King's Gambit - A Chess Prodigy's Journey Back to 2200 | "The Chess Angle Podcast" with Neal Bellon

0:00Look, as a manager of people, as an employer, as an entrepreneur, and as even an investor in startups, I can tell you the most important thing for your business is the quality of the quality of people. you hire. The best part is that great candidates are already on LinkedIn. Employees hired through LinkedIn are 30 % more likely to stick around for at least a year compared to those hired through the leading competitor. And I will tell you that the great thing about LinkedIn is that you're not just looking at random people. You're able to see the people who your friends and trusted peers and colleagues who they trust and who they've hired in the past and who they recommend.

0:42And hiring doesn't have to be complicated. Realistically, when you have a business to run, you don't want to spend hours on hiring. You want to hire the right person as quickly as possible. That's why LinkedIn Jobs AI Assistant suggests immediately 25 great big candidates daily so you can invite them to apply and keep things moving. Hire right the first time. Post your job for free at linkedin.com slash altature. then promote it to use LinkedIn Jobs' new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find the top candidates. That's linkedin.com slash Altachirk. Post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.

1:24Everybody needs a quest. And I've been on a quest. I've been on many quests in my life and some have worked out for me and some haven't. but no matter whether you get to the goal of your quest, like for instance, King Arthur's Knights were on a quest for the Holy Grail. I don't think they ever found the Holy Grail, but the quest itself is filled with adventures. And I think I'm gonna do a podcast just about the notion of a quest. The word quest is of course in the word question. And you have a question for yourself like, oh, can I achieve a certain thing? What are the steps along the way of achieving that thing?

2:02and what kind of person do I need to become to achieve the goal? What are all the different ways I need to improve myself? What are the paths I need to take? So I've been on a quest. Many of you know what that quest is. And it has changed my life in so many ways so far. And I'm nowhere near the end of that quest. At least it doesn't seem that way. And that's sometimes frustrating. But part of going on such a journey is dealing with failure and frustration. But anyway, I want to know someone else's podcast, The Chess Angle. and he did a very good job interviewing me, and we decided to present it on this podcast.

2:38Some new things I'm figuring out all along the way on this journey, on this quest, and here it is.

2:48This isn't your average business podcast, and he's not your average host. This is the James Altucher Show.

3:09Welcome to the Chess Angle. This is not your typical chess podcast. If you're an amateur or club level player, the Chess Angle is for you. Our content is aimed at busy adults who are serious about the game but have limited study time. Featured guests include both amateur and titled players alike. And now, here's your host, director of the Long Island Chess Club, Neil Bellon.

3:41Welcome everyone to season five. It's great to be back. Some quick production notes. First, on our YouTube channel, I'm looking into posting video versions of our interview episodes rather than just having audio with a still image. That's in beta, so to speak, but it is something I'm working on. Also, I'm going to be experimenting with chapter markers as part of the show notes. That's also in beta, but I'm looking into adding that feature as a permanent fixture. I'll talk more about this and some other ideas when I do my first solo episode of the season. My guest this week to kick off season five, needs no introduction, and is a popular figure in both the chess and business worlds.

4:28I am, of course, referring to James Altucher. James is a national chess master, successful podcaster, an entrepreneur, and a best-selling author. His podcast, The James Altucher Show, which is part of my own weekly podcast rotation, is a top show that receives millions of downloads on a regular basis. He is the author of 18 books, including The Power of No and Choose Yourself, which were Wall Street Journal bestsellers. I was honored to speak with James recently, and the bulk of our conversation was about adult improvement, especially as we get older, and James's quest to get back to a reading of 2200.

5:11That's coming up right now.

5:16so james good to see you really appreciate you coming on the podcast thank you so much for having me on the podcast i really appreciate it definitely so i'm going to jump right in maybe you could tell us a little bit about your current tournaments like what kind of events you're playing in sure so let me just start off by saying just real quickly i started playing in tournaments when i was 17 years old so kind of late to the game and then of course i stopped in college because girls. And then I picked it up again, kind of in between jobs later on. And when I finally hit the age of about, I guess, 28, I hit master level, like 2200 strength.

6:00And I played in a few tournaments after that. I got up to about 2249, I think was my peak. And then I remember two tournaments specifically gave me heartache. I was having a good run. This is back in 1997. I was having a really good run of not losing against people my level, like 2200 or so. And then I had two games in a row. One where I played this little kid. I don't know if he was like 10 years old, 11 years old. And he was beating me. and there was this other tiny little kid who couldn't see the board. He was about six or seven years old. I don't know. He couldn't see the board, so he kept jumping up to see the board.

6:42And then after the game was over, which I had lost, this other little kid who was like six or seven years old was like showing us all these moves that we both should have done. And that was Sicaro. And I figured, oh, my gosh, these kids are getting better than ever. What's going on here? And then in the next tournament I played in was a local tournament at the Manhattan Chess Club. And I lost the game. And the girl who won the game told me, maybe on move nine, you shouldn't have moved Bishop B4. And this was the 13-year-old Irina Crush. And so I figured, you know what? I'm done. I'm retired. I had fallen from 2249 to a little above 2200.

7:32And I decided, you know what? Being above 2200 is kind of important for my career just because of the culture. I was whatever, 27 years old, 28 years old. It was early on in my career. And it was 25 years ago or a little longer, 26 years ago now. and it does have some cultural significance being a master. I didn't realize you take the master title with you once you get it. No matter what your rating is, you're still like a national master. So I didn't want to lose that title. So I stopped playing. And it's only in the past year and a half, almost coming on two years now that I decided, hey, I'm going to make a quest of this, which is everybody says I can't, but can someone in their 50s now get back to where they were before?

8:23And so many people kept telling me, no, no, it's impossible. Your brain's older. These kids are geniuses. They're computers now. And their study techniques are different, blah, blah, blah. And of course, when someone tells you you can't, you feel like, oh, I really should. And chess is always something I loved. And I figured, you know what? Why not pursue my childhood love now as an adult, as a seasoned adult and I'll tell you Neil it is difficult I've done a lot of difficult things in my life for better or for worse this is like difficult it is really hard I don't know if I could do it but I'm still trying yeah and the players just seem so much stronger even defensively as well like do you find that because everything is like you know these young kids with tactics but I'm finding even on the other end of the board even defensively and positionally they're a lot stronger because traditionally the kids, it was always like tactics, tactics, tactics, attack, but it seems like they can also play solid and defend as well.

9:25Do you find that? Do they play solidly? I mean, there's, I've done so much research on all of this. Like what actually does change in the brain between the ages of 27 and 55, which is what I am now. I've explored issues of memory, calculation, even my strategic sense and how the brain works with strategy versus calculation. But to answer your question, I think the kids are better defenders now than they were then. First off, there weren't that many kids in tournaments then. Now you go to a tournament, it's 70 % kids. Back then it was maybe 80 % adults, 20 % kids. But leaving that aside, I think the younger kids are just, they're better tactically.

10:08They have better memories. they're better at the opening so sometimes I get crushed in the openings which is never used to happen to me before openings is studied in a much different way now than it was what in the 90s and you know there's other aspects too I don't think they're that great at strategic play and I don't think they're that great at end games I mean of course there's exceptions I'm not making a I'm making a huge generalization but I think there are some aspects of the game where I've improved in ways that I don't see the kids really developing skills because they don't have to, because their calculation is so great and their opening knowledge is so great.

10:47And I do think they have a better basic positional sense than when I was starting out. Maybe not, well, let's say the 2200s are the equivalent of 2400 tactically and 2000 positionally from when I was playing. and the tactics count for more, for better or for worse. Now, what is your study regimen look like? In other words, you're trying to get back to 2200 now. What does that look like for you as far as studying? Are you just mostly playing? Are you studying and doing both? Are you studying anything specific? I'm studying and playing. I think you need to study and play. Let's say you're trying to get better at, I don't know, archery.

11:25You can't just read a bunch of books about archery and suddenly hit the target the first time you go to an archery range. You have to play, you have to analyze your games, you have to study the classics, you have to study openings, you have to study tactics, you have to study endgames. And, you know, I've changed my regimen quite a bit in the past year and a half, but I would say like right now today, it's an hour of tactics a day, maybe an hour of looking at classical games. and then I'll play six five plus three blitz games. So five plus three is five minutes plus three second increment after each move.

12:01I'll analyze those, which I'll then later go over with a coach. So I work with Avatik Gregorian. You can find him at chessmood.com. I've worked with many coaches over the years. All of them have been great. I've never worked with a bad coach. And just lately I've been working with Avatik and it's going very well. And that's about it. You know, a combination of classic study, positional study, tactics, end games. And now I don't study as much openings, but about six months ago, I was studying like 80 % openings just because I was switching my repertoire. Right. And what does that look like now?

12:35Like, do you have a set opening repertoire? Like, I'm just going to stick with these or are you mixing that up a little bit? So when I hit 2200 back in 1997, I only played D4 and I had a very specific repertoire. I had one line for, you know, the Nimzo, for the King's Indian, for the Bononi. And then I used to play the King's Indian against Ponda Queen 4 and the Modern Defense against Ponda King 4. And that was it. And I only studied those from the ages of 17 to whenever it is I stopped, 27 or 28 years old. But then when I restarted, I decided I'm going to switch everything because right away I I saw that the openings were completely different than when I was like King's Indian.

13:20I had one plan, which is get into a lock center, then do F5, F4, G5, G4, sack on H3 with my bishop and checkmate. That was my only plan. And, you know, with D4, let's say I played a Queen's Gambit. My only plan was like to do Knight G2. I think this is now called the Bad Vinic plan, but Knight G2, Knight G3, F3, E4, maybe e5 f4 f5 check sack something and checkmate these were like my only plans and now i'm playing pawn to king for and i switched also my my responses to black and it's a completely different game it is like comparing apples and oranges it's like i'm playing i went from playing checkers to playing chess or maybe that's not a fair comparison because d4 is not so it's like switching from checkers to backgammon it's like i'm playing a completely different game um because the positions are much wilder.

14:13They're much more open. There's different sorts of plans. So I've had to expand not only my repertoire of openings, but my repertoire of plans that I understood. There was very few plans I had to understand when I was younger playing D4. And also that's just the nature of how openings are studied now too, that everybody studies every line. So I remember I was still, when I first started playing again after this 25 year break, I was still playing the Kings Indian. And then Gawain Jones would come out with a new course on a Friday on Chessable about the Kings Indian. And on Saturday, you know, let's say it's the National Open in Las Vegas, suddenly everybody's playing the newest lines that came out the day before.

14:54So these younger people, I'll say, instead of kids, they have phenomenal memories. They absorb all the lines they need to know. And I feel like I used to be able to do that when I was younger, but I didn't even need to do it that much. People didn't really study the openings as detailed as they do now. Like when I was younger, I had a book by Geller called The King's Indian Defense. That was my studying of The King's Indian. Now there's chessboard courses, there's the computer lines, there's 6 ,000 games played a day in your obscure 20-move sideline variation that you thought you were the only one who knew it.

15:34But not only does everyone know it, everyone's also studied your games playing it. So like studying the openings is a different beast, which has its pros and cons, which we can get into. And so I figure, where am I going to get my edge? Because again, it used to be if you had a good position, yes, sometimes people could defend, but most of the time people just rolled over and died. And I don't want to say that's all the time, but on my way up from like 1800 to 2000 to 2200 that's what my experience like i i won the under 2000 in the world open i won the under 2200 in the world open i had a pretty smooth ride up and now just it's it's just difficult like you could play a 1500 rated kid who will have spurts of playing like a 2200 because they'll either know the opening really well or you get into some tactical situation they've studied a million times on Puzzle Rush, or I figured I could have my edge, is doing something I've never done before, which is studying end games and positional stuff.

16:39Just as an example, when I was younger, even in my 20s, I never studied any positional stuff at all. I didn't know what a space advantage meant. I was over 2200. I didn't know what a weak square was or how to play against a weak square. I didn't need to. Maybe that's why I stopped at 2250. I don't know. But now this is like a huge area of study for me is studying these more positional aspects, studying classical games, which I never really did before, and really trying to expand my, you know, let's call it chess wisdom. I feel younger people don't have that as much because they have that raw, let's call it athleticism of the tactics and the opening knowledge.

17:35Look, as a manager of people, as an employer, as an entrepreneur, and as even an investor in startups, I can tell you the most important thing for your business is the quality of the people you hire. The best part is that great candidates are already on LinkedIn. Employees hired through LinkedIn are 30 % more likely to stick around for at least a year compared to those hired through the leading competitor. And I will tell you that the great thing about LinkedIn is that you're not just looking at random people. You're able to see the people who your friends and trusted peers and colleagues, who they trust and who they've hired in the past and who they recommend.

18:18And hiring doesn't have to be complicated. Realistically, when you have a business to run, you don't want to spend hours on hiring. You want to hire the right person as quickly as possible. That's why LinkedIn Jobs AI Assistant suggests immediately 25 great fit candidates daily so you can invite them to apply and keep things moving. Hire right the first time. Post your job for free at linkedin.com slash altature, then promote it to use LinkedIn Jobs new AI Assistant, making it easier and faster to find the top candidates. That's linkedin.com slash altature. post your job for free terms and conditions apply yeah i want to explore two areas i want to talk about your studying with your coaches your current coach and i know you had studied with jesse cry and then i want to get into some ideas about chess improvement like over the age of 50 right because you said you're 55 is that right yeah all right i'm 51 so we're old we're quote unquote old.

19:18But I want to, I want to mention, I am the, the Georgia over 50 champion right now. And when I was a kid, I was the New Jersey junior champion. So I'm proud that I've bookended. I wish I had played in the middle 25 years, but unfortunately it is what it is. So I feel like among my cohort, you know, people over 50, I'm doing well, but when I'm in a, an intense tournament situation like the chicago open national open world open it's it's really hard it's a different experience for me than when i was younger right now let me hold on a second let me sort of interject with this before we get into the other things when you play in these major tournaments with classical time controls do you play in every game or do you take buys because there's some thought that you know once you get to a certain age because of the endurance that you should take some strategic buys to give yourself a rest.

20:13Do you do that or do you play every game? I play every game because if I'm going to travel someplace, spend money on a hotel and all that kind of stuff, I'm playing every game. You know why? Because I'm not there to win that tournament, although that would be nice. I'm not there to win every game, although that would be nice. But I do want to learn from every game. And if I don't play the game, I'm not going to learn. So if I am going to a nine-round tournament, the Chicago Open, I'm playing a bunch of 2200s and sometimes I'll play GM, sometimes I'll play lower rated. I want to learn from every single game.

20:53Otherwise, I'm wasting my money there. But do you think it would be, I'm just curious, not to, I don't want to sound like I'm pushing back on this. I'm just curious. I understand that point. Do you think your results would be better if you did take some buys though? Because that's something that I feel for myself. If I were to do that, I think I would do better. But do you think it would be the same and that you would just be wasting around? Or do you think it might actually help you in the games you do play? It's a really good question. I don't know. I mean, I do know this is that my stamina does seem to wear out.

21:26Like when you're playing, for some reason, my games tend to be like, I'm usually like the last one in the playing hall, even if there's like 500 people there. So if you're playing, if it's 11 p.m. at night and you're on the 10th hour of play that day, my stamina is not gonna be as strong as my opponent's. But I'm also trying to learn how to have more stamina or how to play well even when my stamina's down. So those are all learning points as well that hopefully I can increase my stamina by putting myself in those difficult. You only learn when you put yourself in a difficult situation. So yes, those are difficult situations.

22:05but I'm trying to learn. And this is different also about my chess learning now. It used to be, did I learn the openings? Did I study tactics? Now it's, did I get good sleep? Is my diet good so I have the stamina? Did I eat properly right before the game or two hours before the game so I'm not digesting while playing? Did I exercise enough to increase stamina? So all these things now are on my mind where I could have cared less when I was younger. I didn't even think about all these things I didn't even think about from end games to diet to sleep. You know, I now have to think about, like, Neil, let me ask you this.

22:46Have you ever played in like, so I play in some locally, I'll play in like, you know, rapid, you know, like 30 minute tournaments. And I'll run out of time without even looking at the clock. Like I'll remember, oh, I looked at the clock when I had six minutes left. I'm fine. Then the next thing I know, my opponent flags me. it's like an old man move well those game 30s yeah because those game 30s are dual rated but i tried those many years ago and like i got crushed those ratings i don't know i'm not a fan of those dual rated i think that's one of the best ways for people to like actually lower their rating i mean what do you do you play a lot of those uh they call what do they call those action i i play i do play a lot of those i do play a lot of those and so you know it's one thing losing on time in a 30 minute which is like you say it's both classical and rapid rated but it's another thing where the last six minutes of play, I was just so focused on what move I was making.

23:38I didn't even look at the clock. So that's a skill is time management. I never had to think about before because I was always just moving fast like any other young person. And now I'm losing on time. If I don't regularly look at the clock, like I have to look at the clock and I have to calculate, oh, this game is going to probably go another 15 moves. I've got three minutes. So I need to basically spend no more than 10 to 15 seconds on average per move. I have to actually think about these things. And I never had to think about that before. I mean, do you like those game 30s? Like when you join it, you're like, yeah, cool game 30.

24:12Or do you just do it? Or because some people actually prefer that they like that. Some people like myself, I'm just curious, like, do you enjoy those game 30s? I do. But here's my general thinking. And the one thing I might regret is that I didn't stick to playing online a little bit more. And I went straight into over the board tournaments in this sort of comeback journey, but it's all correlated, right? You're not going to be 1600 at 30 minute and 2000 at classical. You're going to be 1600 in both, or you're going to be 2000 in both your lead chess, your chess.com, your over the board classical, your over the board rapid.

24:49They're all going to be roughly the same within a hundred points of each other. So if you better at any one of those, maybe Bullet is the one exception. If you get better at Blitz, you're going to get better at Classical and vice versa. I mean, when I was hitting 2250 in 1997, it meant my performance ratings were over 2300 and I was beating 2300s at Blitz all of a sudden. So I enjoy it all except Bullet, you know, sometimes you get carpal tunnel syndrome if I play that. So I try not to play that. And I think there's value in all from Blitz on up. And by blitz, I mean, five plus three from blitz on up.

25:26I think there's value. There's learning, there's educational value in everything, you know, and, and classical, you're thinking of so many ideas and so many plans, you know, it's so great to study those deeply. Whereas blitz, I'll just study, you know, the opening and, and what plan did I come up with and what might've been a better plan? And I'll go over them with every blitz game I play. I go over with my coach and of course every over the board game. Okay. Okay. So speaking of you, coach, I want to go back to the original topics I mentioned. You had studied, correct me if I'm wrong, you studied with GM Jesse Cry for a while, correct?

26:00And can you tell us, yeah, tell us a little bit about that. So when I was like 18 or 19, I played in the U.S. Junior Open and the young Jesse Cry was also playing and he was about 2300. I beat him in round one or round two. I still remember the game. I had like sacked my queen. And I remember thinking, this guy is a really nice, polite, good person. Like, here I had this great attack, sack the queen, won. First thing he does is he, like, you know, talks to the people playing all around us. Like, oh, my gosh, did you see what this guy just did? Like, he was bragging about my move to other players.

26:39I thought that was a really good sportsmanship way to play. And we had been Facebook friends, you know, all along. You know, obviously Facebook wasn't made then, but, you know, in the past 15 years, we've been Facebook friends. So at one point I saw him, you know, online with Twitch. I, we played a little bit and then I asked him to give me lessons. He was very good. He has a very classical approach. It's very much focused on positional play. And he really likes to go over the class. We could spend weeks going over one classical game that I play, which is good. like that's a certain kind of studying and we go really deep into studying a classical game but i really needed to get up to speed in you know make sure my openings didn't have major holes and make sure i understood enough of the plans in a new opening so i needed kind of like quantity almost of course quality but i really needed quantity and with avatik regorian i play let's say six blitz games a day.