The Viral Chess Cheating Scandal with Anal Beads: Ben Mezrich Reveals the Full Story

21:50They know that you're looking at other screens on your computer. They can tell how long you're working on a, you know, and time is a big issue in cheating. You know, if you spend a long time, you know, you go quickly on one move and then a long time on the next move, that looks different than a real player who would take a longer time on the first move and then quicker on the next couple moves. And it's things like that where they can really use their data analysis to catch cheaters. Hans was not aware of that when he was a little kid, obviously. So, I don't know. Yeah, there's reasons to cheat online if you're trying to build a career in chess.

22:25James Altucher:Yeah, and then, you know, there's something to what Magnus said where after the game, he and his coach, Peter, said they felt like they were playing someone who was cheating. And I do believe, first off, I'll just say up front, I don't think Magnus was cheating in that tournament. But there is something to be said about the fact that you can kind of tell when someone is cheating against you. There's a style of play where you feel like you just never have any chance at all. They make moves that are just so far beyond, particularly for Magnus to say that there's something to be said about that. You have to take that credibly.

23:00James Altucher:So I can't say 100 % for sure if Magnus is making an accusation, he really has knowledge that other people don't have in terms of styles of play. So that has to be taken seriously. And there was something to the fact that Hans seemed to be almost oblivious to what was going on the board and just making his moves. There's something Magnus was picking up on that is correct. And I don't really know how to combine that with the fact that I don't, in my heart, feel like Hans was cheating there. Magnus is also credible. So that's why it's an impossibly difficult situation to really... Yeah, and when you get into the level of what was actually going on at that moment in their lives, it also gets more interesting because Magnus was coming off...

23:46He was in an interesting sort of depressed period in his life and career in a weird way, where he had some issues, relationship issues. He was stepping away from being world champion. He had been to Miami where he'd already played Hans and didn't think much of his playing style. So he already had in his head that Hans wasn't a threat. Hans wasn't supposed to be there. And then at the game itself, a lot of weird things happened with the photographer. I was able to talk to everybody involved and actually see some secret tape of the actual game. I got some inside stuff. And, you know, the photographer was trying to get a picture of Hans was chewing gum while he was playing.

24:26And he was kind of blowing a bubble. And the photographer wanted to get a picture of Hans blowing a bubble while he beat Magnus. So he stepped over towards the board. And Magnus saw that and thought that this didn't look right and this person's coming close to the board. You know, said something. There were some words said. Also earlier in the match, the photographer, another player had asked the photographer for the soccer score of a soccer game going on. And the photographer had made signals to the guy telling him the score, which Magnus had seen. There was weirdness going on. So you can look at that and say, well, Magnus probably had a reason to think something weird was going on here.

25:01Plus he used a, and you know this better than I would, but he was playing in a way that was not normal for him. and Hans immediately picked up on it and made a move that didn't make a lot of sense that Hans would know that move. And then in the interview afterwards, Hans' story didn't make sense at all of how he knew that move. He said, oh, I miraculously had just been watching this game with so-and-so earlier. That person hadn't even used that move. So it was a weird thing that got confusing, for sure.

25:29James Altucher:Yeah, and that can't be explained. Like, I guess you're the first person to reveal this because until I read your book, I didn't realize about the photographer situation. No, nobody knew that because nobody other than me I believe it's spoken to him. And so I don't think anybody knows that. And it wasn't in a Netflix doc. And I don't think they got to that. There's a couple of things in the book. There's certainly like five or six things in the book that just have never come out before. So hopefully they'll get picked up. You never know in the book business anymore whether anybody reads anything.

25:55But there's certainly some secrets about what actually went on that I think changed the story a little bit. But that is one. When you look at that, you think, okay, now Magnus probably was suspicious already. And then he sees the photographer signaling a soccer score. It's weird. And then walking up to the table, you know.

26:11James Altucher:In your book, you say how Magnus approached the photographer and said, this is a huge tell. Like, that seems unbelievable to me that Magnus would even do that. Like, that's like an accusation in the middle of a game. Yes, and afterwards, his father kind of, they apologized in a way. I mean, the photographer's very respected. And, you know, Leonard Oates is like one of the top guys who's photographed everybody, and he has fine relationships with everybody involved. He's a very serious person. But he's the one guy in the room who has a computer, you know, and he's sitting right there with a computer, and he's got his camera equipment and he's moving around.

26:41And yeah, Magnus, you know, did not like that he approached a table. And then Magnus sends his dad over to question him. His dad that night from the hotel goes over there to interrogate the photographer and figure out what the heck is going on in this room. And everyone in the end is like, okay, it had nothing to do with the photographer. It was not, he was not cheating. But it was a very strange moment, you know, that led to all this. What else was unusual when you were looking at the tape? I think Hans was clearly not paying, pretending or not paying attention. He was touching his ear a lot, which is something that may or may not mean anything at all.

27:19You know, he had big shaggy hair at the time and he was doing a lot of this. He was, you know, moving around a lot. He was not, you know, focused on the game at all. And he would look at the game and then go like, and then he would make a move. And Magnus, meanwhile, was just getting more and more upset and frustrated and angry and leaning forward over the table. and you could just see he was losing. That's, you know, so I don't know. I don't know what any of that means. I mean, Hans is a jittery guy though. So it's like when you're hanging out with him, he's like that. He's moving a lot. His air is a big thing.

27:51And so you can't get any real, you know, feel necessary for that. Other than that, I can understand why Magnus was confused by how it was going. Because you have both the fact that over the board, Hans is making moves that Magnus clearly thought Hans wouldn't be able to make. and then you have Hans' demeanor where, you know, he just doesn't... Magnus said something like, nobody plays me like this. Nobody beats me like this. Like, it's just not possible. When I get beat, you know, they beat me a certain way. They're really focused. Like, they're really playing chess and nobody just barely pays attention and beats me with the black pieces.

28:25So what's Hans' explanation for that? Okay, Hans felt he was playing his idol. This is the way he says. And that he was... That it was a huge match for him. He was nervous. He was excited. and then he quickly realized that he was winning and that Magnus was making mistakes, that Magnus was losing to an idiot, you know, like that, he's funny when you talk to Hans about it, but he's basically like saying that Magnus really couldn't believe he was losing to Hans and Hans was enjoying the fact that his, you know, that Magnus was losing. So he doesn't explain away like all the movements and the chewing gum.

29:00He just said he didn't, you know, It wasn't particularly difficult that Magnus was blundering.

29:06James Altucher:You know what? You can put together a narrative where, like you're suggesting, and you suggest in the book, Magnus was overconfident. He had just crushed Hans, even casually, a few months or weeks earlier in Miami, like when they were playing on the beach. He really thought Hans was a significant level below him, which, by the way, is probably true. And so he got overconfident. He played an opening that was a little bit rare, and maybe even Magnus didn't know all the nuances. Hans starts beating him, and then from Hans' point of view, Hans is, he knows he's psychologically annoying, and so he just amped that up because he knows Magnus can't handle it.

29:47James Altucher:Like, Magnus can handle it, but not against Hans. It was just the Chess Speaks for Itself interview a few months later. Yeah. I think he amped that up to just drive Magnus crazy, and he knew... You know, psychology is an important part of the game. He knew that that was going to increase his chances of winning. Yeah, and then there's another level to this that earlier that day, and this is all in the book, Magnus had breakfast with Danny Wrench, who runs chess.com. And at the breakfast, it was clear to Danny that Magnus and his father and their team were already uncomfortable playing Hans. That they had actually even thought about not playing.

30:25that Hans had a reputation, that there were whispers going around that he had cheated online, and that after Miami, there were people who were saying that he shouldn't have been in the tournament, that people were saying they didn't want to be in the tournament because Hans was there. So there was already in Magnus' mind some level of suspicion. So when you add that to the mix, the idea that he starts to act weird and he sees all this, he immediately goes back to that in his mind. And as you said, it's a mental game. And if you think the guy across from you might be cheating, even if he's not, it changes how you play and it changes what you think he's going to do next.

31:03And for all you know, the reason that Magnus made an unusual move in the beginning was because he was suspecting that Hans would cheat. And he maybe wanted to throw that off in some way. So, you know, it, it, it, and this is the reason why I think it's unfair to say it doesn't matter if you cheated online. It shouldn't make a difference because if, if you cheated before, it changes the, the way people want to play you. And, and I think that's important to, to take into, that's why the game has to stay sacrosanct. That's why you do have to have no cheating in chess because it's not the same game if cheating exists.

31:41and so you know you can look at both sides of this and be and have sort of a you know a connection to both players i think in a different way i genuinely like hans even though i think he's completely crazy i don't say that in a negative way i mean he's he's he's out there like you hang out with them and he's clearly believes that there's this chess mafia out to destroy him and he hates danny wrench he thinks danny and the chess.com guys are evil and are personally trying to eliminate him. And he thinks Magnus is completely evil. I mean, and he can be very unhinged in person. I mean, he loves Bobby Fischer.

32:16He worships Bobby Fischer, both good and bad. You know, the spiral down almost as much as the ability, the isolation and all of that stuff. He's an interesting character, but I have a lot of feeling for him. And I get why he feels the world is against him. And it almost goes beyond chess. You know, it's tough. It's a tough world.

32:35James Altucher:Yeah, because, you know, there's only, you could only get to like the top 10 if you're playing players in the top 10. But if you're not invited to the tournaments, because let's say Magnus or Hikaru or whoever doesn't want you invited to the tournaments, you're never going to be a professional chess player to make a living. And so, you know, like after this accusation, how did Hans just deal psychologically with everybody hating him? Not well. I would say not well. Now, you know, there's famous incidents where he trashed a hotel room. And he really, you know, he describes those, oh, maybe I broke a couple of vases.

33:12And, oh, I threw an umbrella through a picture window. And then he walked downstairs and he basically handed his credit card over and said, I'll pay for whatever I did. But he destroyed a hotel room, one thing he did. There's a famous incident where he's playing chess and the person across from him broke the head off the chess piece, which is in my story. And then, allegedly, they ended up in the parking lot having a conversation. Hans, you know, in the lawsuit, he accuses Magnus of getting a group of people at one of the European competitions to start screaming Hans the cheater and then marching through the streets of whatever little European town it was, drunkenly screaming Hans the cheater all over the place.

33:53Like he definitely spiraled where he really got angry. And then he eventually sued, you know, he sued Chess.com for$100 million. So he definitely spiraled because he believed that he has no recourse, that this Chess mafia was against him. He had been called a cheater and without evidence, you know, in his mind. And so he got very upset. So he was, the anger level is through the roof with him, certainly right after it. and I think it goes back and forth now as he's attempted to sort of, he's rebuilt himself in chess. You know, he's played extremely good chess, but, and with Hans, you never know how much is performative and how much is real also.

34:33There's kind of this character that he plays as well, but I think most of it is real. I think he was seriously wounded by this and his reputation, and he has no, you know, I don't know where he goes from here, but we'll see.

34:47James Altucher:But, you know, it should be mentioned, like, it's very difficult to kind of come out of that. Like in terms of chess accusations of cheating, there's been at least one probable suicide because of this. There's been mental health issues across the board when people have been accused of cheating to the point where they're out of the game. They can't play. So Hans, having survived this, and actually he's ranked number 12th in the world now, which is much higher than he was then, it's sort of unbelievable. And now it's being number 12 in the world. It's pretty legit. It's not like he's cheating every tournament.

35:21No, he's not good. The other part of this story is, you know, the dirty part, the anal beads part of this story. So this is like, this turns it in, turns it from being just somebody cheated at chess to a worldwide phenomenon. It was because of a viral tweet. And I'm very proud of this moment as a journalist. I think I should win the Pulitzer for this. I'm the only person who tracked down the anal beads, the actual tweet, not the anal beads themselves, but the tweet. I found where that came from And there's a chapter in the book There's literally a dude In Liverpool, England Who's a ticket taker On like a train That's what he does for a living Who his part-time hobby Is being an internet troll And every night He sits on his couch And he tries to make things go viral And he and his buddies Were on some Reddit board And they had seen that Hans had just been accused of cheating And joking around on this Reddit board They were like How do you think he cheated?

36:15You know what would be really funny if he had put like a vibrator in his butt. And then someone's like, oh, that's not really funny. Oh, you know what's cool? Anal beads. And they were like, that's perfect. So then they go over to this chest streamer, chest bra, I guess it's out of -

36:30James Altucher:Yeah, Eric Hansen. Right, Eric Hansen. And they just bomb the comment section over and over again with like anal beads, anal beads, using anal beads just to get Eric Hansen to say it online. And then when he says it, they capture the, they clip it, they put it in a tweet. And so this dude who calls himself Babs in Liverpool, tweets it, and then nothing happens. He doesn't think anything of it. He goes to work, and suddenly his phone starts going off, and Elon Musk had retweeted his tweet. So the anal beads actually had nothing to do with the story at all. It was just this dude in Liverpool who I hunted down, I interviewed, had a great time with him.

37:01And I love that sort of thing, like the idea that, you know, that's how this world works now. It's like you need attention. You need to get noticed for anything to become huge. And if it had not been for that tweet, none of us would be talking about this. This story would have disappeared pretty much overnight, I really believe, because there's been cheating things before. And yeah, they've led to sort of things in the chess world, but outside of the chess world, it's rare that a cheating scandal gets noticed. But it was anal beads. It was literally this tweet that I think made this worth a book and a movie.

37:37James Altucher:It's so funny, because I didn't know that part of the story until I read the book, your book, because I always thought it was Eric Hansen just joking around. No, no, it was controlled. It was like a actual purposeful situation by a internet troll to get it out there. And it just cracks me up. It's that's how this works. It's like, there's so many articles about all these troll farms and all of this stuff. But the reality is it actually works. It's the only form of marketing that still works, to be honest. And it was wild. And yeah, nobody else found that story. So I'm pretty proud of that.

38:24James Altucher:so at this point now it's several years later hans is 12th in the world you know magnus is i don't want to say he's retired or even semi-retired like he's still an active player he's playing next week in norway do you think they could ever get to the point where they have respect for each other again hans being 12th in the world is deserving of some respect right well here's the interesting thing. So in the book, the book ends in kind of a perfect, to me, a story came to an end in a right way because one year later, two years later, they had an actual rematch. The first time they met again was at a chess.com speed online, but live final in Paris, which is just so spectacular as a writer to have an ending where all your characters are in one room after having had this vicious, dramatic hatred of each other.

39:09It's very Shakespearean. It's like the ending of a play. And literally, they faced head-to-head, and Dany was there announcing it, and Hikaru was there. That's the other person who had to play Hans. It was every person there in one room, and Magnus destroyed him. He destroyed Hans. And then Hikaru also destroyed Hans. And then basically, Magnus' interview afterwards is basically, you can see he's not on my level. And so, it's interesting that now, you're right, now Hans has continued to rise. I mean, Magnus is still the greatest in the world, I think, but through, because of, you know, he's aging.

39:43And that's the other part of the story that I'm always fascinated. I've always loved prodigies. I think prodigies are just something that, you know, it's wild to think about that in chess, math, and music. There's people that like three years old are suddenly like incredible. And it's weird. It's something in the brain. If you were religious, you'd believe it's something religious. It's just so rare and beautiful and magical, but then they get older, right? And then you have Magnus and now he's sitting across from a seven-year-old, right? Or he's sitting across from a nine-year-old and suddenly he's not the prodigy anymore.

40:17How do you deal with that? And I think Magnus is dealing with that right now. At some point, he has to stop, you know? And what do you do then? And so you still have, Hans has said this in many interviews, I'm going to be playing while you and Hikaru are old men in Hawaiian shirts sitting on a beat. You know, he's joking about, you'll have to watch me be number one in the world. But that's kind of how it works, right? In all of these kinds of things, eventually you have to stop being the kid, right? The special one and someone else takes over. And so to your question, I believe just from my interactions with everybody that Magnus really, really believes Hans cheated.

40:56He still believes that to this day. And I really believe that Magnus has a very, heavy dislike for Hans. And I think Hans very much says or believes that regardless of whether he cheated or not, and of course, Hans says he absolutely did not cheat, that Magnus had no reason to accuse him, that Magnus is this, you know, mafia Don with Danny and Eric running chess.com. And so there's no love there at all. So I don't know. Listen, I think they'll play each other. I think that Magnus would sit down and play Hans, and Hans would certainly want to play Magnus, but I don't think that they're going to do it as friends, you know what I'm saying?

41:35I think it's more like, you know.

41:38James Altucher:What was interesting in your book too, there was another incident that I didn't know about until reading your book, which is Magnus, apparently, right after that initial game where he thought Hans cheated, he wanted to go to Hans' room and ask him directly if he cheated, which is, I respect the naivete of that that someone is going to just admit to doing wrong. It shows Magnus' purity for the game, and I love that. But it was just an interesting thing. Like, it's also not very smart in the sense that no one's going to admit it, just if you ask them. Yeah, it's a great scene. So they get back to the hotel room, and yeah, Magnus is like, I'm just going to walk over to his room.

42:12And his dad is like, no, that's not going to be a good idea. It would have gone probably really badly, I would think. But yes, Magnus' father is, to me, a very great character. He really believes in this kind of old-world honesty thing that chess is a thing for gentlemen and that you sit down and you play with someone and there's honor in this. And the idea of cheating to him is so out of this world. He can't imagine that somebody would cheat. To him, it's like, he still, I don't believe Magnus' dad believes Hans could have cheated simply because he doesn't think anyone would do that. So even when Magnus came out of the game and said to his dad, you know, I think he cheated, Magnus' dad is like, well, let's calm down.

42:52Let's go look at this. Let's investigate. I mean, you're, you know, it's your, you're the one making the call. But I think his dad is like, I don't want to go that way. He supports his son, but it's so out of bounds to him. And so Magnus does want to go confront Hans. He wants to go over to his room and just ask him. Boy and Blake would have been really interesting if he had, but I'm sure Hans would have.

43:15James Altucher:Henrik, you know, Magnus' dad is, you're right. He's a great guy. He really, I've seen him give talks about raising Magnus. He really did a good job creating the best, not creating, but having a son who's the best chess player in the world. I've actually played a match against Henrik, which he won four to two. As you know, he's a very good player. And I've had dinner with both Henrik and Magnus. He's a very good guy. I really like Henrik a lot. But to the point of whether Hans cheated, there's also, the room had no windows, or maybe there was one tiny window in the corner of the ceiling. and there was no way really to cheat.

43:52James Altucher:Like, I wonder how Magnus thinks Hans cheated. Well, no, there was a live stream. It was live streamed and it wasn't a delay, I believe. Yeah, there wasn't a delay. And so I don't want to go too much into accusations that I don't know the answer to, but there certainly was possibility. So the chess.com guys to investigate it, first of all, they got ahold of thousands of dollars worth of cheating equipment just to see what you could do. The wand that was used at the Sinkfield Cup was a cheap like$19 wand you can buy off of Amazon, would not have caught most devices. And the devices are so sophisticated nowadays that you can get a little thing that goes really deep in your ear.

44:32It's not, you can't see it, it's invisible. It can't be detected by anything except for an RFID detector. So no regular wand is gonna detect it. And it's paired to a cell phone. The cell phone has to be within, you know, not that close a distance to it to be paired to it. And then you need an accomplice. And someone is watching the live stream and flicks a thing on your phone and you get a vibration. And what it's basically going to tell you is, you know, you could probably do Morse codey kind of thing or have some sort of code already prepared and do that. And so the idea is, I think in the moment, Magnus believed it was some sort of signal, right?

45:10Because he had two cues or goes after the photographer or something in the room. But I think chess.com people were more thinking there's an accomplice somewhere nearby who's watching a stream or a feed of some sort who's able to do this. Again, it's all kind of crazy to think that Hans could set something like that in short notice. Hans was not expected to be at the Sinkfield. He was replacing another player. He wasn't good enough to be in that championship. He wasn't ranked high enough. He had flown in from Turkey and had actually run out of the middle of a other event that he was supposed to be at to play at the Sinkfield Cup.

45:44So it would be unusual. But at the same time, and in my book, I kind of reveal there was somebody in St. Louis who was a person of interest for chess.com, having been closed for cheating at chess.com, who was a close associate or friend of Hans. I'm not saying that means anything. I'm just saying that's out there. That's out there now. So there's a potential accomplice. I don't know if that's true or not. But it's a spectacularly interesting thing. What was Magnus thinking? I don't think he was thinking it through at that moment. But the Chess.com people certainly thought it through. And I believe they believe Hans cheated, even to this day.

46:26I don't think they would say that in public. They would say, you know, the evidence. Let's be clear. The Chess.com report, you know, which is a very long report, said that they had evidence that Hans cheated online like 100 times, but they had no evidence that he cheated over the board. No smoking gun evidence. They had some circumstantial evidence that made his some over-the-board games seem suspicious to them. And they had received lots of tips from people saying that they were suspicious over the board games over time, but they had no evidence that he cheated over the board of the Singfield Cup.

47:03however they it wasn't exactly an exoneration like Hans calls that report an exoneration and it's kind of like when like Trump said I've been exonerated to whatever Trump says he's exonerated for you know there's a difference between saying I have no evidence that you cheated in this game and that I'm exonerating you from this game right there's a difference there and I think if you talk to the chess.com people off camera they would say that they believe he cheated. So, you know, but then again, you know, I don't think they have the evidence to back that up. And I think they would admit they don't have the evidence to back that up.

47:41James Altucher:Yeah, I mean, the most suspicious thing for me on the Han side is the interview afterwards where he claims he had the opening. He had studied that particular opening just the night before when Magnus had never really played that opening before. So there was like no reason to really study that. And the other suspicious thing is I really do trust Magnus's gut opinion because you can tell when something weird is happening. And Magnus, probably better than anyone in the world can tell. But then again, Magnus was predisposed to thinking Hans was going to potentially cheat, and he really didn't like Hans to begin with.

48:15James Altucher:So there's that issue. And then the other thing is I spoke to Ken Regan, who's a strong chess player who specializes in online cheating, and he ran his algorithms across Hans' over-the-board games and found statistically no evidence of cheating. but none of those algorithms are perfect either. So it really is a complicated issue that we're never going to know the answer to. We're never going to know the answer to it. I think we have to accept Hans at his word at this moment. I think that Magnus, I think it's clear that Magnus had no right to accuse him of cheating. I think that that's pretty clear, that there was no, you know, it reminds me of, I think there was a couple of Seinfeld episodes where George is like lying about something and then someone accused him of lying and he's upset because they have no reason to accuse him of lying, even though he is lying, right?

48:59That's the point is that there was no evidence. And it was a big deal to sort of attempt to ruin somebody's life because without the evidence to back it. Now, in the Netflix documentary, Magnus makes it kind of seem like, and Magnus and his dad make it seem like a phone call with Danny Wrench made them think Chess.com had the evidence that they didn't have. I don't think that was fair. Having gone through what happened in that conversation, both with Henrik and with Danny, I think what happened in that conversation was Magnus and Henrik wanted Danny to say that he had evidence that Hans had cheated.

49:36But what Danny actually said was that, you know, we support Magnus in whatever he wants to do, but I don't think it's a good idea for you to accuse him of cheating. Danny made it clear he did not think it was a good idea because there wasn't evidence yet that they would look into it, that they were going to investigate it, that they had the responsibility to look at it. But he did not think that there was evidence. He did say, you know, he's cheated in the past. You know, he gave him basically the online story. But I think that Magnus and Henrik probably misread the conversation thinking that they had support for their accusation.

50:11James Altucher:You know, it's interesting. And this is related to something that I'm going through personally. But Hans' statement that eventually Magnus and Hikaru are going to be weaker and Hans is going to be stronger. this is just historically true like it used to be the case that you could play chess into old age and there's evidence of strong players in their 40s and 50s like Viktor Korchnoi in the 70s and Vasily Smislav in the 70s, 80s these were very, even Bishonov and Anand now but to a lesser extent but most players, and I've just noticed this you know, just studying old versus younger players most players end up 200 rating points lower than their peak as they get older.

50:54James Altucher:And you don't think that chess is like an athletic sport where obviously if you're playing basketball, you're going to get weaker over time because physically you're not as strong when you're older. But it's true mentally too somehow. And I don't know the reason why, but everybody ends up 200 rating points lower, which is like a standard deviation or two standard deviations below your peak strength. So there is going to be a period where Hans is probably going to be better than these guys, even for just a couple of years. And, you know, so there is a reason to be a little nervous about that for Magnus and Hikaru and all the top players.

51:27James Altucher:But Magnus is so far ahead of everyone else, it's kind of incredible. In fact, the more you know, the more you realize how Magnus is incredible. And it's sort of unbelievable how good he is. Yeah. Do you think Hans can make number one one day? I mean, it's obviously hard to say, but there are so many good players. The thing is, people like Sindarov and Gukes and Prague and Faruja, let's take Prague and Sindarov as the best examples. They have such good coaching. They work so hard. They're so talented. You know, they're probably the biggest contenders for number one. And I don't know if Hans will ever be number one compared to them, you know, and, and, but, but look, and clearly there is some secret sauce, no matter how much you study and how much you learn, where you need that secret sauce to get to the top, top number one.

52:17James Altucher:Like there's a big difference between number one, and number 10, I think. It's the difference between number 10 and number 100 is the difference between number 1 and number 10. So, like Wesley So, he's a top 10 player. He's been maybe the 4th or 5th highest rated player of all time. He probably can never be number 1 just because there's a psychology to it too. You have to be like a real killer. Magnus can kill people in a dark alley. And Wesley So is such a nice guy, he cannot do it. Yeah. And Hans is almost too much of a killer. Like he just doesn't have like that balance that Magnus has. Yeah.

52:57James Altucher:I don't know enough of the of the nuances at that level to really understand. But you can just see the combination of coaching and support that Sindarov and Prague have is beyond what Hans has. Yeah. I mean, Hans is on his own a lot, even now. I mean, he has more of a team now, but it's basically been Hans, you know, training in a little room his whole life, which is kind of admirable in a lot of ways. And in some ways, I think what young people understand when they see Hans is that, you know, it's a tough world. and you do what you do and you don't have regrets and the line between sort of what's right and what's wrong blurs when the world is against you in a lot of ways when you're alone and you're 16 years old.

53:43How does Hounds have money now? That's a great question. I don't know the answers to that. I think, I know he's got some sort of, not sponsorship, so one of the things that he felt like chess.com and the mafia took away from him was the ability to have sponsors and the kind of money you needed to do a proper tour and go from event to event. He was like, you know, just on whatever, whoever would take him whatever cheap ticket he could get for most of his career. I think now, I know he's got some relationship with some company. He was starting his own chess online something.

54:11James Altucher:Yeah, ingame.ai. Yeah, exactly. I don't honestly know what that is. You know, he was like a representative of Magnus' of one of Magnus' things, which is kind of funny to think about. I don't know what he makes on the streaming or that kind of stuff. I don't know the economy of Hans' career right now. It's a great question, actually. Because, yeah, he plays all these matches in stadiums, and there's some switch that flipped where suddenly he had money to do things. I think he had some benefactors who had a business idea around him and his instant, you know, his moment of celebrity to utilize it to get these tournament, these, like, stadium tournaments going.

54:47I mean, I think the idea of trying to turn chess into something that you get 10 ,000 people into a stadium for is really cool. You know, and I would like to see chess become like baseball or another sport. In some countries, it's very popular. You know, you probably know in India, it's huge. You know, they do have 10 ,000 people show up to a chess event. And maybe if you had the right characters and you, one of the things chess.com did very brilliantly was create this ecosystem of streamers, which I think you can attest all the Danny Wrench at chess.com. The idea that they were going to create this kind of like star system and give them the opportunities to sort of have access to whatever chess.com could do to help them become big names.

55:26And some of these people have, you know, five, 10 million followers across social media. And that's a big deal in an industry like that. I just, someone, I did an event last night and the host said 600 million people play chess right now. 70 % of people have played a game of chess. And I don't know many sports that have that kind of statistic to it. You know, 70 % of people have not played basketball. There's no way. So it's like the numbers are pretty impressive on chess. So, you know, I guess we'll see what happens with it.

56:01James Altucher:Now, is there going to be a movie of this book? Yeah. So the movie was picked up by Nathan Fielder, who I think is an absolute genius to direct and write. And Emma Stone is producing. Emma's wonderful and maybe be a part in it. We'll see. And it's at A24. I sold the movie actually before I sold the book. I had written I have this system where I write a treatment and I sell the Hollywood side, then I sell the book side, then I write the book while we attempt to develop the movie alongside it. So it's moving along. Hopefully we'll get into sort of a finished script and casting very soon. It was a very hot story when I pitched it, which was really interesting because I had no idea what the interest level would be.

56:37And it turns out a lot of people in Hollywood play chess. There was a lot of excited people about it. So it should be a really cool movie.

56:43James Altucher:I didn't know that Nathan Anfield and Emma Stone had teamed up to do their own production. They did a show called The Curse, which is a really funny show. And after that, this would be their first feature together with Nathan directing a big feature. So hopefully, you know, Nathan is a really interesting guy. I think he's brilliant, but he's also kind of hard to talk to. So I have no, I don't, getting information out of him is, it's not the easiest thing in the world. So, you know, I have no idea where that is right now. But A24 is just an awesome, awesome studio. have a couple of projects with them.

57:14And I think they're, they're just amazing. So I think it'll be a really cool movie. And also Nathan is so unique. If you've seen the rehearsal, which I'm sure, you know, like you have no idea what he's going to do with it.

57:25James Altucher:Is that his real character? Like, yeah, he's like that. He's like that. Like, I remember when I finished the book, I sent him the book and I'm like, email him here. I finished the book, you know, and he's like, good. It's like, okay, I just spent a year writing this thing and that, but it's not, you know, he doesn't mean it in a mean way. It's just that's that's his reaction. It's like he doesn't there's no emotion. Right. Or I can't read his emotion. Maybe that's the way it is. Well, Emma Stone is like the opposite. She's like wonderful and fun and like interesting. It's just, you know, he is that character, I think.

57:56And he's funny, too. He's very funny. But I, you know, I don't know. I don't know how to read him, but I love him. I think he's awesome.

58:02James Altucher:And have you worked on the next? Have you started working on the next? Yeah, I have a lot going on. So the sequel or companion piece to The Social Network comes out in October. It's called The Social Reckoning. Aaron Sorkin wrote and directed it. And so I get to sort of help promote that, which will be a lot of fun this fall. I have a new book that I sold as a big movie called The Last Orbit, which will be coming February of next year, February. And it's, I don't know if you followed this asteroid called YR4 last year, earlier, end of last year. We spotted an asteroid. It's a city killer. So if it hit, it would blow up a city.

58:34And it had the highest chance of hitting the Earth that any asteroid we've seen. It was like 4%. Then the numbers went down and it disappeared behind the sun. We will not see this asteroid again until 2028 when it will reappear and we'll train all our telescopes on it. And NASA has all these potential plans in place of how you defend a city from an asteroid. So it's my Armageddon. Matt Shackman, who did Fantastic Four, is directing and set up at Tristar. And so I'm writing the book right now. And it's basically like predictive nonfiction starting in 2028. what does NASA have in place? And it's really cool.

59:10They've opened their doors to me and I've sort of been interviewing all the, there's a whole division of planetary defense, which is fascinating. And some really cool toys they have in place that, you know, may or may not work. So it's interesting. I've always been into asteroids and Armageddon, of course, is such an awesome movie, but an updated sort of real version of it. But it's not oil riggers going to put a nuclear weapon on a giant asteroid. It's astronauts, if necessary, but most likely a kinetic rocket or potentially putting astronauts out there to do something about it. That book is next.

59:42And then a couple other TV stuff milling around that hopefully will get going pretty soon.

59:48James Altucher:You know, both you and I were advisors on Billions. I was season three. Oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah. They got a big new show going, Brian and David, which is awesome. Yeah. That's right. You were on Billions. Yeah, I was at season five. I was a writer, a producer, and I wrote one of the episodes, and I had a blast. I love those guys, and I love that show. Yeah, great show. Well, Ben, I always enjoy all of your books. I always enjoy having you on the podcast. And when you did this chess story, it's like my mind exploded because we just love chess, obviously. So I was so happy that you came on the show and I always love talking about this stuff.

1:00:22James Altucher:I follow the whole field very closely and your book was in Page Turner and it was great talking to you about it. Thank you so much. I really love doing your show. I love talking to you and it's awesome. I feel like we've known each other a long time now. I think we go back a long way. Well, I think you were on like six years ago, seven years ago, something like that. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's awesome. Well, I'm still kicking around. So thank you. No, it's awesome talking to you and best of luck and everything. And I hope this book explodes for me. You too. I can't wait for the movie to come out.

1:00:50It's going to be really cool. Very cool. Awesome.

1:01:05At first, I didn't think it was real. I woke up to this blinding light, and I was transported to another place. Pluto TV! Then I heard a voice.

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