Supercharge Your Mind, Supercharge Your Love | Amy Morin's Secrets to Unstoppable Mental Strength and Relationship Bliss!

23:16Writing the book is only a small fraction of the battle. And marketing, you know, if you're a writer and not a marketer, marketing is much harder than writing and you have to do a lot of it. So that's one of the reasons why I like self-publishing is that you could kind of do it at your own pace. But yeah, so that's definitely one of those situations. But when I was reading this 13 Things Mentally Strong couples don't do it's it struck me how often i've done these things too that mentally strong couples don't do and it's a couple is two people so one or or both of the people do in order to do one of the things mentally strong couples don't do it just takes one person in the couple to do one of these 13 things and then there's a problem and i've definitely done all 13 of these probably fairly recently too and and and you know i've been to couples therapy let's see marriage one marriage two and and at least two relationships and i really hate going to couples therapy like i i i think i'm going to ask you a lot of questions i don't mean to be hogging this but i feel like like with any profession the top five percent are good and the other 95 are damaging and i'm talking about, this is not just therapists, but like doctors, lawyers, accountants, like any profession that's helping individuals, you really have to make sure that you're going to the top 5 % because it's true for any profession.

24:4795 % are just not going to be that good. And, but for couples therapy, if you go to one that's not good, your relationship is in danger. I wholeheartedly agree with that, that there are some times you might go to a therapist who says something quite damaging or they say something that is not helpful at all, but especially in a relationship, you go to somebody who takes sides and makes it clear who they side with, or you go to somebody who, I don't know, it gives you really bad advice. It could be terrible for your relationship. Yeah. And again, I want to go over the specific 13 things, but I feel like the taking sides thing is a big issue.

25:23Like you take sides, when you see couples, do you ever find yourself taking sides a little bit? Yeah. I mean, of course in my head, I'm thinking like, well, no wonder she does this. It's because you're doing that. Or we're going to have couples that come in and like, can you believe it? Would you stay with somebody who did X, Y, and Z? And what if your partner did something like this to you? And I'm thinking, yeah, well, I'd be upset too. So it is tough to remember. Like, it's not my job to take side. It's not my job to decide who's right and who's wrong. It's about helping this couple work together.

25:51But of course, we're human beings too. Yeah. And the other problem I had with couples therapy is like, you know, you go on a regular basis. Like you sign up to go every week, say, and, uh, sometimes a week might be good. And so let's say I'm going to couples therapy with, I haven't gone to couples therapy with my current wife, but let's say it in a prior relationship, it's almost like in the cab on the way there, we're trying to figure out like, well, it's like we're doing homework. Like, well, what went wrong that we could talk about? Right. And so that's a drag too. And I've worked with couples too, who then like throughout the course of the week, they're trying to be on their best behavior because they're like, I don't want you to bring this up in counseling next week.

26:31So then they like either avoid subjects because they're like, I don't want to get in a fight about this because then we'll have to talk about it. Or they just, they find that they're kind of tiptoeing around things or they're extra pleasant two days before therapy, all because they're really just trying to avoid having to discuss difficult subjects in therapy. So instead of really working on their relationship, it becomes more about making sure a therapy appointment is as easy, as smooth as possible. And then I guess the third thing that tends to happen in a therapy session, in a couples therapy session for me, is I sort of instinctively go into the mode where I want the therapist to like me more than my partner.

27:10And it's just like an instinct. So I will act in ways that I feel I'm winning the session. and that's not that healthy either. It's not. And I think sometimes in the therapy session, somebody who maybe struggles with something outside of the office, you can hold it together right there in front of the therapist. So then they're like, no, I don't really struggle with that. I'm not sure what my partner's talking about. Or there's always two sides to a story and we get to decide how we're going to paint the picture too. So then people sometimes will be like, you know, my version is this and yours is that.

27:46But yet, yeah, just trying to get the therapist to align with us and to like us better is certainly something that I think is pretty natural. Like we want to be liked. Yeah, yeah. I think, and look, some people are better at being likable than others. So in a couple, you know, one person could win the session potentially. Right, right. So the first thing mentally strong couples don't do is they don't ignore their problems. So like, let's say they're really scared about money or debt or paying the mortgage. and they express that anxiety in different ways. And so the relationship has a problem, but they're kind of ignoring the real root of this and talking about it and not getting angry and defensive and so on.

28:32And money is a big one that people ignore, so I'm glad you brought that up because sometimes it'll be, we have different values about money, so we don't know how to talk about it, or it's too anxiety-provoking to really sit down and look at the budget, or sometimes one person earns more than the other, so they aren't sure how to divide expenses, or one person has a different taste and they like expensive things more than the other person, it brings up a lot of issues. Our own values are the way that we handle money, but then you try to combine that with somebody else. So it means we're either going to argue about it or we're going to disagree.

29:03We have to agree to disagree or your partner might want you to change your habits. Lots of reasons why people are like, I'm just going to sweep this under the rug and pretend it doesn't exist. Do you find people tend to fix these things? like i feel like sometimes these patterns are so ingrained you know like let's say the problem is the woman feels she does all the housework and the man feels he makes all the money and they were both resent each other for that and so that's like a common thing they sort of split the difference on these two different ideas do they but they never really solve it like it's sort of so built into our culture to think that way.

29:43And that's a common one that a lot of couples will feel like that. And so I think sometimes it's just about understanding each other. Like, all right, my partner thinks X, Y, and Z. I think this. We don't have to think the same way, but just understanding and having some empathy over perhaps this is what their experience is like. And is there another way of looking at it? Just opening yourself up to that possibility can go a long way. What if one person thinks there's a problem but the other person doesn't? like I wait one person comes in I don't think we have any problem I'm fine with the marriage and the other person's like uh this this this like does that happen a lot that happens all the time and so I try to tell people well you don't have to agree that there's a problem but if your partner thinks there's a problem there is some kind of a problem whether you agree with it or not and so then it becomes you need to uh is the problem to be solved is that just maybe helping your partner see things differently and changing their mind about the problem?

30:38Or might you change your behavior? Even if you don't agree that your behavior is a problem, it doesn't mean you can't change it. This next one is very important. They don't keep secrets. I think this is like the most important thing. Although the level to what's a secret and what's just, hey, I didn't know that was so important or whatever is tricky, the line there. It is. So most people would say, yeah, obviously you're not going to keep a huge secret if you have a serious health issue or you have a whole bunch of debt. You should probably tell that to your partner. But on the other hand, people will justify things like, well, yeah, I had coffee with my ex the other day, but it didn't mean anything.

31:14So I don't need to tell you about it. Or my coworker and I have been flirting a lot lately, but obviously I'm not going to tell my partner about that because it would upset them. So people often go to great lengths to justify the secrets that they keep by saying, I don't tell my partner because they wouldn't understand or because I don't want to upset them. But it's usually not about protecting your partner. It's really about protecting yourself. What's a secret where someone's, a couple's come to you and you know, you talk about examples in the book, but secrets that a couple has come to you with, whether one side or the other was keeping a secret and you really did feel that was an inappropriate secret to keep, but the person insisted, no, no, it was no big deal.

31:50So I've had people that have had children like before they got married and they, like it was a man who had a child many years ago, but he didn't tell his current wife that there was a kid out there that existed that was his. And he was like, you know, I'm not sure because if she'll really understand he was paying child support on this child and like under the table so that she wouldn't, he went to great lengths to make sure that this, his current wife didn't know that he had a child from a previous relationship. But he wasn't seeing the child at all? Nope. I guess because he had a bad end with the relationship and maybe she had a new boyfriend or whatever who was going to help raise the kid.

32:26So she didn't want to confuse the kid or I'm putting the nicest possible interpretation to it, but it's still a little weird. Yeah. And I think he'd gone years without seeing the child and probably felt guilty about that. So he was like, I don't want to step into the kid's life now. So he just thought it was better if it was left unsaid. But I've had lots of experiences like that where people have something from their past that they think this doesn't affect my current relationship. So I don't need to tell. But sometimes it was big things that definitely their partner would have wanted to know.

32:52Yeah. Although I see where the guy's coming from. He probably was a little insecure and didn't want his current wife to leave him. And it gets bigger and bigger, of course, the longer you keep the secret. Even though knowing this might not have anything to do one way or the other with her affection for him, he probably was just really scared. Right. And I've had other people who had been married before and somehow they were able to keep that a secret when they got remarried that it just never came up. And so they might've had an entire past life that their career partner knew nothing about. Wow.

33:27They don't hesitate to set boundaries. I think this is an interesting one. I always have a hard time understanding what boundaries are. So it's like a word that's used a lot like, oh, you need to respect boundaries or you need to set boundaries. But like, what's an example? So it might be a boundary within a relationship might be saying like, I'm not going to give you my password to my social media account, or you can't have the password to my phone. And you and your partner might decide that's an okay boundary for the two of you to have. And then the two of you also need boundaries with the outside world too.

34:02So you might decide my mother-in-law isn't going to come over unannounced, or we're not going to loan money to people, family members, without talking to each other first. Or I'm not going to loan out the car unless I talk to my partner because we don't just give our things away because our boundaries might be a little bit tighter than that. Yeah, those are all reasonable ones. On the social media one, what would you do right now if your husband today said, look, can I see your phone and your emails? I'd give it to him, and I know he'd be bored to tears within about 30 seconds. He doesn't even have social media, so he'd be like, well, why are you posting all this?

34:36Then I don't have anything to hide. So for me, it wouldn't be an issue, and I don't think that it's always about something to hide. Like if I were having a lot of private conversations with my friends and they were maybe about my friend's issues, if my friend was texting me that she had a specific personal issue in her life, that may not be my partner's business to then be able to say to my husband, yeah, you can go ahead and read all these messages that she sent just to me. So I don't think it's an issue necessarily when people say, I'm not going to give you all my passwords. Yeah. I think, I think there's a reverse issue too, which is why do you feel the need to see my email?

35:09So that could be a bigger issue. Yeah, people that struggle with, say, jealousy or insecurity, they often think, if I check your phone, I'll feel better. But it doesn't work like that. Because when people are snooping, they're usually looking for evidence that somebody's cheating or that they're up to something. When you don't find that evidence, you don't then breathe a huge sigh of relief. You usually then think, well, they probably have a secret phone or maybe they use a different app or maybe I should be listening in on their phone call. So for people who struggle with that, it usually just kind of ups the ante and they want more.

35:41I think like I'm thinking now, 30 years ago, I was in a relationship where I was suspicious. And it almost becomes like a once, like you never, like you say, you never get satisfied. It's almost like a full-time job. Like what's she up to now? Right, right. And it doesn't, you never solve anything. Because the only thing that's going to make you happy is to be really sad, is to find something that's bad. So like, oh, I was right. Oh no, I was right. So they don't become martyrs. What does that mean? So when there's that tendency to be like, I've given everything for this relationship or I have to do everything around here or I've sacrificed everything for my family, but you don't do it with joy.

36:26There's a difference between being like, oh sure, I don't really want to do that today, but the family wants to. So I'll go, I mean, like, I don't know any parent that's like, I love watching my child's fourth grade play for three hours, right? But you do it because you love your kid. But when you become a martyr, it's more about like, I did that and I had to do it and I hated every second of it. And even when somebody maybe offers to help, like a partner who says, hey, can I help you with that? Like, nope, because you don't do it right. So I'm going to do it all myself. And it's like a chip on your shoulder where there's this bitterness and resentment about everything that you do, claiming it's for the other person, And yet sometimes they didn't even ask you to do it.

37:03You're just going above and beyond and then complaining about the fact that you have to keep doing all this stuff. And so with a lot of these, and this is, we've read before, but there's, I'll go through some of the others. With a lot of these, it's just, is it just a matter of just being really upfront as quickly as possible? Like, hey, I'll do this, but I just want you to be aware I'm doing more here. And I don't know, like, how do you talk about that? Yeah, I think a lot of problems would be solved if we were way more upfront. And if our partners, when we express those things, if our partners just hurt us.

37:37So usually what happens is when somebody says, hey, I'm like carrying 80 % of the load around here, their partner is usually quick to be like, oh yeah, I'm carrying 150 % of the load. And here's why. And it gets into this argument of like, who's doing more? If we just listen to each other, like, oh, you feel like you're doing a lot more. Tell me more about that. Almost 90 % of conversations like that could go much smoother and people could come to an agreement or figure out how do we move forward. But so often we don't want to listen. And we've all been there. Somebody says, hey, I'm struggling with this.

38:07And we're like, yeah, well, I'm struggling with that twice as much. And it just becomes like this competition of who has it the most or who's devoting the most energy. And then nothing ever becomes of it because you can't agree on who's the biggest martyr, who's doing sacrificing the most for the relationship. I have an idea for you on how you can write, you know, obviously you write follow-up articles that are related to the book as part of the marketing, you could write 13 scripts or maybe you have 13 articles like scripts for, cause what you just said about what they should say that, like you said that 90 % of the time that just diffuses it right there.

38:40And I feel like if people know these scripts and really pay attention to them, that will solve a lot of these issues. That's a great idea. And I think I'll do that. Cause you're right. People will often say like, exactly what do I say? How do we have these conversations? So to give people the, and I do that too when I read a book and people are like, just bring up this issue. I want to know exactly what do I say in order to get what I, what it is I want. Cause I mean, it's gotta be like every couple probably has this conversation hundreds of times in their relationship. You know, I feel like I'm working 12 hours a day every day on blah, blah, blah.

39:16Oh yeah. Well I'm working 15 hours a day and it's more stressful and it's harder. Uh, so I feel like that happens all the time. Absolutely. Whether we're talking about money or like household responsibilities, parenting, like emotional labor, whatever it is. Yeah. There's always that push and pull of like, who's doing more. And there's going to be times where one person does more than the other. Like it's not going to be 50, 50 probably ever, but when we can have those discussions too, like, Hey, I'm working, my job is going to require more during the holidays. So I'm not going to have as much energy to put into the household, but it's temporary.

39:49You have those conversations up front, that kind of stuff can go a long way toward helping relationships too. Right. Like, so, so like there's all these scripts that people aren't even aware they can say these things because they feel like it might provoke a fight because that's what they're used to, because they're used to the, the keeping score aspect of these things. Like I did 12. No, I did 14. No, I did 17. Like when you could diffuse things without keeping score in one, using one of these scripts that you've been saying right here. So. Right. Right. Because I think the rebuttal is, or somebody says, I've been working 14 hours.

40:22And the other person says, I only work 10, but my job's harder. Right. And it's like, we're comparing apples to oranges yet. For some reason, we always do want to up the ante. And it's so obvious that keeping score is not going to solve a problem. Right. Yeah. Coming back with like, yeah. Coming back with like, no, you're wrong. I do more is never going to, has never solved any relationship. Like no one's going to say, you know, you're right. I love you, honey. No one's ever going to say that.

41:05they don't use their emotions as weapons i think that's a really important one it is it as a therapist i was like oh i'm gonna be cautious with this one because the last thing you want to do is if your partner's crying be like i think you're weaponizing your sadness in those chairs right now. But on the other hand, so many people do this where they're like, yeah, I wasn't actually anxious. I didn't want to do that thing. So I said, oh, I have anxiety. I can't do that. Or how many people use anger just as a way to get out of a conversation or to escape doing something like, oh, I just raised my voice a little and then I didn't have to do it because I pretended like I couldn't control my temper.

41:39And so the more that, you know, we talk about this in the therapy office all the time when people get honest, they often get really honest, like, yeah, I do that. Or people would say, yeah, I suspect my partner does that quite a bit too. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's, again, it's tricky on both sides. Like it's, it's easy to do it without even realizing you're doing it. And it's easy. I've definitely noticed it in different partners when they've been doing it. Like I had one, I had one time, a friend of mine, I was, I called this friend of mine, oh, I'm having an argument with my girlfriend. And he He said, and he was like kind of like a dating expert.

42:16So he said, okay, when she comes in and starts bringing it up, say this, this, and this. And he predicted exactly, okay, she's gonna walk over the window and she's gonna start crying. And everything he predicted actually came true because he was just assuming everybody manipulates everyone else. And this is what a manipulator would do. And it was really fascinating to see like different, he wasn't being a therapist for me. He was just describing like, this is what's going to happen. and here's how you could win this situation. That is fascinating. And I think there are patterns like that often.

42:48And if your partner struggles with an anxiety disorder, you don't want to discredit that and you may need to help them with something. But on the other hand, if your partner always says like, oh, I can't do that, I have anxiety, you don't want to just give in and be like, okay, I'll do everything around here because you struggle with this. Or when they start crying, it doesn't necessarily have to mean you end all conversations because then you don't have difficult conversations. And I see that happen all the time where people are like, we had to avoid this, this, and this because we couldn't talk about it because my partner gets too upset.

43:14Yeah. You know, another thing too about the keeping score, I think everybody thinks things should be equal all the time, but it's like you just pointed out, like sometimes somebody really does do more than the other. And it's not like every relationship is like a communist relationship. Like sometimes there's imbalance, but me being upfront and acknowledging that is useful. Yeah, there's seasons in our life. If you're taking care of an aging parent or you're dealing with, again, something stressful at work for a while, things like that, or you develop a health issue or you're struggling with something, like, yeah, you might need the other person to step it up for a while.

43:51And there may not be a definitive timeline. You might be like, for a while, I need some extra help or I'm going to need you to do X, Y, and Z. It'd be great if we could say it's just for the next six weeks, but it might be for a lot longer than that too. Yeah. Yeah. And that's hard because then like, what if some, what if because somebody is dealing with something or working so hard, they're emotionally unavailable for a certain period of time, but you just don't know how long, like how could they help each other in those situations? Again, I think it's about those conversations of saying like, like, let's say I'll use the one of somebody taking care of an aging parent.

44:25That's a really common one where somebody says, you know, my, my mom or my dad needs a lot of extra help around their house right now. So I'm going to be over there a lot. Then to figure out, well, how can I still meet some of my partner's emotional needs? And it might be that I call you every day for 20 minutes on my commute home so that we can touch base. And then when I get home, there's 15 minutes of sitting and talking about these things, but, or Friday nights, I'm not going to go over to my mom or dad's house. Instead, we're going to, we're going to go out just the two of us. But if you come up with some sort of a plan that says, this is what we're going to do, as opposed to the other person feeling like I'm never going to get what I need.

44:59It's not fair. And they sit around thinking about those thoughts. Things get worse. Sorry. Like I remember when I was a kid, my dad was super depressed and depression doesn't have like a timeline. And I remember my mom's mom, my grandmother kept telling my mom, just divorce him. And like in front of me, she would always say that. And it really left an impression on me that if you're depressed, there's a chance your wife, girlfriend, partner, whatever, is going to leave you. And the flip side is, of course, is that's the time when couples who are committed to each other should really try to support each other.

45:37But I imagine it's a difficult time for both. It is. And I'll have people that come into my therapy office on the other end of that. And they'll say like, you know, my partner has a problem. It might be a physical health issue, a mental health issue, a substance abuse issue. And they were like, you know, but they're not getting better fast enough. Or maybe the other person's not taking any action at all. And they're like, I married this person, I promised for in sickness and in health, but like, what's my responsibility here? If somebody has a drinking problem for 20 years and nothing has changed, where they're like, do I really have to keep sticking it out longer?

46:09Or do I set up a timeline that says I can only handle this for a certain amount of time? And sometimes that's what people end up doing. Yeah. I mean, really like marriage is not really different from, I mean, this was controversial, but marriage is not really different from being like boyfriend, girlfriend. It's just that it becomes boyfriend, girlfriend in the eyes of the government. And so then there's legal stuff involved. Like it's marriage is just like a, a boyfriend, girlfriend that got legal. And so it's not like you have to stay with the other person, but then, but the flip side is, you know, if you, if you're committed and you want to, you really want to be in a relationship for the rest of your life and build and grow old together, then there's certain obligations to that, that are sometimes difficult.

46:54And I see a lot of people who, because they're legally married, feel like we have to stay together. And sometimes it's practical reasons because I don't have a retirement fund. And after 30 years, like I can't afford to live on my own. Sometimes it's for the sake of the kids or people are like, we're not really compatible, but I'm going to wait till the kids turn 18. Or sometimes it's just a religious where somebody says, you know, my religion doesn't allow me to get divorced. So we're going to stick it out. So for couples who are going to stick it out for whatever reason, like, well, then let's make it the best we can.

47:22And then for other couples who are able to be like, you know, perhaps I picked the wrong partner. Like that's okay too. Like I'm not in favor of saying, you know, you should stick it out no matter what. Sometimes people are just happier when they say, you know, we got married when we were young and now we're different people. Like that's okay too. Yeah. Yeah. And because there's also a stigma just in society to someone who's been married seven times, you would think that there's something wrong with them. Right, right. Exactly. So there might be, but there might not be where just everybody, you know, we do live in a free world and people should do what they want.

47:56Certainly people in today's world, people have been involved in more than seven relationships. But if someone is in seven marriages, we think, oh my God, this person's a horrible person. Right. Yeah. And I think you can only like some states, you can only get married seven times. That's the limit, right? Really? I think so. Is that really true? I know. Right. And the reason I know that is because there's somebody who lives in my community down here. I think he's on marriage number six. So people are joking around with him like you only got one left. Wow. I mean, that's true in Florida. I don't know.

48:25You would think that Florida man is allowed to marry as many times as he wants. We'll have to talk to Dave Barry about that. They don't try to fix each other. Yeah. So of course, not a lot of people come to therapy saying here's what I'd like to work on and I brought my partner just to hold me accountable. Like that doesn't normally happen. When people bring their partner to therapy, it's usually here's my partner and they're a jerk and I need you to be on my side so that you can tell them why they need to change their behavior because I'll be happy if they change. And then sometimes people have gone to great lengths to try to fix the other person.

49:00It might be something small like, ah, my partner's kind of shy, so I like to draw them out of their shell. Maybe your partner's fine with being shy. They don't want to be the most outgoing person in the room. But in other cases, the example I give in the book is a woman who's married to somebody with a serious substance abuse problem. She goes to Great Lakes to try to change his drinking habits, which is something we see often too, where somebody says, you know, my partner's self-destructive or they're hurting themselves and they don't know it. So how do I fix this? And then that's obviously a lot of work and it's really distressing to think that you have to fix somebody else.

49:31It's a lot of work. I remember that example. It's a lot of work and And it's a lot of pain too, because you would like things to be great immediately. Like she says to her husband, you know, I don't want you going to the bar so much after work and being late for dinner and so on. So that's painful. And obviously she would like the next day for him to not to go to the bar, to come home and have dinner with her. And they're laughing and joking and eating well and all's good, but that doesn't happen. So she starts eating dinner by herself and putting leftovers in the refrigerator, not complaining, but just taking actions so she's doing what she's taking care of herself.

50:08And then by him seeing what she was doing, he gradually kind of started to change and so on. But you have to sort of say, okay, I'm going to do this, but for a long time, I'm going to be still unhappy while I do this, because that wasn't her ideal solution either. No, and there's no guarantee like that changing my behavior is going to change my partner's behavior. Of course, that's the hope. And there are an entire like therapy systems like community reinforcement. Family training is one that is based on if you're in a relationship with somebody with substance abuse problem. There's no guarantee.

50:44A lot of people are able to get their partner's behavior to change because basically the more I try to change my partner, the more defensive they get. If I quit trying to change them and I just focus on my behavior, there's a good chance that they'll follow suit. But there's no guarantee of that. And that's tough to do because it means I have to kind of come to that conclusion of I can't control your behavior. I have to deal with all of this discomfort that's going on with me watching you self-destruct or watching you do these things that are really unhealthy. I mean, you've seen so many couples and hopefully you've also seen couples who have been mostly happy and not unhappy.

51:19Like, what do you think are the signs of a really good couple that should stay together no matter what? I think that the couples that can listen to each other and that they can empathize with the other person and that they just really want to know like, okay, what's going on? And even if it's painful to hear, I want you to tell me anyway, like, is there something I do that's difficult or annoying? And for couples who can, I guess, listen to that, talk about it. And then they have that commitment to say, yeah, we're going to stay together. We're going to work through these things. And even though it's hard, I'm not going to abandon you.

51:56I'm going to stay right here. You know, you mentioned something in the book that I thought was really interesting that you say it tends to be that the people who kind of almost brag about their happiness of their relationships on social media too much, those tend to be the unhappiest couples. Like that's obviously just anecdotal, but do you think it's, that's really true? Yeah. And I think there's research behind that one that when people are, people brag about their partner and their relationship online. It's more like they're looking for external validation. Not to say you can't show some happy pictures and talk positively about your partner.

52:32Obviously, you don't want to go on social media and complain about your partner. But the people who do it the most often are looking for validation. Like, see, don't we look happy together? Because perhaps they don't feel like they're in a happy relationship. Otherwise, they wouldn't need that validation from other people. Yeah, I think it's really true. And I was struck by that because just the other day i was thinking about a couple that i knew like 10 years ago and it was a period when i was single and i was asking i was asking this couple what's your i mean it was like i don't know when it was like eight or nine years ago and i was asking them what their checklist was they both said that they had a checklist before they met and eat the other person had really matched that checklist and they're huge they were huge on social media like oh i love her so much i love him so much my life partner and then i just found out i was wondering like whatever happened to that couple.

53:20And just like a month ago, they announced their divorce. And so then I read what you said here and it made me think of that about this couple I had just recently researched. Interesting. Because I think sometimes people get envious of those couples and then you find out, oh, it wasn't perhaps what we thought it was. Yeah, I think I was envious of them. And then it's funny though, because they had built up such a social media presence as a couple, in all the comments, everybody was like, oh, she did it. She was doing something probably like, look how she had changed her clothes in the past six months.

53:54Like everyone was trying to like find everything from like pictures like four months ago and so on. Right, yep. So like everybody gets involved too. If you're going on social media with it, you got to expect the ramifications of that. And we all want evidence of like, I should have seen this coming and here's why, you know? And then you, hindsight is 20-20. So you go back and you pick it apart and you're like trying to connect the dots of like clearly this was going on yeah yeah it's sort of like when someone dies you always want to know uh like why right and like and it's so funny like and on and again this is related to social media on facebook somebody will say oh you know so and so was 26 years old passed away you know funerals at this and they don't say why why would a 26 year old you know die and you know might be when they don't say so you start thinking well it was suicide or something so you want to know well was they were they depressed or did something bad happen to them or did they you know have cancer and so they got depressed from that and you really do like want to know and it's the same thing with couples like you want to know so that it doesn't happen to you so you can say oh phew at least that's not my situation right because they were like or we find out somebody had cancer and you're like did they smoke and then you think well as long as i don't smoke, then I'm good to go.

55:12Right. Um, yeah. Do they live on three, three mile Island or some radioactive area or yeah. So you want to know that it's not, you're fine, but everybody else is having a problem. Um, they don't blame each other for their problems. I think I'm guilty of that quite a bit. As are most people, I think where people are like, you know, we'd be happier if my partner would change. Yeah. Yeah. Or if, Oh, my partner wanted to do this. So I did it, but now I have all these problems or whatever. Yes. I think this one actually maybe is the most important because this one is prescriptive. They don't forget why they fell in love.

55:53Yeah. And like the prescription is, remind yourself why you fell in love and both sides should do that. Right. There's a reason you pick this person. I mean, there's however many people there are on the planet that you've come in contact with and you pick this one person. So there's a reason that you pick them and there's a reason that they picked you. And just keeping that in perspective so that even when you aren't feeling the most loving feelings ever, you're still then motivated to be like, all right, I picked you for a reason and here's why it's still worthwhile to work through these problems that we have.

56:24And you say, I even think you suggest there's research that just looking at photos of your spouse compared with looking at other photos improves feelings of infatuation with your partner. Right, if you made your partner your wallpaper on your phone or you have a little folder on your phone and you just look at their photo throughout the day, like it actually improves how you feel about them. And then when we have more positive feelings about our partner, guess what? We're more tolerant of them leaving their socks in the middle of the floor or we don't get so upset with them when those little things annoy us because we're still remembering.

56:57Yeah, I still have deep feelings for this person. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's really important. They don't expect a relationship to meet all their needs. That's an interesting one too, particularly in this period post COVID where we've all gotten more remote and more isolated. And sometimes the relationship has had to meet more needs than normal. Right. That people I think are depending on their partners more now than ever to be their recreational companion. We're going to, everything fun we do together. And I also need you to be my emotional support. I need you to be the person who's going to build me up or give me business advice, but also the person that's going to let me have independence when I need it.

57:39And you think, wow, we're putting a lot of pressure on somebody to then be that same person that you're going to have a romantic relationship plus a financial relationship, and you're going to build a household together. And you think that's really tough when we put that much pressure on one person. Yeah. They don't neglect their partnership. I think that's, you know, and that's, that's related to the next chapter too. They don't take each other for granted. I think these are common things as well. Like that is very easy to fall into just a routine of neglect. It is. And after people have been together for like 10 or 20 years, they're like, you know, we have more like a business relationship.

58:18And a lot of the people that come into my therapy office, it's not because they fight too much. It's just because they don't really connect anymore. And that boredom tends to kill a lot of relationships, probably more than conflict does. Or people are like, we don't really fight. But on the other hand, we don't really enjoy each other's company. Maybe we get along fine and we manage the household responsibilities or parenting or money. Okay. But it's not like, doesn't really run any deeper than that either. And, and which is related to the next thing, they don't stop growing and changing. And I think you have to do that individually and kind of respect that in the partner, but then coming together at the end of the day to kind of be fascinated by all the growth and change is, is key.

58:58It is. And it's a tricky balance. Like I'm going to grow and change and be a different person. And I want you to still love me in a few years. And I expect you to grow and change as well. But we also need to grow and change together as a couple and make sure that we don't grow apart. So obviously you can't just be the exact same human being that you were when you got together in the first place. Hopefully you do grow and change and learn new things. And as you say, keep each other fascinated and interested in one another over time. And it's a difficult balance sometimes. You know, and all of this begs the question about what should one do in life?

59:30Like there's all this research that loneliness reduces 15 years to your life. It's as if you were like being lonely is equivalent to smoking all your life in terms of lifespan. So you think, okay, well, if I'm married, I won't be lonely, which of course is not always true. Often it's not true at all. So I think there's all these counterbalancing things. Like when should one leave a marriage or relationship? I think once people like lose that desire, like when you don't have any interest in, changing or you've given up all hope that your partner is ever going to change or that you can change anything.

1:00:05The question would be like, why stay? Like, what would be your motivation to stay? And if it's just say financial, maybe there's some other solutions to that. Or if it's just for the kids, like I never met kids who were like, I'm so glad my parents hung in there till I turned 18. That's really not going to happen either. So I see a lot of people that just delay grief. Like, I don't want to be sad and that would be sad. So we're going to stay together for now, but they're not happy. So if you're not actively working on figuring out how to make the best relationship possible, then I'd say it's okay to question like, why am I here?

1:00:36Why am I staying? And what do I really want in life? And plenty of people are probably okay with having a mediocre relationship. And if that's you, all the more power to you. But for people who really want a deeper relationship with somebody, then you need to actively be working on it. Otherwise you're going to end up not getting your needs met either. Yeah. And then, and then life's over. Right. Life is pretty short. But at the same time, it's like what people say, whatever problems you have in one relationship, you're just going to bring into the next relationship. And it's hard to know where your problems are and where the other person's problems are.

1:01:12And I think some of that is true. Yes. When you're in a relationship with somebody, you might then say, I'm also struggling with the same issues in the next relationship. But I don't think that's always the case either. Certain people have the power to bring out different sides of us. Or maybe when you got together with your partner now, you're now 10 years wiser. And so even though you've developed these certain patterns, if you got into a relationship with somebody new, you might not have those same patterns. But obviously, the place to start is to say, you know, if I were to change myself, what would I change?

1:01:41And you can always grow as an individual while you're still with your partner. Particularly if you do the 13 things mentally strong people don't do. Right, right. Or if you don't do those things. And so, you know, If we looked at that, like, yeah, there's always room for improvement in any of us, but I'm going to start with myself rather than being convinced that it's my partner who needs to change.

1:02:15That's good advice to start with yourself. yourself you mentioned though that and I found this to be true basically that couples therapy is a lot about just the couples want approval to divorce yeah that was my I didn't realize that again when I started as a therapist I was like okay I'll see whoever walks in my office and then the first couple that ever came in and they were just they hated each other and there was no doubt about the fact that they hated each other and and they really weren't there to stay together I think they just wanted to know that it was like, we've done everything, right?

1:02:49Like there's nothing we can do, right? And as they're both nodding their heads, and it was probably the only thing they agreed on. And they just wanted to like check it off their list. Yes, we have tried everything, including therapy, and there's no hope for us. So no use in staying together. Why did they hate each other? Like a lot of couples, I think they got together and it was like this heated, passionate relationship. And then when they fought, it was also heated and passionate. and they never worked through the issues. They just argued and yelled and screamed to the point that they weren't communicating unless they were yelling and screaming at each other.

1:03:24Well, definitely, you know, this was 13 Things My Believe Strong Couples Don't Do. This was a great book, but it was really, you know, almost more than a book that is about like individual self-help. This one was more triggering for me because it's like the other people you might have affected with your problems. So it's not just like about me improving. It's that it just reminded me of like all these unhealthy situations from my past. You know, and when you're old enough, you have many unhealthy situations in your past. And so it just, I was thinking of a lot of things while I read this book and all, you know, we only briefly touched on all the stories you mentioned and all the advice you give and so on.

1:04:05Like we just hit the chapter titles, but there was a lot of deep stuff in here that made me think. Thank you. I'm glad. And again, I come by these lists, honestly, they're all mistakes I've made and things I continue to struggle, but also things I've learned along the way of like, all right, there's hope. Yeah, because you've advised a lot of couples, like you're a couples therapist. So you've seen these patterns. Right. And I've seen plenty of people who came in by themselves where they said, you know, my partner won't come in with me. And some of the stories in the book, I never actually met the partner.

1:04:33I only met the person who came into my office and we still made a huge changes. So I wanted people to know, like, even if your partner says, no, I'm never going to couples therapy, you can go by yourself and make some pretty big changes too. Do you ever see the TV show Entourage? No. Because there's quite a few couples therapy scenes in there. I'm just curious, like what couples therapy scenes in movies or TV you felt were good couples therapists, you know, being led by good couples therapists? Well, you know, it's an interesting question. Like I just, there was a TV show built, a reality show filmed in the town that I live in, in Marathon, Florida recently and they had a, it was like a 90 day fiance, one of those spinoffs.

1:05:14And so, and, um, they had these different couples therapists working with all of these couples in a group therapy setting. And I'm like screaming at the TV because it was so not realistic of what couples therapy was where they were like doing group therapy with these couples that had completely different problems and everybody was drinking and they're doing all of these things that would never, ever actually happened in a couples therapist's office. So I knew that that was a terrible example and bad representation of it. But in terms, I don't know if I know any, like, and I don't watch a ton of TV or movies, but what I would say is an example of a good couples therapist.

1:05:49It's accurate. Most of the shows about therapy in general are really inaccurate the way that they portray it on TV. Well, you have so many like potential follow-up articles, like I'm envious of like, you have such a wealth of material in here. Like it's, but it's the beginnings of like a lot of depth that you could then explore in different articles. So you're going to be able to market this for years, this book. Well, good. You've given me hope. Thank you. What's the next one you want to do? Ah, that's a good question too. We've been talking about doing something with business and leadership because my speakers, Vera, want something that has to do with business.

1:06:23But I don't know. I don't know yet what the next one is. And I'm in a great place because usually my readers tell me when they read the first book, they're like, what about kids? So I wrote the parenting book. And then all these women were like, what about women? And so sometimes my readers tell me. A financial one I think is very good because, you know, financial and health are, you know, if you think about it, love, financial, and health are the three most important things because there's a phrase in marketing that you want to, you want to good products to market are ones that help people get paid, get laid, lose weight.

1:07:05So, so it's basically, you know, financial relationships, health and a financial one. I can see because there was, cause I was very unhealthy financially and, and did all the things that mentally strong people shouldn't do. And I could only recover financially when I started doing important, you know, things for my finance. You know, I had to be mentally strong about my finances. So I feel, I feel like that's an important one. I think so too. I think that could be a helpful one for people because money is certainly an issue people talk about in therapy all the time as well. Yeah. Cause it's such an emotional issue.

1:07:44Money, money is just, it's like a replacement for emotions in many cases, you know, and also I want to thank you, because I didn't mention this earlier, but I was having a chess lesson like six months ago and my chess coach and I called you in the lesson to try to figure out like how I wasn't being mentally strong with how either I was learning or competing or whatever. And you spent a good amount of time and then you wrote the 13 things, you know, or the 10 things actually I should do think about in competition and when I was learning and trying to study this thing that's been, you know, that I'm getting back to as I'm older.

1:08:25And I really appreciate the time you spent on that. You're very welcome. Well, I have been thrilled to be able to follow your journey a little bit as you're trying to conquer your chess game. As you grow older, I'm trying to run faster as I get older and to figure out where that tipping point is. I'm too old to keep running faster. And so So I've appreciated your journey in figuring out, like, at what point do you come to the place of acceptance versus when you keep saying, no, it's possible? Well, I wonder, too. I haven't. That point has to happen at some point, I guess. And because, like, some things age.

1:08:59I don't know. There's a lot of particularly because, like, chess is mental. Running is physical. Although, arguably, there's a little bit of mental and running and there's a little bit of physical and chess. Like, you need stamina and so on. and uh uh so you wonder some people say oh age shouldn't play a factor at all and you see people who are 90 years old who run a marathon and you see people who are 80 years old who play chess very well and so there's there's all sorts of things you have to learn and and basically what i've kind of concluded is i have to be a better person in every aspect of my life to be a better person at one aspect of my life.

1:09:38Interesting. If that makes sense. Yeah. So, um, and, and, and, you know, why are you trying to run as fast as possible as opposed to just running? I think it started like, I don't know, I was like in my late thirties and I was like, I wonder how fast I can run a mile. And then I was like, I wonder if I could run it faster than I could when I was like 14. And I did. And then I thought, Hmm. So it just kind of happened. Like, I wonder if I could shave 15 seconds off. What if I could shave another 15 seconds off? And then I thought, well, might as well see exactly how fast I can run. How fast can you run a mile?

1:10:10Like 6.13-ish. Of course, 13 is my lucky number. So you're not going for a four-minute mile. I'm not. I was just going to be happy with six, which when I was a kid, it was like 7.10 or something. And so I thought, all right, if I could shave. And I don't have a coach or anything, and I don't want one. I'm just kind of seeing like on my own. Like, I feel like I could probably shave 13 seconds off if I had somebody who told me my form was terrible. But like, it's fun for me. And I'm afraid if I hire a coach and did it like super seriously, some of the fun might be gone. So I'm just doing it. Well, okay.

1:10:39That's a very interesting point too. Like maybe being relaxed about it helps you. So, so how long, how long has it been since you hit six 13 and you haven't been able to go past six 13? Um, so it was probably a year ago when I hit six 13. A year ago. So a year is a fairly long time to plateau because you're not only trying to go past the plateau, you're, you're, you're running a race against age because at some point you six, 13 probably does get harder in another 10 years, 16, six, 13 might be harder than it is now. That's just a guess. So if you did get a coach, they would instantly identify what parts of your form are off.

1:11:19And then like a week later, you might hit, you know, five 59. It's true. That may be the case. And for some reason, like, I don't want to do it. It's like when I was a little kid, I loved running. So when I was like, we have video of, I think I was probably five and I do a lap around the house and make my mom time me. And then I'm like, here I am at my age, still doing the exact same thing. Right. Basically timing myself to run a mile. And I, and I love it and I don't want to lose the love of it. And maybe I'm being ridiculous by thinking that a coach would make me take the fun out of it. But I mean, if you, if you think it, it's probably true.

1:11:53So, you know, it's the whole thing about arguing for your limitations. If you don't want to have a coach, then don't have a coach. But I have a one intermediate, like one intermediate thing you can do, you know, like in between what you're doing now in a coach is do you videotape yourself in the run? Nope. So maybe you could video yourself running and watch it. And then you could see where you feel like your form is off. Okay. Yeah, you're right. That's probably a middle step. And that might be fun. Would you think that's not fun too? Cause it's taking it too seriously. Um, it might, I don't know.

1:12:24Like it could be interesting. I'm afraid it's like painful. Like, you know how it's kind of, I find it painful to listen back to my podcast. Like I think it would be painful to watch myself run, but like in, in con when I was doing standup comedy, I didn't have a coach, but I would videotape all my comedy sets and watch them later to see, Oh, I said, I'm too much. Or I, I moved, I was moving around the stage in a weird way. I should be more consistent how I'm moving around the stage or, or more planned how I'm doing it. So you, so you might see like just basic things in your form that you could change and then you don't need a coach like that.

1:12:57Then you could just get five 59 and, and, and write the book, you know, or whatever you want to do. And you know, it's ridiculous. Like you knew I got six back abs in 30 days. And like, I had a coach that wasn't, I've been running a, trying to run a time to mile. It's been years, right? Like I've literally done it a thousand times and like, I haven't made any progress yet with a coach. You're racing is similar to my chess in the sense that, and here's where it's similar. You're better than you were at 14, but somehow you haven't achieved this level where you feel satisfied with it. Right, right, exactly.

1:13:29And you think that six minutes will do it and maybe it will. Like it's not the case that, you know, it really just might do it. Like you might be happy with 559 and say, that's it. Right. I'm done. Like I achieved that with comedy. Like I got to a point where I was happy and like I was done. But yeah, but it's interesting what you're willing to do and not willing to do with it. Like the coach takes the fun of it. But that's why the only other thing I can think is, well a watching youtube videos which is like a virtual coach and my guess is you've done that and have you asked like you and i had the same personal trainer and you got six-pack ads robert brace right so did you have you asked him i haven't actually i haven't at all like he used to have me run as part of my my training but it was just more about can you keep up with the speed on a treadmill like sure but i mean i'm sure he would have advice about it but you don't even and And you talk to him.

1:14:21Right. I should probably ask him, huh? But there's a reason why you have it. Right, right. And it's like I'm a therapist. I'm supposed to know why I do certain things. But something about it, like it's almost a joke on social media every day. I post like, going to try again for the billionth time. Ha ha, didn't do it. And I'm okay with not doing it. Yet at the same time, I'm like, I get to do something tomorrow. I get to try again. Maybe because when you hire a coach, it makes the commitment more real. Maybe. Like that now you, once you hire a coach, now it's possible for you to fail. Right. And that, I wonder if that's it.

1:14:55Like, I'm not afraid of like doing it, but I'm afraid of like, what if I really tried my hardest even with a coach and then I found out I couldn't do it? Maybe that's what I'm afraid of. Yeah, because then you disappoint not only yourself, but the coach. Right. And you don't want to disappoint another person with your issue. Right. And, but that's why I'm saying, so maybe it might be okay to videotape yourself. Yes, there's that discomfort of watching yourself on camera, which nobody likes to do. But then at least you're not bringing another person. You're not bringing in an accountability partner that's going to be disappointed if you don't succeed.

1:15:30And it would be interesting now as an experiment to see if at least... So it's been a year since you hit 6.13. It'd be interesting now as an experiment to see what things you can add to your routine that will get you to 6.12 at the very least. Because now you've plateaued for a year. there's two issues. One is achieving the goal of less than six minutes. The other is breaking free of your plateau. Right. Cause that's an annoying thing. Like, oh, you always want to see improvement. So, so it might be, uh, and I'm sure you've, I mean, I know how much you, you take seriously diet and exercise and so on.

1:16:07Uh, I couldn't get the six pack and three abs with the same personal trainer and I couldn't do what you did. And so maybe though, I mean, the only thing I think that you can add is this videotaping your run. Because again, you've probably done all the diet things, the sleep things, the exercise things. You're probably in great shape to do it. Do you know other women your age who can run faster than a six minute mile? I don't. So you haven't joined like any kind of Facebook groups about running or things like that? Nope. So that's really interesting because you're obviously really interested in it.

1:16:47Right. And this is like, I would definitely have tried to figure out anything to A, get past the plateau and B, get the goal. I would have done anything. I know. It's a strange thing, right? And like normally in anything else in my life, like I would study it, I would read it, I would do it. But there's something about this. Like, I don't know if it's like I just want to do it on my own or again, like it's fun. Like I thoroughly enjoy it, but I guess like. Do you get something out of not succeeding? Maybe, maybe I just enjoy it. Like, you know, I don't want to crush every goal because then I'd have nothing to look forward to.

1:17:23So perhaps I'm like, I'll get something to do tomorrow. I don't know. Yeah. Like, are you afraid you'll stop running if you hit past six minutes? Maybe like in every day, I'm like, today's the day. And I'm always like, it's like a joke with everybody who sees me running too. But like, and again, I find it fun and I'm not upset when I don't hit the goal. I'm just like, ah, today wasn't today, maybe tomorrow. But see, the fact that you're not upset when you don't hit the goal does tell me it's not about the goal. So because you would be upset if you didn't hit the goal. Right. Like you should be.

1:17:56Right. Otherwise, you're not it doesn't you don't care that much. Right. And so it's a strange it's a strange thing, because, again, in every other area of my life, like if I decide I want to do something and do it really, really well, like I'll put in all the effort to get there. And this one, I'm like, I'm trying really hard and doing it every day. But I don't know. I just like the running and I think it's fun. And maybe it's just the challenge and the joy of attempting it, knowing it probably isn't going to happen today deep down. And enjoying the self-deprecating social media posts and the community around that that you probably get.

1:18:29You know, you probably enjoy that a lot. Yeah, and maybe it's something like just really easy to fail at too. If I know, you know. like you're you're you're you're the way you think of yourself doesn't change right if you fail every day like you don't say oh i'm the unhealthiest person in the world because you you don't think that because you know you're incredibly healthy anyway so uh and society is not valuing you differently if you go from six minutes and 13 seconds to under six minutes right so it's interesting it is it's strange and people will always be like amy why don't you you know get a fitness watch and do this.

1:19:06And people, a lot of people, some guy in a walker last week was offering me advice as I like ran past him, but like, so I get a lot of unsolicited advice too. And people are like really cheering me on, which is cool. But yeah, no, I think, uh, well, this makes me think, do you think you'll write a book at some point? You're a great writer. So you think you'd write a book at some point about something other than 13 things mentally strong X don't do? Yeah, I do. I don't think this will be like the chicken soup for the soul with million books in the series. I do think one of these days, hopefully I'll reach out and have a different book too.

1:19:38Yeah. Maybe I can, I can see runners high and you're, you're what you get from running. Well, you know, then that reminds me of Haruki Murakami's book. What I think about, what I think about when I think about running. Do you know that book? So he's a great, you know, a Japanese novelist. He's written 20 or so novels. He's probably a front runner for the Nobel Prize in literature every day. Like he's currently Japan's most respected and revered novelist. I probably read everything he writes. And, but he also, early on in his career, he was a translator for Raymond Carver, who was a famous short story writer in the US, who his most well-known story is what we talk about when we talk about love.

1:20:24And so Murakami wrote a book something like what I think about or what I talk about when I talk about running. And so a play off on that. And it was kind of his autobiography in a weird way, but he's also an obsessive runner and writer. And so he talks a lot about running in that book. And I don't know, I was just curious if you had read that. But that's essentially his version of what you're going through right now. Interesting. And how it interweaves with, how running interwove with all the changes in his career and his life and so on. So, and what he got out of it. And so it'd be interesting to explore like what you're getting out of it and what your true goals are here.

1:21:09Because you always have, I always notice with you, you do have something that you're going for, but it just might be unclear what you're going for here. Right. Right. Yeah. And I don't know. It's a strange one, but I don't have the, I don't have all the answers for this one for sure. Yeah, that's good. It's good not to have all the answers. There is that too. And being okay with that. I don't have all the answers to some things in my life and I'm not okay with it. Right. Which is why I brought you onto that, that chess one. By the way, and this is, we're still in the podcast, but Avatik wants to know if you want to go on his podcast.

1:21:39So I'll reintroduce you guys. Yes. Thank you. I would love to be on his show. Yeah. And good luck again, marketing this one. I really think this is, I mean, all your books are great. This one really touched me, the 13 Things Mentally Strong Couples Don't Do, just as much as 13 Things Mentally Strong People Don't Do. And again, all your books are great, but I think these, for me personally, these had the most effect because 13 Things Mentally Strong Kids Don't Do, I don't really, I don't care as much. I'm not a kid anymore. I think about my kids, but they're on their own now. So they got to find these things for themselves.

1:22:22But thank you, Amy. You've been on the podcast like 10 times, I feel. We've even talked about how to start a jewelry business on the side. So I always appreciate you being around and being on the podcast and consider you a good friend. And I look forward to the next time we get together. Me too. Thank you, James. Thank you.

1:22:45Thank you.

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