In short
The James Altucher Show: Episode Summary
Episode Title
How To Get Anyone To Fall In Love With You
Episode Description In this episode, James Altucher is joined by Robyn and Jay the Engineer to discuss the dynamics of romantic and business relationships. They explore the transition from friendship to love and the nature of intimacy across various types of relationships. The episode emphasizes the importance of self-disclosure and features a list of 36 questions designed to foster interpersonal closeness.
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Key Concepts and Discussions
Transition from Friendship to Love
- Friend Zone to Romance Zone: The episode delves into common experiences of moving from friendship to deeper romantic connections, emphasizing that this can also relate to business and community relationships.
- Intimacy Across Relationships: Intimacy is not limited to romantic settings; it applies to friendships and professional interactions as well.
The Importance of Self-Disclosure
- Research Insights: Discussing Arthur Aaron’s research on interpersonal closeness, the hosts highlight key patterns for developing close relationships:
- Sustained: The interaction should continue over time.
- Escalating: The nature of the communication should deepen.
- Reciprocal: Both parties should engage in self-disclosure.
- Personalistic: Focuses on revealing personal information about oneself.
The 36 Closeness-Generating Questions The hosts present a list derived from the research paper "The Experimental Generation of Interpersonal Closeness", explaining how these questions can facilitate deeper connections. Here are some examples:
- If you could choose anyone in the world, whom would you want as a dinner guest?
- What would constitute a "perfect" day for you?
- Take 4 minutes to tell your partner your life story in as much detail as possible.
- If you could wake up tomorrow having gained any one quality or ability, what would it be?
- What is your most treasured memory?
Dynamics of Intimacy in Relationships
- Escalation of Questions: The structure of the questions is critical; they should be asked in a specific order to gradually increase intimacy.
- Long-term Intimacy: Building intimacy requires ongoing self-disclosure and vulnerability, likening it to watering a plant for growth.
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Episode Highlights
- Personal Stories: Robyn and James share anecdotes about their own experiences in moving from friendship to love.
- Discussion of Fame: The conversation touches on the implications of fame, with differing perspectives on the desire for public recognition.
- Humor and Light-heartedness: The interactions between the hosts are characterized by humor, with playful banter about personal preferences, backgrounds, and imaginative dinner guests.
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Key Takeaways
- Building Relationships: The path to forming deeper connections often involves structured self-disclosure and mutual sharing.
- Intimacy Techniques: Techniques discussed can be applied in both romantic and professional settings.
- Caring and Authenticity: Authentic interactions lead to stronger bonds, whether in friendships or romantic relationships.
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Conclusion This episode of "The James Altucher Show" provides listeners with valuable insights into the nature of intimacy and the art of fostering closeness in relationships. By utilizing the proposed questions and understanding the dynamics of self-disclosure, individuals can enhance their interpersonal connections in various aspects of their lives.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Look, as a manager of people, as an employer, as an entrepreneur, and as an investor in startups, I can tell you the most important thing for your business is the quality of the quality of people. you hire. The best part is that great candidates are already on LinkedIn. Employees hired through LinkedIn are 30 % more likely to stick around for at least a year compared to those hired through the leading competitor. And I will tell you that the great thing about LinkedIn is that you're not just looking at random people. You're able to see the people who your friends and trusted peers and colleagues who they trust and who they've hired in the past and who they recommend.
0:42And hiring doesn't have to be complicated. Realistically, when you have a business to run, you don't want to spend hours on hiring. You want to hire the right person as quickly as possible. That's why LinkedIn Jobs AI Assistant suggests immediately 25 great big candidates daily so you can invite them to apply and keep things moving. Hire right the first time. Post your job for free at linkedin.com slash altature. then promote it to use LinkedIn Jobs' new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find the top candidates. That's LinkedIn.com slash Altucher. Post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.
1:19This isn't your average business podcast, and he's not your average host. This is the James Altucher Show.
1:32So, Robin. Yes? Do you think you're in love with me? Oh, no. No, I don't think I know. I know I'm in love with you as well. And at some point we could tell the story of our first date where I think I fell in love with you before you fell in love with me. But I was definitely a love at first sight person. But we were friends for a while. We were friends for over a year or about a year. and I think a lot of people often are in the friend zone with people they are in love with or potentially in love with. And while we're talking about romantic relationships, some of the ideas that I'm gonna talk about here and that Robin and I are gonna talk about here also apply to business relationships, employer-employee relationships.
2:20It's not just, intimacy is not just about romance. Intimacy is how you work with people It's about your friendships. It's about your relationships within the community. Now, of course, you're not romantically intimate with your boss. At least I hope not. I mean, that does happen if you fall in love with your boss. Jay, try not to fall in love with me.
2:43But that's not what we're talking about here, although I'll refer to it a little. So there was, and in a separate podcast, Robin and I are going to talk about what your IQ is. And I don't mean your intelligence quotient, but the intimacy quotient of your relationship. So that's in a future podcast. But this one is specifically a technique to move from the friend zone or let's say the, you know, employee zone to the, well, let's just stick with the friend zone for a second. The friend zone to the romance zone. And I could ask, is it possible? I feel like I've tried a million times. It's never possible.
3:22well let's see how you think after this technique so uh and this is not like some pickup scene like i'm assuming already that you're not really in a bar or uh a party and you're meeting someone for the first time i'm assuming you know you know somebody you're on a date and you're trying to figure out how to kind of uh make you know on a date everybody is taking in a ton of information like you're like where is he or she taking me um what does he or she look like what is he or she smell like what is he or she you know kind of the external things what do they do for a living what are what's interesting about them in their resume and then but then there's the more kind of like how you interact how you make someone laugh and that sort of thing so this is just kind of one aspect of it but so i i was looking at a lot of different research on this and there was a paper with a ton of experiments.
4:20If you want to read the original paper, which is hard to read because it's academia, the paper is called The Experimental Generation of Interpersonal Closeness, A Procedure and Some Preliminary Findings. And it's by the main authors, Arthur Aaron from SUNY Stony Brook, but there's also professors from UC Santa Cruz, Arizona State University. There's a bunch of professors who did this research and combined their findings. The main conclusion is, is that one, and I'm quoting them, one key pattern associated with development of a close relationship is sustained, escalating, reciprocal, personalistic self disclosure.
4:59So there's a lot of words there. So again, I'm going to, I'm going to break this down. So they look, so they look at not only romantic relationships, but again, friendships, Let's say you just started a job and you want your boss to notice you more, or let's say you're pitching investors or doing sales. So that's what they mean by close relationship is you go from stranger, being a relative stranger, to being closer. All right. So it doesn't mean it's a lover. Right. But I'm going to talk about it in the context of romance because I think that's the most common. I mean, it's not the most common, actually, and it's not even maybe the most important.
5:39But I mean, I think people who are in love with each other do what I'm about to suggest automatically. But so that's why they say close relationship among peers. But the key pattern is sustained, meaning it continues over time. Escalating means it increases. Reciprocal means it goes both ways. Personalistic means it's about yourself. Self-disclosure, meaning revealing things about yourself. And so escalating means you don't start off with like, it's not like you're on your, your, the first minute of your first date and you say, let me tell you about the time I tried to kill myself. Like that would be, you know, that wouldn't be escalating.
6:20That would be, you know, jumping off the roof. You've escalated too much. A reciprocal means both sides are revealing. And of course it's gotta be, why does it, why do you think personalistic is important? Why do you think it has to be self-disclosure as opposed to like, oh here's some interesting facts about life what do you mean by uh what was the word self disclosure yeah it's about you you're saying things about yourself that are maybe revealing that nobody that very few people only people close to you might know trust yeah i think trust is is is a good one like oh he trusts me and that's why i think if it escalates too fast that's a bad sign because whoa whoa why is this person i barely know this person he's trusting me too much right yeah because i always heard that like oh man you're revealing yourself too much you know you have to like you you want to be an open book at the same time you want to keep it mystery a little bit but i that's why the escalating is important start off small and if they're and you know kind of encourage them when you start off small also it's easier to encourage and and by the way we're going to get to the actual 36 questions that this study uses to get people closer.
7:31So, and then we'll see how they escalate. I think the key is you get someone to say, Oh, uh, well, we'll see some of the questions, but if someone starts off small, then their brain tells them, Oh, I am the type of person who reveals personal things to this almost stranger. And so as their brain gets comfortable with that, then it's possible to escalate. So yes, this is a technique but i think the other thing too is is that um you're you're spending something you're you're when you reveal something about yourself like you just said jay you know people even say oh keep things close to the vest you're you're you're spending a little bit of your mystery advantage in order to get this vulnerability advantage and i think people are afraid to do that so uh you know that's important yeah that's it's funny when you said the the the words uh They also remind me of what Chuck Palahniuk said the other day.
8:24It's like, never start your book with the most important stories. Right, yeah. And you know what? I had to think about that because I know of a lot of writers who do start with their most important stories. And I think often in a book, I mean, I can think of many, many examples where people do start with their most important stories. So I'm still not entirely sure about that. But perhaps the most meaningful stories, yeah, maybe that's different than important. So we'll see. But there's something else I was thinking. Oh, it also reminds me of David Litt, who came on. He was the speechwriter for President Obama.
9:04And he talked about how in a good speech, you want to build a ladder of meaning. Like first things that have small meaning, but everybody can relate to it, but they have small meaning. And then you get to bigger and bigger meaning. like, you know, the civil rights movement. So he, you know, he broke down a Martin Luther King speech and, you know, Martin Luther King talks about how he was sick and this happened and this happened. So, okay, you care about someone because they're sick and you want them to be better. But then he escalated it until finally he's talking about, I have a dream and that's the, I have a dream speech.
9:37So, so anyway, the important thing is though, they give in this research, they give a list of questions. They did on thousands of subjects and they determined that as people who were relative strangers, they made sure people were kind of like on the same page on some big issues. That's how they qualify people to be part of the study. So these people weren't, it wasn't like one was an evangelical religious person and the other person was an atheist. They like more or less were similar, but they wanted to compare. If two people ask these questions compared with two people who didn't ask these questions, who felt closer at the end.
10:17And the people who asked these questions felt much, much closer at the end. So the idea here is the technique is if you're on like a first date or a second date or whatever, try some form of these questions. And by the way, they mentioned it's important to do them in order because of the escalating aspect and see what happens. And then one more important thing before we go into the questions, all they measured was if people feel right now more intimate with each other after asking these questions. And obviously, if you want to build sustained intimacy and romance and love and marriage, you kind of have to be vulnerable and self-disclosing on a long-term basis.
10:58You have to keep watering the plant for the relationship to continue to grow. There's either growth or death in a relationship. So that's just important to remember. So Robin, how about I will ask you some of these questions and I will also answer them. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I'm going to keep quiet because I don't have any partner. Yes. You're the lonely bystander. You're the third wheel. You're the third wheel. There's another set of questions for if it's not a romantic relationship, they call it small talk questions. So if you're building, so I should have used these whenever I've been in a party and I've been feeling like introverted or awkward, these would have been good for me to know.
11:37You still want to do the same technique, escalate self-disclosure. but you have to start with small talk. Like, what do you think about the weather sort of thing? But anyway, okay, here's the slips for closeness generating. Slip is a question. Questions for closeness generating. Given the choice of anyone in the world, whom would you want as a dinner guest? You. Good answer. Other than me.
12:11I would say anyone in history even too. Anyone in history? Yeah. Well, wow. Oh, wait. So this is not multi… Like you can choose the answer? So it's like something they have to come up with? Yeah, it's self-disclosure. If it's multiple choice, it's not self-disclosure. It's test disclosure. That's hard because there's so many people. Yeah, and by the way, it almost sounds like… Probably like Einstein. Yeah, Einstein might be interesting. Why? Just because I think his brain was just so amazing. And so he would be so interesting to talk to. I wonder if he would be like, or if he was like so interesting because he was constantly thinking in his head, maybe he wouldn't be interesting to talk to.
12:58I think he was very creative. So I would enjoy a creative conversation like that. Yeah. Einstein's a good one. Ideas. And so, see, this is self-revealing, but in a small way. Like, it shows me, oh, you might be attracted to smart people, for instance. And so now I'm thinking of my answer. And the first one that comes to mind is Jesus, of course, just to see what the hell he was all about. Like, did he really? He was just a man. Yeah, but why was he able to inspire, you know, ultimately billions of people? now but okay but that almost seems too cliche and Einstein's a good one it's funny like we didn't ask QJ I'm just teasing who would you pick Jay this would be bad it's almost I wouldn't say offensive but I would love to have a dinner with Genghis Khan for some reason Oh, Genghis Khan?
14:03Because we're all descended from him No, but you know what? That's an interesting one Because this is a person who Without really There was no fancy I mean, there was big armies back then But they didn't have any fancy weapons or anything like that And he essentially conquered all of Asia I don't know if he got up to Europe But he did conquer all of Asia From China to the Middle East I'm just curious You live in such a cold country You have nothing And why would you have such a big ambitious Because back however thousand years ago, I assume there's no internet. You don't know what's out there.
14:37How do you know you'll be able to do all this thing? And what gives you the idea to do all this thing? You know what I mean? It's just curious. Yeah, why would he feel the need to basically conquer the world at that time? Why not just have a pleasant life with your family and relax? Yeah, because you always talk about if someone does something because they got hurt by some sort of, you know, someone or something before. I wonder why he got hurt before. Maybe he didn't like his home life and he figured, okay, well, I could rape and pillage all the time. That seems like, for him, that seemed like a better life.
15:17Yeah. I mean, like, there's something that he must have, like, you know, like, see or something that he might have seen or he might have done. that like, okay, this feels good. Because if you think about it, like you said, why is the need of conquering and also what... And also what his strategies were for conquering. Let's not forget, he was the most successful conqueror in history. I would say in terms of ranking, there's Genghis Khan, there's Alexander the Great who went all the way from, let's say uh eastern europe down to india and with persia along the way there was charlemagne uh not charlemagne the god who's been on this podcast a couple of times but charlemagne the emperor who was born in 754 a.d who basically conquered and unified europe it's probably the only time before and since that europe's been fully unified uh maybe there's attila the hun who was with his, you know, tribes were able to conquer the Roman emperor, which had lasted for, you know, 800 years about.
16:27What other successful conquerors were there? You know, Napoleon took, you know, both, I don't want to say Hitler was a successful conqueror because he really wasn't. He's not a conqueror. I don't think he's a conqueror. He's more like a dictator. Yeah, but the one thing about both Napoleon and Hitler messed up strategically, which is interesting that Hitler didn't try to learn from Napoleon's mistakes, is they both tried to invade Russia. And they both basically just lost their shit in Russia. Yeah, well, I think the only one that we mentioned that successfully conquered Russia is Genghis Khan because it's right there.
17:05Right, but Russia wasn't unified at the time. Yeah, it wasn't unified at the time, yeah. I mean, Russia's technique, Russia almost is the best defender because their technique is just to withdraw and withdraw and withdraw and eventually the Russian winter gets everyone. They have the serene advantage, right? That's what you call the geographical advantage because it's so cold out there. Yeah. You know, it's like I'm going through all the people. First off, having a podcast is almost like I get to answer this question all the time because whoever I have on my podcast is someone I've dreamt of having dinner with.
17:39Like, you know, you mentioned Chuck Palahniuk earlier. I mean, he's one of my favorite writers and I get to talk to him for one, two hours whenever he comes on the podcast. It's like a dream come true. Or Gary Kasparov, I get to talk to him about chess for a couple hours. It's great because now you and Chuck, I mean, I don't know how much you guys keep in touch, but he likes you a lot. He sent you a nice note after the podcast. Yeah, and... Even Robert Greene. Yeah, and Robert Greene is always so interesting and so smart to learn from. So it's like I get to answer, it's like I don't have to answer this question.
18:13I get to live it on a, it's not a, it's not a dream scenario for me. I've had 900 guests or a thousand guests on this podcast. There were all people I could have answered this question with all these astronauts, athletes, writers, you know, Richard Branson, you know, again, Gary Kasparov, all these people I would have. So I'm thinking more historical Robin picks kind of like, uh, uh, an extremely smart person, perhaps the smartest person ever. Jay, you picked one of the, probably the greatest conqueror ever. So I'm thinking of someone in the middle, and maybe this sounds a little corny, but Lao Tzu, the author of the Tao Te Ching.
18:47Because on the one hand, a lot of people assume Taoism is, and that Lao Tzu was a very spiritual person and Taoism is a spiritual sort of religion. But there's a huge theory that Lao Tzu had nothing to do with religion or spirituality and that the book, the Tao Te Ching, is completely a political text. And he was trying to advise the Chinese emperor at the time how to be a better emperor. So there is that theory that Lao Tzu and the Tao Te Ching is totally political. So I would be curious to have dinner with him because A, I think the Tao Te Ching, I've probably read it 500 times. It's useful for anybody to read, but there's a lot of insights and depth to it.
19:28But I want to kind of know where it comes from. Nobody really knows much about Lao Tzu. So I'd like to have him on the podcast or have dinner with him.
19:50look as a manager of people as an employer as an entrepreneur and as even an investor in startups i can tell you the most important thing for your business is the quality of the people you hire the best part is that great candidates are already on LinkedIn. Employees hired through LinkedIn are 30 % more likely to stick around for at least a year compared to those hired through the leading competitor. And I will tell you that the great thing about LinkedIn is that you're not just looking at random people. You're able to see the people who your friends and trusted peers and colleagues who they trust and who they've hired in the past and who they recommend.
20:33And hiring doesn't have to be complicated. Realistically, when you have a business to run, you don't want to spend hours on hiring. You want to hire the right person as quickly as possible. That's why LinkedIn Jobs AI Assistant suggests immediately 25 great big candidates daily so you can invite them to apply and keep things moving. Hire right the first time. Post your job for free at linkedin.com slash altature. then promote it to use LinkedIn Jobs' new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find the top candidates. That's linkedin.com slash Altachirk. Post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.
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22:11So, okay, I'm going to go to the next question. Robin, would you like to be famous and in what way no how come because i'm private i don't like i just i don't like i think a lot of people think fame though is and and and i think people are wrong about this but i think people think fame is when everyone loves you and infamy is when everyone hates you yeah you get both when you're famous yeah yeah i think like just pick a random actor like i don't know matthew mcconaughey i mean i'm sure a lot of people love him and i'm sure there's a lot of people who hate him or take jk rowling who you know sold like i don't know 500 million copies of her books and right now a lot of because she's famous a lot of people really hate her uh because of recent comments there's the jealousy uh you know you're not uh it's just you're not gonna live a private life yeah and also one thing i hate about i mean i'm not answering the questions but i just talking about being famous i hate about once you're being famous whatever you say would yeah would be like oh you have the responsibility to say this to you know to the public i'm like well you're just regular person.
23:29That's true. And you know, I am not famous, but of course, once a day, if I'm walking around, someone who listens to the podcast will say hello. And I'm really grateful for that. Please, if you see me anywhere, say hello. I really do love it. And every time I go to an airport, I run into someone who either reads my books or listens to this podcast. And it's very gratifying to me. And I would say initially, I thought my answer to this would be no, but I actually would like to be famous. And the reason is I think that's a metric for how many people are enjoying the writing I do or the podcasting I do like, you know, or a product that I made, for instance, which, you know, is probably a little bit more rare, but, uh, I, I think it's a good way.
24:18If you're, if you're, if you're any form of entertainer and a podcaster is an entertainer, a writer is an entertainer, even if they think they're a nonfiction writer and they're writing about very serious things, nobody's going to read your shit. If, if you don't entertain, if you're not interesting. So, you know, if you're, I've been a comedian, so I've been a performer, I've been, I've been a public speaker. So I've been a performer. And again, writing is a form of performance. Certainly podcasting is. So I have to say just by my actions, uh, even if I said i don't want to be famous then i do certainly want a huge audience for all of these different things i do i want to be liked for these things and maybe that's because at heart i was insecure when i was a kid i didn't have many friends my parents were gone all the time and maybe i felt like a replacement you know i'm getting all therapy now but maybe i felt the replacement for that lack of love and attention was oh the the attention of the masses so i went down this career path but you know you got to take the good with the bad then yeah no it's true and you have no control over it i have to say this year has been more bad than good i mean people love the podcast and love my writing and everything but i've certainly you know the the power of social media has empowered people more than ever to just be hateful and disgusting and despicable and and And it's been very disappointing seeing who's really your friend.
25:44That's right. I was going to say, plus you don't really know. It's pretty lonely because you just don't know who's your friend for real. Like, are they using you? Or do they just really like you for who you are? So when you don't have that fame and no one knows how much money you have, you're just a normal person, you get true friends because they're not after you for something else. They're just like you for who you are. And, you know, I think about it like ever since I started my first business or even before that, ever since I started managing people, almost all my friends in some way or other I work with.
26:25And that's not necessarily a bad thing, but I don't really have friends the way other people do. It's not like I rarely know my neighbors. I don't really I don't go. I don't do friendly activities. is like I don't go camping or vacationing with people or anything like that or go to a golf club with my friends. But now you're going to do that. We're going to go camping. We'll see. Yeah, we'll see. I'm introducing you to the real world. Okay, here's one. This is a good one. The next question is, before making a telephone call, do you ever rehearse what you were going to say? No. Jay? Oh, wait. Do I have to answer this?
27:07Yes. I have to because I am an introvert. So like I will have to rehearse and then have to rehearse what you reply and then have to rehearse what's my response. Oh no. I used to do that 100 % of the time. But now I don't. Unless I'm feeling very awkward for some reason. So sometimes if I don't return a call for a long time and then you ever get into that pattern where you don't return a call and then you feel bad. so that makes you even less want to return a call. Oh, I'll do it tomorrow. And then the next day, oh, I don't really want to right now. I can't deal with it. I'll do it tomorrow. And then you eventually have to return the call, but it's two months later.
27:47So I do rehearse those. Like, how am I going to apologize about this? I feel so bad. So I guess whenever I'm feeling awkward, I rehearse. Yeah, well, the thing is, I have to rehearse. But the funny thing is, no matter how much I rehearse, once I got on the call, all the response is going to be different. Yeah. Yeah. That's a weird thing. And then I just have to, I also have to rehearse how happy, how much energy I have to put into it. And Robin, I could see why you don't rehearse because I feel like you're used to just talking to so many different types of people on the phone. Like you talk to friends, you talk to family, you call.
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28:25I think it's a good practice, actually. Like someone said on the podcast the other day that they make sure at the end of the day, after a hard day of work, they call someone they're close to and establish contact and feel that closeness through a phone call. And I think you're one of those types of people and I'm like the opposite of that. Yeah, and also Robin's very straightforward. Yes. You know? I don't like to play games. Yeah. Like Robin, what would you say? If you hadn't called someone in two months and you feel bad about it, how would you respond? I don't think Robin's going to do that.
28:58I think Robin's just going to return the call right away. Yeah, I do. Yeah. Robin's never like miss a call I'm like oops I'm sorry I forgot I tell him the truth even if I get like just a message from a random person you're always reminding me like did you call that person back yet and I'm like I'm never going to call that person like why would I call that person back it's scary what if the person what are you scared of well it's repetitions for me it's repetitions So why if the person thinks that I'm dumb? I'm like a watermelon. Walking watermelon. See, that's your thinking though. Yeah, that's the thing.
29:38I scare myself. I would say when I used to… When I was like in the dating world and I would ask someone out on a date, I would rehearse that a little bit before making a phone call. Because those are scary. Those are really scary. Because how many girls will say hi to me? Yeah, particularly if you don't rehearse. Yeah. But you know, when you rehearse, I feel like when you rehearse, you can tell when someone's rehearsed it. Like I can. That's why you get to be a good performer. I know. I can't tell. So that's why I just do it on the fly. So, okay, next one. When did you last sing to yourself and to someone else?
30:22Okay, so the question would be, when was the last time I tried to sing? No, I feel like you, first of all, I'll say my answer, which is I sing to myself probably every day and often I'm joking around and I sing to you and that happens like either every day or every other day. I feel like we do that with each other all the time. Yeah, that's pretty common. So let me see. Okay, this is a good one. If you were able to live to the, and by the way, I'm doing this all in order, so I'm not looking for good ones. We just did, this is number six. If you're able to live to the age of 90 and retain either the mind or body of a 30-year-old for the last 60 years of your life, which would you want?
31:07Body. Yeah, I'm going with body there because I'm planning on being just as smart at 90 anyway. Yeah, but if you chose the mind, just think about how tragic that would be. Like all the things that you want to do, but you can't because... you're too old yeah i i go for body too because you know i collect bad jokes so by 90s i have a million dead jokes i can tell yeah um no i just think in general they're assuming the body they're assuming the mind declines the way the body does i don't think the mind has to decline particularly if you have a healthy body so i think you're more likely to have a healthy mind if you have a healthy body so i'll definitely keep the body just the science of this yeah if you have dementia just play mahjong yeah no but you mahjong you need to know what the other people are discarding come on jay do i have to teach you about every game yeah but but dementia uh like in chinese saying like if you have dementia you know just play mahjong it will help you know what if you you're right so if you want to avoid dementia it's good to play uh games or solve puzzles that require uh a some spatial uh ability which mahjong has and also memory uh which which mahjong very much has as does chess and poker and and card games and so on so that's why older people play bridge all sorts of games do you have a secret hunch about how you will die robin
32:39not really yeah i sort of like you're so yeah i kind of see that about you you're like kind of uh you're you're you're you're kind of strong like you you don't have any weaknesses i feel i i have a uh i have a secret hunch that i'll have a heart attack not because i have any kind of, you know, blood or cholesterol issues or anything, but I just think that I take on so many stresses and challenges for myself, even when activities for fun, like hobbies are always extremely stressful. Uh, like, like why would I take, like other people take as a hobby, you know, uh, uh, stamp collecting, why would I take standup comedy as a hobby where you have to like go in front of a bunch of strangers, tell jokes, and they could literally laugh at you and make fun of you.
33:28Like, why would I do that as a 40, whenever I started doing that in my late 40s? Wait, are you saying stamp collecting is not stressful? Have you watched National Treasure? What if they want that stamp that only came out that one time, they have to go to behind the Statue of Liberty to find the clue to find it? Maybe, I don't know. But there's certainly a lot of hobbies that are not stressful. Like looking in a telescope every day and mapping the universe. I don't know. whatever your hobby is or just watching football you might get stressed if your team doesn't win but it's not the same as that's like a passive stress whereas when you go on stage or if you play a game of like let's say your hobby is poker you could go to have fun and lose thousands of dollars or if you go play if your hobby is chess you could play a game in a tournament you could play for five hours and you could be winning the whole time and at the end you lose that's stressful.
34:25So I feel like I take on these, or you could be an entrepreneur and I take on these challenging situations that are heart palpitating stress. And so I have a secret hunch that some stress related illness is how it's, it's going to, um, so, uh, uh, so I want to get to the other sets. So, so we see the escalation, but also I'll, I'll just stop with this question number eight, but there's 12 questions in this set. Name three things you and your partner appear to have in common. So Robin, what are three things you think you and I have in common? Well, we like to talk about our ideas. Yes, that's true.
35:07We have a lot of fun doing that. And creating things. That's really fun. Yeah, yeah. We both like creativity. And we both like to watch TV. i don't know if that's you know what let's be proud of it like watch tv and proud like i love i i feel like our generation was the first generation that has basically been exposed to thousands and thousands of stories because of tv like our language of storytelling is so much greater than prior generations like think like robin think of your grandparents i bet you they could not tell us like they have a very old-fashioned way of telling us stories how i remember my grandparents and like we are much better at it because we've seen so many plots right that's true what's another thing though tv is kind of like everybody likes watching tv we like to go on walks together yeah and walking is very healthy and we like to travel together yeah yeah that's very true and we also love experimenting together yeah everything and i I think our values are similar, like our views on trust and parenting and relationships.
36:21I think our views on money are somewhat similar, maybe a little different. I think I'm a little more, oddly, because I've gotten broke so many times, I think I'm a little more cautious than you. But that's cautious in investing part. I think caution in spending, actually. Because as mentioned in our – Jay, have we even released the How to Be Wrong? I don't know about that. I'm wrong podcast because I talk about buying a house. No, yeah, yeah. I would never have bought a house. Yeah, but you like to fly private and I think it's too expensive. So I say go commercial. So I think we balance each other.
37:00All right, maybe we balance each other there. Yeah. Because I think private is just – it's just – I don't know. I now agree with you on that, but sometimes it's convenient. It's extra, as kids say. It's extra. I'm going to move to set two, which is supposedly more escalating.
37:26Is there something that you've dreamed of doing for a long time? Why haven't you done it? Go to space. You really dreamed of going to space? Yep. when you were a kid did you want to go to space yes when i was a kid i really wanted to go to space but now i have no interest but why haven't you done it then uh because i don't know i'm not an astronaut did you ever think about being an astronaut yes why didn't you go down that path great at math oh yeah that will stop being an astronaut that's sort of a shame you have to be at math to go into space well but but no it's possible it is possible origin yeah yeah but but it costs a lot of money by the end of our lives it'll be possible for anyone to go into space so i bet you robin at some point you will go to space um because that would be the most amazing thing ever
38:35something i've dreamed of doing for a long time i feel i've done the things i've dreamed of doing um oh you know what i mean i've done this in the past but for years so so when i started writing in 1989 or 1990 and i wrote four novels and dozens and dozens of short stories but that was then And I didn't publish any of them because I was just, I was building the skill. But now that I've been writing for 30 years, I really want to write a novel. And I think I haven't done it because I think the reason, the real reason I haven't done it now that I'm thinking about it, a lot of it stems from insecurity.
39:17That I could put so much effort into something for a year or two and then get it published, which takes another year or so. And then people just might not like it or might not read it. The average novel sells like a few hundred copies. And with, when I write articles or blog posts or whatever, I try to do it in a storytelling fashion, even if it's nonfiction. So I, and I try to be very revealing about myself and my failures and, and times I've been, you know, had hardship and so on. And I get immediate feedback. So I like things. So when you do standup comedy, you get immediate feedback. When you play a game of chess, particularly if you play, play speeches, you get immediate feedback, even being an entrepreneur, I don't enjoy as much cause I don't get immediate feedback.
40:00In fact, whenever I've started a business, I like to sell it as quickly as possible to get feedback at least as fast as possible. So I think the reason I haven't done lots of things I've dreamt of is I haven't got, I, I, one time I dreamt of getting a PhD. I didn't do that because it takes so long. I'm usually, I think I err on the side of doing things where I can get, where I can get immediate feedback and maybe the learning curve is very steep and I could measure success very quickly of the learning curve. Interesting. So, Robin, what do you value most in a friendship? Loyalty and trust. When do you know you can't trust somebody?
40:46When they start talking about somebody else to me. In a good way or a bad way? bad way. But we talk about people sometimes. That's, that's different. We're a closed loop. Yeah. But, um, yeah, typically you can tell, uh, someone gossips, uh, when, you know, they start gossiping, uh, about someone to you. That's a big red flag to me. Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, And I definitely value that. I definitely value trust. Loyalty, it's hard to say what you mean by that. Well, when I mean loyalty, I mean like let's say that there's somebody that you don't trust in your world of friendships and you are hurt by somebody and another friend sees that they've done that to you, but yet they're still friends with that person.
41:53Yeah. You know what? Actually, that's interesting. That's bothered me too with people. I would say for me what I value most in friendship is definitely trust is a big deal. It's got to be also, you know, I hate to say it, but it's got to be interesting to me. Like they, they offer not interesting, but they offer value in my life. Like they're there when I need them. They show up for me and I show up for them. So it's always mutual. And I think they're not fair weather. Like when things are bad, they don't abandon you. I've lost lots of friends that way. And I guess also it's not important to me.
42:35And it's important, I think, to say what's not important in this. It's not important to me what someone's political beliefs are. Like I have friends whose political beliefs are all over the place. Now I won't be friends with someone who I think is like racist or anti-Semitic or whatever. And I would never be, I don't like being friends with people who, who I think in general in their lives are dishonest. Like they cheat on people or, or they're, they're criminals. But I think what their political beliefs are, as long as I can have a conversation with them about it and it doesn't turn into like a hate, a shouting match.
43:09like like for instance one of my closest friends is my business partner dan we don't believe politically on a lot of issues but we're able to discuss them and we've actually never had like an angry argument in the 22 years we've worked together so even if we disagree on things right and that's important too so that we can move forward even through our disagreements so we could just like if we have disagreements in business those are important to resolve but we're able to resolve them after after 22 years of having these discussions. I think it's so silly to like just only have friends that that believe the same way you believe in politically.
43:46I mean, because it's not about the person like you could have. I mean, I don't care what they believe politically. It's just you you enjoyed their friendship and their morals. morals they're uh just i think that's the most important it's just the person so i think it's really silly to to just only be around people that are believe the way you believe politically yeah like let's say let's say you're like let's even take an extreme let's say you're in an old age home and you're 90 years old so it's not like you're gonna you might not even live for the next election where you climate change is you could care about it but it's not going to affect you because you're going to die soon.
44:30And there's a friend in the room next to you or a person in the room next to you who is fun to play games with. You talk about your memories. You've had similar experiences. But let's say you really believe in climate change and this person really doesn't believe in climate change. It's not like you're going to say, oh, I can't be friends with that person. Right, it's silly. Like, who are you going to be friends with? Like, you've got to... You just don't talk about it. And you just, I don't know, you just move on to that. Or if you talk about it, you could joke around like, oh, you probably, I don't know, want to burn the world down or whatever.
44:58anyway but uh uh i think that i think that's important to me as well and jay what do you value in a friendship uh i think i i think i'm similar with james like you know you show up for me and i show up to you it's the the trust and uh but it's mainly the trust actually like robin said too so like it's a bit of both of you and i really don't appreciate like people that talk sound to other people i use a lot of friendship like yeah he helped me before but like every time he he will like talk down to me he he treat me like like you know i'm second class person you know like he's like the big man in the house and i'm the small man in the house yeah yeah yeah so so it's interesting so this is set two we we've gone through set one but these are i just the last one or two questions were from set two which is escalating intimacy and notice like as opposed to like oh who do you want as a dinner who would you like to have as a dinner guest this is more like what do you value in a friendship you know uh is there something you've dreamed of doing this is more really about a deeper layer of you that you're asking about and so i'm gonna skip to set three there's like 12 questions in set two um like how here's a question how do you feel about your relationship with your mother that was in set two um we're not answering any of those no no i'm just i'm just saying them what roles do love and affection play in your life uh what is your most terrible memory, blah, blah, blah.
46:21But okay. Set three, this is supposed to be the highest, maybe not the most escalating it'd be, but this is the next level of escalation. This is what they, this set was the final set in their experiment that they did. Uh, make three true we statements. For instance, we are both in this room feeling, so you can see how now it's going from something really personal and deeper about you to now the escalation is now it's about us. We're like in this together now. So make three true we statements. Okay. So we are both in this room feeling excited about our podcast. Yeah. And I would say like on our first date, I think we were both in that restaurant feeling we wanted to talk more about each other than about the original topic, which was investments.
47:16Yeah. Uh, yeah. All right. I'll go to another question. I don't have to say three. Um, so you can see how these are escalating. Tell your partner, like, let's say it's a date, tell your partner something that you like about them already. So like on that first date I liked about, well, I liked how pretty you were. Uh, I liked how I I liked your values on parenting and I liked the, you had been through some really tough experiences and, and really I've gotten through them in amazing ways. And I really admired you for that. Yeah. So, I mean, the same made that first night. I really enjoyed the fact that you were a good listener, that you were very smart, very intelligent and very kind.
48:09and real. Yeah. Okay, here's another one. This is a funny one given what's going on with Dave Chappelle. But what, if anything, is too serious to be joked about? I don't want to answer that one right now. But here's an interesting one. When did you last cry in front of another person? Me? Yeah.
48:32About four days ago in front of my son. Really? What did you cry about? Oh, he was just telling me some things that he felt when he repatriated last year and it made me sad that he actually felt that way. Yeah. So, I mean, and that is very revealing. It shows, you know, what kind of mother you are. It shows you, you know, how you have empathy with people and so on. And I think probably the last time I cried in front of another person was in front of you. Yeah. I'm probably a crybaby in front of you. No. uh i remember when i remember when it was like overwhelming i cry in front of you too yeah you cry in front of me uh uh i remember when it was just overwhelming like everything that was going on with this stupid article which i keep talking about but i gotta move past it but but this is the last time i think i cried really in front of you was it was like i couldn't even believe so many people were like like jerry seinfeld one of my one-time heroes was writing an article just insulting me not even addressing the issues and he doesn't even know you yeah and people and people i did know who i had helped were trashing me on twitter and whatever and those aren't your friends you thought that's the sad part yeah that was the sad part actually to me And the reality is I've had so many instances like that, like, really, you are now trashing me?
50:03Like, it was a little overwhelming because I've had it happen before, but that was a little overwhelming. And, yeah. It's good that you know that now. It's good that you know who your really friends are because... Basically, just the two of you people on this call. No, you've got friends. I've actually met a lot of wonderful people through this podcast too. Yeah, you do have friends. True friends. Yeah, I have. You don't need so many true friends. I mean, you just need a few friends. That's all you need. Yeah. Just your inner circle. Here's some other sample questions. We don't have to answer them.
50:38Share with your partner an embarrassing moment in your life. You know, that's very revealing. I've got a lot of those. If you were to become a close friend, please share what would be important for him or her to know. Complete this sentence. I wish I had someone with whom I could share X. of all the people in your family whose death would you find most disturbing why uh obviously any of our kids yeah would be uh share a personal personal problem and ask your your and and ask for advice on how she he or she might handle it so again these are like very not only revealing but you're including the other person so that's the escalation so the first one is you know of the, who would you want to have dinner with sort of variety?
51:21The second set is, you know, telling things about yourself that, you know, like what's your dreams and stuff like that. The third thing is either saying something embarrassing that you wouldn't normally say, normally say about yourself, like when was the last time you cried or they're about us, like, tell me how you feel about me. So, so that's like the next level of escalation. And again, the key always is to have nonstop you know this is so if you want to if you're on a date or you're in an intimate situation or with a potential stranger or a potential you know romantic partner escalating intimacy like this is very powerful and this scientific study and there's been other studies like this uh they show that it works and again the paper is the experimental generation of interpersonal closeness and they kind of give all these questions there which you don't have to use these questions, but they kind of give a sense of the kind of escalation.
52:20Now, what if it's just small talk at a party, not with somebody you're going to be a romantic relationship with, but maybe it's a boss or a coworker or, uh, someone you're selling or a neighbor. Uh, so there's a different set of questions, uh, for that. And I'll just, I'll just read quickly some of the questions. We don't have to answer them right now. Uh, when was, so here's in the first part, the beginning of small talk, when was the last time you walked for more than an hour? Describe where you went and what you saw. What was the best gift you ever received? Do you read the newspaper often and which one do you prefer?
52:58What is a good number of people to have in a student household? If you could invent a new flavor of ice cream, what would it be? So I always feel like, I don't know how I would bring those questions up. Like how would you bring up the ice cream one? What's a new, what's a new flavor? If you could invent a new flavor of ice cream, what would it be? I just say that. Okay. How about you guys answer that question? What's your favorite ice cream flavor? And then say, well, if you were to make one up, what would you make up? What would you make up? Me? Yeah. I felt like all the ice cream. Oh, you know what's really good?
53:34Skittle ice cream. What? Skittle. You know Skittles? Skittle ice cream. I've never had a Skittle. That would be good. Yeah, Skittle ice cream. Every bite, every lick. would be like tangy. It would be tangy and different flavor. Yeah. That's a good idea. I feel like I would want waffle ice cream. Like ice cream that tastes like the flavor of waffles. Or you know what? How about plantain vanilla ice cream? Plantain vanilla? That sounds greasy. Is it plantain? Let's say you could have the flavor without the grease. Maybe the flavor includes the grease. I would have a bitter honey ice cream. What's that?
54:12Biddle honey. I like that candy. What's biddle? Biddle honey. Spell it? It's an old-fashioned candy. You know that candy I was eating by the side of the bed and all those packages? Oh, how do you spell it? All the wrappers were like on the floor and everything. How do you spell it? B-I-T-T and then O, I think. And then honey. So good. Or like sugar daddy. Bit O Honey Yeah, I had to Google It's a bit B-I-T-T-O-Honey Let me see Remember Sugar Daddy and Sugar Babies? I never had any of these Maybe they shouldn't have that name anymore That would probably be cancelled They'd probably get cancelled right away It's funny, Bit O Honey was started in 1924 By the Schroeder Johnson Company in Chicago.
55:12I wish we could buy that. It was a new kind of candy bar consisting of six pieces wrapped in wax paper and then packaged in a cover wrapper. And the candy consists of almond bits embedded in a honey-flavored taffy, which makes for long-chewing candy. I don't like that. I love it. I feel like I'm chewing forever and stuff like that. Then it was merged into the Ward Candy Company of New York City in 1969, which had, they made O. Henry, Raisinets, and stuff like that. And it was, and then they made a chocolate-favored version called Biddle Chocolate. And then they were acquired by Turson Company in 1981.
55:46And then Turson Company sold Biddle Honey to Nestle in 1984. And in 2013, Nestle sold Biddle Honey to Pearson's Candy Company. And then in 2020, a few months ago, Spangler Candy Company bought it. So it's funny how all the different mergers and stuff that... the the lifespan of a brand goes through so but anyway um so that's that says in the first level of small talk and other ones are do you like to get up early or stay up late blah blah blah so you or no sorry that was in the second one another first one is um what's the best restaurant you've been in describe the last pet you owned what's your favorite holiday blah blah set two where it escalates set two where it escalates describe the last time you went to the zoo or uh do you like to get up early or stay up late or uh what did you do this summer so it's a little bit more it requires more storytelling in set two uh because like oh when's the last time you went to do why'd you go who'd you go with like it's it leads to other questions as opposed to like name a flavor of candy you would invent.
57:04And then set three is what was your high school like? Uh, uh, describe your mother's best friend. How often do you get your hair cut? Uh, so it's a lot more personal. Do you think life left-handed people are more creative than right-handed people? And then I guess that again leads to stories. Like if you're, if you, oh, my brother's left-handed and he does this. And so it leads to more stories. Do you subscribe to any magazines, which at first sounds kind of very small talkish but then you realize oh if this person just respond just subscribes to board magazines and gun magazines that there's a there's stories behind this yeah where it's very revealing um so uh what foreign country would you most like to visit actually let me ask both of you because you both have traveled internationally and jay grew up internationally and rob and you spent like 15 years traveling, living abroad.
57:59What country now that you've never been to would both of you like to visit? I think Robin should go first. Robin has more stories to tell because she's been to more countries than me. I'd say maybe Argentina, somewhere in South America. Puke. or you know actually really where I would like to go is the South Pole oh yeah oh wow is South Pole a country? well it's it's sort of a region yeah it's a continent and I would like to go on a you know an icebreaker and go do exploration stuff that's so brave I just want to go to Japan and eat all the sushi Yeah, I would like to go to that restaurant. That's a great place.
58:54I would like to go to that restaurant featured in the documentary Hero Dreams of Sushi. That looks like a good restaurant. James, you would love Japan too. Yeah, Japan is great. Robin is like, I want to be an explorer. Jay is like, I just want to eat. Yeah, Robin either wants to go to outer space or 10 ,000 feet underwater. I've been all over the land of this world, and I've been diving everywhere. So underwater. So now I want to explore space. Is there such a thing as volcano diving? Can you go wear a suit and go? No, I don't think so. You can get close to it. Yeah, you can. But I don't think you can get there.
59:33Even though when you get closer, you have to be very cautious. You can go over a helicopter and you can go close, which would be fun too. yeah the point of all this again is this is based on some research in the experimental generation of interpersonal closeness done by a bunch of professors they took thousands of subjects and and had them either ask these questions or not and their their point was is that to establish quick intimacy you need to and i'll just read their exact statement again um okay to establish quick intimacy, you need to develop, you need to create sustained, escalating, reciprocal, personalistic self-disclosure.
1:00:21And they come up with a set of questions, whether you're in a romantic situation or a non-romantic situation, they come up with a set of questions that are to be done in order because they involve the escalating. And ultimately you're revealing like very deep things about yourself. Like, Oh, what are you, what are you most scared to reveal to somebody, that might be a potential top escalation. And the beginning escalation might be, oh, why do you like this restaurant? Or, you know, that sort of thing. So if you want the full list of questions, I'll write it down. Maybe I'll put it on my LinkedIn newsletter, which you could find by finding me on LinkedIn at James Altucher.
1:00:56Or your new notepad. Oh yeah. Or we haven't launched it yet, but we're about to launch a project called notepad where you get to keep track of your idealists so more on that in the future meanwhile stay tuned for another upcoming episode where robin and i will find out our intimacy quotient we will take the iq test and i will show you guys what the intimacy quotient test is like so you can determine in your relationships how intimate you guys are when when that when when when we're recording the podcast you will see jay sitting in the corner just crying yeah jay's gonna be sad there's any lonely young women out there who want a good person in their lives jay has gone from homeless beggar i just saw one i mean he didn't even he would just grunt he like grew up with the wolves and i took him and i said you could be an audio engineer young man and he went from audio engineer to super producer of podcasts and it's really been amazing.
1:02:03Thank you. I traded my sense of smell to the sense of hearing. I'm not sure what that means, but yeah. And so ladies out there, write in or tweet that you love the podcast and Jay always checks the Twitter. Yes. Thank you. And once again, if you like what you heard here, please follow this podcast so you don't miss one. Robin, thanks for coming on. Also, tell me if you like Robin because we all want validation of our choices. And see you guys next time. Thanks, you guys. Okay, thanks. Bye. Thank you.
From the publisher
Today, James is joined by Robyn and Jay the Engineer to talk about romantic and business relationships. They share personal stories of moving from friends to being in love and discuss how intimacy works in different kinds of relationships, including those at work and in the community. A key focus of our discussion is the intriguing idea of moving from the 'friend zone' to deeper, more meaningful connections. We delve into the importance of sustained, escalating, reciprocal, and personal self-disclosure in building intimacy. This exploration is anchored by insights from the research paper "The Experimental Generation of Interpersonal Closeness," which sheds light on the patterns essential for developing close relationships. Below is the full list of 36 questions for "closeness-generating", taken from the paper:1. Given the choice of anyone in the world, whom would you want as a dinner guest? 2. Would you like to be famous? In what way? 3. Before making a telephone call, do you ever rehearse what you are going to say? Why? 4. What would constitute a "perfect" day for you? 5. When did you last sing to yourself? To someone else? 6. If you were able to live to the age of 90 and retain either the mind or body of a 30-year-old for the last 60 years of your life, which would you want? 7. Do you have a secret hunch about how you will die? 8. Name three things you and your partner appear to have in common. 9. For what in your life do you feel most grateful? 10. If you could change anything about the way you were raised, what would it be? 11. Take 4 minutes and tell your partner your life story in as much detail as possible. 12. If you could wake up tomorrow having gained any one quality or ability, what would it be? Set II 13. If a crystal ball could tell you the truth about yourself, your life, the future, or anything else, what would you want to know? 14. Is there something that you've dreamed of doing for a long time? Why haven't you done it? 15. What is the greatest accomplishment of your life? 16. What do you value most in a friendship? 17. What is your most treasured memory? 18. What is your most terrible memory? 19. If you knew that in one year you would die suddenly, would you change anything about the way you are now living? Why? 20. What does friendship mean to you? 21. What roles do love and affection play in your life? 22. Alternate sharing something you consider a positive characteristic of your partner. Share a total of 5 items. 23. How close and warm is your family? Do you feel your childhood was happier than most other people's? 24. How do you feel about your relationship with your mother? 25. Make 3 true "we" statements each. For instance 'We are both in this room feeling ... " 26. Complete this sentence: "I wish I had someone with whom I could share ... " 27. If you were going to become a close friend with your partner, please share what would be important for him or her to know. 28. Tell your partner what you like about them; be very honest this time saying things that you might not say to someone you've just met. 29. Share with your partner an embarrassing moment in your life. 30. When did you last cry in front of another person? By yourself? 31. Tell your partner something that you like about them already. 32. What, if anything, is too serious to be joked about? 33. If you were to die this evening with no opportunity to communicate with anyone, what would you most regret not having told someone? Why haven't you told them yet? 34. Your house, containing everything you own, catches fire. After saving your loved ones and pets, you have time to safely make a final dash to save any one item. What would it be? Why? 35. Of all the people in your family, whose death would you find most disturbing? Why? 36. Share a personal problem and ask your partner's advice on how he or she might handle it. Also, ask your partner to reflect...
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