1019: Grandfather to Blame in Niece's Pregnancy Shame | Feedback Friday

22:21I found him so easy to talk to, even when our opinions differed. We finished each other's sentences, and sandwiches, for that matter. Well, that sounds like love. The can-I-eat-the-rest-of-your-hoagie kind of love. This sounds like a Sex and the City voiceover, doesn't it? Oh, yeah. Charlotte met a guy at a gallery opening. Before they knew it, they were finishing each other's sentences and sandwiches. Yes, as it cuts to Charlotte and a guy wearing a bow tie at a bougie sandwich shop on the Upper East Side. Exactly. Such a good show, by the way. Huge part of my childhood. I don't know if I ever told you this, my mom, my sister, and I used to watch it together when it came out on Sunday nights, religiously.

22:54It was like a huge thing in our house. Mildly disturbing, kind of inappropriate, and somehow totally on brand. Yeah, I mean, I don't disagree, but also my mom listens to the show. So can we strike that from the record, Jordan, please? That is such a Miranda thing to say. I will take that compliment, actually. Miranda was the real hero of that series, something you only appreciate as you get older, I feel. So our friend here goes on, I fell head over heels in love. I loved him from the bottom of my heart, but like all relationships, we weren't perfect. We still had our issues. My parents especially had issues with him.

23:25For one thing, my parents told me that Mike was too old for me. He's 32, and I'm 22. I know that's a big gap, but I've never related to someone more. But then I also tried to confide in my mom and dad about some of the issues we were facing, namely that I wanted an open relationship and he did not. Oh, man. I can just imagine these fairly conservative upper middle class parents hearing their Gen Z child go, I use they them pronouns and I'm in love with a guy who's 10 years older than me, but I'm also on Tinder and in two different polycules. And I'm not saying they're necessarily right, but I can definitely understand why they're going, what is going on here?

24:00They advised me to break it off immediately. And I did. Then I didn't. Then I did. Then I didn't again. Altogether, four breakups in the span of two weeks. Wow. Such a carry. Am I right, Gabe? Yeah, this relationship is giving Mr. Big for sure. So they go on. Mike refused to let go. He was head over heels as well and was afraid of the influence my parents had on me. Fast forward to today, when I saw Mike at a convention that we both happened to be at. One thing led to another, and we slept together. Now I'm confused, and I'm desperate to get out of my parents' house. On one hand, Mike and I had such a special relationship that I want to rekindle it and see if we can make it work.

24:44But then my parents will be furious with me, doing the same thing they always do, where they push me to make the decision that benefits them and makes them feel safe. On the other hand, if I choose my parents, I'm afraid of losing Mike forever. What would you do in a situation like this? Should I choose the man who couldn't let me go or the parents who won't accept my decisions? Signed, I got 99 problems, but my pronouns ain't one or two, but still I'm blue about having to choose between a good dude and my parents' attitude. Wow, chef's kiss to that sign off. But my God, Gabe, that sign off was longer than our friend here's relationship.

25:21Well, TBD on that, I suppose. It depends if they get back together. But yeah, I don't know. They might be about to choose that long-lasting love, that Gabe going ham with the sign-off love. True. So, all right, let's jump right in. Let's get to the heart of the matter here. You're 22. You're a very young adult. You're individuating from your parents. I understand. This is an important stage of development, even if you get along perfectly with your parents. And part of that individuation process is developing your own values, your own needs, your own choices. And yes, oftentimes moving out of your parents' house and creating a life and identity that is your own.

25:51Now, your identity is more complex than many other people's. You're non-binary. It sounds like possibly trans. I don't really, you're dating an older man. You're in an open relationship or you want one anyway. And you're allowed to want and pursue all of those things. Obviously, I hope that those choices feel healthy and authentic to you, that they're contributing to your growth and your safety and your happiness. And I know you're not really writing in about all that, but that's an interesting layer to your story. You're an unconventional person, right? And I'm not using that as a euphemism. I'm literally, you're just not like everyone else.

26:23And that's kind of really cool in some ways, but maybe less unconventional in your generation. But still, you're building an identity that is unique. And it probably brings up some questions and conflicts that other more conventional people like my boring ass are just never going to have to wrestle with. So my answer to your conundrum is, actually, I'm going to quibble with the choice that you're laying out. Do I pick this guy I can't seem to quit? Or do I pick my parents? I'm going to quibble with that because I actually do not think that that's the choice you're facing, although I get why it feels that way.

26:51I think the better way to frame this is, do I continue carving out an identity of my own, or do I conform to the values and expectations of other people, whether those values and expectations belong to my parents or my partner or society in general? That's actually the better question, in my view, because first of all, your parents have their values, their beliefs, which you know I can appreciate why they have them, and I can't say for sure that they're 100 % wrong in every way, but there is this concerning thing where, according to you, they push you to make decisions that benefit them, that make them feel safe.

27:23And frankly, that's a challenge in any parental relationship. And your relationship with Mike, it sounds sweet. It sounds like there's a lot of love there. But as you know, that's not perfect either. You want one model for the relationship. He wants another. He's 10 years older, which I'm not one of those people who's like, age gaps are automatically bad. He's a predator. You're vulnerable. Run. But that's a pretty significant gap. 22 to 32 is much different from, say, 32 to 42. So it does make me wonder about what you each might be looking for in this relationship, how the power dynamics in your relationship work, whether dating an older man is fulfilling a certain need for you, like protection or guidance or for a certain kind of love.

28:06Again, not automatically bad. It's just important that you see that stuff if that is indeed what's going on. Also, one of the things that bonded you and Mike was that he was supportive of you being non-binary. He was super easy to talk to, which, look, that's very sweet. There's nothing wrong with that. But that's also exactly what you weren't getting from your parents, couldn't help but notice from the letter. And that alone does not mean that this guy is your person. He might have just been a very comforting and important person at a time when you really needed someone to accept you and listen to you and understand you.

28:37And even despite that, you've broken up and gotten back together several times. So good point. I know that your parents played a very big role in that, but you obviously have some conflicts yourself around this relationship. I don't know if that reflects how you really feel about Mike or if it speaks to just how influential your parents are in your life. But it does seem to me that you're confused about whether this is actually the relationship you want to be in. Right. And then there's this detail about you dropping out of college that you just slipped in there. We have to talk about that. Yeah.

29:04Look, we don't have enough information to know what to make of that. Was college just not for you? because that's fair, but did you drop out because you wanted to defy your parents? Was all the conflict with your parents doing a number on your mental health? I mean, Gabe, there's a reason that they put that in there. If it was totally irrelevant, it wouldn't even occur to them to write that in the letter, in my opinion. So there's some connection there, whether they're conscious of it or not is a different question. Or maybe you just find that it's hard to stick with your goals in general. And I'm curious about that, especially because going to college is kind of your first big experience as an adult.

29:36And it's a place where a lot of people go, they meet new folks, they encounter new ideas, they separate from their families a little. So I'm curious to know why you would give that up. It seems like a really healthy thing for you to do right now. So my simple answer to your question is, no, I would not capitulate to your parents, especially if they have a tendency of coercing you into doing what they want. And a lot of parents do that, I understand. That's a recipe for depression and rage and stunted growth, and you're already seeing that. But I'm also not sure I'd run back to Mike, because I'm not convinced that he's the answer to all of your problems or even that he's the right partner for you right now either.

30:11So what you need to do is understand yourself better and continue exploring different experiences and relationships. Going to college, making different kinds of friends, pursuing a career that you're excited about, dating different kinds of people, working on your relationship with your parents or maybe continuing to separate from them. Going to therapy, which would be enormously helpful to you right now. Speaking of which, have we mentioned that BetterHelp has gift cards? Basically, you need to continue exploring and growing up. So I get why it feels like it's your parents versus Mike. But that's not really what you're asking, right?

30:46What you're asking is, do I choose myself? Exactly right. And look, if you decide that Mike really is your person and your parents are standing in the way of that, then I think I would probably say, yeah, pick Mike. But I would also say, don't pick Mike just because you don't have your parents' support in life. Or let me put it another way. Don't cut off your parents entirely just because Mike is pushing you to commit to him. Exactly. The two are definitely related, but our friend here's job is to pick them apart a little bit more and just make sure they're showing up in these relationships in the best possible way, that her relationships are the right ones.

31:19If I were you at this very meaningful point in your development, my top priorities would be going to therapy, really getting to know myself, setting some meaningful goals, whether it's finding your own place or finishing college or landing a job you're pumped about and making choices and building relationships that honor your truest self. And that takes a lot of hard work and a lot of courage, but that's the journey you're on. So if you focus on that, it won't ultimately matter whether your parents totally approve of your choices or whether a certain partner provides you a certain experience, the support and safety you're looking for.

31:51You deserve those things, but I think you'll get a lot further trying to provide them for yourself. And by the way, I don't think it's the end of your relationship with your parents. I think you guys are probably navigating a very intense moment in your relationship. They're still wrapping their heads around your values and your choices. And I know it's very challenging for you, but I'd keep trying to meet them with love, curiosity, respect, and make it easy as possible for them to hopefully meet you in the same spirit so you guys can start to heal some of these rifts. Gabriel, you know, I know we're all our parents' kids here, but when your parents really dig their heels in, it's because they really care.

32:24You kind of only realize this once you start to have kids of your own. It's because they care so much that they can't necessarily handle it with like a totally clear eyed, calm. You're the most important thing that has ever happened to them, the most important thing in their world. So don't cut your parents off. The reason that they're being a huge pain in the ass is because they care so much about you and they don't have the answer for you right now. And that scares the shit out of them. That's the real reason. I also think that at 22 years old, you often don't have the capacity or the vocabulary to sit down with your parents and say something like, I can see that what I'm doing these days is really upsetting to you.

33:01It must be scary. It must be weird. It must bring up certain feelings for you. I'm willing to hear what those are. I want you to be okay with what I'm doing. Do you want to tell me what it's like? You know, to have that conversation as a 22 year old with your parents is difficult. It might take our friend here another 10 years before they can meet their parents with that kind of curiosity. But it's worth giving it a shot because I'm with Jordan. I don't think your relationship with them is necessarily over just because it's strained. Totally agree, Gabe. My friend, we wish you all the best. Good luck.

33:29Please keep in touch. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier. If your manipulative, mooching sister-in-law has taken over your home, your special needs sibling is secretly hurting people in your family, or you just discovered that your partner of 15 years is probably a sociopath. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. Oh, and by the way, if you haven't signed up yet, our newsletter, We Bit Wiser, is a bite-sized gem from a past episode from us to you delivered right to your inbox once a week.

34:02So if you want to keep up with the wisdom from our thousand plus episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out. And you can sign up at jordanharbinger.com slash news. Okay, what's next? Hey Jordan and Gabe. Back in the early 90s, my parents purchased a business that has been the primary source of income for my family for over 30 years now. My father ran the show while my mother did the bookkeeping and payroll. We were able to move out of our single-wide rundown trailer in Florida to a decent block home on a lake, and my childhood was pretty good because of their success.

34:33They also put a lot of money into real estate and found other ways to boost my and my brother's inheritance, but we both told our parents that we have no interest in the business, as we do not want to live in Florida and have other career goals. Then, around five years ago, my mother was diagnosed with a severe case of Wernick-Korsakoff syndrome, a serious neurological disorder, and my father was left to run the entire business himself. Oh man, I'm very sorry to hear that. That's got to be really difficult for all of you. That is a tough break, and that's an understatement, of course. That's when he found out that my mother did not pay into Social Security for her or him the entire time, which caused my mother to be denied her disability, which in turn caused my dad to sell all of their assets and my inheritance to cover her medical care.

35:22That is really unfortunate. My dad still runs the business alone, but recently told me that he had to put another name down for his business license. He put my name down to keep his incorporation status and said, congrats on owning a business. I don't like it. I told him I do not want my name tied to anything of theirs as I was not going to be liable for any tax issues and I'm not getting any money or benefits from his business. Yeah, good for you. No kidding. I do not blame you one bit, but this is called fraud, by the way. All was well until two weeks ago when I started getting calls from the Florida Department of Revenue.

36:01When I asked my dad about it, he told me it was because he was four months behind on paying sales tax due to banking issues. Oh, yeah. Banking issues. OK, so there's a real pattern here. Don't you hate when your bank makes it impossible for you to pay taxes? What are you saying? Their API was broken? I don't get it. The banking issue is that they didn't have enough money to pay the taxes because they did the accounting wrong or didn't do it at all or something. Come on, man. There's a real pattern here of not paying certain things like taxes, slapping band-aids on problems, finding workarounds that explode later in your face.

36:35Owning a business is hard, I get it, but it sounds to me like your parents are digging themselves into a hole here and what they're doing, unfortunately, is dragging you along for the ride. Very mixed metaphor, Jordan, but obviously I agree. If you expect me to learn at age 44 how to keep my metaphors straight, I am afraid that train has failed. You're such a dork. I told him I was not okay with the situation as I never agreed to be part of the business and I will not be caught up in his tax issues. and he just told me, welcome to being a business owner, and blew me off. Wow. Not cool at all. Not just not cool at all, not legal at all.

37:11I don't want to mess up my dad's only source of income, but I need to protect myself somehow. Am I at risk of getting in trouble with the law over this business I never agreed to when I never signed papers or anything agreeing to the liability? Do I need to get a lawyer in case this gets worse? Signed a coerced entrepreneur struggling to confer with my manipulative senor who's making me incur the risk of this nominal transfer. Oh man, your mom's diagnosis, the medical expenses, the hit to your family's hard-earned wealth, the latest drama with the business. I mean, this is all really frustrating and I'm very sorry that you're going through it.

37:46Gabe, this is reminding me of the letter we took a few months back from the guy whose wife didn't pay taxes for their business for years and then just didn't tell him. Oh yeah, and then she got an arrest warrant in the mail and he might be on the hook now? Brutal. Yeah, these stories about a partner or family member making poor decisions and not telling other people, man, they just grind my gears because no problem gets better when you hide it. It's just not right. And now they've exposed their child to some real risk. They've co-opted her into this hot mess and she didn't even do anything. It just sucks.

38:17We wanted to run all this by an expert. So we reached out to defense attorney and friend of the show, Corbin Payne. And Corbin's first thought was he doesn't know what your exposure on the tax problem is because you didn't handle any of the sales or the money. And he would think that proving you don't owe any taxes is going to be fairly straightforward. It would probably also be pretty straightforward to prove that you had nothing to do with getting put on the license and that you don't own any part of the business. So that's the good news. But unfortunately, Corbyn does feel that you're in a bit of a pickle here because if you report to the state that you truly aren't on the license or in the business, then your dad could get in trouble for several issues.

38:52The most obvious one is potentially losing his license, but the other one is getting investigated for falsifying business records, which Corbyn reminded us is what Hunter Biden was recently convicted of. Corbin's opinion is the longer this gets drawn out, the harder it's going to be to avoid getting stuck with the business issues. That could be tax liabilities, but it could also be business debt or business legal liabilities. Corbin didn't want to paint too dire a picture for you, but your dad, he really does seem to be running a catastrophically loose ship and he's shanghai-ing you into his problems.

39:22And I agree with that. And I'm also slightly relieved that I'm not the only person who's used the term shanghai-ing here on the show because I still can't tell if that's low-key offensive in this day and age, but man, it's a great word. It is a great word, isn't it? It just sounds like what it is. That's why I like it. You can hear that word and you just kind of guess what it means and it always involves trap doors and you're just, you're right. Whenever I hear it, I just picture a bunch of sailors in the 1850s getting drunk and being abducted and marched up the gangplank of some creepy ship and forced to work for another captain.

39:52I mean, that's effectively what seems to be happening to our friend, minus the human trafficking element. Right. Well, definitely. My point is, this is all very reckless, ridiculous. I get the sense that dad is very desperate. And when somebody is desperate, they will often make extremely bad calls to keep things afloat. For sure. That never works. Never. It's always one of those. The cover up is worse than the crime situations. Right. But here's the good news. Corbin said that right now you could quickly act. Let the state of Florida know that you have nothing to do with this. This would probably get you off the license and put anyone relevant on notice that you are not actually associated with the business.

40:27Okay, I just have to say, you sound like the Miranda now. I just need to point that out. She is a lawyer, right? Isn't that the case? Yep. But to quote Corbin here, the longer you're attached to this shipwreck, the greater the odds of something going terribly wrong and sticking to you in the process. So it's a numbers game eventually. If you're going to keep rolling the dice for, what, another decade, something's going to hit. Another thing Corbin said, if you knew about fraudulently getting put on the license and you let it go for a while, then a good lawyer, even a mediocre lawyer, they could argue that you effectively consented to being included on the license.

40:59And if a judge agrees with that argument, then you would be stuck. So Corbin really feels for you. He hates that this is happening. It's clear you don't want to betray. And I say betray in air quotes here, betray your dad by reporting this. But like I said, it sounds like your dad has serious problems beyond needing another name to put on the license. It's possible that he's slowly going out of business. To quote Corbin one more time, using you on the license is essentially using newspaper to patch a hole in a ship. It's barely slowing things down. It's putting you at extreme risk. Man, C-Pain, he loves his sailing metaphors, doesn't he?

41:32I think that's the last one for today, but I can't be sure. I'm a little worried for our friend here. And I got to say, I'm pretty angry with her dad. I know he's in an incredibly tough spot. My heart breaks for this guy. His wife has a serious disease. She severely compromised all of them by not paying into social security and then covering it up, hiding it. He's trying to keep their business afloat. I get it. So I can understand why dad is doing whatever he can to survive. But he is being truly reckless now. And more than that, he's being extremely callous to his daughter. She's saying, hey, thank you for everything you've done, but running this business is not my path.

42:07And now that there are all of these problems, I want nothing to do with it. And he's going, yeah, cool, cool, cool. But I had to put somebody's name down for the license. So congrats on owning a business. And when she pushes back, he's like, well, welcome to being a business owner and then shuts down and refuses to talk about it. That, putting aside the legal stuff, is not okay. Not okay at all. I think you need to have a really honest conversation with your dad about all of this. How he's recklessly mismanaging the business and his wealth. How he's essentially infected you with his financial problems against your will.

42:37How he's disregarding your very legitimate feelings. How he's not listening to you. He's not treating you with care, with respect. That is the real issue here. It might take some very direct and vulnerable language to get his attention. and to force him to acknowledge what he's done here. But I suspect that he already knows what he's done here. When he blows you off, that's probably him avoiding the stress and the shame of having to acknowledge all of the terrible decisions he's made and all of the ways that he's compromised you. That's my sense too. I'm sure that it hurts him to know that he's done this to his own child.

43:09But like, dude, if you know that, then don't freaking do it. Or if you realize later it was wrong, fix it. Come on, man. You know, Jordan, I find it so fascinating when a certain theme pops up in multiple areas of a listener's letter. So this father is obviously avoiding a lot here, both in terms of the business and in terms of what his child wants out of life. But mom was avoiding a lot too by not coming clean about the social security thing in the first place, which is really what kicked off this whole crisis. Which, by the way, that's a big part of this story. I know our friend here isn't writing in about this, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were all pretty angry at mom for what she did, but don't know how much they can really acknowledge that anger, let alone express it, given that she is fighting this really awful disease.

43:53Right. Because she's a victim, she's in pain, and it sucks, but the reality is she did a really bad thing. She really did. I mean, how do you express your justifiable anger at a parent who's suffering like this? It's a really difficult place to be, and that's another element that our friend here might be working out. But anyway, my point was actually, everyone in this story is avoiding some big stuff. And now our friend here might be avoiding something too, by hesitating to notify the state about the license and talk to her dad about how he's treating her. Which, I gotta say, I understand her avoidance the most here.

44:25This was not her fault, this is complicated, and I know it's scary to prioritize yourself and stand up to a father who's also struggling. But I feel like we've been seeing this a lot lately with our letters, especially with avoidance, how it can appear again and again in different areas and different relationships. But then it's often on our friends who write in to break that cycle and say, you know what? I'm not going to handle things like that anymore. I have to lean into this. I have to confront it. And I have to try to show everybody in my family or in my friend group what it looks like to stop tiptoeing around a very big problem.

44:55And in this case, our friend has several reasons to do that. But I'd tackle the legal stuff first. Talk to a tax and or corporate lawyer. Get a consult. This might be really easy to nip in the butt if you move fast. And Corbin said that if it happens to escalate in Florida, treats you like a bad guy, then you can get a white collar defense attorney. But I personally have a feeling it will not come to that. And I would give your dad a heads up that you're correcting the record so that he's not blindsided or compromised by this. And that's going to be kind of a rough conversation, I think. Once the legal stuff is squared away, then I would really sit down and have the real conversation with your dad about what he's done, how it's made you feel, how it's affecting your relationship, all that.

45:31And I really hope your dad can hear you and he starts making very different decisions and isn't just like, you're killing your mother or whatever. Poor guy, poor family. You guys are really going through it. I am so sorry for that. But there are ways of meeting problems that make them better. And there are ways of meeting problems that make them worse. And you might have to be the person who shows your dad how to make them better, even if you want nothing to do with the business, because this is your business. Good luck. You know, it's a great use of that rapidly dwindling inheritance, Gabriel.

46:02The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our sponsors. All the deals, discounts, and ways to support the show are at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Or go ahead and email me, jordan at jordanharbinger.com. I'm happy to surface codes for you if you can't find it, you're not sure it exists, etc. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Okay, what's next? Hi, Jordan and Gabe.

46:33I'm a 26-year-old husband and father, and I'm now working on becoming a police officer. I feel that there's a lack of good officers in this country, and I want to be a better protector for the kids. I'm also learning Spanish so I can communicate effectively with people I might encounter on the job. I'm getting in the best shape of my life, and I'm taking pre-law classes as well. Wow, amazing. You sound very driven, very thoughtful, solid reasons to become a cop. The problem is, years ago, in my late teens, I was addicted to porn. Back then, I was on a site, and one of the ads was very misleading and sent me to what I believe was a child pornography site.

47:11I did not watch any videos of children. I immediately turned it off. I was disgusted with myself for even clicking on the site in the first place, and also that this was happening all over the world. That experience changed me. At first it changed the porn that I like to watch, and ultimately it made me stop altogether. I now believe that porn is poison. It'll melt your mind. My wife knows my past, and we are transparent in our relationship. But now I'm scared that I'll be flagged during the polygraph test when I become a police officer, and blocked from what I know I'm being called to do. I'm also worried that I'm complicit and to blame for quote-unquote funding the site because I was addicted to porn.

47:52Would I get charged with a felony for being in possession of child porn? Would my dreams be crushed by being flagged in a system? And will I never be able to become a police officer? Am I going to ruin my life for trying to pursue my dreams? Signed, an unstoppable cop who did nothing wrong, full stop, but is afraid of being blocked from this precious op. Man, you're going ham on the sign-offs today. By the way, thank you for working in the term full stop there. I got you, dude. I've gotten an email a couple times from people who, like, hate that term. And I have no idea why. I know. Some people hate it.

48:24I don't know if they just don't like it or if they don't realize that full stop actually just means period. That's what you say in British English. It means period. It also means bam, no qualifications, end of story. It's not slang. No, yeah. It's like an actual term. Full stop is the pretentious way to say facts, basically. I think maybe that's what's bugging the guy. I don't know. It's like multiple emails. But maybe I should just start saying that. But I'm sure that I'd get angry emails about that, too. Can I do nothing right? Anyway, good question. I definitely understand why this is making you sweat.

48:52You have so much riding on being a cop. It sounds like you'd make an excellent one. It would be a big blow if this got in the way. And these interviews, they can be a little intense, so I get why this is keeping you up at night. First off, glad you kicked a habit that wasn't serving you. I'm not a prude about this stuff, as you know, but porn consumption can get really out of hand. Poor choice of words there. Sorry about that. It could affect you in some very profound ways. We did a whole Skeptical Sunday about that recently, So I'm glad you feel healthier and clearer now. That's great. But as it relates to your career, I really admire your discipline, your sense of justice.

49:27I'm sure they're part of the reason you wanna go into law enforcement. So look, I'm a lawyer, I'm not your lawyer, but we did some homework on this. We also talked to a police officer friend of ours and he shared some interesting stuff. So here's the deal. The laws around child pornography, and by the way, I think we're all supposed to call it child sexual abuse material now. I prefer that term because it is child sexual abuse material. and that's all it is. These laws differ from state to state. They're probably all pretty similar. Here in California, Penal Code 311 makes it a crime to send, transport, produce, or possess child pornography, develop, print, duplicate, or exchange it, to hire, use, persuade, or coerce minors to participate in making this stuff, to knowingly advertise obscene content like this for sale or distribution, or to knowingly possess or control any child pornography.

50:12Now, questions that often come up around these statutes are the meaning of the terms child pornography, obscene, and may be relevant to your situation, the term knowingly. And lawyers, they dine out on the term knowingly, okay? So I doubt you'd get charged with a felony for being in possession of child sexual abuse material because first of all, this incident already happened years ago. Nobody showed up at your door with a warrant. I don't think you were ever on anyone's radar. Second, I'm not entirely sure that you broke the law. If what you're saying is true, you didn't watch any videos. You immediately turned it off.

50:39I'm not sure that you actually violated the letter of the law. You didn't send, transport, produce, create, possess, or control any of that stuff. and you definitely didn't do any of that knowingly, which is a key term that is very important. Our cop friend had the same take. He said that generally you have to possess, transmit, or furnish this material to be guilty of a crime. If you haven't done any of those things, you're probably not guilty of a crime. His advice? Check your state's laws governing child sexual abuse material. And if you feel comfortable Googling this, you know, use an incognito window or, you know, maybe someone else's computer, search for firms that have websites that walk you through how to know if you've committed a crime.

51:14So that's the good news, but it doesn't mean this won't come up in your polygraph. We did a little digging into this, and some of the things interviewers commonly ask are your personal and professional history, of course, any criminal behavior on your part, shoplifting, theft, stuff like that, certain financial information, if you've ever used illegal drugs, including steroids, if you drink alcohol, and most relevant to you right now, they apparently often ask about any illegal or deviant sexual behavior, so put those ball gags away. The reason they ask these questions, you can send them straight to me.

51:43Yeah, Jordan wants to wear one of those in aisle 12 of Target by his house. Yes, exactly. Exactly. So the reason they ask these questions is they want to know if you've done a ton of cocaine, if you owe a huge amount of money to somebody that could compromise you. They could make you amenable to manipulation or poor decision making. But the other reason they ask is they want to squeeze you. They want to see how you react. So they might ask you some uncomfortable stuff and it might not be very polite or delicate. Apparently, police interviewers, They have asked candidates stuff like, have you ever had sexual thoughts involving a family member?

52:14And I'm sure they're deadpan staring at you when they ask you this question too, straight in the face. Have you ever had sexual relations with an animal? So I could see a world where they go, you ever look at child porn? And if you lie, there's a good chance the polygraph is going to register that stress. Unless you take a ton of beta blockers or you're like a Dexter level sociopath, which you're clearly not. Or you're really good at those weird exercises that can apparently help you pass a polygraph, like rehearsing the answer perfectly or squeezing your sphincter muscle or whatever. I'm not even sure that still works anymore, but some people say it does.

52:45Either way, that stuff is really hard and a lot of it's detectable. You know, I have a friend who for many years worked pretty high up in the government. And he told me that in his interview for his security clearance, the interviewer asked him, okay, so, you know, where'd you work during college? Oh, Foot Locker. Okay, got it. And where do your parents live? Fort Worth. Uh-huh. Tell me something. You ever did little boys. They've really asked him that and they just zero transition, right? Just boom. No, not at all. That's what he said, because the whole goal is to catch people off guard and provoke an honest response.

53:16And in his case, he was just like, uh, absolutely not. And then they just moved on and it was fine. Right. Like, Ooh, thank God they didn't ask me about doodling little girls anyway. Truly. Yeah. So they might ask our friend here about this porn thing. I'm not a hundred percent sure. I think he needs to be prepared for anything and hopefully he'll be pleasantly surprised. By the way, my friend was working on biological and chemical weapons programs. So maybe that had something to do with it. You know, they just need to make sure that the people working on that are really solid. Or maybe he just happened to get a super aggro interviewer who enjoyed messing with people.

53:48I have a feeling police interviews are more chill, but I just wanted to share that. So our friend here has all of the information. So look, we can't tell you what to do for sure, but if I were in your shoes and they asked me this, I think I would tell the truth, but I would keep it brief. I might say something like, No, I've never watched child porn. Once when I was 17, I was on a website. An ad popped up. It was very misleading. I clicked it. It took me to a site that I quickly realized might have been dodgy, although I'm not 100 % sure it actually was. I did not watch any videos. I immediately turned it off.

54:20It disturbed me. It broke my heart. It ultimately led me to stop watching pornography altogether, and I still don't, and I never intend to again. I mean, Jordan, please tell me. Am I being naive? I feel like that's a noble answer. The polygraph might still register some stress, but I assume it won't register the kind of stress that screams you're lying. And you're being transparent about the fact that this was an accident and you did not break the law. And also, it might not have even been illegal. I have a hard time imagining that a PD would use that against you. Although, honestly, I have no idea what specific departments standards are or, you know, what they think is excusable these days.

54:55And by the way, he can't be the first cop to fess up to watching porn. No. If they even get asked about it. Also, I read that law enforcement agencies are really struggling to recruit officers right now, these days in general. So I'm not sure that they can afford to be too picky, especially if you're perfect in every other way. Actually, that just reminds me of another story. Years ago, I was doing a ride along with a cop. He was about the same age as our friend here, very young. I was sitting in the passenger seat next to him on patrol and, you know, we get to talking and he tells me, well, actually, I did a bunch of MDMA when I was younger.

55:29And I was like, wow, really? And like your department didn't mind when you because I assume you had to tell them that. And he said, no, I'm I was totally honest about it in my interviews. And some departments turned him down. He doesn't know for sure if that was why, but he didn't get jobs at some places. But the department he ended up working for hired him. Wow, that's interesting and good to know. So these answers are not necessarily deal breakers. Again, I think it depends on the department, but I think the real deal breaker is if they believe that you're lying. Right. So no, I don't think your dreams are 100 % going to be crushed here.

56:00I also don't think that you're going to be flagged in a system and never be able to become a police officer just because of this. The worst thing that could happen based on what we have read is you fail a polygraph, which again, should only happen if you lie. And then you'll have to be honest about that in future polygraphs. As for feeling like you're complicit in funding that website somehow, I really would not stay up at night worrying about that because you didn't consume any of this content. You didn't even know you were looking at it. And if that site made any money off you whatsoever, which I doubt it was probably like a 15 cent ad impression, you're not personally funding some international human trafficking ring or whatever.

56:37But again, the fact that you're so concerned about that, I think that speaks to your empathy, your character, and it's a sign that you're going to make a great cop. By the way, we're going to link to an interesting document we found, the Law Enforcement Pre-Employment Test by the National Center for Credibility Assessment. It covers the principles of the pre-employment test, the psychology of the test, the types of questions they ask, how to prepare. Definitely give that a read. We'll link to that in the show notes for you. I would also reach out to other cops, you know, and ask them what the interviews were like.

57:03I wouldn't say, yo, are they going to ask me if I watch any kiddie porn, bro? I would, especially in that like strip club voice that I just did. Don't do that. Just ask them what questions they got asked and take some notes. You might also want to reach out to a lawyer who's represented police officers before, maybe an employment attorney. A quick consult might be free. Even if they charge you a couple hundred bucks, it would be worth it to sleep at night and just go into these interviews feeling good. One last thing. Our cop friend pointed out that a career in law enforcement is highly rewarding and also highly stressful.

57:33And he said that you're going to have to see and deal with a lot of traumatic events in the course of your career. And the less emotional trauma you carry into the job, the better. So if you're carrying extreme guilt over this possible non-event when you were 17 years old, if you tend to hang on to things like this in general, he strongly recommends talking to a professional, having that space to work through these feelings. And obviously we second that, and that might be the most important takeaway from this anxiety of yours, how it might show up in this intense career and how you need to take care of yourself.

58:06Yeah, such a good point. So definitely keep chasing this dream, bud. Sounds like you have a true calling to this work. This country needs more police officers like you, and I hope your interviews go well. I have a feeling they will. Good luck. All right, what's next? Hey guys, I'm the rapid response slash ICU nurse who decided to go into informatics who wrote you a while back, which Gabe decided to pronounce as informatics. It should be informatics phonetically. Okay. Freaking Gabe, what a Steve mistake to make. I feel like more of an Aiden thing to do, but okay. Weirdly, I just looked it up and the dictionary says informatics.

58:41So I'm confused. Yeah, now you're back to being a Miranda. It's no winning with you. I'm not going to quibble with you, friend, whose field this actually is. Informatics it is. So she goes on. I was very worried that the immediate gratification of saving a life on the daily would prevent me from being fulfilled in the IT and educational realm. I just couldn't imagine my life without five hours of sleep, a monster energy drink at 6am and a day filled with trauma, physical and mental, both on mine and my patient's part. Ugh, brutal. What a career that is. These people are freaking heroes, dude. It's insane.

59:15So she goes on, As I transitioned into this 9-to-5 role, I kept the bedside job as an occasional option. I worked a couple of clinical bedside shifts and was taken aback by how much I just did not want to be there. I spent well over a decade sacrificing my family's and my own mental health. I've come to realize that you can be an amazing bedside nurse, but when you've had enough, you've had enough. Some people are built to handle the trauma of bedside nursing, and some are not. It takes a big person to realize that maybe you're not the person for that. I was great at my job, but it was not great for me.

59:49I wish that more people could use that as a guide for their career choices in nursing. There are hundreds of other jobs you can do with your nursing degree. Now that I have an actual schedule, I've joined sports leagues and networking events, my life is better than I ever thought it would be after giving up what I was proficient at for years. I even met someone that I think is my person after being single for over a decade. At first I was afraid, you could say I was petrified, but I couldn't be happier with my career choice. I cannot stress enough that just because you're scared doesn't mean you shouldn't take the leap.

1:00:22If anyone needs advice or a listening ear or anything at all, please connect them with me. It takes a village is not just a phrase for child rearing. Signed, The Data Nerd Who Went With The Flow and Is Absolutely Aglow After Saying Goodbye to The Highs and Lows. Well, this is quite a turn of events. We wanted to share this with you guys because we know you guys like to hear how people's stories turn out. We love that too. But Gabe and I were especially moved by this one because this isn't just, you know, like, oh, I gave up my job and I'm happy now. This is really a story about identity and about the courage to change that identity.

1:00:54What this listener did in giving up her ICU nursing career, it took guts, real guts, Even though she had gotten to a place of such extreme burnout and disillusionment, it's really scary to go, I'm gonna say goodbye to this role, to this lifestyle, to this whole thing. I'm gonna explore a different one. I think we have a lot of ego and self-concepts wrapped up in what we do. I know I do. Even when something is making us miserable, we're often clinging to it, right? We resist opportunities to play and explore. We shut down the parts of ourselves that might be craving something different. Because leaving a field, even when you kind of hate, sometimes especially when you hate, If being able to survive makes you feel strong and capable and you're effectively trauma bonded with it, that can feel like failing.

1:01:34And that feeling of failure, that can really keep us stuck. It certainly kept me stuck at a few points in my life. Like, oh, I can't leave this toxic company because then they win and I'll be giving in or I'll look weak or I'll have to finally confront how truly untenable this whole thing was for so long. Or I can't leave this country that's making me miserable. It took me five months to learn how to ask the frickin' grocery store clerk where the bread is. I want to be the kind of person who can survive in a tough place. I'm just going to grit my teeth and wear it like a badge of honor, even if there's a better home for me out there or whatever.

1:02:03Whatever the situation is, and this is true of jobs, it's true of lifestyles, it's true of relationships, it's true of goals, it's even true of hobbies. Quitting is complicated, man. It puts us in touch with a lot. Our fears, our limitations, our shame, our anxiety, our grief. So I totally get why we tend to stick with situations that just don't serve us very well. But when we do that, we also miss out on so much of life and so much of ourselves. Like our friend here who's not only enjoying this super exciting new career, she's also getting to live a real life, she's making new friends, she's dating someone great, which is even more inspiring later in life.

1:02:37So I guess what I wanted to leave you guys with, and our friend here has really brought this to life, sometimes quitting is the most courageous thing you can do. And sometimes what you find is that it actually takes less strength than sticking with some crappy situation. And quitting doesn't just automatically equal failure. Sometimes it just means change. In fact, the word quitting might not even be the right word a lot of the time. Saying goodbye might be better, or putting something down, or just playing. We have a lot of associations with the word quitting. If you quit, you're a quitter. What does that say about you?

1:03:10And over the years, I've really come to appreciate that deciding not to keep doing certain things is very powerful and essential. Our friend here put it best. Just because you're scared doesn't mean you shouldn't take the leap. But if you do take the leap, then you also have to be willing to tolerate uncertainty, adversity, and you have to be willing to work hard. I mean, our friend here just went back to school to make this transition into nursing. Let me see if I get this right. Informatics. I still think it's informatics, but I'm not going to again, I can't quibble with the maestro here. We'll take her word for it.

1:03:40However you say. Yeah, however you say. She worked her butt off. She did. There's no substitute for that. It takes a lot of hustle and diligence to chart a better path, but sometimes the hardest part is just being willing to entertain the idea that there might be a better path, and to have the courage and conviction to listen to that voice and follow it into something better, and to be willing to mourn the old you in order to make room for a new one, which in my experience, rarely as bad as it seems before you do it. Usually pretty damn exciting, especially when you can already see a new chapter starting to take shape.

1:04:09So kudos to you, my friend. Thank you for sharing this gem with us. We're super proud of you. We're excited for you. I am so happy you're in a great relationship and feeling alive. Most importantly, I'm thrilled that you're not chugging neon green hyper caffeinated sludge at six o 'clock in the morning. I think that's a huge win. Your internal organs are probably thanking you right now. Keep up the great work and please keep us informed or informed or infirmed. Just tell us how it goes. Do it live. I'll write it and we'll do it live. Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week and everybody who listened to us do it live.

1:04:46Thank you for that. Go back and check out Phil Elwood and our Skeptical Sunday on the end of the world if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust. I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course. It is free. It's not gross. It's not schmoozy. A lot of you have written in and told me how this has helped you get better jobs, heal relationships, just keep in touch with your friend circle. You can find it on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com.

1:05:13Dig that well before you get thirsty, folks. Build relationships before you need them and maintain them in a way that isn't a huge pain in the butt. Show notes and transcripts at jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's over on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi.

1:05:43Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer, so do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Corbin Payne. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love, and if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. if you're looking for another episode of the jordan harbinger show to sink your teeth into here's a trailer for another episode that i think you might enjoy i think i did it in a way that most people don't i just wanted to work on my own i wanted the chance to build something from scratch quote unquote my way i didn't know it was going to be a startup it was just me i was futzing around with ideas i just need space a table and my old laptop and a few ideas.

1:06:33It took more than a few to get to Instagram, but that was the way I did it back then. We think there's a reason why startups started by like 20 year olds. You can go hard to 4am every single day, or maybe even longer. You don't get sick. Like you don't really have kids. And that's part of the beautiful thing about entrepreneurship is that you can make a lot happen with a few people, highly leveraged. And if you stay healthy, everything goes well. We talked a lot about having like one tap magic. All Instagram was was like that hour and a half in Photoshop in 0.5 seconds at the beginning, going down to what, five milliseconds towards the end.

1:07:11Rarely does your plan A work out. So you have to be able to be quick to move to where the fire starts. You can't will lightning is what I'm saying. YouTube was a dating site. It's crazy. That's wild to think about. But you can go back and you can actually see in the Wayback Machine, like, what it looked like way back in the day. And it's striking, actually. I hope in startups that someday there will be this moment where retro is cool again. Where people are like, we don't have an app. We're just on the web. For more from Kevin Systrom, including how to get honest feedback from others and when you should and should not listen to it, check out episode 335 right here on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

1:07:55This episode is sponsored in part by the Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a great new podcast can feel like searching for a needle in a haystack. Let me save you some hassle. Check out Something You Should Know with my friend Mike Carruthers. Every episode is packed with fascinating insights that you can actually use. Mike interviews top experts on topics that shape your life, like how to optimize your brain chemistry, the best and worst ways to apologize, probably could have used that recently, why couples hate to talk about money. No matter the topic, Mike asks the questions you'd want to ask, getting straight to the good stuff, And the conversations are always engaging, always insightful, guaranteed to leave you a little smarter than before.

1:08:26They've got thousands of five-star reviews. But do you even need that? I'm recommending it. You don't need other people's opinion, right, at this point, I would hope. Anyway, give it a listen. Just search for Something You Should Know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening to Something You Should Know.