Kent Heckenlively on Catastrophic Disclosure: UFO Whistleblowers, Government Spin, and James’s 85% Rule

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33:37That's ICA. And can you personally go visit them? Yeah, I was actually invited to go down this summer to Mexico City to look at them, as well as the bugosphere. but I had some family obligations. But good old Congressman Eric Burleson, I got to go on that. So we've got pictures of the good old skeptical congressman looking at a big alien hand, and it's pretty funny. And so they think it's real at the universities. Yes, they do. And one of the things I should also mention is that there is a American forensic expert who has gone to Peru and to Mexico City and to look at these. And he is convinced also that these things are real.

34:29So what other explanation other than alien could there be? And by the way, 70 % not like us is a very strange thing. No, 70 % like us, 30 % not like us. Right, so, okay, I mean that actually. So bananas are 70 % like us, 30 % not like us. So there is like, you have to go really far and you're still 70 % like humans because you're organic and you're alive just like a banana is. So most of the essence of being alive is just being 70 % like a human. Like you say, chimpanzees and basically every other mammal is like in the 90 to 99 % category of being like us. And to only be 70 % like us, that means they're really, really different, like a banana.

35:20Everything about this seems bananas, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. It is very strange. And I'm not a geneticist, but when you're talking to a geneticist, and they'll go, well, a fly is like 65 % us. And I'm like, oh, my God. So if these were unknown hominids, I would expect the DNA testing to show them much closer to us. And there are groups of people who got weird hand mutations and it persists. But nothing like this. I mean, we've got some pictures in the book of x-rays of three tridactyl hands. and they've got extra phalanges on it. And it's really weird. Like I say, I've never seen anything out in the wild, but a lot of people have.

36:25And what I try to do is I try to gather all the evidence. I try to let everybody speak for themselves. I don't want to cut anybody off. And so I let them have their say. and then I chime in with my thoughts on it and let the readers make up their mind. Right. So I really wrestle with the David Grush one and all of these credible witnesses, plus the sheer mass of evidence. Like you said, even your friends that you could trust and you believe they've seen a UFO. But here's one issue. And this is like the argument I always use for people who say 9-11 is a conspiracy is that there's almost like a mathematical formula in that so many people have to hold a secret that it's almost mathematically impossible for this many people to hold a secret in order for something to be true.

37:25So like 9-11, you would need thousands of people to keep a secret if that was a true, you know, American-led conspiracy, like a false flag operation or whatever that many people claim. So thousands of people would have to keep a secret, which is just impossible. It's never been, historically, the odds would be like one in a trillion. So how many people would have to have kept a secret about space, the US government has spacecraft that they've reverse engineered. How many people would have to keep that secret over the past 80 years for that to be true? Well, here's a great answer to that, which I don't know if it's true, but it's an interesting answer.

38:05So, I did a lot of interviewing of Dr. Stephen Greer. And so, Greer has over 700 whistleblower accounts of people, he says, who say they worked in the federal government and saw these craft. You know, they may have been service members, they may have been members of the intelligence community. And the story that Greer tells is that in the 90s, as he was investigating this, and he was trying to figure out a framework to get to disclosure, he realized that what he needed to do was send a letter to all the defense and intelligence agencies known as an unless-otherwise directed letter. And so his framing of the issue is that these programs, since they're spending our money, are under congressional oversight.

38:58And if they do not submit to congressional oversight, they are, by definition, unconstitutional. And so the letter he sent out made that argument. And he said, now that I have let you know that this is true, then, or I've made this allegation, you as the federal government need to tell me why I'm wrong. You need to send me a letter directing me that I am mistaken. And if you do not send me that letter, then I am free to gather information from these whistleblowers. And so they never responded to him. So what somebody like Dr. Greer would say is, well, I have over 700 accounts of whistleblowers from the federal government and people won't look at it.

39:56It's a little bit like the Galileo argument that I heard, which is that when Galileo was making his claims that the earth went around the sun and all of these other bodies in the heavens were other stars or planets, he invited the Catholic bishops to his observatory at night so they could peer through his telescope and see the moons of Jupiter, for example. or the curvature of the planet Mars or the craters on the moon. And the Catholic bishops never went there. So the question is, when something sounds crazy to the majority of the people, will the vast majority of people make the effort to investigate something which goes against their belief system?

40:54And so I don't know if that's a great answer, but it seems like a plausible one. What you're saying is there were, in fact, hundreds of people that didn't keep a secret and were whistleblowers to Stephen Greer and that the government basically has refused to acknowledge or even mention anything about it. They just ignore. Their best defense is ignorance. Now, the Catholic bishops is a little bit of a different example because they had nothing to prove. They were relying on the faith of their followers. whereas Galileo actually could scientifically prove something. So in fact, the Catholic bishops did what the government did, which is just ignore it.

41:30And I'm just wondering, of the 700 whistleblowers, did they, I mean, what, it's 80 years of speculation about UFOs. What would have made society believe once and for all that UFOs exist? And has that evidence been presented and poo-pooed in some way by the government. What's the best case now we have that UFOs and even aliens are real? The proven one is interesting. Yeah, and there was another really interesting recent article about a scientist. I know her first name is Beatriz, and I want to say like Villa Rosa. And what she did was she looked at pictures from telescopes prior to Sputnik going up and seeing could there be flashes of light which are not meteors but might be extraterrestrial craft coming.

42:39And according to her, before Sputnik, it seems like there were things that were zipping around in space near Earth, which were not meteors. And I find that very interesting. So unless the government divulges everything that they know, we're probably going to have to rely on these secondary sources like looking at astronomical plates from before Sputnik or maybe these Peruvian mummies. Right. And it's interesting. So how many people in the government do you think, let's just take the U.S. government. How many people in the U.S. government, let's say they do have aliens. how many people do you think have interacted with those bodies or vehicles?

43:27You know, it is, there's a veil through which I cannot see. And, you know, it's kind of like Plato in the cave, right? You know, there's fire, there's figures dancing on the wall, but I don't know how to make sense of it. So I'm doing the best that I can. But one of the things that I have aggressively questioned is people like Congressman Burleson and asking them, do these whistleblowers seem to be genuinely scared that they can't say that much? And it comes back a resounding yes. Well, even Grush said in his testimony that he knows of people who were injured trying to reveal information. Yeah, and the March 2024 Arrow report was really interesting because it addressed that question, but it did it in a way which I feel is dishonest.

44:25They asked the question, oh, could we find specific non-disclosure agreements that mention UFOs? And they go, oh no, we can't do that. But it's sort of like, okay, if you're hiding the biggest secret in the world, do you put that in a document that says, okay, now the biggest secret in the world that you can't reveal is X. No. But what they did do is they say, oh, it is really common in nondisclosure agreements that the government might have you sign if you're working in a secret program that if you reveal too much, you can be prosecuted for treason and spend the rest of your life in jail or be put to death.

45:08I'm going, well, isn't that an admission that it's kind of true that if they have worked in these secret programs, that if they reveal too much, they might be prosecuted? And when I talk to the skeptics and they go, oh yeah, they're scared. I can't tell you if it's true, but they're scared. It's like I go back to my approach, which is if they don't answer your questions, you're kind of free to assume the worst. Yeah, and that's a really good point. I mean, and by the way, it's also a point. I was once talking to a guy who was like an expert on conspiracy theories. And he had written a book basically about what makes a conspiracy theorist.

45:58And he said one thing that makes a conspiracy theorist is at some point, maybe in their childhood or whatever, something happened to them that created a huge distrust of authority. And so now, it's like you're saying, once they got this huge distrust of authority, whether it's from the government or even from a family structure or education, once they got that huge distrust, they basically stopped believing in everything, which is another way of saying they could be believing anything. And because they have no way to know what to trust. And so it's to your point, if the government is already showing distrust on a small level here, anything goes.

46:38You know, one of my favorite authors is Malcolm Gladwell. And he asked this question, how good are human beings at figuring out liars? And, you know, everybody will point to like the first person who knew that, oh, who is that? The Wall Street guy who stole billions from people. Madoff. Robert De Niro played him in the movie. Yeah, yeah, Bernie Madoff. Bernie Madoff, yeah. And so Malcolm Gladwell asked the question, okay, who was the first guy who knew that Madoff was a fraud? And the guy is known. And so Malcolm Gladwell went and interviewed him and found out, yeah, that guy is really good at figuring out liars.

47:23But he's also sleeping with a shotgun underneath his pillow because he thinks the SEC is coming for him. So maybe even our professional, you know, skeptics, you know, have a little bit of a mental problem. And so, you know, it's one of the things that I try to do. And so, especially in this field, I kind of say, you know, I can do a lot of research, but I'm not going to go deeper than, I believe, 85 % of the way. Because, you know, if you keep a good, healthy 15 % of skepticism, you know, that's probably pretty good. So, hey, do I think that aliens are probably real? Yeah, 85%, I'll believe. But 15 % of me is going like, okay, this could be a giant psyop.

48:12Or maybe there's something about the human brain that we don't understand. And, you know, it works really well most of the time. But maybe every 10 ,000 hours, it has a glitch like my phone does. And, you know, it thinks it sees ghosts or it thinks it sees Bigfoot or it thinks it sees aliens. And, you know, otherwise we're working just fine. But every once in a while, some crazy stuff happens.

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50:41I really honestly don't know where I stand on all of it. And your book is kind of an excellent, your book is almost like the state of the art right now. for the past 80 years of these unexplained phenomena. And really, it is legitimately a lot of unexplained phenomena. And we know there's been government investigations and government cover-ups. Your book is really excellent detailing all this. And my main skepticism really is between the time Edison made the light bulb to the time we put a man on the moon was about, I don't know, 100 years. So Homo sapiens have been around. let's say about a half a million years.

51:22So in a half a million years, it's only a hundred years that we've been technologically astute, that we've been technologically sophisticated or sophisticated enough to put a man on the moon. And other civilization, the universe is 14 billion years old. So that means other civilizations, it would be, again, almost statistically impossible if they were similar to us in age. I mean, And some civilizations could be technologically astute for a billion years, or even a million years would dwarf us. We're only technologically savvy for a hundred years. Maybe in a thousand years, we're gonna be transforming ourselves into particles of light and flying through black holes and who knows what the technology is gonna bring.

52:06So my main skepticism is, given that any other society that's somehow reaching us, they're probably so much older than us technologically just by the statistics, that they probably aren't using spaceships, for instance. Like they probably don't need to be in a ship to get to us. They don't need to be in technology that's similar to Earth technology because there are a billion years more sophisticated than us. Unless there's some plateau of technology that all societies reach around the universe and don't really go beyond that, it seems unlikely that they'd be traveling to us in vehicles that look like the vehicles we use now.

52:44Yeah, and so, you know, I want to go back to a point you talked about going crazy and going down the rabbit hole. And this is something I'm always asking myself, like, okay, how good are my opinions? And one of the things that I feel like was most compelling in that most recent congressional hearing was the video that Congressman Burleson released of the UFO off the coast of Yemen. And, you know, it's really interesting because you kind of ask yourself like, okay, how many crazy things would I have to believe to still be a skeptic? And so, you know, crazy thing number one, a drone picked up an unidentified flying object and locked onto it.

53:29Okay, so that's one crazy thing. It's something that it sees that we can see on the video. Number two, another drone locks onto it and fires the Hellfire missile at it. Okay, so I've got two drones which are locked onto the same object. The Hellfire missile is now locked onto it. So I've got three different sensors which are seeing this craft. And then as the Hellfire missile comes close, it hits it. And the Hellfire missile doesn't explode, but it breaks up. And it's weird because the pieces of it seem to orbit around whatever it was. Now, did it break up the craft? Was it the missile that broke up?

54:20I don't know. But to think that, all right, three different sensors, very technologically advanced, in our own eyes watching it, see something that shouldn't exist. Yeah, no, I mean, that's why this is such a fascinating subject. Like, clearly, there are things not being explained to us. Maybe they're, you know, it's hard to believe that they're Earth technology because, like, I've seen some of these videos, and, like, you see these, whether they're drones or UFOs or whatever, they're going, like, 20 times faster than the speed of sound, if you believe some of these, you know, pilot recollections and videos.

55:01and assuming that those videos are real videos, there's something going on. But then I'm internally in conflict because of what I just said about, well, are there civilizations billions of years older than us potentially that are still using drones as opposed to using some advanced computer involving really advanced quantum mechanics where they're entangling their particles with us and blah, blah, blah, you know, and that's how they're traveling through space and time and whatever. Like, again, I'm getting into science fiction, but we don't know because every civilization that comes to us must be so far advanced.

55:45I have a hard time believing they would use technology similar to the technology we could think of. And that's really my main skepticism. Although I admit there's unexplained phenomena out there. Yeah, well, one of the things that I thought was really interesting in David Fravor's testimony about the Tic Tacs off the coast of California that were around the USS Nimitz is he mentioned that at one point, this Tic Tac craft was 80 ,000 feet in altitude. And then within seconds, it was literally above the surface, a few feet above the surface of the ocean. And I'd heard somebody say, the amount of energy that it would take to do that is equal to the United States' annual energy output.

56:34And I thought to myself, wow, that must be some amazing technology. So, and you know, to your point about what would it look like if an advanced civilization came to us? Well, one of the things I talk about in the book is, you know, what it was like when the Europeans came to the Americas, you know, and the likelihood that both groups could misidentify the situation. You know, so to the Aztecs who are seeing these men appear in ships with sails, you know, they're thinking they're returning gods or something. You know, that's their reality. They see gods coming there. What did the men on the ships feel like?

57:19They're saying to themselves, oh my God, I can't believe I survived that crossing. I feel I'm nearly dead. Well, those are two pretty different things. So those were men in those ships. And that's the question that I ask throughout this, which is, if these things are real, there's a whole story behind them. And I don't know what that is. Is it that they're just a couple hundred years more advanced than us? I mean, if you think, you know, I'm talking to you on a cell phone. Let's just go back a thousand years. If, you know, an early Christian on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem came across a cell phone, what would he think?

58:07I don't know. Would it be magic to him? Yeah. We would both be human beings. we'd both eat and drink and want to get married and have kids or whatever, pray to God. But we'd appear completely different to each other. Yeah, no, that's a good point. And to your point also, maybe they are in just a couple hundred years more advanced than us. Like I'm sort of making it up that that would be statistically impossible, but maybe that's the only thing that's possible. Maybe there are other civilizations that are billions of years more advanced and we can't see them or have anything to do with them, but the ones we can see are the ones that also come here that are just a couple hundred years more advanced than us.

58:51And one of the things that I differ with a lot of the UFO people with is they are convinced that these UFOs are here to help us. And I'm like, okay, maybe they're here to help us, but gosh, they really seem interested in our nuclear arsenal. And the UFO people are like, like, well, they don't want us to destroy ourselves. And I'm like, yeah, maybe that's true. Or maybe they're kind of scared of us. Maybe if they had some bad intentions, we could put up a pretty good fight. And maybe they don't want us to put up a pretty good fight. I don't know, because so many of the UFO people are saying this whole field is being manipulated to scare people so that we spend trillions of dollars giving it to our defense department and our military contractors to protect us against something that is not a threat.

59:46And I don't know what's true. It's kind of like why I say on all these questions, I feel like I'm 85-15. Yeah, I don't think the aliens are here to eat us, but might they have some practices that we would object to? Yeah, they might. So interesting. Yeah, because you mentioned how, you talk about the start of all this was this Trinity crash in 1945, I guess it was. And how that kind of kickstarted a lot of these government investigations and a lot of sightings, and it was all related to us potentially detonating the first nuclear bomb. And my first question is, is detonating a nuclear bomb sufficient enough to raise the ire of aliens?

1:00:31Is that what they consider a technological threshold that we crossed. Yeah, and you know, it's interesting because, you know, all of this is like magic and science fiction because we don't know if it's real, right? But, you know, when I talk to these UFO experts and I ask that very question, I'm like, okay, you know, one little bomb, you know, yeah, it's nuclear. And they say, oh no, you don't understand. There's quantum entanglement and, you know, the way these aliens are getting here is, they've got these quantum wormholes and the bombs affect the quantum wormholes. I'm like, okay, really? You might be talking about witch's spells for all I know, right?

1:01:12But at least if it's an answer. Yeah. And like, okay, well, maybe it's like interstellar and you need wormholes to go from one place to another and maybe nuclear bombs. disturb those? I don't know. But give me a story that makes sense, and then I'll try to figure out if it's true. Yeah, no, it's so interesting. I mean, basically, your book and talking to you has raised more questions for me that I can't really come to grips with. I can't really sit back and just rely on my skepticism and my decades-long opinions on this. And that's why it's such a great read. You really kind of present the story of what's happened in this entire space for the past 80 years.

1:02:03And there's a lot of unanswered questions that are real unanswered questions. We can't just dismiss them. They're completely unanswered. It's like my publisher had said early on in this book. He said, you're completely insane. Get yourself committed. Oh, no, I'm sorry. What did he say? What he said, which I thought was great is he goes, you know, Kent, every side of this opinion sounds absurd. You know? Yeah. It's absurd to believe that all these people are lying. It's also absurd to believe that, you know, aliens are zipping around our atmosphere. I'm like, yeah, I know. That's kind of what makes it fun.

1:02:43Yeah. Well, look, people could read the book and decide for themselves. I'm sure this is going to be a massive bestseller, Kent Heckin-Lively. Is that how you say your last name? Heckin-Lively? Yep. Full of heckin twice as lively. And the book is Catastrophic Disclosure, The Deep State, Aliens, and the Truth. Let me ask you a question. I've literally been asking people since I was 11 years old. If a spacecraft, if an alien spacecraft landed on the earth and you saw it and it came out to you, you're by yourself. It came out to you and you could see they look like humans and whatever. They say, Kent, we came here for you.

1:03:23We want to take you on a hundred thousand year journey around the universe. We're going to show you everything. The only thing is you have to leave with us right now. You can't say goodbye to anybody. You can't go back to your family. You have to leave right now. We're taking off and it's going to be, we'll keep you alive. It's going to be great. It's a hundred thousand year journey. Would you go? when i came back in a hundred thousand years my wife would still kill me so no all right good answer safe answer you can tell me the real answer after the podcast is over thank you so much ken i really appreciate it again the title is catastrophic disclosure the deep state aliens and the truth by Kent Heckin-Lively.

1:04:00Thanks so much, James.

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