How to Argue with a Narcissist! How to Identify a Narcissist + Key Secrets & Rules You Don’t want to Break w/Jefferson Fisher

0:00How do you argue with a narcissist? How do you talk to a narcissist? How do you most effectively communicate with a narcissist? I am so excited for today's episode and back by popular demand, communication phenom and trial attorney Jefferson Fisher is here to talk with you and me today about the key secrets and rules you don't want to break for arguing with a narcissist, whether at home, in friendships, or in the workplace, and how it impacts all areas of our lives. Jefferson Fisher is a trial lawyer, a fifth-generation, award-winning attorney, writer, and speaker. His work has gained him millions of followers all over the world through short, simple, practical social media videos teaching people how to argue less and Talk More.

0:52Whether it's handling a heated conversation, dealing with a difficult personality, or standing your ground with confidence, Jefferson helps you communicate during life's everyday arguments and conversations, and his brand new book called The Next Conversation, Argue Less, Talk More, is out now. Jefferson says you can change everything about your life by what you say next. And you and I are in for a treat because Jefferson has stepped away from his busy legal practice. He got on an airplane. He flew here to be with you and me today. Whether you're listening for yourself or because someone that you love shared this episode with you, I want to welcome you to the Jamie Kern Lima Show podcast family.

1:37Remember, this episode is not just for you and me, please share this with every single person you know because it can change their life too. Before we jump into this episode, I'd be so grateful if you take two seconds to click on the follow or subscribe button on the app you're listening or watching the podcast on. It'll help you because you're going to be the very first to get the episodes and it's going to help the show because by you following it, it's more likely to be promoted to others to discover. And if you leave a five-star review, that would be even more amazing. And just thank you so much.

2:13This is our show together, and it truly means so much to me.

2:17Jefferson Fisher: Jamie Kern Lima is her name. Everybody needs Jamie Kern Lima in their life. Jamie Kern Lima. Jamie, you're so inspiring. Jamie Kern Lima. Jefferson Fisher, welcome to the Jamie Kern Lima Show. Thank you so much for having me, Jamie. I'm honored to be here. I'm so excited you're here. Wow. What has happened with you, with your advice, with your videos, it has become a phenomenon. Thank you. You're very sweet. Thank you. Yeah, it's truly been a blessing. And right now, I'm just holding on. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm excited so much to dive into today, Narcissus. Okay. Okay. Narcissist. Jefferson Fisher.

3:03Some of your most viewed videos are about how to handle narcissists in our life. So many people have a narcissist who's a parent.

3:13Jefferson Fisher: Right. Or, and they didn't even know what that meant until a year ago. And now they're like, whoa, I was raised with that. Or perhaps it's a partner or it's friends. In your new book, The Next Conversation, right? Yes. Argue less, talk more. So many great tools. I read it cover to cover and I'm already applying some of the tools to my life right now, which I'm so grateful for. I'm so excited for everyone to pick up their copy. And we get so many questions. Oh, my gosh. I get emails. I get DMs, right, about how does being with a narcissist impact my self-worth? How do I know if I'm a narcissist?

3:54I get that question a lot. So just to ask you off the top, how do you define a narcissist? And how does somebody know if there's one in their life or if they're one?

4:09Jefferson Fisher: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, let me get this out of the gate. If you're asking the question, if you're a narcissist, here's the clue. That tells you you're not the narcissist. And you actually have the emotional awareness to ask that question or even care to ask that question. ones that are true narcissists not just people who have narcissistic tendencies they are somebody who just exhibits maybe toxic behaviors every now and then we're talking about the people that are tried and true they are a narcissistic person they don't have empathy they don't do empathy they only do themselves i mean they have to be the best out of everything they they can't take the idea that they are not better than who they're sitting across from.

4:56Jefferson Fisher: Who has the better ideas? Who said the better thing? You compliment somebody, they need to put them down to make themselves feel better. It is a continuous loop with these type of personalities that they want praise and control from you at all times. When we find ourselves in an argument with a narcissist, what do we do and what don't we do? Right. Number one is you need to acknowledge what you're in. What you're in is a game. It's a game I call praise or provoke. And when you're in a conversation with a narcissist, an argument doesn't matter. You're playing a good game and it looks beatable. It looks like you could convince them.

5:42Jefferson Fisher: If you could only get them to understand how it affects you, if you could only get them to acknowledge what they did was wrong, then everything would be okay. Then you could fix them. But the game is rigged. It's like a carnival game. It was built against you. You're not going to win. So it's a game of praise or provoke, meaning if you're not giving them praise, if you're not saying how great they are, then they will turn to provoke you to cause an argument because they delight in your praise just as much they delight in your anger, in your emotion, in your response. It's the same thing. They're getting that sense of control that I can control and manipulate your emotions.

6:31Jefferson Fisher: So if you ever feel like you're in this circle with somebody, a circular argument with somebody who's a narcissist, they are trying to take a hold of your emotions and they're feeding off. They feed off of you getting angry at what they said. They like that. When they can jab you and you get mad at that, they like that kind of thing. So it is something that you need to first acknowledge your and praise or provoke. Number two, like we talked about with gaslighters, you need to use as few words as possible, meaning you just acknowledge what they said, but you don't have to engage in what they said.

7:02Jefferson Fisher: You're adding that stiff form of distance. Simple as, I hear you. Noted. That's good to know. Just short, concise, indifferent responses that you're just not feeding into what they're saying. It's not going to get you there. When that happens, they just don't have anywhere to go with it. Three is, you just need to know when to walk away. No response is very much a response. If you think that somebody didn't answer your text for five minutes, that just might say something. They didn't answer it for five days. Well, that says something else. So the power of the pause and the silence by not responding to it at all is often the most powerful move you can make.

7:47What do you do if you realize somebody really close to you?

7:51Jefferson Fisher: Yeah. And you're like, whoa, you just started realizing all the signs and it's like exactly them to a T. Yeah. what do you do? Well, it depends on that relationship. If it's one that you need to nurture and you really care about it, you've been dealing with these symptoms. Now you just have a way to define it. It doesn't change what you do. It doesn't change how you approach it. It's just now you have a label to put on that behavior. Because the term, I think narcissist was really even used until here lately of now it's, we see these kinds of tendencies everywhere and the way they show up and go, oh my gosh, yes, this person's a total narcissist.

8:36Jefferson Fisher: Well, or it's also used sometimes as just a put down for somebody says something you don't like, oh, they're a total narcissist. They just disagreed with you. So it's very easy to throw around. You say somebody's in your life and you're starting to see these signs that they're exhibiting, I think it is worth the conversation at least once of what you're seeing and what you're worried about. Most likely they're going, if they are a narcissist, they're going to totally disagree and they are going to make it even worse. That conversation's probably not going to go well, but the point is you at least said what you needed to say to get it out to them.

9:14Jefferson Fisher: So next would be just the understanding of, okay, how do I go back to it? You're going to see the praise and provoke. You're going to see that you need to just use very short words, and you need to walk away from conversations anytime that it comes up. This is, to your point, it's such a, I mean, it's such a word that, and a concept, and narcissistic tendencies is something that people, so many people are just starting to hear about or learn about or research. and I think a lot of people have realized they were maybe raised by a parent who was one. Some people are worried they have a child that's exhibiting those kind of tendencies.

9:55And I think what you're saying is, okay, once you realize all that, well, you've already been dealing with it for a long time, right? So then one thing that we can do is go, okay, well, how do I respond? So when an argument starts, now how do I stand my power to not get taken down the path? There's so much more coming up in this episode. You are not going to want to miss it. But first, I wanted to share this with you. In life, you don't soar to the level of your hopes and dreams. You stay stuck at the level of your self-worth. When you build your self-worth, you change your entire life. And that's exactly why I wrote my new book, Worthy, How to Believe You Are Enough and Transform Your Life for You.

10:46If you have some self-doubt to destroy and a destiny to fulfill, Worthy is for you. In Worthy, you'll learn proven tools and simple steps that bring life-changing results, like how to get unstuck from the things holding you back. Build unshakable self-love. Unlearn the lies that lead to self-doubt and embrace the truths that wake up worthiness. Overcome limiting beliefs and imposter syndrome. Achieve your hopes and dreams by believing you are worthy of them and so much more. Are you ready to unleash your greatness and step into the person you were born to be? Imagine a life with zero self-doubt and unshakable self-worth.

11:36Get your copy of Worthy plus some amazing thank you bonus gifts for you at worthybook.com or the link in the show notes below. Imagine what you'd do if you fully believed in you. It's time to find out with Worthy. Imagine, what would you do if you fully believed in you? My weekly free inspirational newsletter is packed with tips and tools to help you find out. It's called One-on-One with Jamie, and it's delivered right to your inbox each Tuesday morning. It's a love letter from me to you, from my soul to yours. and I hope it brings you the words and messages you need at just the right moment. Plus, when you're a part of my free inspirational newsletter community, you'll be the first to get behind-the-scenes content, inspirational messages, and be the first to learn about upcoming events and more.

12:39It's the place to be, and I sure hope you'll join me there. So if you're not on the list yet, you can sign up for free at jamiekernlima.com or click the link in the show notes below. And here's to becoming unstoppable together. And now more of this incredible conversation together. I think what you're saying is, okay, once you realize all that, well, you've already been dealing with it for a long time, right? So then, you know, one thing that we can do is go, okay, well, how do I respond, right? So when an argument starts, now how do I stay in my power to not get taken down the path? Because whenever I've gotten in discussions or disagreements with people who have narcissistic tendencies, you don't ever feel like you reach a point where they get it or where you're heard or seen or understood.

13:40or even if you try to hear, see, and understand them, you don't ever feel like that's sufficient and it just is a thing forever. And so whether it's someone who is in having to navigate, whether it's arguing or communicating with a narcissist at work or somebody in their life, what are your best tips for just how, okay, you can't control them. Of course, you can decide in most cases, if it's a personal relationship, what are you going to do about that? Are you going to change the relationship you have with them or not? Sometimes at work, you can't necessarily change that. But that aside and just saying it is what it is, what are some things that we can do to make sure we don't go down the rabbit hole?

14:36We don't get sucked into it. We don't do the wrong thing. And we also try to protect our peace.

14:43Jefferson Fisher: Yeah. Number one would be understanding that you don't need an apology to make your feelings valid. Like they did something to hurt you, but they're a narcissist and you keep trying to say, or they have narcissistic tendencies. And you keep trying to say like, you owe me an apology. Like you don't understand I'm saying I need you to say this, that, or the other. and so we sit in that space of thinking I need this from them. Correct. Okay, and you're saying, we say that one more time? Yeah, you don't need an apology to validate your feelings. You don't need an apology from them to validate your feelings.

15:17Jefferson Fisher: It doesn't, having them apologize is not the condition by which you are going to determine whether what you felt was real or not. And when you sit there and go, I am so hurt, can you please just see how I, if you could only see how this hurt me and you try to re-explain it, it is rigged carnival game. Rigged carnival game because they don't have empathy. It's not happening. You're asking them to do something that they can't do. Yes, it looks beatable. It should be beatable, but it's not. And so you have to come to the realization that looking for that apology, it's not going to happen, and you don't need it to convince yourself that your feelings were justified and real.

15:58Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And what about to heal? Do you need their acknowledgement or their apology to do that? A lot of people think they do, but yeah. What do you say to that?

16:16Jefferson Fisher: To me, the apology is always for the other person, not for you. You could say something hurtful, and it's totally up to me, my choice. Do I catch it or do I let it go? The apology is really for you to understand what you did was an error. It was a foul ball. Can you acknowledge to me, it's what you're saying when you apologize. Can you acknowledge to me that was a foul ball? Yeah, that was a foul ball. It has nothing to do with I need that. I cannot heal. I cannot move one step forward unless I have this apology from you. The apology is not for you. It's for them. when a narcissist is behaving that way, they're not going to.

16:56Jefferson Fisher: So you're not going to get it. So you just have the power within yourself. It's that power of detachment, of saying, they're going to be who they're going to be. I'm going to be who I'm going to be. And it goes back to whose voice are you listening to? And that you don't need an apology, their aha moment, the light bulb to click. If only you think you could just change them, they'll be everything that you want and they'll finally see it. That's not going to happen. The power is all within yours. You don't need that to heal. Remember this episode is not just for you and me. Please share this with every single person you know, because it can change their life too.

17:37Make sure to pick up Jefferson's new book, The Next Conversation. Argue less, talk more. And And check out his brand new Jefferson Fisher School of Communication. We'll link it in the show notes. And if you love today's episode too, well, my only ask is you please click on the follow or subscribe button for the show on the app that you're listening or watching it on. Then give it a five-star review and then share this episode with everyone you believe in. Share it with another person in your life who could benefit from it. Post it and share it with others online or in your community who just might need the words and tools and lessons in this episode today.

18:16You never know whose life you're meant to change today by sharing this episode. Just thank you so much for joining me. And before you go, I wanted to share some words with you that couldn't be more true. You right now, exactly as you are, are enough and fully worthy. You're worthy of your greatest hopes, your wildest dreams, and all the unconditional love in the world. It's an honor to welcome you to each episode of the Jamie Kern Lima Show. And here, I hope you'll come as you are and heal where you need. Blossom what you choose, journey toward your calling, and stay as long as you like because you belong here.

18:58You are worthy. You are loved. You are love. And I love you. And I cannot wait to join you on the next episode of the Jamie Kern Lima Show. Do you struggle with negative self-talk? Living with a constant mental narrative that you're not good enough is exhausting. I know because I spent most of my life in that habit. The words you say to yourself about yourself are so powerful. And when you learn to take control over your self-talk, it's life-changing. And I wanted to give you a free resource that I created for you if this is something that could benefit your life. It's called Five Ways to Overcome Negative Self-Talk and Build Self-Love.

19:47And it's a free how-to guide to overcome that negative self-talk to build confidence and develop unshakable self-love so that you can dream big and keep going in the pursuit of your goals. Don't let self-sabotaging thoughts hinder your progress any longer. It's time to rewrite the script of your life when filled with self-love, resilience, and unwavering belief. If you're ready to take charge of your narrative, build unwavering confidence, and empower yourself to persevere on the path to your dreams, you can grab your free guide to stop overthinking and learn to trust yourself at jamiekernlima.com slash resources or click the link in the show notes below.

20:34Who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self-belief. And I'd love to hang out with you even more, especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration, which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to jamiekernlima.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your one-on-one with Jamie weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you. If you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy, and love hitting your inbox, I'm your girl.

21:25Subscribe at jamiekernlima.com or in the link in the show notes.

21:29Jefferson Fisher: I am so excited for this book. You know why? Because it's going to save so many people. It's going to save you. Worthy, your new beautiful book, Worthy. Get this book. This book, I'm telling you, it's a book that can change anybody's life who picks it up. Anybody who's ever felt that they were not good enough, didn't measure up, something's missing in your life, I have to tell you. It's powerful. It's happening. It's worth it. Imagine what would you do if you fully believed in you. I went from struggling waitress facing nonstop rejection to founder of It Cosmetics, a billion dollar company by learning how to overcome self-doubt and believe I'm worthy of my hopes and dreams.

22:21And I'm sharing how you can too in my new book, Worthy, How to Believe You Are Enough and Transform Your Life. If you're ready to truly trust yourself and break through that barrier of self-doubt and know that where you come from or even where you are right now doesn't determine where you're going then worthy is for you it's time to go from doubting you're enough to knowing you're enough it's time to step into all of who you are and into the person you were born to be and it's time to believe that you are worthy of it because in life we don't become what we want we become what we believe we're worthy of.

23:06Join the Worthy movement today by grabbing your copy of Worthy anywhere books are sold and head to worthybook.com now for free gifts, including my five-part course on becoming unstoppable and my 95-page Worthy workbook action plan that teaches you how to implement the tools from the book into your real life right now.

23:30Jefferson Fisher: Worthy is groundbreaking. Oh my God! Worthy, you are worthy! This book is going to change lives. This book literally will teach you how to actually feel worthy so that you can have the strength, you can have the confidence. The lessons in this book and the strategies will change your life. You will never be the same again after you read this book. Jamie's book Worthy is a must read. It is going to inspire you, empower you, give you the hope that you need and the kick in the rear end that you deserve. Jamie's book Worthy is incredible. The gifts are going away, but they're all free right now on worthybook.com.

24:10It's such an honor to share this podcast together with you. And please note, I'm not a licensed therapist and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional.