The Secret to Overcoming Impossible Odds | Mike Massimino

28:54And this is after achieving like a PhD, which is normally like a big life goal for people. And there's a story in the book that reminds me that kind of this process of improvement and excellence never ends. And it's the conversation between Alan Bean and Pete Conrad that you described. And I just thought that was a great conversation because it shows how you're not at the end goal just because you got in the space program. Like Alan Bean, he had to step up and keep improving. And that's in part because of this conversation. He was the last person in his class to go into space. You know, it was interesting.

29:30Yeah, I think it was a reminder that, and I sometimes speak about this in the talks that I give, that you mentioned all the goals, the PhD, becoming an astronaut, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. But all that stuff took perseverance. Let's say, you know, finishing the PhD and becoming an astronaut, those are two big things, right? getting picked. And when I remember when I showed up at work, all of us had a, had a path to get there that was filled with, uh, obstacles and hard work and good fortune too, at times, no things working out, but you still hadn't done anything. And when you get that, that position, when you reach that goal, now you're in a position, I think, to put it to good use.

30:14And if all of a sudden you change your attitude about things and say, ah, you know, I'm an astronaut now, I don't need to work hard anymore and you know let all the let all the accolades come you know that's the kiss of death as soon as you feel um entitled to anything uh or you lose your your passion or your willingness to sacrifice all the things that got you to that great position that is what's going to be required to be successful moving forward and as mad as i was at myself for messing up on that spacewalk when I look back at it now, you know, it all turned out okay. You know, the ground came through and we were able to fix the instrument.

30:53You know, working together, they came up with a solution. But what helped me through that was not that I was the best spacewalker or engineer, but that I wasn't going to give that up. Just like I wasn't going to give up my dream to become an astronaut or my PhD when I failed my qualifier or any of these other things that happened, I wasn't about to give up on that spacewalk. It was just unthinkable. And so I think that that's a characteristic that can be very, very helpful. And I think once you slip into the thought that I don't have to work that hard or, you know, this is easy now, or that's where I think you got to question your thought process and maybe rethink what you're doing.

31:28Because that's where I think you're susceptible to not doing a good job and not being successful. So it's interesting then because do you ever think or did you ever think when, so you left the space program in 2014 and you had a path for yourself, like you became Columbia professor. serve we'll talk about some of these other things in a little bit but did you ever think okay well my the best part of my life is done the peak performance of my career and and life my lifespan on this planet is is over yes no I think it was no I remember hearing Michael Collins the Apollo uh 11 command module pilot and I remember he was saying not not that your life is over but But he said a very interesting, I've heard him say it a few times, that he realized that the most interesting job he was ever going to have in his life, he had when he was in his 30s, you know, when he went to the moon, right?

32:21He was probably, I don't know how old he was when he went to the moon. Neil Armstrong, I know, was 38. So Michael was probably around that age. He's gone now, unfortunately, past a couple years ago. But a great guy, one of my childhood idols who I got to meet, just a wonderful guy, very humble. And I remember him saying that. Before I was an astronaut, I first heard him say it. And I think that that's okay. If you can have a job like an astronaut, like being, and I talk about that in the book too, like it sort of defines you in certain ways that this was a wonderful job and it may not, I may not be able to top it, but I think that that's okay.

32:56But now being 10 years away from it, so I did think that, you know, I'll never match this and so on. But what I did find in my years, it's been now nine years since I left NASA. nearly 10 now, I felt like I feel now that I kind of had, have found something with my teaching and the writing of the book and speaking and television appearances and other things that still allows me to be part of the space program. And I find it very fulfilling. And in some ways, it's a lot less stressful. And it's, you know, it's not as dangerous, hopefully, James. So there are, you know, there are some advantages to it, but I think that it's, when you have a great job like I had, I mean, we're talking about stuff I learned back in my astronaut days.

33:42And I remember meeting Charlie Duke, who was one of the moonwalkers, one of the 12 that walked on the moon. And he and I become friends and he came up to Columbia to speak to my students. And I spent a couple of days with him. It was great. And as we're walking around campus, you know, I realized that every conversation everyone was having with him and every talk he gave was about a couple of days he spent on the moon in his life. The man's in his eighties. So I said, you know, Charlie, everything you talk about is, does every, you know, you ever wonder about that? And he goes, no, that's okay, Mike.

34:07You know, that's, that's how significant those days were that they're not only days that you live in the moment, but that you can kind of relive and you take that experience with you and you share it. And so in some ways that might be even a bigger contribution than actually doing that, that task. So yeah, I did have to, particularly when I first left, I think you, you know, when you, and I think when you go through any major decision in life, like my decision to leave NASA, there's always going to be a little bit of regret. And, you know, like you can't, I don't think you can make a major decision in life without, oh, you know, I went this way.

34:38What happens if I went that way? And I kind of felt that way about it. I think pretty soon after I left NASA and was adjusting to my new life, I think those thoughts did go through my mind. Like, oh man, I'll never be able to match that. But now being this far away from it, I'm really happy with what I'm doing. So I think that that's something to keep in mind too, is that everything has a phase in life. Alan Bean, who is one of my mentors, we've mentioned him already a couple of times. He gave me, I think, very good advice at different times in my life. And one of them was, look at life as a series of phases.

35:11And you go from one phase to the next. And it doesn't mean that one is necessarily better or worse. They're just different and they're all good. And he went on in his career after being a moonwalker and then being on Skylab for a long duration flight, he went on to dedicate his life to painting. and he became a very successful artist. So I looked at it that way, that it's a, when you have a great career, be thankful for it. You know, don't, you could always, oh, I could have done more. I should have stayed there longer. Maybe I could have done this or that. But I think just be really grateful for that phase.

35:41And when it's time to move on, recognize it and move on to that next phase and embrace it. And what you did will always be with you and can always be a part of that next phase if it was that significant. And I feel like that's the way it was in my case. And, you know, also, like you mentioned earlier, as you age, there's physical limitations to being an astronaut and doing some of the things you did. So you lose some things, but you gain some things. Like you have the experience of doing what you did. So now you're taking that experience and either writing books or teaching or perhaps mentoring future astronauts.

36:14Or, you know, these are, it's valuable to take the skills you've accumulated from that exciting career. There's this book, From Strength to Strength, which talks about this a little bit by arthur brooks where you can't always be an athlete sometimes you have to coach athletes as you get older so and it it's interesting a lot of the people you describe like like charlie duke and ally alan beam here did that as well like sort of took on these more teaching or mentoring kind of roles or artistic sort of roles based on their

37:02experience. There was a conversation I had again, when I was a student in grad school, it was with a guy at NASA headquarters is very, very experienced. I can't remember exactly who it was, but he told me, I was talking about being an astronaut. He said, you know, being an astronaut isn't necessarily it ends. It's a means to an end that it gives you an opportunity to do great things with. And that's really what the job, I mean, the job is great while you're doing it, but it gives you such great experience and being again in the, you know, from writing the book, for example, is based on all the stuff I learned from NASA, all these things about teamwork and leadership and not giving up and pursuing goals and, and reaching out when you need help and so on.

37:42these were things that I learned as an astronaut. And so it wasn't just the job itself that was fulfilling and exciting and, and a very special time in my life. Uh, it was also lessons learned and experiences that will hopefully help other people. I think we don't always think of that. Uh, when we, we get to do, we get to do something really cool in life. That's great. Now, what are you going to do with that opportunity that you were given? And, uh, it can manifest itself in different ways. It doesn't always end well. You know, when I was leaving the astronaut office, I looked at a lot of examples of people who left the astronaut office and it doesn't always go well, but it does oftentimes go really well where people are able to have a next career that is very exciting.

38:25And we can think of examples of people that went from career to career to career that we know that we've heard of, uh, that you can say, wow, that's pretty cool. He went from this to this to this and uh i think that's okay you know it's all right to go to that next phase and realize that it may not be as exciting maybe you might not think it is but it could be just as good and that experience that you had that was so meaningful is what set you up for that next phase well what's an example where it didn't go so well for someone it's some examples i got from especially some of the older guys you know they would say that uh you know there were certain examples of an astronaut who left nasa and felt entitled where you know hey i've done this or that and now the goodies should come my way and uh they wouldn't ever be happy because they felt no matter what they got what didn't live up to what they sacrificed as an astronaut jim lovell gave me a piece of advice that advice uh came from alan bean about never feeling entitled that was he said whatever you do mike never feel like anybody owes you anything for what you did you know people think i was an astronaut i did this or that i now i deserve stuff no no no no that's not going to work can't do that uh jim lovell we were at a uh at an opening for the apollo 13 movie in imax uh it had come out a few years earlier the apollo 13 movie did and then a few years later is being released in imax and i was at the premiere with him and people who were taking our pictures.

39:53And he goes, you know, Mike, I got one piece of advice for you. I'm like, what is that, Jim? And he said, see all these people with these cameras right here taking our picture? They're not going to care about us tomorrow. They're going to be taking pictures of somebody else. You got to remember that fame is fleeting. And he said there were some people that he had worked with that didn't understand that, that fame was fleeting. And they were never happy because of that. And so I think that that's something to stay away from, of feeling entitled after you've done something really great or you think is great, or feeling that you're going to be famous always because of it, that you're always going to be invited to the White House, or you're always going to be on your show, James, or whatever it might be.

40:37That's not always going to happen. Well, you're always welcome. You're always welcome on this show. I appreciate that, James. But, you know, that may not always be the case, and that's okay. and uh if you think that that you should be always always always famous or always uh entitled to things you're you're done and uh so that that's not that's not good and then also some some people they kind of they didn't do well when they left they were not happy they things happen in their lives and you're like how the heck did this happen so i mean i look at what you gained in your career and what's told in this book, for instance, it's not like this external validation.

41:18Oh, I've been in space. I'm an astronaut. But you learned that moonshots are worth going for. You know, one in a million chance. Like, you know, you describe, you know, you've been on the Big Bang Theory a bunch of times, the TV show, and then you and others have been writing a pilot or a script for a TV idea, and they didn't like it. And you learn the odds. It's basically one in a million to get a TV show or one in a thousand to get a TV show on air, even if you have a great idea. I've been through that experience several times myself. And you really have to just keep pursuing to make the math start to work for you and to give yourself better odds.

41:59And, you know, at least in the book, you're still trying. I don't know where it's ended up, but, you know, I'm sure you wrote that over a year ago. But what show were you trying to pitch? Well, that was a show after the Big Bang Theory appearances. And when the Big Bang Theory was winding down, Bill Prady, one of the co-creators of the Big Bang Theory with Chuck Lorre, he and I had become friends. And it was actually his agent's idea. His agent had said that when he would get together with Bill, he would hear all these stories that I would tell Bill. And Bill would relate him just to amuse his agent.

42:33And his agent's like, you know, I think there may be a show there. and you and Bill could, and he had, he thought, you know, we could help create this thing together along with a writer from The Simpsons named Dan Greeney and a director, Jamie Widows, who directs a lot of TV shows. He actually played in the movie Animal House. He was the president of Animal House when he was a young, when he was a kid, he was the actor, you know, in his 20s, he was an actor. And anyway, so it was a pretty good team. And we got together and, and rode up, you know wrote a pilot we ended up getting a pilot deal from one of the major networks we had meetings with all the networks and and one in particular loved it and we said oh so we're going to write this pilot and we did it and they passed on the pilot so i was really disappointed with that but then i started realizing there it's the same thing as wanting trying to become an astronaut it's it's not going to be that easy and as i've learned from other people really successful people in Hollywood, they get turned down all the time.

43:32One of my friends in Hollywood said that when people are looking at your script or your proposal or whatever it might be, they're only going to get fired when they say yes, which is an interesting way to look at it, is that as long as they say no, they keep their job. But as soon as they say yes and take that risk, then they're putting themselves at risk if the show doesn't pan out. They can get canned for that. So that's the way it is, and it's not just that way for the group of people I was working with. It's that way for anyone trying to do something like that. There are lots of people with good, great ideas for television and not all of them are going to get picked.

44:07We're still trying to give you the update on that. No, we don't have anything. We've tried to re-attack and rewrite it and sometimes a little bit of time has to go by so you can try to re-attack because that was going back four years ago when we were doing that first attempt and we've had a few cents. Do you ever get feedback? They probably I don't really get feedback why, why it didn't pass because there's no incentive for them to give that feedback. But I'm sure there's a lot of funny things about being an ex astronaut that, you know, you could play around with. I thought it was a great script and Bill Prady was happy with it too.

44:42I mean, everyone was happy with it except that not that they weren't happy with it. I just think that the, the, the network, this is, I just think that they have lots of choices and they went, maybe they went with somebody else or didn't go in anybody. I don't know what happened, but no, We did not get, that was the interesting thing about it is they just more or less passed. You know, and it didn't, it wasn't like, well, we need this or that or we'll work with you. It was a pass and it wasn't much explanation. You know, it was four years ago. So I'm going to give a gut, knowing what was going on then, I'm going to give a gut reason why I think somebody might pass.

45:17Is that the TV show Space Force was not doing that great. Could be. And it had all the big names on it, and it just didn't seem to be working out. And maybe they feel like, oh, okay, that's related to astronauts in space, and it's not quite doing it. Because they tend to make decisions like that. That makes no sense, but that's a type of decision I can see people making in Hollywood. Yeah, there's all kinds of reasons. You know, the climate isn't good for this or that or whatever it is, like you're saying. uh there's whatever the reason was um that's where it was and i i think it's it's you have to just keep trying and um you know change things and and see what people but i i think at some point too you need to stay true to yourself and to to change it for you know whatever they look i don't think that would work what i what i enjoyed about the project most was hanging around with these guys was hanging around with bill and uh and dan and and jamie and and just throwing around ideas about what the show would be these these are hilarious people these are some of the funniest people i've ever been around and they were delightful people and very good friends and i just enjoyed working with them and so for that reason i would like to try to do a show and i know they're not i would be nice to get and for me i want to tell this the story some of the stories we've talked about and the experiences I've had, I think a television show would be a great way to tell the audience what that all was like and make them laugh too because there's a lot of funny stuff in there.

46:52We'll keep trying. One thing in the book that was kind of stood out as funny, and I didn't even think of this until I read it in your book, I think you were talking to Charlie Duke about something about being on the moon. And he said, you know, the big great thing about being on the moon was that you could take a dump. That was John Young. Oh, John Young, okay. Yeah, it didn't occur to me that, yeah, the moon's got gravity, so you solve a problem. Yeah, I couldn't believe it when he told me that. You know, I was a newer astronaut, and he was in his late 60s, I think at this point, but still an active astronaut, flying in a T-38.

47:27And so I was like, I can get to fly in a jet with this guy who walked on the moon, the first commander of the space shuttle. The guy was on Gemini 1. You know, this is it. You know, I, I, this is my, one of my boyhood heroes. And he went to the moon twice on Apollo 10. He orbited. And then Apollo 16, he walked on the moon. He was just, this is it, you know, the most, probably the most accomplished astronaut ever. And, uh, and it was like, you know, I'd love to fly with you. He's like, you bet. Good buddy. And next thing you know, like next week, I'm in the air with him going out to California.

47:56And on our way back, as you say, I finally got up. He was telling me all these unbelievable stories about things that they went through as new astronauts. and those other guys he worked with and what it was like in mission control and so and then in the white house stories i was new i couldn't believe all this stuff was he was telling me and then i finally got up to courage i asked him what was it like on the moon and i was expecting i don't know what i was expecting but it was you know we were coming over new mexico or something on our way back to houston and the sun was going down it was like that magical time and we're up above the clouds it's just beautiful you know and and uh what was it like on the moon john and he He says, well, I tell you, Mike, the best thing about it is you finally could take a dump.

48:34So I did not expect to hear that. But, you know, he went on to say, well, you know, you haven't been in space yet, but you're floating around in zero gravity and you can't, you know, gravity can't help you digest. And finally you get on the moon and at one sixth gravity is just enough so you can let it go. And I was like, really? I didn't have no idea what to say to that. But I think in some ways it was like trying to just make everything seem sort of normal because I can't think of anything more extraordinary than going to the moon. and that certainly wasn't, I'm sure that wasn't the most, most important thing, but in some way, you know, there was, it sort of made me realize, you know, all this stuff, not that it's routine, but it's achievable and it's, you know, that's, in some ways it kind of took the edge off of a huge accomplishment, kind of put in very, very simple terms of what he, what he was grateful for when he finally got to the moon.

49:25I wonder if that was part of the space program's research before anybody went to the moon, or I wonder if they only realized that this is an issue or an interesting thing after they send people to the moon. I don't think it was a concern. I don't know. I think that we learned more and more with using your digestive tract and zero gravity as time. Just the difference between my two flights, we started taking supplements and doing other things to help us with that stuff so we could have a, you know, to help us stay regular, let's say. so i i don't think they knew how what you know what that was going to be like and how much of an issue that was going to be they started adding to the diet and other doing other things to help help with that help help you stay on a regular schedule yeah for the people who had extended stays like in the space station did they have issues well you try to get now that we're on this topic you try to get regular beforehand right so what it is is that we would start taking us like something like metamucil beforehand just to try to get on a regular schedule and you keep taking that stuff uh in quarantine and in flight just so to kind of help things move along we also would eat a lot of dried fruit in space you didn't have much fresh fruit they can get some now they have some refrigeration on the space station but no these are the you know it sounds silly maybe in some ways but these are the things that you you don't want things like that to affect your performance you don't want to have a bad stomach or be dehydrated or sick or anything like that when you're trying to do things that are really important in space so you have to pay attention to all those little details now this is just kind of a curiosity thing but like michael collins you mentioned him earlier why did they ever let that guy go back to the moon just so he could walk on it like the yeah he's in the first three people to go there in that in that you know yeah all 11 And I always felt like maybe they should have just let him go back so he could walk too on the moon.

51:20That's a, you know, that's a really interesting comment. I don't know if he, if he talks about that in his book. It's been, I have, I just, I just was reading his parts of his book again, which I loved carrying the fire. And I don't, I don't know if he goes through that decision process or he talks about that. I don't, I don't know. I think, I don't know. It could be, it could be a couple of things. I think it's come to mind, and I'm just, you know, just, just conjecture here is that, um, once you have a flight like that, like Apollo 11, nothing's going to top Apollo 11. Um, nothing ever will.

51:56I don't think in the space program until we, until we find aliens walking around someplace. I don't think even going to Mars, I don't think is going to top Apollo 11. I think we're going to land on Mars and people are going to say, wait a minute. I thought we already did that. There was that movie, you know? So I think that Apollo 11 was such an unbelievable accomplishment. I mean, maybe going to Mars will be close, but I don't know. It was really amazing when the whole world was paying attention to that event. So it could be part of that, that, you know, how do you top this? But you could argue Alan Shepard was, you know, first man in space, first American in space, and then was Apollo 17.

52:32He played golf on the moon. Apollo 14. Yeah, he went back. So he had a break in the action, you know. But if you look at, like, John Glenn, for example, it was 25 years ago today, John Glenn, yesterday, not the date where we're talking about, but it was 25 years ago John Glenn went back to space. After 36 years after his first flight, and the reason was is that he was an American hero. And John F. Kennedy, who was the president during John Glenn's first flight, said, well, you're not flying again because it's a bit dangerous, and we're not putting you at risk as this. because John Glenn reached this fame of, he was more famous than Alan Shepard.

53:12He was the first American to orbit. And even though Alan Shepard was the first guy in space, I think as far as the fame factor went, John Glenn was more famous at the time, more well-known than Alan Shepard. And so that restriction was kind of put on by John F. Kennedy. And then unfortunately, we lost President Kennedy. And there was an interesting press conference before John Glenn was put on that second mission where President Clinton was president at the time. And he said something like, it's okay for John Glenn to fly in space again, which kind of went under the radar at the time. But it made the NASA news that now, okay, another president said, it's okay for you to go.

53:56And then he flew again on that second flight. I don't know if that had anything to do with Michael Collins or any of those guys. Because, yeah, they didn't fly a second time. There were guys like Buzz who went to the moon. I'm sorry. Like I mentioned, John Young went to the moon twice. And Jim Lovell also did. He flew around it on Apollo 8, and he was the commander of Apollo 13. Didn't get to walk on it, but he was there two times. So, yeah, you would think Michael Collins would have been perfect for a command following Apollo mission and to do the landing and to walk around. I'm not sure why that didn't happen.

54:35So what do you think is next for the space program? Like now that space tourism is becoming a thing, so now going into space might get commoditized at some point in the next 10, 20 years. It's already starting to be space tourism. And then, of course, there's talk of going to the moon again. There's talk of Mars, of course. Going into space, sending rockets into space has become much more commercial and in the private sector. So where do you think this is going? I think overall it's headed in a very good direction. I think having private enterprise involved is really good. I think the advances in technology and AI and computing, automation, where now the spaceships are very automated compared to everything we had through the shuttle.

55:22The shuttle was manually flown and very difficult and dangerous, and you had to know lots of stuff, not only what you were going to do, but also all the emergencies. 99.9 % of the training that the pilots had for the space shuttle was never used on orbit because it was all to handle emergencies that never happened. So now we have AI and computing and automation to handle all that, which makes the training a lot easier and more people can go. And even my students at Columbia have flown twice. They've flown experiments in space twice, which would be unheard of just a few years ago. So I think overall it's opened up lots of opportunities for not just for commercial benefit and not just for people to go to space, but also for science and access to space has increased and will continue as more and more commercial entities get involved.

56:11It's not just governments anymore. So I think that's overall a good thing. The only thing that I worry about, and this is just me personally, I typically don't talk about this, but I think there was something cool about being a NASA astronaut Doing it as a career and being part of that team that I try to express in the book and when I talk to people, that I hope we don't lose that. That is still, I think, something to aspire to, to do that job as a career, to serve your country in that way, to try to do it on behalf of science. We weren't there doing it for any financial gain. We were government employees trying to do what we thought was important.

56:50And as a result, it led to, I think, the accomplishment of great things. and also a lot of great experiences and things that I try to share. And so I don't think we're going to lose that. I think there'll always be that the NASA part of it, the role of the government in there to do that. But I think supplementing that with what we're doing with commercial space flying, whether it's commercial astronauts or companies doing things in space, I think that that far outweighs any negative that I can think of. So I'm very excited about the future and enables NASA to do other things, like what we're learning with the James Webb Space Telescope, going back to the moon again with the Space Launch System and the crew that's been announced to do that, looking at asteroids, the asteroid return missions, and putting our attention to things.

57:38NASA's been freed up to do a lot of that now because the commercial enterprise is taking care of what's going on in low-Earth orbit and may also be taking care of going back to the moon. So we'll see how that works out. And I think you're right. I don't think that team aspect, particularly kind of the aura around that from the early decades of NASA, including when you were there. I don't think that ever goes away because you guys were not only going into space, but you were exploring a frontier that America and the world and technology had, which is how do we do this? And it's pretty scary. And some people are going to lose their lives.

58:16so you have to be good and excellent and work together and continuous improvement and all these good things so and you really exemplified that both in your career and then now post-career like you know a bunch of books and uh you're you're you're teaching you're you're you're trying different things you're you're you're again an inspiration to many people not every astronaut is is you know i'm not criticizing anybody else but you know you're making an effort to really kind kind of show what happened and what you went through and your ups and downs and, you know, how hard it was and what you had to do to achieve the impossible.

58:53And it's, it's an inspiration. Like that's, that's something to keep in mind about, not just about giving up, but about improving yourself to fit the role you want to, you want to ultimately have and the teamwork that's required and the leadership that's required and so on. So again, great book, moonshot mike you're always welcome keep writing books and making tv shows and come back all the time and uh i'm sure you have many great things to accomplish in in the next phase of your career and uh uh thanks once again thank you thank you james i really enjoy speaking with you and uh you got me thinking uh with some of the questions you're asking so i hope your audience enjoys this and and i really appreciate your support and uh hope to speak to you again soon thanks james Definitely.

59:41Thank you.