The Power of Quests | James is Interviewed by Amy Morin

27:10and I've met hundreds and hundreds of people now. And also I've had to become kind of like in training. I had to watch my diet better. I completely stopped all drinking. I have to sleep eight or nine hours a day. I've really been training. I have to exercise a lot more. I've been training like an athlete to make sure I have the stamina that younger people do. So when it comes to chess, how is this one different than a goal? Do you not have like an end goal for this? Are you just experimenting to see how far you can get? No, I think my end goal would be to, I mean, I probably wouldn't stop with this, but I do want to see if I can get back to the ranking I was before.

27:59So, but even exploring like, what does that mean to be better than you were before? Like every sport, every game evolves over time. So you compare the best tennis player now, for instance, to John McEnroe, who was the best tennis player in 1980. John McEnroe was this skinny little guy because weightlifting didn't have as much importance in tennis as it does now. And it's the same thing in chess, actually, even with the weightlifting part. But chess itself, the training in it has improved. So as an example, this guy, Peter Nielsen, who is the coach of the best player in the world, Magnus Carlsen, he said to me, maybe you are now better than you were, but the whole world has gotten much better.

28:43So you don't really know. And so this caused me to think about, how we measure success in things. And also, it's funny, the whole younger people play chess now than played when I was younger. So they have so much more stamina like kids. And they study with computers. They grew up with computers. I didn't grow up with computers. So I had a different way of playing. And I have to learn completely new things as if I had never played the game before. And so it's not just a goal though. It's a quest because it's okay for me to not succeed. It's not that the journey is the important part and the goal is not important.

29:28The goal is very important, but it's just what I'm learning along the way, like about myself and how I'm improving, how I'm becoming the kind of person who could achieve this quest that is beneficial in my life. I mean, I was talking to Robert Greene, you know, Robert Greene, he wrote 48 Laws of Power. And he keeps telling me like, oh my God, James, this is going to be such a great book when you write this. And I said to Robert, but you know, I'm kind of failing at it. Like I'm not, I'm not at that level that I thought I would be. And he's like, what are you talking about? You succeeded beyond so many expectations in this.

30:08You think you're 20 years old and you're, and you're trying to be 20 years old. That wasn't the goal to be 20 years old. The goal was to try, not necessarily a goal, but you were trying to do something and it's how you've changed as a person and how you change in terms of dedication and consistency and resilience, like all of these things, he said, I want to hear about and experience what you went through. And everybody who loves something at a later age and pursues it wants to know not necessarily that you succeeded, but just what happened along the way. And as this guy said, maybe I am better.

30:51I kind of think I am better than I was when I was younger. Oddly, I have played individual tournaments at a much higher level than when I was younger, but I've also played worse tournaments than I've ever played before. So my variance, this might be an age thing, my variance has gotten a lot bigger. And so that's why it's hard to tell. Interesting. Right. I never thought of that with chess, that you can't really tell if you are better. It's not like you can go back and play against 20-year-old James. Well, there's a ranking system. And so my rank is not, my rating is not as high as it was. And yet I've had what's called performance ratings, which are what's your rating for a specific tournament or period of time.

31:35I've had performance ratings much higher than I've ever had before, but also much lower than I've ever had before. So sometimes I literally play like an old man. Like I'll just make a move that even when I just learned the rules, I never would have made. And it's so stupid I make now. But other times I play brilliant. So... And how will you decide when to be done? Like, how did you decide when to be done comedy? How do you think you'll decide? I didn't love it anymore. Okay. Yeah. Like, at some point, I loved comedy. I was studying it, like, literally maybe five, six hours a day and then going and performing it.

32:14So I'd watch comedians, I'd write. And it really improved my writing too. and improve my public speaking. Like the skills you learn doing comedy is like public speaking times 100. It's incredible. And then all of a sudden, it's like a switch flipped and I had no desire to do it anymore. Really? Okay. And so if this quest with chess stops being fun, would you just do the same thing? Yeah, I would just stop. Yeah. But I just really love it. Right now, every day I wake up and I love it. And, you know, I had a quest, you know, the quest that changed, every quest has changed my life. But like in the early 90s, I had a quest.

32:55I wanted to be, I wanted to write a novel. And so I started getting obsessed. I wrote 3 ,000 words a day. I read every day. I really wanted to do it. And I was, I wrote four novels. I wrote dozens of short stories. I sent them all out to get published. Probably got over a thousand rejection letters. And I did this for like 10 years. or maybe like six years before anything got published at all. And 10 years before I got paid to write anything. And sometimes, but I just loved it the whole time. Like I just love writing and it became part of my life. And do you think most people are like that, that they'll fall in love with something for a little while and do it?

33:37Or you think you're an anomaly? Well, you know, like you're on, we talked earlier, you're on a quest to run a faster mile. Like, you know, do you think you're an anomaly? You know, I don't know. Because I, like, I suspect most people probably could fall in love with random things too. And maybe just a lot of people don't do it, right? Maybe they don't experiment enough. They don't try. They don't think that they have time or they talk themselves out of it. That's what I'm going to guess. I think a lot of people talk themselves out of it. Like, let's say every time you cook, Let's say you rarely cook, but when you do cook, you just love it.

34:15You just think, oh my God, this is so much fun. And I love eating people and seeing the reactions on their faces. And you could think to yourself, oh, I'd like to be a great chef or just get better at it and learn maybe a bunch of different cuisines or learn how to make sushi or whatever. And you don't have to be obsessive, but it still could be very life-fulfilling to pursue it. Or for instance, one time I bought a lot of, this is a random thing. I bought in an auction a lot of forged artworks. So I have artwork hanging all over my house right now where there's like a Picasso, Andy Warhol, Salvador Dali, Jackson Pollock.

35:03And you would think, I mean, these are excellent forgeries. Like they're signed by the artist and it couldn't be the case that a single artist did all that. There's a Banksy. I have like a British stop sign with Banksy-like stuff on it. And I don't even know for sure if they're all forgeries, but I'm assuming they are because I got them for nothing. And, but like exploring this, like wondering if these are forgeries or not, I really dived into the history of what was going on in the period of each artist and why did they do this, why did they do that. And so having even a small quest, that was like a mini quest, and you learn so much about history and life and excellence and the pursuit of excellence.

35:51And all that ties into success in whatever your career is and so on. And I just think being excited about things does keep you young. Because, okay, what if I didn't play in, what if I didn't have these chess training sessions every week and talk to these sports coaches and you and nutritionists and travel the world meeting these amazing people to learn more about what I'm trying to achieve in this quest? What if I didn't do that? What if I just stayed home and watched TV? That's fine too. No judging that. And my kids are older. I could do a little more of these things. But I think my life is richer for it, for having these conversations with people and really putting myself out there.

36:46It's not pleasant to... The last tournament I played in, it's called the US Masters. So Masters only. And because I was ranked a master when I was younger, once a master, always a master in terms of the rating system. And so I'm playing in the U.S. Masters, but I was the weakest player in the whole tournament. And I amazingly, it was very possible. I told Avatek, my coach, it's possible for me to lose all nine games. And he said, don't say that. That's negative mindset. And so I've been learning a lot more about mindset, by the way, and trying to train my mindset to be a little more positive. But amazingly, I won the first game against a strong professional player, stronger than any player I'd ever beaten when I was younger.

37:27And then the second round, I had to play the 14-year-old Alice Lee, who's the most amazing prodigy in the US right now. She's 14 years old, but looks like she's nine. And she's really strong rated. She might be as strong as Avatik right now. And I had a good game. I was doing better and I was proud of the decisions I was making. and then, and she was almost looking bored. Like I think her pull plan was she just knew, okay, he has a good game now, but eventually he's not gonna, he's just gonna make some mistake and I'm gonna win, which is what happened. And there's a picture of me that a guy, a professional photographer took where it looks like I'm practically crying and she's just sitting there looking as bored as possible.

38:15And, you know, it's just, why do I put myself through that? It was very painful to lose to a 14-year-old kid. But again, you learn about yourself. It's a safe way to practice failure and defeat and strategy and confidence and mindset. It's safe. My life is not over if I lose that game. I don't lose money if I lose that game. I can still support my family and live my life the next day. But at the moment, it's very depressing when that happens. Yeah, that's an interesting point, though, is if you're going to have a quest to make it something where there's not something huge at stake, right? You're not going to do something where if it doesn't go well, then life is ruined.

39:02But if it's just for fun and it's just a matter of saying, you know, I'm going to try this and experiment and see if it works. And if it's fun, I'll keep going. In fact, the last time I talked to you, we were talking about why don't you just hire a trainer, Amy, to teach you how to run a six-minute mile? like you're close, but if you hired somebody who could probably tweak something. And I was really thinking about that afterward because I'm really resistant to hiring somebody. And I think it's because it wouldn't be fun anymore. Like I'm like, I feel like I can run a six minute mile and it's just a matter of tweaking something probably mentally.

39:33And since I'm supposed to be the mental strength person, I'm like, all right, there's got to be some mindset tricks or something. And I'm afraid of it not being fun anymore. So that's why I don't want to hire a coach and I didn't want to like do serious training. I don't think you're afraid of it not being fun because let me just address that for a second. Then I'll address why I really think you're not hiring a trainer. Okay. All right. Because I think you just revealed it, but I think it would be fun because A, you would do it. So, I mean, once you had a trainer, the trainer would really improve you.

40:05Like a coach is essential for every sport and athletic activity and game and any discipline, mathematics, a teacher is needed, a professor is needed. Very few people can, let's say, get to PhD level by themselves in an intellectual discipline. That's not totally true, but it's that basic idea. And also, I think a teacher would tell you things about running. How long in your life have you been a runner? I'd say four years at this point. Right. So a teacher would say individual sentences about running and you'd be like, oh my gosh, I never thought that about running or the body or whatever. They would say something that there's some subtleties about running that they know about, which is why they teach it.

40:54They know things. There's a gap between what your knowledge is about running and what their knowledge is. So they would teach you things. They would say like, you know, the most important thing bone is the wrist. And you would think like, what the heck? Why would it be the wrist? And I'm just making this up. I'm not, it's probably not. But you would learn something that would be amazing. And you would learn these subtleties that would deepen your love and respect for running. So when you watch other people run, you would notice, oh yeah, that's what my teacher was saying. That's what that person is doing.

41:24You would see new things. Like if I just look at a painting and I don't know anything about art history, I have a different experience than someone who is immersed in art history and sees all the subtleties. They can have a deeper appreciation of a piece of art or a piece of music or anything. Like my dad was a music composer. And when he listened to music, it's like classical music was boring to me. And he would listen and he would try to explain to me, this is the sonata structure and this, this, this. And so there's all these subtleties that he was able to appreciate. So I think you would enjoy it more with a teacher because you would have a deeper appreciation for this thing you love doing.

42:04The reason I think you don't do it is because like what you said, you're supposed to be the mental strength person. So you're really not on a quest to achieve this mile in a certain speed, but to achieve it using Amy Morin's mentally stronger techniques. Right, right. So far, I'm close, but I'm not quite there. Which is the beauty of a quest. They always got close to the holy grail, but they never got it.

42:55Thanks. Have a good one. Yep, that too. Want one place to manage all your online and in-person sales? That's kind of our thing. Wherever you sell, businesses that grow, grow with Shopify. Sign up for your$1 a month trial at shopify.com slash listen. Shopify.com slash listen.

43:15And I think part of that is just that, like, you know, I don't really care if I never run a six. My life will never change whether I run a five and a half minute mile or 10 minute mile, like life's still the same. But you want to do it. It's not like you're not trying to do it. You do want to do it. Yeah, like it would be cool to do it. But like every day I'm done work, I'm like, okay, I'm going to go run as fast as I can. Then I'm done with it. And I think, you know, not today, maybe tomorrow. And I like that. And people are like, why would anybody like to just go run as fast as you can? For whatever reason, like I loved it when I was a little kid.

43:49We have like video of me when I was four and I'd like make my mom time me. I'd run like a lap around the house and make her time me. So I've been doing this since I was a little kid. I didn't run for most of my life and time myself in adulthood. But then when I did, I was like, I just want to see if I can do it faster than I could when I was like 13 or 14, which started as the original goal. And it's kind of grown over time, but. So you almost feel like you're cheating if you have a trainer. I think so, right. So I just, I guess for me, I think it would take, like, I get that I would learn about it, but I also think it would take some of the fun out of it.

44:20Like, I don't want to spend eight hours doing hill sprints on a Saturday or anything. I'm just like, at the end of the day, I just want to run as fast as I can and check the watch today. And see, part of the reason I like having a trainer is A, when I was younger, I had a trainer. And so I'm just repeating what I did then. But also in my last book, Skip the Line, I wrote about when you want to learn something, you get a plus minus equal. So a plus is someone better than you, a trainer or coach to teach you, equals people who are at your level that you share your experiences with and you learn from each other.

44:54And a minus, someone you can teach. So all these things, and the reason you want to teach someone is because you don't fully understand something unless you can explain it simply. And so all these things I put into place as soon as I decided, okay, I'm going to get back to this level of chess. I got myself plus, minus, equals.

45:15And pluses in various levels. Like again, not just chess coaches, but other types of coaches. And so for me, it's a different type of quest. Your quest is specifically to do it with your own mental strength and your own raw abilities like you did when you were 13. So, you know, that's like, these quests could be like informally structured. And, but it's just, it's something that makes us happy and it's something that we have to become at some point a better person, a better version of ourselves to achieve the quest or as part of that process. You know, if you regularly start running that faster mile, something has moved up in your health probably or in the way you do things.

46:06And you learn from the experience. So there's all these benefits. And I do think it's exciting. Like if you were to run a faster mile, you would be very happy about it. Right, right. And then I'd probably move the bar, you know? Yeah. Or change, have a different quest. Right. So how do you suggest people find it? If somebody's like, you know, I don't really know what my quest would be. How can people figure out what to make their quest? It's really interesting because I think it happens a lot by accident. Like I didn't play chess for 25 years. Why didn't I do it at any time then? Or I didn't do stand-up comedy the first 40 years of my life.

46:45Why did suddenly at 40, whatever, I start doing it? Um, I think it kind of happens. I think we collect over time, all these things that we say, you know, I'd like to try that. And then we forget about it. And, or, you know, or, uh, you know, I always, when I was eight years old, I always loved basketball. I wonder if, you know, I don't even pay attention anymore. Maybe I should do a fantasy based basketball league or whatever. Like there's all these things that we collect in our heads of things that we might want to do or could do or maybe we would want to do. And so one idea is to, I'll give a couple ideas.

47:21One idea is list all of the things like every year of your life, what were you fascinated by? So when you were six years old, did you love reading about astronauts? When you were seven, did you love superheroes? When you were eight, did you love sewing or painting or whatever? Just list them and see if anything kind of rings a bell now or just try it now and see how you feel about it. Or go to like a class or a club or whatever, a meetup where everybody's sewing or just see how it feels. And another idea is go to the bookstore and just find, just walk around. and is there any section where you stop and you suddenly want to read all of the books in that section?

48:10Like, let's say it's the World War II. Do you want to read all the books in the World War II history section? And it just fascinates you. Well, then just do it and maybe write your own alternative timeline of World War II. Like, what could have happened? Like, with any one subject, there's millions of types of quests within that subject that you could do. You know, like, for instance, I mentioned basketball. Okay, if you're 50 years old, you're not going to be a professional basketball player or even be close to how good you were when you were 20. But maybe you can be the best at fantasy baseball or maybe you can be the best at writing articles about basketball or coach.

48:50Like Joe, I'm forgetting his name. He was the CEO of Ameritrade. He's been on my podcast. So this guy was the CEO of Ameritrade, CEO of banks and billion-dollar companies for 40 years. And then he quit. And what did he do? He became an assistant coach, I think, of the University of Nevada football team for free. He offered to do it for free. And then he learned and he rose up and eventually he became coach of the East Carolina Panthers or in some like minor league of football. And then he was a professional coach for a while and then retired from that. And, you know, all of a sudden, he played football when he was a kid, but all of a sudden he had this obsessive urge and he had the money and the security and whatever to quit his job and volunteer to be an assistant coach.

49:40But this was his dream, he pursued it. Other people might quit and start a food truck and they don't want to do a whole restaurant but a food truck allows them to have that restaurant kind of feeling. So there's always ways given a subject to pursue it. Could be a gambler and pursue basketball that way. There's thousands of different ways. So I could have built some kind of chess-related business or written articles about chess or something instead. But instead, I wanted to see if I could play again. And then I was thinking a third way. A lot of times, I read something and whatever it is, The storytelling is good and it matches some deep hidden desire inside myself that I become obsessed.

50:35I didn't start day trading until I read a book about day traders. And I was like, wow, this combines my interest in investing and computers and games. Because day trading is essentially a game. And then unfortunately, for about eight years, I became a day trader. and it was the worst eight years of my life. But that was a quest.

51:01So anything can trigger that like... Or you watch a TV show that was about pilots and you're like, wow, I'm going to take pilot lessons. And then you become on a quest to get higher and higher certifications in piloting. And then I don't even drive a car and I've had pilot lessons and considered becoming a pilot. But fortunately, I don't even drive a car, so it's probably best I don't do that. But, you know, I think you're right. I think if we all had quests that we were working on, again, whether it's like, I just want to paint one painting a month or I want to keep painting stuff until I sell something on my online store or whatever somebody develops.

51:44I don't know if there's research on how good that is for our mental health, but I can only imagine that it's got to be great for people to have something to do that doesn't really have a clear purpose of like, I'm doing this just to earn X amount of dollars, or I'm doing this to better the world. Instead, it's something that I love to do, and I'm going to allow myself to do it. And by the way, it might turn into something you make millions of dollars with. You just never know. Right. But like, and you can have mini quests. Like, did I ever tell you this story, my Greenland story? Oh, I know. I think I know the Greenland story.

52:18So like one time I was hanging out on Twitter, like one does. And Donald Trump, this is when he was president, he tweets out, I want to buy Greenland. Just tweets out, I want to buy Greenland. I'm like, what the heck? And then the prime minister of Denmark responds and says it's not for sale. And these two tweets like literally drove me insane. Like you can offer to buy a country just on Twitter like that. and what does Denmark have to do with Greenland? It turns out Denmark owns Greenland and they just did an entire mini negotiation right there on Twitter, like where Denmark said no and Trump couldn't buy Greenland.

53:01So I started looking into this and I'm like, there's a reason you would want to buy Greenland. Greenland, by the way, is that if it was its own country, which I always thought it was, it would be the highest suicide rate country in the world. and there's a lot of problems with alcoholism there and people are cold and lonely there. But Greenland, after China, is the biggest source of rare earth minerals. And there's a company even like Green Earth, sorry, Greenland Minerals Company, and it's owned by China. So Denmark has basically sold all these mineral rights to China for the rare earth minerals in Greenland.

53:37So that's why Trump wanted to buy it for America so he didn't have to depend on China. And so I figured, you know what? I want to do an experiment. And this is like a mini quest. I started a Kickstarter to raise$100 million to buy Greenland. And actually, it ended up being an Indiegogo Kickstarter rejected me, or a GoFundMe, one of those. And I offered like, oh, you could be a Duke if you give like$1 ,000. You could have a holiday named after you. If you give so much, you could have some thousand acres. You give so much. And I started, and it was an experiment. A, I had never used any of these crowdfunding platforms before.

54:21So I learned about that. And then it was also an experiment in writing. Like, you know, writing, it's usually one or two formats. You write in the third person or the first person, very rarely the second person. Sometimes people write articles in the form of letters back and forth to people. it's called the epistolary style. So there's all these kind of points of view you can write from. Well, I wanted to write an article as if I was doing a crowdfunding campaign about the subject of the article. So I'm basically able to describe this whole scenario with Greenland, like why someone would want to buy it by writing in the form of doing a crowdfunding.

55:03And then so many people were actually donating money to this that GoFundMe or Indiegogo, whoever it was, they shut me down because they knew I was just joking around and they didn't want to have to pay all the credit card fees once they returned all the money. So, but that was like a mini quest. Can I buy Greenland? I remember that because I remember seeing that going around social media and I was like, oh, what is James up to now? Yeah, and I learned so much about it. It took a weekend. It was a weekend long quest. It wasn't like this thing now that I'm in that's years or whatever. And at the very least, I learned all about crowdfunding.

55:43Not all, but I learned about crowdfunding. I experimented with another style of writing. I learned all about Greenland to the point where I still want to visit there. And I have a story to tell. So that's like the minimum benefits of a weekend long quest. And a longer quest, there's so many more benefits. It's ridiculous. So I like that. So if we don't want to spend the next four years working on a quest, just take a weekend and you can probably test something out or see how it works. Yeah, like if you want to do, if you always wanted to do stand-up comedy, it's really hard to do it that first time because it's scary.

56:19Everybody is scared. I saw a little documentary of Will Smith wanting to do stand-up comedy. This guy has been a performer all his life. Not only just an actor where, you know, you read lines written by other people, but he's a musician, he was a rapper. And, you know, that was his start was as an entertainer. but he was scared to death of doing stand-up comedy. He was terrified. And Dave Chappelle was his coach. He got Dave Chappelle to coach him on how to do it. And he did it and he did a pretty good job. And, but that was just a, that was his quest for one time, like a mini quest. I love that.

56:54Great idea. So I think Skip the Line will help people also figure out more about your micro skill idea and things like that. And we'll link to your podcast in the show notes. because everybody should go listen to the James Altucher. So any place else we should send people so they can learn more about you and your work? No, that's good. Yeah, eventually I'll write about this. And the funny thing is, I don't know whether to write about this in the form of like, okay, this is my chess journey or really make it like this bigger thing about quests. I'm feeling like the bigger thing about quests is better.

57:27I almost don't want to do another choose yourself kind of book. I really want this to be more story-driven. That one was story-driven too, but this one's even more story-driven. Well, you know, I guess whichever one you do, I look forward to reading about it. And as long as you share the story of how this is all going with chess so we can follow along, that will be fun. Do you think there's a book there if I never achieve the rating I want to achieve? Yeah, yeah, definitely, right? Because I think sometimes we want to be like, how do you feel about never getting there? And if you don't ever get there, like, are you really okay with that?

58:01Or when did you decide to throw in the towel and say, all right, enough's enough. I think all of that would make for an interesting book. What's really interesting is how much the brain has changed since I was younger. And people say, oh no, that's just a mindset thing. But it really is like memory is not as good. Your raw, like fast intelligence, like your ability to think quickly is evaporated. And you have to actually learn the subtleties in order to be better now. I have to learn why certain moves were made. Before I would just make the moves. Now I have to learn why. And that's been the hard part for me in this.

58:42And it's interesting. Well, we appreciate that you're going to share the story so we can all learn from it. James Altucher, thank you so much for being on Mentally Stronger. Thank you for having me. And I feel mentally stronger always when I talk to you, Amy. So thank you so much. Glad to hear it. Welcome to The Therapist Take. Let's break down James's mental strength-building strategies. Here are three of my favorite strategies that he shared. Number one, create your own quest. When thinking about a quest, you might imagine something that involves a lifelong journey. But James switches quests whenever he wants, from anything like comedy to chess.

59:24And you can always develop a mini-quest, too. Like in his case, it was trying to buy a foreign country one weekend. but I hear from so many listeners and readers who say they're kind of bored with life. So I think this could be a great solution. You can feel like you're still growing and learning and doing something fun without all of the pressure that you might feel when your sole purpose is to do something that involves earning money or when you're so focused on the outcome that you forget to enjoy the process. Number two, pay attention to what you're learning along the way. James talks about how his skills from one area of his life translate to other areas, something that's really tough to recognize sometimes.

1:00:12But when you step back and think about what you're learning, it might become clear how your quest is helping you in what seems like a completely unrelated area of your life. Learning the art of Chinese cooking might also teach you to be more patient with your kids. Or setting out on a quest to learn about your family history could help you become better at asking questions, which might help you ask better questions at work so that you can do your job better. Connecting some of those dots can give you confidence and help you feel better about your quest. And number three, change your quests as needed So the pressure's off because you don't necessarily need a lifelong quest.

1:00:58Shift it as needed. James says he stops doing a quest once it's no longer fun, and then he finds another one. So don't feel like you need to stick with your quest forever or that you need to decide on a single thing that you're going to keep doing year after year. I love the idea of exploring with a bunch of different things to see what you love or to discover what you might want to do. and every time I talk to James I just get inspired to try new things so I guess my task now is to probably come up with another quest in my own life so those are three of James' strategies that I highly recommend create your quest pay attention to what you're learning along the way and change quests as often as needed if you want to hear more from James check out his podcast The James Altucher Show Thank you for hanging out with me today and for listening to the Mentally Stronger podcast.

1:01:54If you like the show, leave us a review on Apple or Spotify. That's one of the best ways to help us get our show in front of other people so we can make the world a stronger place. If you want more tips on building mental strength, subscribe to Mentally Stronger Premium. You'll get weekly bonus episodes and exclusive extras for being a premium subscriber. Sign up at mentallystronger.supercast.com or just click on the link in the show notes. And if you know somebody who could benefit from learning more about mental strength, share this show with them. Simply sharing a link to this episode could help someone feel better and grow stronger.

1:02:31And as always, a big thank you to my show's producer, whose quest seems to involve making things possible that once seemed impossible, Nick Valentine.