And I think the reason why that approach works is because it feels like you're listening to me. Whereas if you ask a question, I give you an answer. and then you just move on to the next question on your list, you're not really listening. You're not trying to connect with me. You've basically got a list of questions you want to get through.

1:05:02And think about how frequently that happens face-to-face. I'm saying something and I feel like instead of listening to me, you're just waiting your turn to speak. That's not a conversation where we feel connected to each other. But as you're very talented at this, when you say, look, I think what you're saying is or here's what I'm hearing or let me show you that I'm listening, then it makes me want to listen to you and do the same thing back. Well, the best example in your book was one of the first stories in the book, the Felix, I forgot his last name, the FBI negotiator. Sigala. Yeah, and I loved that story.

1:05:42Basically, it was almost like this magic trick that he did. It's totally, and what's amazing about Felix Sigala is it's totally a magic trick. This is like, if this guy walked into a room, there is no way you would think he was a super communicator. He's like pudgy. He's got like a Ted Lasso, like a substitute teacher mustache. His voice is kind of nasal and reedy. He actually, as a kid, was really, really shy. And his father was a con man, right? Like he was a, or no, his grandfather. His grandfather was a con man. He was totally ashamed of like how he had grown up. and because he had to think about communication, he got really good at it.

1:06:22And one of the things he does that's really powerful is he uses laughter. And we know this about super communicators. Super communicators tend to ask 10 to 20 times as many questions as other people, right? Just a huge number of questions. Most of them we don't even register because they're questions like, hey, what did you think about that? Or like, what happened next? Super communicators tend to laugh more, but they're not laughing in response to anything funny. They're laughing to show you that they want to connect with you. And then our natural instinct is to laugh back and we're showing them that we want to connect back.

1:06:57And will that laughter register as authentic laughter on that other study that you mentioned? Yeah, I mean, yeah. Yeah, like if I tell you a joke and you kind of, or not even a joke, if I just, if you say something and I go, yeah, no, I totally understand. you're not going to think that I'm like uproariously entertained by you, right? But the laugh seems like authentic. It's an acknowledgement that it's okay. Yeah, it's an acknowledgement that you said something. It is authentic. You know, with AI out there now and wearables a thing, like what if just on my smartwatch, it keeps track of everyone who I'm talking to.

1:07:37And then when I get home, I look at the watch and say, okay, this guy was authentic. This guy wasn't authentic. Like all this stuff could be made right now. The technology's there. That's kind of what NASA did, right? When NASA was looking for astronauts, they needed to figure out a way to tell the difference between people who were emotionally intelligent and people who could fake being emotionally intelligent really, really well, but probably were going to crack when you're like in space for six months at a time and you're living next to someone. And one of the ways that they found to do that was to pay attention to basically record how people laughed.

1:08:12when the interviewer would walk in, the interviewer would do something like drop all their papers or make some joke and laugh really, really loud, like bigger than you would expect. And then they would pay close attention to whether the applicant matched that laughter or whether they just gave a polite chuckle. And that helped them know who actually wanted to connect with other people. So you're absolutely right. We could work that into our technology and figure it out. Now, the better thing is just to actually just pay a little bit of attention, right? Like if you were asking me, if you were being inauthentic, if you were just going down your list of questions, I don't need a watch to tell me you're doing that.

1:08:52I pick up on it pretty quickly.

1:09:10so what's the point of the research you think it's a point really just to say this definitely happens even though and and i'm asking specifically about a research study you mentioned in the book So there's a chapter on negotiation or a section on negotiation. And you talk about three Harvard professors, William Urie. I've actually spoken at a TED talk right after he spoke. He's one of the professors. And they wrote this book, Getting to Yes. And what struck me in that study was one of the guys had been involved in real negotiations, like releasing the hostages in Iran and, you know, the Camp David Accords and so on.

1:09:48So in the real world, he says this happens, but then they did a study to show that this happens. So I wonder sometimes what's actually research and what's, we just kind of know this stuff anyway. Well, so I do think we all have an instinct on how to communicate, right? This is, communication is human superpower and we all have evolved to communicate. That being said, sometimes we don't listen to our instincts. Sometimes we don't understand how to listen to our instincts. Also, sometimes it's easier for those instincts to thrive when we have skills that we can use. So are the skills that I'm describing and that William Murray describes, are they manufactured skills that nobody knew existed?

1:10:31No. Everyone hearing looping for understanding knows that this is something that's effective. But sometimes you need someone to tell you, look, there's a system for this. There's a process. Instead of letting it happen happenstance, just do these three steps and keep these three steps in mind. And then a couple of weeks later, it's automatic. It's subconscious. You do it without even thinking about it. So I think you're right that part of what's interesting about communications research is that it tends to reveal things to us that as soon as we hear them, we say, oh, of course that's true. Like, I knew that without knowing it.

1:11:06But until someone points it out to us, until someone teaches us how to do it, that knowledge isn't usable. I see. So it's like, even though you might instinctively know it, or even though you might suspect it, that the fact that, you know, somebody did a study and shows that 99 out of 100 times this happens, now you can kind of confidently say, okay, I knew that worked anyway, but now I don't have to think about it. Like it just, it works. I'm going to think about the things that are hard for me. Like that study in particular showed that negotiation is not a zero-sum game where one person wins, the other person loses, but that both sides could win.

1:11:43And that, I think, is instinctively understood by negotiators. But I think if they maybe, what you're saying is if they know it in scientific research, they could relax on that part, knowing that it works, and then move on to more difficult parts for them. Well, and think about how easy it is to get into a mindset where I say, my goal in this conversation is to convince you that I'm right. Like, if I can just give you the facts that I know, you're going to agree with me. Right? And if somebody says to you, look, look, it's not going to work. Like, I understand why you think that, but research shows it's not going to work.

1:12:19Your goal in this conversation should just be to understand each other. And if one of you changes your mind, that's the thing that's going to get you there. Like, I understand why that instinct exists to try and just prove to the other person that I'm right and they're wrong. but it also is instinctually true that when I tell you it's not going to work, you know that I'm being right. And I guess also, like take the hard conversations as an example, the more emotional you are in a conversation or the more a conversation triggers some emotions, maybe you forget these instinctive rules that you know most of the other times and you have to be reminded because you say this study happened so I know I shouldn't be angry or try to force feed my opinion or whatever.

1:13:04or just anxious, right? Think about how frequently we go into a conversation and we just feel kind of anxious about it. That's every conversation I ever have. Right. So there was a study that was done by a woman named Allison Wood Brooks at Harvard Business School where she had people write down three topics they could discuss before they started having a discussion with a stranger. And so it took like seven to ten seconds. People would write down like, you know, last night's TV show and the football game this weekend. little dumb stuff. They'd put it in their back pocket. And what they found is that those conversations went much, much better after people had done that.

1:13:40Not because they discussed what they had written down. Most people didn't ever discuss what they had written down. But feeling like you had something to fall back on made them less anxious. So oftentimes, part of teaching these skills is to say to you, you don't need to be anxious going into this conversation because you can always ask a deep question. Like you have something to fall back on. And if you're in a if you're in a conflict situation, if you're arguing with someone and you're feeling overwhelmed, just loop for understanding. Just repeat back what you heard and ask if you got it right.

1:14:12And that's going to, if nothing else, give you time to settle down a little bit. These skills are important because we remember them when it's hard to remember things. I mean, this is so valuable. It's valuable in a lot of contexts. I mean, for myself personally, I could think of relationships, you know, marriages and sales, negotiating, podcasts, public speaking. I mean, there's a lot of different areas where just knowing this stuff at a deeper level is really important. So can I ask you a question? Sure. Okay. So you've been doing this podcast for nine years. Yeah. And, and you've, you've, I assume in your life, I know you've had some conversations that have gone well and some conversations that have gone less well.

1:14:53And what do you feel like, how are you a different communicator today than you were nine years ago? I think I am more of a blank slate seemed like the wrong word to use, but I, I am more likely to not have any opinion when I'm talking to somebody. So I'm very, and maybe a way to say that is nonjudgmental, but it's not even nonjudgmental. I have no reason to judge because I go into a conversation with no opinion. So I'm not going to judge if they have a different opinion for me. And I think that, and what I fall back on is curiosity. So like what, and I feel the curiosity in my body. And so I think those two things, completely unopinionated.

1:15:42So I'm able to absorb the other person's and really listen to the other person's opinions. and the other thing is just insanely curious. And I allow my body to tell me, interrupt here because you have a question. Right. And what I love about that, I'll loop for understanding, what I hear you saying, and tell me if I'm getting this wrong, is you've learned to be more in the moment. Rather than, you've learned to listen And the goal has for you has become understanding what the other person is trying to tell you more than trying to figure out who's right or wrong or what the greater truth is, but rather hearing what they're saying and listening more closely and being curious to really understand them.

1:16:32Is that right? Right. Which, which, by the way, might not be the best podcasting strategy because very successful podcasts are often very opinionated. And, you know, and I had, you know, so Mehdi Hassan, who had an MSNBC show, he came on the podcast when his book came out. And he said, there's no way you're neutral on all of these issues. And maybe he's correct, but at that moment, I was really neutral on every issue out there. And he refused to believe me. I believe you. I believe you. I think that when you're curious and when your goal is to understand, it's often easy to set our own opinions aside in a very genuine way.

1:17:13And you're right. Maybe some podcasters do really well just by bloviating. But I would say even if it's not great for podcasts, and I actually think it is, even if it's not great for podcasts, it's good for conversations. Do you think you're a better communicator today than you were nine years ago? Oh, yeah, absolutely. And part of it is a function of age, I think, because you do kind of learn through experience. But part of it is because I've dealt with, look, let's just take politics as an example. I've had on Republican presidential candidates, Democrat presidential candidates, independents.

1:17:52I've had people from every side of the political spectrum. and I will guess that every guest I've had probably thinks I think exactly like they do. Or at least that you're interested in understanding how they think, right? Like, I don't think you agree with everything. I don't even know if you agree with that, but like, I know that you want to understand what I'm telling you. And like, that's what feels good. Like, our brains actually evolved to really feel a lot of pleasure from being understood. I mean, I always use as an example, I've had the same business partner since about 1999. Like, so what is that now?

1:18:29Almost 25 years. And he is pro-life, which he'd be happy to admit in public. And I'm pro-choice. And usually the two don't mix very well. And we've talked about this issue many times, but I would say in a weird way, we've never had an argument about that issue. We were able to talk about it and then move on. And do you think when you talk about abortion with him, are you trying to convince him to change his mind? No. And nor is he really trying. Look, I've had girlfriends in that time who have had an abortion. And he has not judged me, or maybe he judges them internally in his mind. I don't know.

1:19:20but we've never really had any kind of fight over it or anything. And my guess is at the core of that, and again, tell me if I'm going to get this wrong, is that you guys have a lot of respect for each other. The truth of the matter is no two people agree on everything. My wife and I, she's a biologist. I don't really like nature that much, to be honest with you. Yeah, it's boring. Yeah, I'd rather go see a movie and eat some Chinese food than go for a hike in the Redwoods. But that doesn't mean that we can't connect with each other. It doesn't mean that we don't have a great marriage. But that is, though, part of a successful marriage, which is that you could have different interests but still be recreational companions for each other.

1:20:10Absolutely. And know how to talk to each other. So when she comes home and she tells me about something she saw in nature, like we can have a conversation about it where I love her passion. And I'm so interested in her passion because she's passionate about it. Whereas I would have seen the same thing and been like, whatever, it's another fish. I don't care. Right. Yeah, no, definitely. Like I'm interested in, for instance, chess. My wife could have zero interest in that. Like doesn't know the rules, doesn't care, doesn't want to hear about, oh my gosh, Ding, Loren just won the world championship.

1:20:44She doesn't care. But we find common ground. Competitiveness, she understands and what makes you a good competitor and what doesn't. So you always can find common ground. Absolutely. You find that place where you can match each other. And that's where the connection starts from. Well, Charles, when does the book come out? So the book comes out, no, February 20th. It comes out February 20th. People can pre-order now. So it's called Super Communicators. They can find it on Amazon or Barnes & Noble, anywhere you go, Audible. And also, if people want to reach out to me, and I'd love to hear from people, my email address is charles at charlesduhigg.com.

1:21:23Or if you just Google me, you'll find my email address on my website. And I actually read and reply to every reader email that I get. Wow, that's impressive. It might take a week or two, but you'll hear back from me. Again, because I think communication is important, right? Like this is real stuff. All right, then let me add, this brings up a question. This is where I am the worst at communicating is I'm incapable of getting back to people. So like someone writes me, and usually the nicer someone communicates with me, this is over emails or texts or online or whatever. Usually the nicer someone communicates with me, I feel like I have to really compose a really great response.

1:22:08and then two weeks go by and then you're like, okay, yeah. I can't do it. I can't do it. Something is wrong with me on this. Like I have like a mental problem about responding to people. Okay, so here's the thing I would say. As long as you and other people have agreed on that basic rule, then it's fine, right? If I email you, if we're friends, I have a friend who is terrible at email. So I'll email him and I'll be like, hey, you want to have dinner? And half the time he literally won't even reply, right? And it's easy for me to think, oh, he doesn't actually like me. But no, he actually likes me.

1:22:42I just understand the rules are he's terrible at email. He is just bad at email. And that's okay. I accept that and I acknowledge that. I think the key is it's not that one thing is good and one thing is bad. It's who you are, but it's about communicating to the other person who you are. So that if I send you an email and I never hear back from you, I might think it's because you're pissed at me or something like that. But if everyone knows, if you tell people, please send me an email, I'm bad at responding, but that doesn't mean I didn't appreciate it. Versus me going on a podcast and saying, if you email me, I will email you back.

1:23:18Now we know the rules. Yeah, I wonder how I can explain to people the rules in advance, though. Oh, so actually, I think a lot of people have auto responders. Like, I'll send an email to someone and I'll get something back that says, hey, thank you for your note. I only check email between, you know, three o 'clock and five o 'clock. So if you don't hear back from me, it's because I haven't gotten a chance to see your email. If it's really important, send me another email, right? They tell you the instructions on how to communicate with them. And at that point, you know, I see, that's a good idea.

1:23:49Maybe I should do that. I always think I can do better, but maybe I should just do the autoresponder, explain the rules and then communicate when I can. I'm afraid it'll make me even worse though. Like, oh, I sent an autoresponder that's good enough. Well, and the truth is, not everything deserves a conversation, right? Like sometimes people send you an email and they're like, hey, I love your show. And they don't want anything in return. They just want to let you know that they loved your show. And I love those emails. For anybody in my audience, I love those emails, but I'm not good at responding to them.

1:24:23So Charles Stuhig, the book is Super Communicators. I love this topic and conversation. I probably have a good collection of books about communication and particularly as regards persuasion and things like that and negotiation, but you cover all aspects of communication. What a great book. We didn't even talk stories about the Big Bang Theory, how that show became such a great show using some of these techniques. And you talk about Netflix's internal culture and how they communicate. So many great stories in here. Charles Duhigg, author of also The Power of Habit. and I always forget the exact phrasing, but better, faster, smarter, or smarter, faster, better.

1:25:05And I think you were on for both books, right? Yeah, yeah. I love coming on this show. It's really fun. We have to get you on when you don't have a book. Exactly. Yeah, that'd be fun. Well, thanks so much, Charles. It was good catching up also. And look, great book, February 20th, 2024, Super Communicators.

1:25:31Thank you.