Should We Have a Random-ocracy? With AJ Jacobs

0:00Look, as a manager of people, as an employer, as an entrepreneur, and as an investor in startups, I can tell you the most important thing for your business is the quality of the quality of people. you hire. The best part is that great candidates are already on LinkedIn. Employees hired through LinkedIn are 30 % more likely to stick around for at least a year compared to those hired through the leading competitor. And I will tell you that the great thing about LinkedIn is that you're not just looking at random people. You're able to see the people who your friends and trusted peers and colleagues who they trust and who they've hired in the past and who they recommend.

0:42And hiring doesn't have to be complicated. Realistically, when you have a business to run, you don't want to spend hours on hiring. You want to hire the right person as quickly as possible. That's why LinkedIn Jobs AI Assistant suggests immediately 25 great big candidates daily so you can invite them to apply and keep things moving. Hire right the first time. Post your job for free at linkedin.com slash altature. then promote it to use LinkedIn Jobs' new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find the top candidates. That's linkedin.com slash Altachirk. Post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.

1:24Should we have a randomocracy instead of a democracy? And if you don't know what a randomocracy is, it's actually fascinating. I'm gonna leave that as a cliffhanger. I talk with A.J. Jacobs again about his upcoming book where he spends a year basically living the life of the Constitution. And he's done a deep dive on what every amendment and aspect of the Constitution means. He'll describe again what it means to live the life of the Constitution. But one thing he brought up, which was fascinating and we discussed for quite a bit, is the notion of a randomocracy. And I'll let A.J. describe what that is.

2:03At first I thought this was ridiculous, but then it sounded intriguing to me. And I would love to know your opinion. You can tweet out at me at Jay Altucher. Please share this episode. And I'd love to hear as many opinions as possible on whether or not we should have a randomocracy. So enjoy the episode.

2:23This isn't your average business podcast, and he's not your average host. This is the James Altucher Show.

2:39Now, let me ask you about, I'm curious about the constitution. And well, first of all, one last thing on the puzzle thing. I have a puzzle idea for you. I love doing these on YouTube, which is you play a sound like for one second and someone, it's like, it's like there used to be a TV show, name that tune. So like take Beatles songs and, you know, see, okay, for five seconds, how well someone does three seconds of a song. Can they name it? One second of a song. We did this on this podcast, actually. Oh, you did? And it was fun, yeah. Who did you play it with? Who did it? Just Jay, Robin, and me did it.

3:13Ah, well, yeah, we actually have similar. We have one which named that supervillain evil laugh. So we play a laugh and you have to figure out what evil. We had one where it was named that yeah. So there are all these songs with recognizable yeahs, like the Beatles, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's funny. So yeah, I love, that's one thing that I love, the creativity of doing puzzles in audio form. And that, that is one thing that I've meant to say this upfront. I think of you every day because every day I, in my morning routine, after I do my puzzles, I spend 15 minutes brainstorming ideas, 98 % of which suck and we'll never see the light of day.

4:00but I got that from you. And it's key, right? Because A, you have to exercise that idea muscle. If this was the first day you sat down doing it, it would be really hard to even come up with ideas. Now you can come up with ideas and it's okay that some are bad, some are good because you know you're abundant with ideas. Yeah, it has definitely made my life better. Do you still use the waiter pad? I do, yeah. Or I'll use whatever pad or piece of paper. I don't have as many waiter pads right now but like if I'm at a hotel, I'll use the pad next to the phone. Like I'll take whatever is around. I do actually find writing it by hand makes the ideas flow more.

4:42Yeah. I don't know what that is. It's the only time I ever handwrite is when I'm writing ideas down. Well, you know, for my constitution book, I wrote a lot by hand. I mean, I have a quill ink. I can get it out now for you. I've been like, you know, a goose quill and ink. Are you only doing, like, are you only writing with the quill? Like, you know how when you were living by the Bible, you only were doing things. Like, if you did something that wasn't by the Bible, it wasn't good. Like, you had to stick to the Bible 24 hours a day. So are you only writing with a quill? Well, I am trying to abide by the Constitution 24 hours a day.

5:19But there is nothing in the Constitution that says, you know, you have to write with a quill. So there's sort of two parts to the project. One is actually expressing my rights in a originalist way. And then the second part is sort of living as if I were in 1789. So I do do a lot of writing with Quill. Sometimes I'll cheat and write with Quill, take a picture, and then text it to someone. So I sort of like combine the two. But let me ask you a question. What do you think is the hardest? What do you think is one thing people don't truly understand about the Constitution? Well, I will say this. I will get yelled at very, very loudly and angrily by my publisher if I talk too much about it.

6:01But let me just give you one, and then that'll be a teaser, a moose-boosh for when I come back. Well, one thing is, I think you have on one side, you have people saying the Constitution is, you know, it's perfect, it's flawless, it was, you know, written by these gods. And then on the other side, you have people who say that it is just, you know, it is a terrible document, that it was designed to keep oppression and other horrible things happening. And I think both are true. I think it can be both at the same time. There is a strain in the Constitution that is wonderful and democratic and about the common good.

6:47there is also a strain in the Constitution that is about making sure the elite stay the elite. So it is almost like Schrodinger's cat there. You know, it is two things at once. So the key is to focus on the good part and try to fulfill that, the democratic part of the Constitution, as opposed to the other part. But do you think, though, the elitist part has been trending over the centuries towards non-elitist? So, for instance, the idea that initially the Senate, a senator was elected by their legislature as opposed to the population of the state. Now, of course, there was that change. There was an amendment to change that.

7:27And senators are elected by the people, not just the elite in the legislature. I would say that is the big story that the we the people initially meant we the white, wealthy, educated people. And we have been, the fight over the centuries has been to try to expand that to women, to black people, to people who are 18. The voting age used to be 21. So that has been a long fight. And, you know, it continues. But there are, yeah, there are elements. It's a complicated document. I feel that when I did the Bible, people would say, oh, the Bible says this, the Bible says that. And I'm like, well, parts of the Bible say that and parts of the Bible don't.

8:16The Bible is complicated. And I feel the same way about the Constitution. And, you know, I know you can't. I'll just ask one more thing because we'll definitely do a deep dive on the Constitution later. But what was the pamphlet about that you wrote and handed out in order to demonstrate free speech? Well, that one I was, I decided that Twitter, I think a lot of the founding fathers would be horrified. by social media because it's so fast. They wanted ways to slow down our thinking as opposed to speed it up. So I decided instead of tweeting something or X-ing, whatever it is now, I would write it with my quill pen on parchment paper and hand it out in Times Square.

9:02So I did. And I did tweets on, so they were mini pamphlets is what I called them. So I did one about, But I said, like, among all types of voting methods, ranked choice voting is my number one favorite. It was something like that. All right. And I did a couple of others. And it was, I will say, it was interesting to lock eyes with people as you were handing them out. As you were tweeting, something that never happened. As I was tweeting, yeah. Yeah. And I couldn't like say, you know, something incredibly horrible about, you know, you're an idiot or whatever. Because I was looking these people in the eyes.

9:58look as a manager of people as an employer as an entrepreneur and as even an investor in startups i can tell you the most important thing for your business is the quality of the people you hire the best part is that great candidates are already on LinkedIn. Employees hired through LinkedIn are 30 % more likely to stick around for at least a year compared to those hired through the leading competitor. And I will tell you that the great thing about LinkedIn is that you're not just looking at random people. You're able to see the people who your friends and trusted peers and colleagues who they trust and who they've hired in the past and who they recommend.

10:41And hiring doesn't have to be complicated. Realistically, when you have a business to run, you don't want to spend hours on hiring. You want to hire the right person as quickly as possible. That's why LinkedIn Jobs AI Assistant suggests immediately 25 great fit candidates daily so you can invite them to apply and keep things moving. Hire right the first time. Post your job for free at linkedin.com slash Altature. then promote it to use LinkedIn Jobs' new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find the top candidates. That's LinkedIn.com slash Altachirk. Post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.

11:17This message comes from Capital One. The Capital One Venture X business card has no preset spending limit, so the card's purchasing power can adapt to meet business needs. Plus, the card earns unlimited double miles on every purchase, so the more a business spends, the more miles earned. And when traveling, the VentureX Business Card grants access to over a thousand airport lounges. The VentureX Business Card. What's in your wallet? Terms and conditions apply. Find out more at CapitalOne.com slash VentureXBusiness. There's a reason why it's like the most important amendment of the Constitution, this idea that you can't punish somebody for what they say.

11:57and the reason they have to put that in there is because people were punishing people for what they said, particularly in other societies. So I wonder if maybe this is the only type of question I have where I'm pushing at you, but maybe you need to hand out something where most people are not going to agree with you and yet you have this right to free speech. Well, I will say, yes, The idea of disagreeing with someone is great, and that is totally American. But I was actually just reading the Federalist Papers, and Hamilton wrote something that I loved. And I'm going to botch the quote exactly, but it said something like, no one was ever converted to a religion truly by iron and violence.

12:53I'll get the exact quote. But his idea was if you want to change someone's mind, do not go in attacking them. It's all about listening and making reasonable arguments and being thoughtful and seeing the world from different lenses. So that – there was a lot that I think the founding fathers got wrong, obviously slavery. but there were some things that they were very wise about and that is one of them. It's all about trying to have a reasonable civil debate. But I wonder if you wrote a pamphlet which was reasonable and civil but it was about a more controversial topic. And obviously there's a whole spectrum of controversial out there but let's just say you wrote a pamphlet that said nobody should, it is useless to vote.

13:48And because this is related to the Constitution and voting is of course part of the constitutional process. You make that argument, right? But you can make an argument to not vote because like, oh, you're one vote among whatever. I mean, there's arguments on both sides. And then it's interesting because the thing is, everybody says you have to vote if you want to have a voice. But my whole thinking is the Constitution says I have a right to vote, but I don't have to vote. I also have a right not to vote. Well, I will say two things. One, I think the best things that I, the things I like to read, and which is why we did good or bad, it's all about nuances.

14:28So it's not, I don't think you would ever actually say voting is useless. You would say there are pros and cons to voting. Here is why I maybe choose not to in this particular case. And that is reasonable. Well, that is something that I will listen to. But if someone says a black and white thing, I'm gonna tune it out. So I like nuance. I like - Yeah, that's interesting. You do like nuance. That's your books. Your books are about nuance. I love a nuance. I love a nuance. And here's the second thing that I'll just mention is that you might be interested. I have a little section on this in the book and then I can't talk about it anymore.

15:09But there are people, some very smart people, who want to abolish voting. Really? That is the craziest, least democratic. That's the definition of tyranny. How would you elect anybody? Well, there you go. Their argument is a randomocracy. It's like the jury pool. You choose your governor, your senator, your mayor, randomly. So you have to pass a certain civil test. So you have to, like, you know, you got a few thousand people who pass the test that they know enough, that they're reasonable. And then once it goes there, it becomes random. It's a lottery. And the idea is Adam Grant, who I'm sure you've had on the show.

16:01Oh, yeah, many times. He wrote about this in the New York Times, and he endorses it. There's a Yale political science professor who endorses it. It's been tried a tiny bit in Iceland and France in very small ways. But it's a very interesting idea because... It's not the worst idea I've ever heard. No, it is not. One thing, one argument for it is that the studies show the people who are attracted to politics have the dark triad. They are narcissistic, sociopathic, and I forget the other one, but Machiavellian. So they are not, that is who is attracted to running. But if you do it as a randomocracy, you're going to get people who are much lower on that scale, perhaps.

16:48So it's an interesting idea. It's dangerous. I don't really, I don't want it to become a randomocracy tomorrow. I mean, the danger is, is that then the lifelong government workers would get a lot more power. Well, one solution, and I don't want to get into too much detail, but one solution is you get a lifelong pension. So you are the senator or your congressman for five years, and then that's it. You're not allowed to work anymore because otherwise you would have to, you could be corrupted while you're in office. So it's almost like you're sacrificing. You're doing this one thing. That's it. You get a lifelong pension, a life of leisure afterwards.

17:36And that's your duty to country. And that's very interesting. But what I was saying, though, is let's say you get the job as secretary of state. Like, oh, let's I guess that's not an elected position so that you would still have to appoint someone. Like, let's say I randomly was picked to be president. You'd still have to appoint someone to be secretary of state. Well, you could make that random too. You could get rid of appointments too, which may be a good idea. But at some point you need a layer of people who actually know what to do. Well, that exactly, that's a big counter argument. Like expertise, is this a terrible idea?

18:15And people who are, the name of it is sortition. That's the fancy name, but I just call it randomocracy. I love that. Randomocracy people say that actually having a lower level of expertise is not bad because they're more humble and they will ask actual experts and listen to them when they make decisions. Maybe if that's formalized, like there are councils of expertise out there that help the random people. and that has to change a lot too so that no one person in those councils could get too much power or influence. Right. I mean, it's a really interesting... I love this. I might have to switch my beliefs to this.

19:01Switch to a sortition. One thing I did love that this Yale professor said was, you know, we are still basically using ideas from the 18th century. You know, these 18th century people came up with some radical new ideas about representation and balance of powers. And we're 300, 250 years later, we're still coasting on those. So maybe it's time. It makes sense for the Senate and Congress because in general, particularly Congress, like in general, the average Congress person does not have a lot of expertise before they enter Congress. They're just supposed to vote based on the beliefs, ideally of their constituency, their district.

19:42But I guess like for things like foreign policy, it's useful to have a long-term, the idea is it's useful to have a long-term congressman, but maybe it's not. Like who's to say? Well, I would be terrified if this actually came to pass. I mean, I think it'd be interesting to start like in a tiny, tiny way, like one council person from a town in North Dakota is selected by lottery. Then we see what happens. But, you know, this is not something I want to see ever in the next year. Like maybe in a hundred years when we've worked out the kinks, it'd be good to - But you know what it reminds me of though?

20:19Have you ever seen the Isaac Asimov story franchise? No, what's the idea? So, okay, basically with polling today, obviously, you know, you don't have to poll everybody in the United States to know who's the likely winner for presidency, you have to poll enough people to be statistically significant. So maybe a few thousand people in every state to know how each state's gonna go and then you figure out the electoral college. So they master the art of polling so well that instead of a few thousand people, then it became like, you just need a few hundred people to be statistically significant. And then you just need a dozen people.

20:59And then they figured out that you just need one person and the computer, like this is the beginning of mainframe computers. So they have this multi-vac computer figures out who is the average person in the US and that person picks the president. Like that, you only need one vote to pick the president. That's a great idea. It kind of reminds me of the Nielsens, which I think have lost some power, But it was just crazy how much power these, I don't remember, few thousand people had over what millions of people saw on television. And my friend Joel Stein, who you might have had on the show, who's hilarious, he once pitched a sitcom to one of the networks called The Nielsens.

21:51and it would be about a Nielsen family. And his theory was everyone who's a Nielsen family would watch the Nielsens to see what it was like. So it would get a hundred rating, a hundred share. Everyone was a Nielsen. Oh my God, that is a brilliant idea. That is like, that's kind of like very life hackish. It is very life hackish, yeah. Like it's a guarantee to have the fewest possible viewers, but still get like the highest Nielsen ratings. It's true. You know what else I love about Nielsens is that the moon landing only got a 93 share, meaning there were 7 % of people in the world or in the United States who were like, yeah, let's see what else is on.

22:34Right, I'm so bored of this already. Put it back to Wheel of Fortune. Yeah, I honestly think it was the three stooges is my memory. I could be totally fabricating that, but I have a vague memory that that was the counter-programming. So yeah, you can never please everyone. That's that is whenever I think about, oh, this guy, you know, said he hated the show or whatever. I'm like, you know what? Moon landing got 93 share. You could never please everyone. That is fascinating. Well, AJ, puzzles, constitution, writing, as usual, I can't wait to the next time you're on the podcast. Please, when you finish this book, can you come on a little more regularly?

23:19like, okay, we'll do good or bad, but I want more puzzles. I want more constitution. I love this stuff. Are you kidding? Yeah, just give me one month and then I'm done because it has to close soon. They want it out very soon before the election. And then I'm yours and you come on mine. Oh yeah, definitely. And in order for it to get out, like people don't realize, like right now we're 13 months to the election, but you basically have to finish the book. Then it goes through six months of editorial. Then it's gotta be designed and interior designed and they have to send it out to all the bookstores.

23:49and it takes 13 months from finishing for your book to come out. It's a super slow process still. And yeah, I don't know whether that's good or bad, but I have to finish it by early November. Did we ever do a good or bad about doing self-publishing versus traditional publishing? No, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. I know very little about self-publishing. We'll do that. The good thing about an A.J. Jacobs book, though, being traditionally published is that it's in all the airport bookstores. Your books, you and Tucker Max and Malcolm Gladwell and John Grisham are reliably in all the airport bookstores.

24:29Well, bless you for saying so. I do love seeing him there. Thank you, James. Thank you so much, AJ. That was so fun as always. Loved it.

24:48You