Wisdom You'll Wish You'd Known Earlier | Kevin Kelly

27:30And man, that is really, really sobering and clarifying. So I like to think in terms of days and five-year blocks. So I have, you know, 5 ,000 something days to do whatever I'm going to do. And the five-year things, because there's five years. And so the five years is an accounted from the moment you first have the idea and maybe sketching it and making notebook ideas to the day that you stop thinking about it. That's the limits. And so the first initial part of it is just kind of noodling, Trying to decide whether this is a good idea, whether you really want to do it, what the consequences would be, maybe trying to imagine it.

28:10And I believe, and that's another piece of advice in the book, in prototyping. Prototype your life instead of making grand plans. Prototype everything. So I made, this is the book, and I made prototype versions of the book that are bound and different versions of it as I went along imagining and designing the book. And I do that with all my books at different stages, make prototypes. And I do that with anything I'd make or design is like in the kitchen remodel. We did a prototype of full-scale cardboard. You get refrigerator, cardboard boxes, and you make a full-scale prototype of it to see what it looks like in real life, to see what it feels like, so you can make those adjustments.

28:58And when I make things, I make a prototype version of it knowing that I'm going to throw it away. In other words, it's just a step on the way. And so that's, for me, the second year, kind of, is, or at least the second, latter half of the first year is prototyping stage, where I'm kind of still exploring. I can tell really whether it's going to work or not and still trying to see whether I'm committing to it or not. And then once I'm going further, I'll prototype again the next stages maybe to see whether there's more people that want to be involved, whether it's what the scale of this thing is, take kind of the next step.

29:42I usually try to have one person involved because I find that it helps me move things forward. It's like there's kind of accountability maybe a little bit in that. So like with this book, did you have like an editor you would throw ideas against? Yeah. So I had an early reader, Hugh Howey. Oh, I love Hugh. Hugh is great. And so Hugh was kind of urging on and he was giving advice and I was sharing things with him. And yeah, I mean, he gets a little credit in the book because he was that accountability kind of factor. How did you meet Hugh, by the way? By the way, shout out to Hugh Howey, May 5th.

30:24I'm so looking forward to the science fiction series, Silo, coming out of Apple Plus, based on his great series of self-published novels called Wall. Fantastic, fantastic writer. Yeah, yeah. And Hugh has a fantastic story about how he was, you know, working in a bookstore and made his success by writing chapters and publishing them on Amazon Singles, self-publishing. So I met Hugh, I think, at maybe a Ted Banff gathering. He was there. where Hugh is really good at becoming friends to everybody, right? Once you know Hugh, he's your lifelong friend, and he's really good and really works hard at being a friend.

31:05So I met him briefly, and we've been friends. We've done some great walks together, comes by, stays at our house. So it's really – I would give it all to Hugh, who is just a fantastic professional friend in many ways, because I know that he has lots of friends throughout the world. because he really works at it. He takes it very seriously. And I think that's another skill that you can have is the skill of being a friend. I feel like I need to be better at that skill. I feel like it's very hard for me to keep in touch with people. Why is that? I don't know. I get just caught up in my own activities and then I just don't call people to say, hey, how are you doing?

31:46And I agree with the advice in your book. Like I'm never very transactional either. Like I really like being friends with people. and I'm not transactional, but it's just hard for me to pick up the phone and check in with people. One of the things that I'm doing, taking my own advice is that, you know, I advise don't withhold your praise and compliments to someone until their eulogy, until they're gone. It's always really bizarre. You know, people say the most fantastic things about people at their funeral. It's like, why don't we say those things to their, while they're alive, when they can enjoy it?

32:20Well, usually because they're lying at the funeral, but let's start setting that aside. No, I don't think so. But actually, yeah, you have as advice in the book to earn bliss for just a moment, find someone you barely know or don't know and give them a compliment. Yeah, or thank a teacher that helped you. Yes, that is true. And the other piece of advice is you should attend as many funerals as you can and listen to what people say because, and I unfortunately have that opportunity have that opportunity more and more often these days as they get older. But if you listen to what people say, they almost never talk about that person's achievements.

33:00What they talk about is how that person made them feel, what kind of a person they were while they were achieving, what they were about. And that's very sobering. It's very, very sobering. So I try to keep that in mind with people and not just asking how they're doing, but seeing if I could be of help. There is a great piece of advice for kids, which is instead of asking them, what did you learn today at school? You say, who did you help today at school? Yeah, I like that. Now, you know, speaking of kids, you said in part the inspiration for writing this book was you're writing advice to your children.

33:40And you wrote 68 pieces of advice and they wanted much more. You ended up writing 450 pieces of advice. Yeah. Do you think they follow your advice? Well, so I have three kids, and they're now young adults. We were the opposite of helicopter parents. I don't know what the opposite is. It's like not feral. We were not absent, but we really did not give them a lot of advice. Because I think the kids don't listen to what parents say. They just watch what you do. So we tried to give our advice by modeling it. and so I gave I asked my son after I gave him the copy of the book just the other day and he said yeah I have never heard you say these things but you did teach them to us and I thought okay that worked and there's a very trivial example so neither my wife or I swear that's just sort of how we were, we just never just never swear.

34:46We never had a single conversation about swearing in our family. Never once was there anything about, this is what we say, don't say, this is languages. I mean, or even talked about it. There was never, it was simply never a topic, but none of my kids swear. You know, I didn't ever say, well, you know, you've gotta be careful about this or I care about it. There was just simply, but they were just modeling that behavior. I think this is a very important thing for parents to hear. Like for me, whenever I've told my kids, you have to do this, this is the right way. And it's because of X, Y, Z. Like I might be right, but they're just going to walk away and not listen to me.

35:27Yeah. You really have to live what you say. If you say no phones at the table, but you have your phone, this doesn't work. Yeah. You know? Totally. So, yeah, we don't have phones or screens at tables, but we've never said you can't have it. It's so that we don't have them. They don't have them. Everybody leaves them away. So that's modeling the behavior is sort of how we did it. But having said that, I did like the fact that they're written down because I found them helpful. And that's why I wrote them down originally was I think having this condensed version of them. So I spent most of my time trying to reduce these to a little tiny encapsulated tweet size thing that you could repeat to yourself and that I can repeat to myself.

36:14So like a bit of advice, a practical advice is that if you if you if I lost something in my household and I can't remember where is I eventually find it, then when I'm putting it back, I repeat to myself, don't put it back where I found it. Put it back where I first look for it. And that really works. Put it back where you first look for it. And so that is changing my behavior. And so, because I can repeat that. Or another piece is like, you know, if I'm invited to do something in six months now, I always ask myself, would I do this if it was tomorrow morning? All right. Would I do this if it was tomorrow morning?

36:50What's an example of something where you said no to? Oh, all the time. Like, I mean, I get invited every other day to speak somewhere. And so I'm trying to decide, like, okay, would I learn anything from this? You know, what's the situation, how much trouble it is? And I literally ask myself, would I want to get on a plane tomorrow morning and do this? And so I generally say no, because I think I really don't want to do it tomorrow morning. I need to learn this as well. Like I think when something's like a couple of months away, I almost always, and it seems exciting. I almost always say yes. And then as it gets closer, I'm like, I really don't want to do this.

37:35Tomorrow morning, would I say yes to it? It really works. Tell me about the rule of three in conversation. You write about this in the book. I found this fascinating. There's two rules of three, but the rule of three in conversation is, and this came from Esther Perel, the legendary marriage counselor, which is that when you're having an intimate conversation and you're trying to kind of get to the bottom of something, you have to ask why or what's the story or what do you feel about it at three rounds. So the first round of like, you know, tell me what's going on, whatever it is, is kind of like the, I would say, it's like the cover story.

38:14And then you say, well, you know,

38:19tell me what you really feel or what's really behind that or why you're doing that. Why? Because of the first one. And you hear another explanation, another level of intimacy, but you really need to stick around and press for the third level. Like, okay, really? I get that. That's why you're doing it. But tell me more. And when you get to the third level, that's very, very close to what the actual truth about the situation is. Can you give me an example? Well, if somebody that you know and love maybe is angry at you or something, and you can say, you know, what's going on? and there'll be some explanation about maybe something at work or whatever it is, but then you kind of go further and find out that it's maybe something that there are –

39:21that there's maybe a physical thing that's also prompting this, that there's some level of hurt or, you know, can't sleeping, I haven't been sleeping or I couldn't sleep last night, the last two nights. And then there's, if you press on it, there's a third level of maybe some deeper anxiety that's behind the insomnia that's fundamentally worrying, that's more crucial to the core of the person's being. And that's usually kind of embarrassing to say initially on the first round. So you have to kind of go through the process In a certain sense, you have to earn a kind of trust to be able to hear that true inner story.

40:08I always say there's always a good reason and a real reason. Related to your rule of three, the good reason is sort of just the cover story. Like I always give as an example, my daughter saying she wants to go to the library to study. So that's a good reason. But the real reason might be there's boys at the library. Or she wants to get away from you guys. Yeah, exactly. That's the other real reason.

40:45I love this one. And I've never really thought about this. And at any given point, we're always involved in different negotiations in our life. And you say the four most powerful words in any negotiation is, can you do better? And I wonder, like, let's say, let's say, you know, you're applying for a job, you get a job, the boss offers you a salary and he has this big HR handbook and this is the salary for someone entering in at this level. So, so he makes it seem like there's a formula. That's often also a powerful negotiating technique is to say, I can't do anything about it. It's the formula.

41:22When does can you do better do better than other times? Everybody knows that even in situations where there's a handbook and stuff, they actually can negotiate. I mean, that's the truth is that if they want you bad enough, there is some room for negotiation all the time. But obviously, it works best when there aren't those kind of rules and where there's not a lot of comps. There's a lot of comparables from houses to buying parts to all kinds of things. I would say that the default is most of the times there is some wiggle room and it may not be very much. But as you said, can you do better? And usually the answer is yes, but it may not be very much.

42:10And those who are really good, and I don't consider myself the ace negotiator, but those are really good. go through life and they you know you accumulate those little bits of of differences and they can kind of they can make a difference in aggregate yeah you know even like um and it's really well known that all kinds of services from your how much you pay for your your phone to you know your comcast to insurance there's actually far more room for negotiation and then appears to most people most of us don't even bother with because it is kind of a hassle to get into that negotiation But even those kind of off-the-shelf sticker prices are usually, there's negotiations in them.

42:53Yeah, and it's interesting, too. There's multiple dimensions in negotiating. So it's not just always about money. Can you do better? It might be about benefits or vacation or something you haven't even bought. Right, right, right. There was a pretty well-known, I think it's either This American Life or Radio Lab. I think it was This American Life episode on the Good Guy discount. Have you ever heard about that? Well, apparently, particularly in kind of the retail stores, there was this thing called the good guy discount that all you had to do was ask for the good guy discount. And they would immediately give you like 10%.

43:29And so they were going around just trying that, just kind of walking into stores, buying a T-shirt or something and asking for the good guy discount. And like some percentage of it, maybe a third of the time, they were given the 10 % discount. It was like, what? It was just because they asked for it. And so, yeah, I mean, I remember negotiating even at my local – when I was a kid in high school, a little place where you buy the blue jeans. And there was like I found a pair of Levi's or whatever with the right size and the right in-stream because I'm kind of very short legs. And I bought – I said, I'd like to buy four of these now because for like future, you know and can you give me a discount you know can you do better and even though they were you know they were marked labeled the price tag they negotiated they gave me yeah and so you know earlier you referred to that you're doing art and with the often with the assistance of ai and on the whole i'm very optimistic about ai and its potential for the economy and productivity and our artistry and so on.

44:39But as a writer, I sometimes wonder, will AI learn enough about me, my style, better than me? And this is related to don't be the best, be the only. How can one make sure they're the only, no matter how much AI improves? Right. So I have a recent bit of advice, which is I think a worthy aim in life is to try to become less predictable to such an extent the AI won't be able to predict you and therefore replace you. I like that. I mean, that's what AIs are these days. They're basically autocomplete engines that are predicting the next word based on all the average human responses in the world. and so they're what I call the universal personal intern because they're trained on the average of all human input and they make kind of the average human output and you have to really kind of work with your digital intern to get them beyond that kind of mediocre middle and that's what I think we're going to be doing with them it's not that they I have lots to say about the AI but one they can't there's lots of things they can't do even now based on the way that they're currently built.

45:49But what they're really good at in terms of becoming the only is that they think differently than humans. They don't think like humans. The AI that they, art that they make is weirdly little off. The stuff that they write, even though it's kind of like when it's predictable, the human is human average and not very useful if you want to become the owner, because it's like the average of what everybody would say. And if you nudge them and try to get them and work with them to get them off of that average, they tend to go in kind of ways that no human would go. And that's actually, in my eyes, their benefit, their chief attribute is because they aren't like humans.

46:30And that will use them to help us think differently. So that's how people are using them nowadays as they generate some concepts. It's like, no human would ever think of that. It's kind of weirdly inhuman and it's alien. That's what I call it, the artificial aliens. And so that alienness is actually what we can use for ourselves as we make art to try and move us in directions that we would not normally get to. And then we can try to make it our own. The reason why there was going to be something, at least for this first generation, that they can't do is that I discovered this by trying to make art with them.

47:13There's a whole bunch of art that they can't get to. So theoretically, these engines can make any possible picture. That's, you know, the possibility space of images is huge, and they can generate basically any possible image. But they can't get to them because they have a language interface. That's the big news with the AI. It's not their ability to make images. They can do that for years. But now we have a conversational user interface. We have this conversational interface with them. That's the big bang that everybody's going crazy over is that you have a conversational interface to all kinds of things now, including images.

47:48But what it means is that they can only make images that can be described in language. And there's so much of human art that we make and the art that I've been trying to make that cannot be reduced to words. There's no words that are going to get there. There's no description in language to get there. And because there isn't, these models can't make it. I've been trying to get them to make this kind of art, but I can't put it into words. And so therefore, these image makers can't make it. And so there's lots that we do. Music is one of them. They'll have AI generating music, but a lot of music cannot be described in words.

48:27It's ephemeral. That's the whole point of it. And so we might continue to evolve new interfaces or maybe more musical acoustic ways to work with it. But still, there's parts of it that they cannot reach because the interface doesn't allow them to reach it. And so we are still going to be involved. And I think the major stance and relationship that we want to have and understand with these artificial aliens is as partners for the most part. Most of the time, we're going to be partnering with them to curate stuff. They're not going to replace us. They're our partners. They need us. We need them.

49:09It's like in doctoring, in medicine. You know, yes, right now, almost any human doctor is going to be better than an AI doctor. However, a human and AI team is better than both the AI by itself and the doctor by itself. And lastly, an AI doctor, not as good as a human doctor, but even an AI doctor alone is better than no doctor. which is what most of the people in Rome have. You know, it's interesting. You bring up music and they can't understand, let's say, the text to describe music. But if they're learning on, let's say, Mozart sonatas, the language of notes and chords and so on, they can learn from that.

49:53And so now AI can make a Mozart sonata that experts can't tell is not a Mozart sonata. Sure. And so if you want to make more Mozarts, yes, you can do that. That gets very boring after a while. But if you want to make new music that you want to listen to, they could, in theory, generate the music, but they're not going to arrive there because there's no, I mean, how do we tell them to get there? How do we tell them to do something? How do we correct it? So if they just do some random thing, anything done at random is going to be almost improbably worthless, right? That's the, statistically, if you take a randomly generated book, it's going to be nonsense.

50:34And so the issue is, yes, they in theory could make any string of notes, but to work with them, to get them to go somewhere that's really beautiful that we haven't been to, there's no interface for that. Because other than language or some earlier prompt of existing music, they can do something in between, but how do you get them to fine tune it if you don't have a way to interface? So that's where we are. I think I say it's the first generation. It may be that as we go further, we can have better ways to interface. But that is the thing is that we have intuition and all kinds of other things that transcend language as a means of what we're trying to do.

51:20emotions, of course, and other things. But we don't, the AIs are ignorant of that in a certain sense. They aren't capable of that transcendent ability yet. And so for the time being, for the time around, we are going to work with them to produce something the equivalent of Mozart. They need us. We need them to get there. You know, you mentioned earlier that as you get older, you've gotten more optimistic. And with myself, I feel, particularly recently, I've gotten a bit more pessimistic. Like things are a little bit more, even though, you know, as Mark Twain says, history doesn't repeat, but it rhymes.

52:03And so you can say, okay, this has happened more or less before. I feel like things are more uncertain now than ever before. And that scares me a little bit. Even though I know things have been worse before, like, you know, we've had Vietnam, We've had the civil war. We've had horrible things happen around the world and in this country and to ourselves personally. But lately, somehow, the uncertainty has unnerved me. What's your source of – what are you optimistic about now? So you're right. First of all, I think that is – I was just having this conversation yesterday with somebody who's pretty high up in the tech stack, I might say.

52:40and there is a sense in which there is, I would say, greater uncertainty. And just because of the speed at which things are moving, the way that we're moving into new territory, there is a sense in which we really haven't been here before. This is really new territory. And that is uncertainty. And then you have the speed of change that kind of like saying, well, what I used to know may not really apply. I'm not really sure if it does. So how can I be optimistic in this? Well, I think a couple sources of my optimism. One is a sense of history. The more I think about the future, the more I read about history, the more I know about the history, the more I'm convinced that progress is real, right?

53:23So progress is real. And all the ingredients that we have for progress are still present. So statistically, it's going to continue. The progress will continue. It could stop tomorrow, but it's just unlikely to because all the ingredients for progress in the past are still present going forward. So progress. And that's, again, a global average. That's sort of on average. It doesn't mean that everywhere, there's obviously places in the world like Ukraine, that's probably going to have a really couple of bad years coming up. It's like, you can't be optimistic about that. And so the second source of my optimism is going back to this idea of trusting strangers.

54:05And I think what optimism you're doing is you're kind of trusting the future. You're trusting that it's not that our problems are fewer and smaller than we think they are. It's that our capacity to solve problems is greater than we thought and probably increasing faster than our abilities to make problems. So if we can create 1 % more than we destroy every year, that 1 % difference, even if a half a percent difference, is compounded over time. And that's sort of where the optimism comes, is that we can compounded interest, compounded benefits. So even a tiny 1%, a half percent difference, which is not visible.

54:47You can't see it. You look around and you see all this crap and terrible and harm and stuff. But all we need is 1 % more good than bad, and that 1 % is sufficient over time. So yeah, I can easily agree to the huge amount of terrible stuff in the world, but all I need is 1 % more good, and I can be optimistic. Yeah, I guess that's interesting. And I wonder, because on the one hand, you see all the progress in biotech, genomics, alternative energy, AI, robotics, and on and on. I could go on and on. And I wonder if it gets disconnected, at least in my head, from, oh, they're going to raise interest rates so high that everybody's going to go broke.

55:40There's going to be a depression, blah, blah, blah. I don't know how to connect the two like I normally would. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's, you know, if one thing is that bad news happens faster than good news. The bad happens fast. Good takes time. And part of another way to be optimistic, another reason why I'm optimistic is taking the long view, either in the past as well as the future. But by nature, media news is about bad stuff because that's what happens on the short term is mostly bad. Good stuff takes a longer time to happen. So if you only read headlines or make headlines every 100 years instead of the last five minutes, the headlines would be completely different.

56:29They'd all be good news. Lifespans up. Security increases. um violent deaths are decreasing and so the nature the nature of news in general no matter where its source is is that it's going to report on the bad thing that's happened in the last 12 hours because the good stuff doesn't happen at that speed and so you if you when as you take a longer and longer view if you start to think generationally about how to be a good ancestor and you elevated, that elevated horizon can accommodate all kinds of fairly major setbacks and disasters because in the longer term, they don't matter as much. They can be a good compounding good of a few percent a year can actually overcome those kinds of setbacks.

57:22I love the advice in your book, to be a good ancestor, plant a tree. Yeah. That's one of the... Because that exemplifies what you're saying. A tree will ultimately be a huge part of any ecosystem, but it takes a long time. It's not going to make a headline, Kevin Kelly planted a tree. So, yeah. So when I was 17, I lived and I grew up in New Jersey. And I'm back here. Where in New Jersey? In Western New Jersey. And I planted a seedling, a little seedling that had spread it from the acorn. The acorn was still attached to it. And I planted it in our backyard. And I said, I want to come back here in 50 years and see a big tree.

58:05And I had my 50th high school reunion last year. And I went back. And the tree was there. And it was a huge 100-foot oak tree that I planted when I was 17. 100 foot. 100 foot. It was just, yes, it was beautiful. and you know the old saying the best time to plant a tree was 50 years ago the second best time is today so we want to think generationally and when you do that you can become more optimistic and that forces and that's thinking about the future and trying to make a future that we want to live in requires us to imagine it it's not going to happen accidentally inadvertently we're not going to have a great set of technologies that work in the future and a kind of a social system accidentally, we have to kind of imagine it first.

59:00And the future is built by people who believe that it's possible to make it. And that active autism means that, you know, the future is and to present is actually shaped by optimists. What else happened at your 50th high school reunion? Were you glad you went? What did you learn? The surprise to me, this is a self-selected set of people, but the surprise to me was the number of people who had never left the area. Of course, that is self-selecting because they're more likely to come to the reunion. That was one thing. The other thing, the thing that I did, I gave myself a little assignment. I wanted to talk to I had a class of almost 1 ,000.

59:46I want to talk to all the people, all the kids that I never spoke to in my class, and I didn't even know were in my class. And so that was my assignment was not talking to my close friends, but to kind of meet classmates that I went through high school with and never once had a conversation with. And that was great because there were a bunch of people who went very different paths than I do. You know, this was, I graduated in 1970. There was a guy who joined the military, joined the army, voluntarily. It's like, what? This is like Vietnam War is going on. It's crazy. Anyway, his life was very, you know, it was very interesting.

1:00:29He eventually became a pilot and then a traffic controller. And it's like, there was an entire world that I didn't know anything about. So for me, that was the joy. And that's, you know, just in general, I find you're a very curious person. You learn, it seems like you try to learn from everybody and every experience around you. And I really admire that. I try to do that myself, but you're very successful at that. And, you know, one thing you say, and I think this is one of the most powerful pieces of advice you have, is when someone is nasty or mean to you, assume they have a disease. Yeah. Treat it as if it was a disease is how I say it.

1:01:11Right. Because it allows you to have sympathy instead of anger for them. Just assume that there's a little bit like, well, maybe they can't help it. There's some reason for it there. If I sat down, maybe I'd understand it and it'd be kind of like not justified, but at least understandable. And so I find that easier to say, well, somebody is kind of really, really nasty. It's like, oh, they have a brain tumor. It's like, because actually that happened that was based on on something that happened when i was in high school was a a girl in my class her dad became really really terrible and then he suddenly died and they on top he discovered he had this really huge brain tumor it was like ah ah okay what if we all knew that we would have been a little bit more forgiving, you know, working with that.

1:02:03That would have been a huge difference. And so now I just like, I just kind of go forward and say, yeah, they have a brain tumor. Let me ask you a question. Like you're such a revered person in, you know, anybody who knows you and anybody who knows your work. When was the last time someone was nasty to you? Someone you knew? Someone that I knew. Oh.

1:02:26Well, okay. I have a relative who got very, very upset. I mean, it's a very complicated story. Yeah, very, very angry at me for something that I was trying to do in their lives. and um uh so we you know we had a cooling off period that helped a lot and i just so so yeah i treated as if something that there was a reason that there was a reason behind it that i didn't know about that i'm going to assume i'll find out later and the answer was to cool down and then i I saw him recently and it was perfectly fine. He was in much better spirits. The thing that was causing this kind of conflict hadn't really been resolved, but it had been, what's the word I want, accommodated.

1:03:26So rather than kind of escalating things, yeah, kind of like how you de-escalate it. And there was a little bit of kind of like trying to, empathy, it's a form of empathy, really, of you're trying to say, well, I don't even know what it is, but I know that there's probably, again, we didn't have that three-level conversation. That would have been really good, but that was something that was not going to happen at that time. So I just assume that if we got down to the third level, that there would be something that would be helpful. That's a good piece of advice too, to assume there's a third level.

1:04:00Right. Like basically every mine has gold at the bottom in there somewhere. So one piece of advice is I think that we only see 2 % of the other person and they only see 2 % of us. and you have to kind of just account for the fact that there's 98 % of something going on that you're not aware of. And that's just my default stance is like, yeah, yeah, you know, there's James, there's, you see 2 % of me and there's 98 % that you're not seeing that's going on behind me, whatever it is. And that's just my assumption. And so you have kind of a calculate in that form. Well, for part of the other 98%, though, we do have your book, Excellent Advice for Living, Wisdom I Wish I'd Known Earlier.

1:04:47It's an important subtitle, by the way, because everybody says, oh, I never regret anything. I do believe in regrets, and I wish I had more wisdom when I was younger. But thankfully, now I have your book, Excellent Advice for Living. And by way just general advice books are usually pretty bad yeah but your advice is as you as you could point out is is generational like your thousand true fans is gonna that advice is gonna live forever your b b don't be the best be the only this is gonna live forever so much of your advice in this book i mean i started just you know bookmarking almost every page but it's it's a beautiful book.

1:05:28It's beautiful advice. It's really worth thinking about. And I super enjoyed this conversation. It's almost like I treated this as a private therapy conversation. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for that. I really enjoyed the conversation. And we're having so much fun that I realized that I actually overstayed my time and I have to run right now to my next one. I did want to ask you advice, but I'll do it some other time. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks again. I really had a blast as usual. Yeah, thanks Kevin. Thanks so much for coming back on.