Michelin Stars, Tragedy, and the Discipline to Be Great | Chef Curtis Duffy

27:46And for me, that is a red flag for me because I want someone to have the confidence to look me in the eyes, shake my hand, and say hello. And what does it mean though? They don't say hello to... They just come in and talk to the HR person or whoever? Who are they not saying hello to?

28:06Everybody. Their peers, everybody that's beside them. They're just very standoffish. To me, that's... I don't know. For me, that's a red flag. That's a weird thing for me. Yeah. And now even reeling it back, when you were in junior high school, you're like this metal kid who suddenly gets into cooking. It's kind of like an odd combination. Or not, I don't even know. But I imagine to end up eventually working 90 hours a week for people who may or may not treat you horribly at first, what do you think got you the obsession? Let me ask, do you agree with the idea that people who are obsessed are going to generally outperform the people who are not obsessed?

28:55100%. 100%. Because you clearly had an obsession. Yeah, you have to be so obsessed that you're willing to die for it. Like, 100%, absolutely, yeah. You have to, because I think to be great with anything in life, I don't care what it is, it doesn't have to be cooking, you have to be so obsessed with it. You have to put everything into it for some amount of time, for some amount of time. I'm not saying your entire life has to be that, but if you want to get somewhere you have to be completely obsessed with it in a good way. Yeah, I mean, in a good way, although even in a good way, there are negatives, right?

29:37You say in the book, like you have to be ready. Well, let me ask you it this way. My daughter is going out with a chef. He's a young chef. He's like a sous chef at a good restaurant in New York City. What should I warn her? You know, she's got to be warned that, you know, if this is going to be his career and he wants to make something great with his career and his life, then there's going to be moments in their relationship where he's just going to be not there. And the idea of being able to support him on that, it takes a special woman. It takes a special person to be able to be okay with it.

30:19It takes a very independent woman to be with a chef who is working the amount of hours that they're working. And does a chef bring the work at home in the sense that it's still on their mind? Yeah. For me, it's not a light switch. It's the lifestyle, really. It's not a light switch. which it's hard to leave work and just click the switch and turn it back on when you get to work. Especially if you're in a position where you're an owner, if you're owning a restaurant, or you now, as a restaurateur, we have multiple places. It's always going to be part of your life. And so what was the moment you sort of realized, if there was a single moment, what was the moment you sort of realized, oh, this is special.

31:10I want to be better at this than everyone else. and it could be like when you're in set like what made you start doing the deep dive on this i would say um when i was in culinary school i had the opportunity to come to chicago and do a stage at charlie trotter's and that's where i knew i wanted to be i knew i wanted to be in chicago and i wanted to work for the best and when i left there and i got back to ohio i I think that is when it really clicked with me that not only do I want to do this for like really do this, but I want to do it at the highest possible level that I could do. And that's when the whole like really creative process started for me.

31:58When I started spending the hours after the restaurant was closed and everybody was gone, I was still there until wee hours in the morning just being able to create and make things with no interruptions at all. And that was probably one of my, some of my favorite times as a younger cook. And what does that mean, creativity? Like, were you trying different spices and seeing if it tasted good? Or like, what does creativity mean here? Yeah, I mean, it could be anything, right? It's taking ingredients and making different things with them. I would talk a lot about this smoked cherry ice cream. I think it's in the book.

32:41That was one of those moments where it was, there's cherries, there's all these things that are at your fingertips. And when there's no one else is around to interrupt or have a conversation or what are you doing? How are you doing that? You get into this moment of just, let me see what I can make. And then your brain just starts, for me, it just started going in a hundred directions. And every night I would make something new, every new. And back then it was ice creams. I was fascinated with doing different flavors of ice cream. I didn't just want the normal vanilla, chocolate, strawberry, yada, yada, yada.

33:17I wanted to be like completely different. And some of them worked and some of them actually were garbage. But that's the creative process. Yeah, you experiment. Yeah, absolutely. you know, somewhere hits and then you throw the rest away and whatever. And so that like, so I see that as pursuing creativity. What are the other aspects that you had to improve to be Michelin level, James Beard level that other great chefs who aren't that level don't have these skills? Well, I think a lot of it is, is fundamental cooking, right? It's, it's understanding the fundamentals of the cooking process. And without the fundamentals, I don't think you can build anything great off of it.

34:02If you don't have a solid base, how can you build high? And I refer to a lot of the architect world about that. Every major structure that's built, there's a solid base underground that we don't see. And that solid base for us comes from culinary school or working with a great chef and understanding those fundamentals and honing those fundamentals and honing the skill and honing every aspect about it, about the consistency of it, making sure that every single time it's done the same way. And if not, making sure it's done better than it was before. Yeah, so I'm trying to understand what's a fundamental of cooking?

34:42Is it that consistency? Or what is a fundamental of cooking? Well, I mean, a fundamental cooking would be grilling something, sautéing something, poaching eggs, braising a piece of meat. All of those things are very fundamental. Those are things that a chef should be able to do with great understanding. It's that great understanding that I don't understand. Like, okay, poaching an egg, I feel like everyone knows how to do that, but what are they missing? Well, do they? I mean, if you ask one of my cooks to hard boil an egg, you would get 10 different hard-boiled eggs. There's one way, well, there's not one way of doing it, but can you do it today, tomorrow, next week, three months from now, the same way as you did 15 years ago?

35:33Is it better than it was 15 years ago? It should be. Those are those moments of honing the fundamentals. What are the differences in quality in hard-boiled eggs? I feel like, okay, you just put the egg in boiling water until it's hard-boiled. well some would think that but for me there's there obviously there's a science there's been tests done of you know how the how easy does it remove from the shell is the egg yolk cooked all the way through does it start to turn green is there still a little runniness in the middle like it's all about timing and understanding the time and you know it's not all boiled the whole time Sometimes people rest it in just the boiling water.

36:17There's all these tricks and all these things. But as a chef, you figure out what works for you. And then you really start to hone it in. For me, it's a 13-minute egg. If I'm boiling eggs, hard-boiled eggs, I'm bringing the water to a boil. I'm slowly dropping in room temperature eggs. They're not coming straight from the refrigerator. They're slowly dropped in with a spoon one by one. and then when that comes back to a boil, I'm boiling that for eight minutes. I turn it off and then it sits in that water for another five. Then it gets drained and then it gets chilled immediately. And the shell comes off beautifully.

36:54The eggs are cooked beautifully. That's my hard-boiled egg.

37:13In the science of learning, what you just described about making a hard-boiled egg is called a chunk. And experts in their field, the best in their field, have an enormous knowledge of these different chunks. Is it in the thousands or the tens of thousands? How many chunks of information like that you know? For sure. I mean, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I would have to think thousands and thousands of chunks, for sure. And all of those are gathered through the 35 years that I've been in the business. And sometimes the beautiful thing about it is you forget about all those things. And then one day, you're cooking, I don't know, a certain piece of fish that you haven't cooked in a very long time.

37:58And it brings you back to 25 years ago when you first learned how to cook that or see that for the first time. I mean, it brings back these nostalgic memories, which are so fascinating and very memorable because it could bring you back to a positive time or a really bad time too. When you overcooked the hell out of it and it ruined it and the chef yelled at you or whatever, or you put it in the pan and the chef said it was like, that was the best looking piece of fish you cooked all night. All those moments. And like when you're cooking for your family at home, do you cook differently than when you're in the restaurant?

38:40Yes and no. I mean, I do things properly at home. I'm just not as, I'm trying not to be like I am in the restaurant. But if I'm cooking a piece of chicken, I'm going to make sure that the skin is put down first and that it's crispy and that I'm going through the process of, because that's just, it's a lifestyle. It's not like you turn it off or on, like I said earlier. It's like, You cook a piece of chicken one way and you cook it right. That's it. You cook the right way. You don't do it right half the time. And then just because you're at home, you just kind of hack your way through it. No, it's got to be done the right way.

39:20What do you think is the difference between skill and talent? Is there such a thing as talent? I don't know. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, there's talent. I can imagine that maybe someone's palate gives them talent. Sure. They have extra sensitivity. I don't know. Their ability to learn things, their ability to pick up different flavors, of course, that's a talent. The ability to smell things differently. Taste buds, of course, are heightened. Do you develop that? Do you think you had heightened taste buds as a seventh grader? No, but as you get... That's another great question because I've often had problems with food critics who are incredibly young because I don't feel like their palate has developed enough.

40:09I don't think they have enough tasting experience. I don't think they've had enough travel experience to negate that you're criticizing somebody's food who spent 30 years doing what they do, who has had the travel experience, who have tasted certain dishes around the world and have tasted, that's what they do for a living they eat, they taste, they taste. I taste every single day, every one of my dishes over and over and over and over again.

40:40So when I see a young food critic or a young Instagrammer that says certain things, like, I have an opinion, but am I taking it seriously? Probably not. Yeah, so then I wonder if talent maybe is really just skill plus obsession. So you've had, you were developing the skills and you're obsessed enough to try everything, to travel everywhere, to get that, to develop those taste buds as opposed to just being born with them. I mean, I think for me, you have to factor in the discipline aspect of it and the ability to outwork everyone. And that doesn't necessarily mean just stand there working, working, working.

41:27but I think talent plays some point but if you got a guy with talent and you got a guy who has a incredible work ethic I think that's going to be the winning guy because he's going to outwork everybody around him and he's going to put the time and the reps into being better at what he does it's like the Michael Jordan thing you know how many he started with every practice with the very very basic fundamental stuff over and over and he's one of the world's greatest basketball players of all time. But he starts to practice every single practice with the very basic fundamental stuff. He doesn't have to do that.

42:07I mean, but it's owning those skills. Yeah, like thinking about that example, I always wonder, let's say you're in the NBA, which means already you're in the top, I don't know, 100 basketball players on the planet. And like a million kids might have tried to be one of those 100 and you're in that top 100. And then there's Michael Jordan, who's the best of those 100 at that time, in let's say late 80s. And why don't you, knowing that all it takes is maybe another hour or two, three hours a day of working to get to a little bit closer to Michael Jordan, why don't you put in that work? You're willing to put in enough work to be in the top 100, but not in the top 10.

42:51Discipline. Discipline. Work ethic. I think it's discipline. You know, there's the difference between motivation and discipline are drastically different. You know, motivation is great. I'm motivated to go outside and run right now because it's sunny, it's beautiful. But if it wasn't sunny and beautiful, would I have the want to go and do that? Probably not. But the discipline kicks in and says, I'm going to do it whether it's raining or not, or if it's sunny outside or not. That's the difference, I think. Was working for someone like Charlie Trotter, did that help with the motivation part? You saw how he was working.

43:34Yeah, the discipline, his aspect, his work ethic was pretty incredible, right? I mean, we would start our days really early and Charlie would be there already. You know, not necessarily in the kitchen working, but he was in the restaurant. So knowing to get where you need to get, It takes a lot of focus and a lot of discipline and being there every day and leading the team and driving the team. I think that's what made him so great at what he did. And then afterwards, it's almost like, okay, you develop this incredible skill set. You get to the peak of your game. And then you've made two reinventions in your career, two slight pivots.

44:15One is you go into the restaurant business. So now you're not just a chef, but a businessman. And then you go into the media business. And, you know, these are almost like almost natural extensions of your skill, taking it into different areas where you could apply that skill. But I feel like going from that creativity and that pleasure of cooking to be going into business could be a very painful shift. And obviously it was. There's growing pains no matter what because people are different, you know, and how people treat you. It becomes a legal thing when you go into business. Like no matter how great, no matter what, again, this is where judge of character comes in is you have to know who you're dealing with in a different way than you do in the kitchen.

45:00Like what was the most, and you describe this in the book, but what is the most painful thing of going from being quote unquote just a chef to running a restaurant? In a different, you know, the chef no longer these days is just cooking in the kitchen and making sure that the food comes out properly and well seasoned and hot and timely. there are so many more

45:25aspects to what we do on a daily basis where we're social media and we're marketing we're the face of the restaurant we're understanding the accounting we're doing the books we have to have a little bit of knowledge of HR and how to treat people and all of these things play a huge role in what we do every single day and that role of the chef becomes, as a restaurateur, as an owner, magnified because now you're taking majority of your time is no longer in the kitchen. And the thing that you love to do the most is to be in the kitchen. And now you're forced to be outside of the kitchen. And for me, I'm trying to grow the business.

46:11So my biggest thing is making sure that I have the right team in place so I can go and grow the business because if I'm able to grow the business, then everybody can win around me even more. If that makes sense. It gives me opportunity, which gives them opportunity as well. And as part of that, is that what got you into media, the TV shows and the Iron Chefs of the world and things like that? Was it to kind of expand the brand of the restaurant at first? Exactly. It's all about the brand expansion and having more visible eyes on what we do brings more people to the restaurant, gives us more opportunity to go and do other things.

46:54It gives us opportunity to grow the business and do restaurants for some of our younger cooks that they can go and run or own. Yeah, sort of like you incubate them. Yeah, absolutely. and going in media was that was there anything you had to learn any new skill you had to learn to be successful in that arena in this new arena I don't know not really I've always said I've just got to be myself you know it's hard to be yourself I've got to be likable you know it's hard because people put you in this platform people put you in this bods glass box if you will and and you're like untouchable. They think you're untouchable.

47:38And for me, I'm constantly fighting against that because I want people to understand that I'm just as human as everybody else. And I want to be touchable and be at everybody's level. But sometimes it's the other people that put you there. But I feel like in the media too, it's almost like you have to cultivate a personality because yes, you want to be yourself, but you also you know at least on the let's say the tv executive side they want a personality they want someone to see you a certain way so you're the bad guy you're like the darth vader or the luke skywalker of the kitchen you know and and so they try to kind of make those elements of your personality at at extreme so you almost like a wrestling championship so i wonder you know how you were able to and you see this all the time like the classic tv chef is screaming at their you know at everybody basically like how were you were you able to avoid kind of any pull from the from the executives on what your personality should be for the audience yeah i think they've all let me be who i am um just i think most of them relies on the the talent and you know the what I've been able to achieve through my career, I think.

49:00And I've never had to be the guy who's screaming and yelling. Yeah, I've never had to be that guy. I'm happy to if that's what they want me to do. But that's not what I do. I try to be who I am at the restaurant.

49:28I'm always curious about this, like in some of these time competitions, where it seems like to me like heavy pressure, they're ticking down the clock and you have to, you know, make this really complicated dish. Is that easier than what you have to do in a Michelin starred restaurant? Or is it completely different? Yeah, well, I wouldn't say it's easier. But the time restraints, yeah, they seem it's that same pressure, right? It's the pressure of, of getting things done in a certain amount of time. We feel that pressure every single day in the restaurant. We only have a certain amount of time before the doors open.

50:02And if we open at five o 'clock and you start working backwards, at what point do you allow the staff into the restaurant to start working for dinner service that night? Because everything is created that day for dinner service that night. Then you have to play in the factor of burning out your cooks, financially overtime, The two things that will crush your restaurant is overtime and labor and the food cost. So you have to strike that balance of making sure that you're giving the cooks enough time to be successful in what they do and what they need to get done. But you also have to push them also because if you just give them another hour every day, they're going to take that hour and still not get what they need to get done.

50:54It's that crazy mentality of a human that if you have five hours to do something, you'll take all five hours to do what you're supposed to do. But if you have to do it in three hours, you're going to get it done in three hours. So as a leader, we have to know where that line is and draw a sharp line in the sand with it. And in the book, you describe the four components of what you think making what every great restaurant needs. What do you think is the difference between a two-star restaurant and a three-star restaurant? Sometimes I wonder, is it just a subjective thing of whoever was there that day?

51:31Or is there a real difference between a two-star and a three-star? I think there is. I think you nailed it both. Where it's, you know, a restaurant doesn't have great nights every single night. And when you're off one night, that could be a night that an inspector's in shopping your restaurant. And you miss the mark. That's why it's so hard for us. You know, that's where consistency comes into play. We have to be consistent five nights a week, 50 weeks out of the year. We have to be consistent. We have to be great five nights a week. And when we're not, those could be the nights that, unfortunately, we get shopped by the Michelin Guide or by James Beard or by any list out there.

52:21But I think what makes a two - and three-star restaurant different is the amount of time that the restaurant has. So I've always said time allows a chef to really hone their skill and hone the inner workings of the restaurant. And the more time we have, if we're all focusing on being better than we were yesterday, then just that little bit every day pushes us into a better place than we were a week ago, a year ago, six years from now. We're a better restaurant. The people who work with you and work for you, do you see them trying to improve every day? Do you motivate them to do that? That's part of always been part of the culture is making sure we're doing something better every day.

53:08And it could be the simplest things. The very simplest things could be the entire kitchen focusing on one thing a week for five days. Let's focus on folding these towels perfectly every single time for an entire week. Because that entire week, next week, they're not thinking about it, but the towel is still getting folded perfectly and now they're on to something new that they're focusing on. And it's just the small little things. Will the guests ever notice that we fold those perfectly? No. But it doesn't matter. It's the mindset that everybody's getting better. And, you know, obviously every industry evolves, every industry changes, but what doesn't change is people eat food, people like good food.

53:57But what do you see changing now in the restaurant industry or where could it evolve? I don't know, actually. I'm not sure where things are moving into right now. It's hard. I may want to say maybe fast casual could be, not fast casual, but like an elevated fast casual where you have these restaurants that you could go to every single day and be completely fine with at a lower price point that the quality is much better than it was before. So is fast casual, and forgive me my ignorance, would that be like a P.F. Chang's is fast casual? Yeah, I think that's a great example, actually. You could certainly go there every day of the week.

54:46It's not breaking the bank. And it's decent food. You know, it's not the worst out there. It's not fast food, you know, where you're in and out, but it's, you know, it's elevated to some degree. Yeah, and how do you see, you see that getting more prevalent, that type of restaurant? I think so, yeah. Or do you see the food getting better at those places? Yeah, I think the food getting better. Obviously, we're in this, and have been in this, you know, time in everybody's life where everybody wants something better. Everybody wants quality. They want to know where the food comes from. They want to understand product.

55:28And we're in a world of allergies, food allergies and dislikes. And the way to get rid of a lot of those things are wholesome grown food from knowing where stuff comes from. I'm really intrigued by the creativity aspect. I think this is, you know, unless you're watching all the TV shows, it's a hard thing to get around. Like, let's say I want to make a BLT for my wife. So help me out. Like, what should I do that is like a little bit more creative than just toasting bread and getting bacon, lettuce, tomato on there? You're like my wingman. From a home cook? Yeah, me specifically. I mean, for me, it's like, it's finding, it's for me it's always about the ingredients it's about finding the best possible ingredients because you can't make a great sandwich with shitty ingredients you can't make anything great with shitty ingredients so you know it's finding the best bread that whether it's from a bakery or a certain brand that you really love taking the care and toasting it properly finding the right bacon whether it's cured or not cured maybe it's from a local butcher that does it in-house and having them slice it thick or thin however you like it maybe you're not buying the mayonnaise but maybe you're making an aioli that's flavored with green garlic because green garlic is in season those small touches are what would stand out making it a better sandwich and finding the right lettuce of course having it all come together is also it's like a beautiful thing.

57:16Like the toast on the bread is so important. So it's not so hard that it's cutting the inside of your mouth. It's one of my pet peeves that drives me crazy when you get a sandwich and it's so hard that two days later, your mouth is like completely raw. Yeah, that's no good. Which by the way, makes me think of French bread or maybe it's Italian bread. One of those breads I always feel are always too hard. Always, always. I don't understand it. I mean, I get the purpose of it, but not for a sandwich. Yeah, interesting. French baguettes. Yeah, French baguettes. It's like you bite into it, you could lose a tooth.

57:55Yeah, and I'm sure many have. So why does anybody ever buy those? I don't know. I mean, we were just in France, and my son was walking down the street with a baguette every single day that we were there, just tearing it and eating it. It's different, though, there. It's completely different than a baguette you would get in the States. Completely different. I actually took a piece of it and I ate it. And I thought about it for two days afterwards. And it was just one bite. It was just one little chunk. And I thought about it for two days because it was so different. Bali was so incredible. Incredible.

58:34Like, what did you taste? What was different? It was like a whole wheat baguette as well. So it was like the grain. You could taste the grain. You could taste... It didn't feel processed. You know, it didn't feel like a baguette you would get in the States. It was very rustic and flavorful. Yeah, I could see why he ate one every day. Do you feel like French food's too buttery? It can be, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Whenever I go there, I'm kind of more disappointed in the food than I thought I would be. I know. It's heavy. It's rich. It's heavy. I cook with very minimal fats and butter. So for me, like fat and butter and cream, all those things kind of mute the flavors of what you're...

59:27It kind of masks everything. So it feels very rich and heavy for me. It sort of reminds me of when a stand-up comedian curses. because it's like sort of a shortcut to getting a laugh. And I feel like fat or butter or sugar could be a shortcut to getting a person to say, when they're not really tasting what you're making. Absolutely. Yeah, you're right. I have one deep insight into cooking. So my wife actually won't let me in the kitchen. I don't know why I try, but I haven't cooked anything in like 30 years. so oh wow maybe i'm gonna try this blt idea but i gotta i gotta research the local ingredients oh you gotta do it when she's not there yeah exactly and then surprise her with it yep exactly and then she's got to say yes to eat it but we'll see probably won't but you know chef curtis duffy the book is fireproof memoir of a chef it's a really intense story i mean people should read it because I was blown away and you've had a fascinating career.

1:00:38You detail so much in the memoir. I'm so glad you came on the show. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And I've never eaten in one of your restaurants, I'll admit. So I'm going to go find a restaurant and eat there and then write up my rating on Instagram. Exactly. Well, James, I appreciate you having me on the show. It's been an honor to sit here and chat with you. Thank you for taking the time to read Fireproof. It was a pure joy to write with my co-writer, Jeremy. We had a blast writing it. A lot of ups and downs. A lot of sadness. A lot of laughter. Everything in between. It was great.

1:01:18I can imagine. It's really intense what you've gone through. Obviously, you came out in inspiration on the other side. It's great. Well, thank you very much.

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