1003: Husband's Bro's Obscene, But He Won't Intervene | Feedback Friday

22:03maybe it did in the past, but less so now, but there does seem to be some resistance to really taking it in. Chris's feeling was that it is an obstacle to getting better, and that stance can make somebody not very coachable. Chris shared an interesting saying with us, which is that if you're explaining, you're losing. So if you're busy explaining to people, people who are trying to help you, why they're wrong and you're right, or yeah, you might come across that way, but it's not your intention, that itself is the barrier to improving. And as Chris pointed out, just engaging in that kind of justification, that actually does sound a little condescending.

22:37So being coachable, this is a skill. It's the skill that underlies developing every other skill in life. Part of our jobs as human beings is being good students of whoever can teach us. Now, the challenge for us is that it's hard to coach somebody on a specific quality on a podcast. What I can tell you, though, is your job right now is to drop all these justifications, these explanations, this resistance to this note, and just let it in. Owning that you have this I'm better than you or I know more than you tone sometimes, that doesn't have to be some huge personal failing or a point of shame. Although the fact that it is, which I suspect is why you're fighting the note a little bit here, that is meaningful.

23:14So one thing you might wanna do is ask yourself why this note doesn't sit well with you. Maybe it's just been difficult for you to work on, which again, I get it, I've been there myself and that's normal. But I also wonder if this note hits on some deeper level. Maybe it exposes a tender spot in your personality, it rubs up against some core vulnerability or value or self-concept of yours. For example, that you're not the kind of person who condescends or that you don't have some important things to work on or that you shouldn't struggle with anything in general. So to really let this note in and go, huh, okay, maybe there is a part of me, even like if it's a small part of me, even if it's unconscious, that does kind of want to be superior to other people, that does want to know more than the other person, that does want to be the teacher as opposed to the student, that might actually be kind of wounding on some level.

24:04And as I'm sure you know, wherever there's a wound or just a tender spot, those are the pressure points we tend to protect, and those are the points where shame can creep in. And one defense against that shame is to just be superior, to be knowledgeable, to assert control. And my hunch is that is at the root of this problem of yours, or at least that's playing a role. So if you want to work on this, and I know you do, it's time to start looking at that stuff. I personally think that there's great value in doing this kind of introspection and sussing out the root of the impulse to defend against feedback of all kinds, because that's also a theme in your story, and resolving that underlying defense, I think that's probably going to be a game changer across your life.

24:45Well said, Jordan, I completely agree. But look, even if you don't want to dig into all that stuff, you can still work on the condescension piece just by catching yourself every time you feel the urge to go, well, I'm actually doing this from a place of love or, you know, like, oh, yeah, I know I could be a little holier than thou sometimes, but I don't mean to be. It's just how I talk. Just stop doing that and just sit in the tension of the note that you're getting for a moment and let it in. At that point, what you'll find, I think, is that some really interesting options open up for you. One option is to just listen.

25:17You know, you can just notice what getting a note brings up for you, where you might tense up, where you might get a little angry, where you might get a little anxious. you can hang in the feeling of, oh, wow, I actually don't really know what I'm supposed to be doing or saying right now. Or, oh, interesting, my impulse is to be the guy who knows better, but maybe I don't know better. So let me find out what it's like to show up in this conversation not as that guy. You know, maybe it's as somebody who's a little more uncertain, somebody a little bit rawr, basically somebody who's more vulnerable.

25:45And the beauty of that vulnerability, especially in your line of work, is that that is the quality that creates trust and rapport, which is exactly what you're hoping to achieve. Exactly. I have this feeling that just embracing this note and letting himself live in the discomfort a little more, that might be like 80 % of fixing the behavior, which is actually really exciting. I also want to recommend a book that I think would be great for you. It's called Becoming Coachable. It was actually recommended to us by our bud, Michelle Tillis Letterman, a terrific executive coach. I think she might even be quoted in the book, but don't quote me on that.

26:16And the whole book, as you can tell from the title, is about cultivating the mindsets and processes that make you coachable, becoming the best possible student so that other people can help you. So that's your move, my man, just slowly dropping this defense, letting it in, seeing what happens. I mean, look, these people obviously told you that because they want to see you succeed. And I'm pumped for you because I've struggled with this in my own life at certain moments. I'm sure Gabe maybe has too. For sure. It's really exciting. And honestly, it's inspiring to find out what you're capable of when you just stop resisting people who are trying to help you.

26:46So good on you for getting to this point. Keep letting the note in, and I know it'll take you to some amazing places. And hey, I really hope I managed to say all this without being condescending myself. Hard to do on an advice show without coming across like we know more than you, except of course, of course we do. And that's why you listen, and you should be thanking us for fixing your life. No, I'm kidding. You've got this, man. These people want to help you. We want to help you. You already know where the problem is. You've got this. Good luck. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

27:16Keep your emails concise. Use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you were scammed out of tens of thousands of dollars with your pants literally around your ankles, your business partner of decades is now ghosting you, or you're struggling to grieve for a parent who also did real harm to people in your life, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up, friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. All right, next step. Hello, Jordan and Gabe. I've been living in the U.S. for almost 20 years, and during my recent visit home to France, I had several conversations with my sister and brother-in-law about climate change.

27:51They are obsessed with it and have taken many measures to decrease their carbon footprint. They stopped flying five years ago, and my nephew has also become eco-anxious. The thing is, I love music and concerts, and there's a festival in France where many artists that I love and haven't toured in a while will be performing, and I want to go. That would involve flying there just for four days for a festival, not really a green gesture. I'm concerned about how my sister will see that, and whether it'll create tension between us. I tried to test the waters, joking that she could meet me there, it's just a train ride away, and added that I was torn because it's not really climate-friendly.

28:30She replied, well, when I hesitate, I think about my kids in 2050 and the decision is made. Yikes. The problem is that I really want to go. I've spent many years isolated, and I feel like I want to live again, meet people, see those artists I love, and dance the night away. But I'm afraid my relationship with my sister is going to take a big hit, that I'm going to be the person who doesn't care about her kid's future, and that she's going to give me a horrible guilt trip in addition to hating me. I've always tried to be reasonable and pay attention to how I impact the climate. I recycle, I don't buy fast fashion, I'm vegan, I've limited my plane trips.

29:07to about four per year, but I also believe that the individual actions of millions of people like you and me will never have a significant impact as long as the big polluters and wealthy people flying on private jets don't do their part. Our individual actions are just a drop in the ocean. I could go to the fest and try to hide it from her, but she would eventually find out. Would you go to the fest? Is this unreasonable? If I were to go, how best to discuss and handle this whole thing with my sister signed looking for a blueprint to discuss this matter of my footprint. It's a great question and such an interesting conflict to have with a family member.

29:42So it is, I mean, to cut to the chase here. No, I do not think you wanting to attend this festival is unreasonable. And I absolutely think you should go if this will be fun, stimulating and if it's going to be a meaningful trip for you. Your sister and her family, I mean, they're not wrong about the climate. It's obviously changing and it's a huge concern for many people, for most of us, I would assume. But these sacrifices they're making, in a way, they're very noble. And they're probably the changes that we all need to make if we want to make a difference. And I admire them on some level. But what I don't agree with is her imposing those values on you, expecting that you curtail your life in the way that they have guilt tripping you if you're not as militant about climate change as they are.

30:22Well, especially because all of the way she is contributing to the solution. Right. She recycles, which, you know, mixed picture about how useful recycling actually is. We covered that on Skeptical Sunday. That was episode 680. But the intention is good. She doesn't buy H &M tank tops that fall apart every six weeks. She limits her plane travel. She's vegan. Right. I knew you would pick up on that part, obviously. I mean, obviously I'm biased, but I'm not even talking about the ethics about it. Just the impact of being vegan on your carbon footprint is very real and it's significant. Yeah, for sure.

30:50Look, this is why people don't like you guys. I read in the New York Times recently that people who are plant-based account for 75 % less in greenhouse gas emissions than people who eat more than three and a half ounces of meat a day, which by the way, that is not a lot of meat. I guarantee you that I eat more than that, for sure. And a vegan diet definitely does less harm to land, water, biodiversity, all that. I'm not vegan, obviously, I have no plans to be vegan, but I can't deny that the data is real. So she's already making a huge difference to the planet here, possibly even more than her sister and brother-in-law and their child, assuming they're not vegan, which I gather they're not.

31:24I mean, also one of the best, uncomfortable thing to talk about, but one of the best ways to help the planet is to not have children. But she didn't do that because she wanted a child. No. Yeah. Who, by the way, she's giving that child eco-anxiety, which is another thing that concerns me. Let me come back to that. Another study I recently read, I looked it up actually again, adding a child to the planet adds up to 9 ,441 metric tons of carbon dioxide to the environment. That's equivalent to adding more than 2 ,100 gas-powered vehicles on the road for a year or powering nearly 1 ,200 homes for the same time period.

32:00So for a year. And it's funny because this article I read that quotes this study, it literally says that catching a flight from Washington, D.C. to Paris, that specific trip would increase your carbon footprint by about one metric ton. One. Their kid, 9 ,441. Screw you, sis. But look, I mean, yes and no. No, I mean, she wanted the joy of having a family more than she wanted to avoid creating another big carbon footprint in the world, which is fair. That's her choice. But when her sister wants to do something that's joyful to her, she's unethical and she's compromising her child's future. Right.

32:34That doesn't add up to me. No, it doesn't add up at all. You know what's compromising your child's future? Other kids and people having them. Look, she'd probably say that having a child is more important than catching frickin' Macklemore at a festival or whatever. But again, that's not her business. Also, she's not single-handedly ruining the environment, right? She touched on the collective action problem, and she's right about that. But more to the point, she is not the only person responsible for ruining her nephew's future or potentially ruining her nephew's future just because, you know, she took a easy jet to Carcassonne to go catch MGMT in concert.

33:08Like, that doesn't make sense. That's what really grinds my gears, right? How her sister is personalizing this and making it her problem when she is the tiniest part of this and arguably doing more for the environment than she is. So this just strikes me as a, it's very presumptuous and very unfair. I mean, she's not going, you know, I want to go take Molly and see the Chainsmokers perform and melt my face off. She's been isolated for years. She wants to go meet people. She wants to dance. She wants to have an experience that matters too. Totally agree. Hopefully the lineup is better than the Chainsmokers, but the point still stands.

33:37So no, I'd like them. I work out to them sometimes, but you know, hopefully you get some more diversity on that lineup. So the way you communicate that to your sister is, listen, sis, I know how you feel about plane travel and I get it. I really do. But I've thought a lot about this trip. It feels important for me to have this experience. It matters to me. So I'm going to do it. And I know it might not sit well with you. And if it doesn't, I respectfully ask that you not give me a hard time about the carbon footprint of it all. And it's not that I disagree with you. I share your view to a large degree.

34:05But, you know, I already take a lot of steps to minimize my carbon footprint, right? In part because of our conversations. And I don't want to miss my life because I'm worried that you are going to make me feel bad about it. So you're welcome to have whatever opinion you have. And I respect it, but please don't guilt trip me for taking a plane to go have this really cool, meaningful trip that I really need right now. I mean, that's basically the script. And by the way, you don't have to say all of that in advance. Maybe you just say half of it, book the trip. And then if she gives you a hard time, which, you know, maybe she won't, maybe she'll surprise you.

34:33But if she does give you a hard time, then you can say the rest of it. I like it. I might leave out Gabe as well. If you care so much about Gaia, you shouldn't have had a kid. I might leave out that little argument. Definitely do not include that. That is not going to win you any points with your sister. But the thing is, it's true, which apparently makes me a monster being the progenitor of not one, but two additional carbon-based pollution machines. But I can live with that. At the end of the day, are we going to what? We're going to stop having kids? No. I mean, we can stop doing a zillion other things that pollute way more.

35:02Sorry. I didn't want to be the one to bring it up, but yes, you are basically an ecological terrorist. Guilty. And you need to live with that. But you know, you do balance it up by putting out a good show. So exactly. I'm reducing my carbon footprint by producing episodes about fast fashion and the hidden cost of cobalt mining. That's my offset. You're welcome, Greenpeace. But listen, what I'm actually the most interested in here in your story is why your sister gets to you so much. I believe you when you say that she guilt trips you, that she might even hate you for prioritizing your life. But for her to affect you so deeply, there must be a part of you that is quite vulnerable to her opinions, to her feelings.

35:36And I wonder if it was always that way between you or if this is a more recent thing, probably goes back a long way. I do think there's some work for you to do on being a little more secure in your values, in your decisions, so that you can become a little more immune to your sister's judgments. What you're describing is not unusual. It's really hard not to let our loved ones get under our skin. But I also think that this whole conflict with your sister is an opportunity for you to explore why she affects you so deeply. Yeah, and if it's actually true that her sister would hate her for this, I mean, she might be disappointed.

36:08She might be judgy. She might be a sanctimonious jerk about it, but would she really hate her or is that just what it feels like at the moment? I'm so curious to know what process goes on between the two of them when they talk and inside each of them to produce all of these difficult feelings, these fears that she's going to hate her. But look, let's imagine that your sister really would hate you for this. I don't think she really would deep down, but let's just imagine what then, because that doesn't have to be the end of the story. Can you allow her to have her opinions and her feelings about you and still live your life?

36:37Can you make as much room for your own right to go take a cool trip as you do for her right to hold you responsible for her child's future? I feel that your sister needs to be a little bit more understanding, a little less militant about her values for sure. But you would also benefit from being a little bit more secure in yours. Yeah, I agree, Gabe. And just to come back to her son's eco-anxiety, the reason that jumped out at me is being thoughtful about your carbon footprint, caring about the environment. That's one thing. It's important. Don't be littering and, you know, throwing light and styrofoam on fire like I did as a kid.

37:09All parents should teach their kids to take care of this world. Okay. But giving your child eco-anxiety, that's another thing entirely. This tells me that this sister isn't just bringing up her child to be a good steward of mother nature or whatever. She's probably downloading her fears and anxieties onto this kid. She's freaking him out. And that's also what makes me feel that sister needs to check herself here because her way of advocating for the environment is depriving her sister of living a full life and apparently giving her child some sort of weird complex about the future. So I say go take the trip, be safe, have fun, meet some good people, listen to some great music, reconnect with life, whatever, with yourself, make every moment count.

37:47That's one of the ways you can honor this opportunity and justify the impact, the again, very minimal impact to the environment. But also, you've built up some very real credits over the years. So I really do believe you can enjoy this trip guilt-free. Certainly as long as China continues to be the world's largest greenhouse gas emitter and Taylor Swift is flying private for her world tour. No shade to Tay-Tay, our pastry chef from last week's grand deity and apparently Gabe's daily exercise soundtrack. I know she's a boss and she needs to get around for her billion dollar tour, but the future of our species does not only fall on your shoulders here.

38:20Safe travels and have fun. I maintain that Shake It Off is a great workout song and I'm not going to apologize for it. You know what you need to shake off is that Tay-Tay and the Chainsmokers playlist that I know you have on Spotify. It's too good. I'm never going to do that, but okay. Noted. Now for something else your sister's definitely going to hate. Capitalism. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support the amazing sponsors who support this show.

38:46All the deals, discounts, and ways to support this podcast are at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. If you can't find a code or you're curious if we even have a code for a certain thing, email me, jordan at jordanharbinger.com. I will happily dig that up for you. Thank you for supporting those who support us. It really does keep us going and makes it possible to continue creating these episodes week after week. All right, now back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next? Hi, Jordan and Gabe. About a month ago, I was with my husband and 12-year-old daughter in a shoe store at the local mall. We were in line behind a man checking out with his four to five-year-old son.

39:22The little boy started whining about a pair of sneakers he wanted, and the dad grabbed the front of his shirt and got in his face and said something like, shut up or I'll f*** you up. Wow. And shoved the kid back. My husband and I immediately felt upset. We looked at each other, and I could tell my husband wanted to do something. With the two employees and those of us in line that witnessed this, there were a total of five adults who stood there and did nothing to intervene. I can't stop thinking about this little boy. I keep thinking that if this man felt comfortable putting his hands on his son and threatening him in his face with the F-word, what else is he capable of doing behind closed doors?

39:58My husband is a big, strong man and knows how to fight, but this could have been a whole big mess in front of his family. He didn't want to put us at risk. Also, gun violence in situations like this are a potential threat as well. My husband and I are both mandated reporters because we're both educators, and I've reported before. This situation was different because it was brief and outside of school. Also, was it actually abuse? What, if anything, should we have done differently in this situation? Signed a conflicted pedagogue replaying her inner monologue about whether to get involved to protect an underdog.

40:32Oh man, this is interesting, Jordan. I just remember this super weird thing that happened to me in New York. I want to say it was like 10 or 12 years ago or something. I was standing, I was actually trying to cross the West Side Highway and I was at the crosswalk and we were waiting for the light to change. And there were maybe 20 or 30 people at the corner waiting. And I heard a little commotion to my right, and I wasn't really paying attention. But then I hear like a little cry, and then I hear a bunch of people kind of gasp. And I look over, and I kind of catch the tail end of a guy shoving hard his girlfriend, and she fell to the ground.

41:07and it was so sad and it was so uncomfortable because everybody was like shocked by this and she just picked herself up and silently like stood up and moved near him again and then they continued to argue and you could just feel everybody trying to figure out like do we do something what do we do but the guy who shoved her was scary he was like visibly a scary person and nobody did anything and I felt kind of sick to my stomach and I was also like I'm so confused like am I really going to march up to this potential psychopath and give him a lecture about domestic violence in New York City? Like, no.

41:39But on the other hand, am I failing this woman who's, who knows what's going to happen later when she goes home? But then you also have the question, is it my job? And if she doesn't take care of herself, do I need to take it? It's very confusing, but I totally relate to this listener. Hard position to be in. Damn, yeah. I've had a couple moments like that myself and they are always kind of shocking and uncomfortable because it's like, yeah, do I step in? No, I don't want to get shot by somebody like this. You know, your husband might know how to fight, but like he's not bulletproof. Do I hang back?

42:08Do I fail to protect this poor person? What is my responsibility here? It's very confusing. And I gotta say, it's such a hard story for me to hear as a parent. My son is also four. Sure, he whines for stuff sometimes, rarely at stores, but I could never even imagine speaking to him that way. I've been super mad at this kid before. Like lunatic, can't control myself mad at him. And I think the worst thing I've ever said to him is like, enough, you shut your mouth, you're driving me crazy. And he's like, oh, he feels really bad. And immediately I feel like crap. And I apologize. I tell him it's not okay for me to talk to him like that.

42:44And like, I try and make him laugh so that we forget about it. And I ask him how he's feeling about it. But great. Cause I don't want him to like bottle it up or feel like he can't say anything, but grabbing your kid and telling them that you're going to them up is absolutely psycho. I cannot even imagine the wounds that that kid's going to have. Like you're whining for shoes. Cause you can't control yourself when you think they're cool and then suddenly the guy that you look up to the most tells you he's going to hurt you physically? That's so terrifying. So sad. We wanted to run all this by a real expert, so we reached out to Dr.

43:14Aaron Margolis, clinical psychologist and friend of the show. I'm also known to the people who know me the best as the doctor. And Dr. Margolis said the same thing. Witnessing stuff like this is deeply unsettling. You see something horrific that makes your stomach turn, you're disturbed because you're a decent person and you're still, I mean, you're still thinking about it. To answer your question, Dr. Margolis said, yes, what you saw was most certainly emotional abuse. And emotional abuse includes the threat of violence, even if the violence isn't ultimately carried out. And obviously that doesn't mean there aren't other types of abuse happening as well.

43:48So could you have stepped to the dad and been like, that's enough, bucko. You talk to your kid like that again, I'm calling the cops or giving him some sort of lecture. I mean, sure you could have. But as you pointed out, that could have and probably would have escalated the situation and created some danger for you and your family. And man, that's a real concern, especially these days. People have hair-triggered tempers. Guys who are violent often carry weapons because they beget violence. So who needs that? But also, who knows if that would have even helped. Maybe it would set the dad off even more, the family goes home, and then the father beats his son up even more because he's embarrassed and feeling ashamed about threatening his kid.

44:25Who knows? That happens sometimes. You just don't know. The other problem is emotional abuse is a lot harder to prove than like physical or sexual abuse where there's often more concrete evidence. Cuts, bruises, broken limbs, behavioral issues, stuff like that. So I'm not entirely sure if the police or CPS would even be able to do something if you did report. I'm also not entirely sure that you were obligated, legally speaking, to report this. This can differ state to state, but here in California, for example, teachers are only required to report abuse in their professional capacity or within the scope of their employment.

44:59And I'm sure that's true in other states as well. Maybe that's what you meant when you said that the situation was different because it was brief and outside of school. I don't know. So I don't think you need to feel some crushing guilt here. This situation is very, very different from, say, seeing one of your students show up to your class with bruises on his arm or his face. In that case, you have to report, and I know you would, but also even if you did report this, how do you report it without any information about this guy's family. Like, oh, I saw a guy threaten his kid at the mall. What are the police at CPS going to do with that?

45:30Nothing. It's too vague. So again, have some grace for yourself, not because you're a sociopath and nobody cares about this kid, but because there are a lot of variables and limitations at play here. Okay, all that said, what should you have done differently? Well, Dr. Margolis's take was, eh, it's complicated. There are a lot of what-ifs and unknowns here. You just don't know how this would have played out. She pointed out that it's really uncomfortable to sit with that ambiguity to confront the fact that in some situations you really are powerless. Her feeling was that the questions you are really wrestling with are, what do I do when I feel that sense of powerlessness?

46:05And how do I reassert a sense of control when witnessing something like this makes me feel out of control? Agonizing over whether you should have reported this, what you might do differently next time, that might be one way of reasserting that control in order to avoid the anxiety and uncertainty that come with witnessing something horrible and not having done anything. But as Dr. Margolis pointed out, it's kind of an illusion because we ultimately can't control anything. And embracing that means leaning into the reality that the world is often, it's chaotic, it's unpredictable, it's ambiguous, and that even if we do everything right, it still might not lead to the desired outcome or deliver that sense of control.

46:42Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I also do wonder if there's a part of her that feels guilty or ashamed for not intervening, and she might be looking for us to tell her that it's okay, that she didn't. And I get it. As you can see, we all feel that you did not bail on your responsibility here. But it might be good for you to notice that need to be reassured and maybe trace that back, see why you might be looking for some validation in this instance. Because as Dr. Margolis also pointed out, our reactions to moments like this, these are also informed by our own histories, our own experiences, right?

47:13So if you're an educator or you're a parent, you might respond to a child being hurt very differently. and if you were hurt yourself as a child for example witnessing something like this could be very triggering and all of these can provoke all sorts of trauma responses the whole you know fight flight freeze fawn thing so it's possible that in this moment in the shoe store your freeze response got activated because again it's scary and you don't know if intervening might make things even more dangerous by the way i think i would have the exact same reaction but somebody with a different past and different wiring, maybe they go flight, they run away, or they go fight, right?

47:48They tap the dad on the shoulder and they shove him and who knows what happens at that point. Full-on fisticuffs in the footlocker or whatever. So even if you wanted to do something, maybe you couldn't actually do anything in the moment. And if so, Dr. Margolis' feeling is that that doesn't mean that you need to find ways to override your nervous system in the future. In hindsight, it's so easy to beat yourself up and go, oh, I should have marched up to that guy. I should have put myself between him and his son. I should have yelled at him in front of all those people and protected that kid. But in moments like that, your brain is not functioning the way it does under more regulated circumstances.

48:21So you can't expect yourself to behave in ways that it literally couldn't, even if that's helpful. Yeah. And hey, we're all heroes in the car on the way home. It's very different when you're watching a lunatic with a concealed carry permit scream at his son, TJ Maxx. I'm a father and a dude who's done episodes about how to act in stressful situations, and I still would not have stepped in. I mean, it's just too dangerous. That said, might you do something different next time? Maybe. Maybe this experience makes you think about how and when to intervene in the future. I'm not saying you should absolutely stay out of something like this 100 % of the time and there's no point in trying.

48:54But again, you have to remember you can do all the right things and still fail to protect someone. You can create an even more dangerous situation for yourself. You can unintentionally make things harder for the victim. But here's what Dr. Margolis did want you to take away from this. Your response does not mean that you morally condone this behavior or that you didn't care enough to protect this child. You obviously have a big heart, a strong conscience, a real desire to protect people. You're probably a great teacher, and this doesn't mean you're a bad person or that you failed. That's important to hang on to and to not need to defend too much.

49:28Big thanks to Dr. Margolis for her wisdom and advice. Dr. Margolis is seeing patients in Los Angeles and virtually throughout California. You can learn more about her and her approach at DrAaronMargolis.com. All right, what's next? Hey, Jordan and Gabe. A few months back, I was given notice that I would be laid off from my employer of 18 years. I'm sorry to hear that. 18 years. That is a, yeah, that's tough. During that time, I was allowed to apply to any open positions at the company. I applied to two different roles. Let's call them job A and job B. I was far along in the process with job A earlier this year.

50:02In fact, I was informally told that I was going to get the job. Then I was called to interview for job B. My first thought was, I already have job A nailed down, so there's no need to interview for job B. But then I reconsidered. I interviewed for job B, and it went really well. I enjoyed the conversation with my interviewer. A few days later, I got the formal job offer for job A. All right, amazing. What a turn of events. Well done. You're clearly valuable to this place, and I would hope so after 18 years that they'd find a place for you. Before I accepted, I went back to the Job B interviewer to let her know.

50:36Turns out, I wasn't going to be considered for Job B because I lacked experience in a few areas. But instead of ending the call, we kept talking. She told me how much she enjoyed our conversation and thought I had really good insights about the company. She asked that we stay in touch. She even wants me to come speak to her team. I was excited that I was hired for Job A, but am equally excited that I made this new relationship. I just want to remind listeners that you should always go on job interviews if offered. You never know where they may lead. Signed, don't call me Robert Frost, because two roads diverged in a yellow wood, and I'm not sorry that I traveled both.

51:11That's some sort of literary callback that I will never understand. Okay, this is exactly right, and thank you for sharing this story with us. It is such a great reminder that you can never lose by planting more seeds. Actually, our job in life, professionally for sure, but actually in every area, I would argue, is just to keep planting those seeds. Because like you just found out, those seeds can sprout in all kinds of unexpected ways. And it is super fun to invest a little time and energy into people and then find out, I don't know, a month later, six months later, sometimes years later, that that creates these really cool dividends.

51:45Happens all the time. We hear these stories constantly. I love them. That's digging the well, folks. So yeah, well done. I love this story too. But what I love the most is that his first thought was, eh, I already got the job. I don't need to interview for this other job. But then he was like, let me just talk to this person. Why not? And before he knows it, he's building this great relationship and they're getting along and he's being invited to speak to her team where he's probably going to develop even more relationships. It's just funny how much of life is like that, right? You just don't know where stuff is going to lead or how a situation is going to play out or whether it's even worth your time.

52:19I mean, how many coffee dates have you been on where you're like, this could be not. And then two years later, something incredible happens or you help that person or whatever. But usually it does turn out to be valuable, depending on how much you put into it. Right. That limited mind, which I also have to fight against sometimes. It wants to go like, oh, whatever, not worth it. But a more playful mind, a more generous mind wants to go, hey, let's just play around and talk and see what's what just in case. Worst case, I got a new contact. And it often does work out. Such a great theme on Feedback Friday.

52:48I find it comes up a lot with the people who write in who are trying to figure out, you know, like, do I go with path A or do I go with path B? Do I invest in this opportunity or do I pursue that opportunity? And a lot of the time, I just want to say, I don't know. You don't know. So the answer you're looking for is not in gaming out this whole scenario. It's just investing in every direction generously and trusting that that is going to pan out well for you. And it's just amazing to see how life has a way of taking care of you when you do that. Exactly. Those dots always have a way of connecting up, but they can't connect up if you don't put them on the board in the first place.

53:20so much of this is just mindset and process over, you know, like goals and expectations. So well done, my friend. I'm super proud of you for landing this new role in your company. So awesome that you turned this loss into multiple wins. You should be really proud. And thank you for sharing this with us because it really brings to life what we try to share on this show as much as possible. So good luck and keep planting them seeds. Hope y 'all enjoyed that. I wanna thank everybody who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Go back and check out Charon Ranganath if you haven't done so yet.

53:50but I'm pretty proud that I got that name right on the first try. And our Out of the Loop on Haiti, if you haven't heard those yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust, just like we talked about in that last question there. And I'm teaching you how to do the same thing for yourself and build the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course. The course is free. I don't need your credit card number. You're not gonna get billed. It is not schmoozy. You can find it on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com.

54:17And these drills, they take a few minutes a day. hey, this is the stuff I wish I knew 20 years ago. Dig that well before you get thirsty, folks. Build those relationships before you need them, even if you think you'll never need them. Again, 6minutenetworking.com. Also, subreddit. Man, over 700 members have joined since we last mentioned this, which I think is really cool. So if you are on Reddit and you want to talk about episodes of the show, find us at the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. Gabe, you're in there. What is it? What's your flair in that one? It's like master of goat yoga. Goat yoga master, I think it was.

54:46I regret that mine's going to be like Cheeto feed or something, I bet. You deserve that, honestly. I know I do. So if you're on Reddit, check us out at the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. And our newsletter, Wee Bit Wiser, is kicking butt. A lot of great feedback. It's delivered once a week. It's a two-minute read. If you want to keep up with the wisdom from our 1 ,000-plus episode catalog and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out. You can sign up at jordanharbinger.com slash news. A lot of good feedback. You can hit reply and reach us. It's just a fun thing to have in the inbox every Wednesday.

55:16Show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers, discounts, and ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. Also, I'm on LinkedIn with all the sane people who have their names attached and don't just randomly cuss each other out. You can find Gabe on Instagram, Gabriel Mizrahi, or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I am a lawyer. I ain't your lawyer.

55:47Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Dr. Margolis' input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature. Doesn't represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those acquiring for guidance. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn.

56:13And we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show with Amanda Catarzi, who was raised in a cult and later sex and labor trafficked. The women were trained to be insanely submissive. Like you could never say no to any man. And then the men were trained in a very military way. These people are well-armed and well-trained. And it's a whole group that thinks that the world is evil and they need to repopulate the world with their people to bring the kingdom of God. When you turn 13 in that culture, you're an adult. So to be 13 years old, being courted by men twice my age, three times my age, to see if I would make a good wife, it was just kind of outrageous.

57:01So I moved to California to go to school and I start training MMA. And my trafficker was there. He was actually one of my boxing coaches. Then he's like, you know, I like you. And so now we're dating. So this is my first adult relationship. He's twice my age at this point. And then he would always take me up to his cabin on the mountain, which was really far away from everybody else. No phone service, isolation, and it was on a Native American reservation. So whatever they wanted to do to me, they could, oops, you accidentally got gang raped. That was very common of going to go train. And then all of a sudden, now that you've fought 12 rounds now you're gonna be right a girl ran a red light and t-boned my truck so i pull out my phone and i text my trafficker and i say hey i almost just died in a car accident he said is your face fucked up and i'm like no he said well you're still fuckable then something isn't right here this isn't who i want to be this isn't what i want and it was like i was coming out of water I had this moment of clarity and I knew something wasn't right and I knew this wasn't what I wanted and I knew I needed to act fast in order to get out of that situation because I knew I'd get sucked back in.

58:22To hear how she escaped her dire situation, check out episode 631 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

58:32Hey, it's Adam Carolla. Not sure if you heard, but I do a podcast Monday through Thursday, wherever you listen to podcasts. I team up with the very best comedians in the world, plus critical thinkers and all around nut jobs and offer my personal insight on current events, the state of the nation and the stories you may have missed. As the world gets crazier every day, you can stay fairly sane. I'll keep you there. I'll handle the crazy. Nuance is often lost on today's world, but you can find it right here. Available wherever you listen to finer podcasts. I'm Adam Carolla, and I approve of this message.

59:17This episode is sponsored in part by Conspirituality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy mad yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspirituality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

59:49An interesting episode to check out is called Speaking Truth to Goop, where Jen Gunter breaks down the pseudoscience behind the wellness industry in a way that is super entertaining and eye-opening. It's sharp, funny, and makes you a lot harder to fool, which if you listen to this show, you know I'm all about that. From exploring cults to analyzing our cultural and political landscape, the Conspirituality Podcast will help you stay informed against misinformation and resist fear tactics. Find Conspirituality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is sponsored in part by Everything Everywhere Daily.

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