1031: Sarah Hill | How Birth Control Rewires Women's Brains Part One

24:18We do have foreign listeners, though, who are going to be like neurosteroid, and they can Google it. It's 2024. 24. You mentioned in the book that parental investment is higher for women than men. And that kind of goes without saying, but tell us, of course, why this is just for people who are, you know, jogging and not necessarily critically thinking about everything we're saying. And also tell us why it's important for what we're discussing with respect to birth control. Yeah. So a parental investment, I mean, when we're talking about the minimum, bare minimum levels of investment that a male versus a female have to make in an offspring, females are actually defined as females in part because they make a larger investment and that that investment difference begins even before a man and a woman meet a female has already invested more in reproduction than the man has because eggs are so much more metabolically expensive than sperm and so females are born with you know a finite number of eggs each one is I forget what it is something like a thousand or a million times larger than a sperm cell.

25:23So it's like metabolically a lot more expensive. And so females before they've already their initial investment, which is just their gamete or their sex cell is larger and more costly than what gets invested by a male. And so you get that initial difference in investment. But then for a human, you know, we're mammals and females internally gestate. And so a woman, you know, if there's going to be a pregnancy, the minimum amount of investment that a woman has to make in order to reproduce is nine months. And the minimum investment that a man has to make to reproduce is like what, like the time, you know, we all know it's about 35 seconds, right?

26:01Yeah. Say, right. If you do it twice, right. Yeah. And so there's just a really big difference. There's a big asymmetry in the minimum amounts that have to be invested. And this is important for the current conversation, because one of the things that makes biological males and biological females different from one another is these differences in investment. And historically, throughout our long history as a species, females have been the ones who have to invest more in reproduction. And so for women, sex historically has been something that's very costly for us, because anytime that we have sex, it could potentially lead to having to invest in, you know, not only a nine month pregnancy, but then subsequent time spent lactating.

26:46And there's a possibility that this guy that just knocked you up isn't going to stick around and care for this child. And so women have had to, over the course of history, be a lot more choosy and discriminating and also, you know, sort of delay sex and be a little bit more sexually coy just to try to figure out whether or not this person that they're with is somebody who's going to be able to help them care for an offspring. because human offspring are notoriously like a black hole of need. Right. Yes. I'm going through that right now. Yeah. No kidding. I mean, yeah, no. And trust me, with teenagers, it gets even worse in some ways.

27:21I was like, I can't wait till they're older and then they don't need me to, yeah, no, maybe not. Yeah, no, it's a little bit of, it's a different set of problems, but it's so hard to rate, especially young children, like as you noted, I mean, they require so much investment. And so sex for women historically has been something that is very costly and is going to necessitate a lot of investment. And the same has not been true for men. That's true. Yeah. I mean, guys are giving this stuff away, right? Like anywhere that they'll take it, we're giving it away. It's like you take it off the lot right now.

27:52And yeah, women, not so much. That's why, yeah, I'll leave that there. Right. I mean, because it sets up all of these asymmetries between the sexes because it's like, you know, all of a sudden the cost of sex, you have this big asymmetry between the cost of sex, right? For women, because pregnancy is a possibility, sex is very costly. For men, it's not. It's just not costly. There's also differences in the like sort of reproductive opportunities that you're going to be passing up if you would agree to sex with this person compared to that person. And if you're a woman, if you have sex with this person and that ends up not to be your person, you're stuck with nine months with this, you know, in this other person, you know, if you're a man, you can have sex with 10 different women and have 10 different children, you know, in the course of an afternoon.

28:35You need 10 minutes in a washcloth and the washcloth is optional. Yeah, I know. It's like, it's like the course of an afternoon. So you get all of these big differences between men and women that ultimately stem from the fact that we have these differences in the minimum level of investment. And why this is interesting in the context of the current conversation is that the birth control pill creates a context where the costs of sex all of a sudden are much lower because we can feel very certain that we're not going to end up getting pregnant, right? And all of a sudden that big cost that women have had to shoulder over history as a consequence of their sexual behavior that has made their sexual behavior and the way that they behave so different than that of men all of a sudden is removed.

29:17It's like taken off the table. And so that's like a really interesting question. And it's something that we've been looking at my research lab recently, is really trying to understand how does taking the pill, which is something that makes the cost of sex so much lower for women than what it was historically, how does that change their mating related behavior? So how does that change women's sexual psychology? And how does that change their sexual behavior? Does it make them behave just like men, because all of a sudden, you know, sex is something that's not as consequential as it used to be? Or did they still because they're operating with that sort of stone age brain that we've inherited from our ancestors who didn't have birth control?

29:59Like do women still prioritize things like investment? And are they still sort of really cautious about having casual sex to a greater extent than men, just simply because we're operating with this really old brain that we've inherited from ancestors who didn't have access to birth control. I don't know much about hormones, but I do know about dopamine and I get a rush of it whenever you support the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you're wondering how I managed to book all these amazing people, these authors, thinkers, creators every single week, it is because of my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust.

30:33And I'm teaching you how to build your network for free over at sixminutenetworking.com. I know you're not booking for a podcast. I know you might be retired, you might work in an industry. I think you need this anyway. This course is all about improving your relationship building skills. If you're already great at that, it's got systems to put things in place. Most people don't have this. In fact, people who think they're great at networking often don't have a system in place, which means that they're not really that great at it, but whatever. The course teaches all of this in a super easy, not cringy, down-to-earth way.

31:00No awkward strategies or cheesy tactics, just practical exercises that are going to make you a better connector, a better colleague, a better friend, and a better peer in a few minutes a day. And many of the guests on the show subscribe and contribute to the course. Come join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find the course at sixminutenetworking.com. Now, back to Dr. Sarah Hill. I got a feedback Friday letter. This is our advice segment that we do every Friday. This woman had been like cheating with a bunch of people and she used this excuse that she had hormones implanted in her hip.

31:31Somehow they put this little grain of rice, a hormone releasing thing and she was just like sex craze and other people wrote in and they were like I've had that yes to the sex craze thing no to the cheating with like anybody who looks at you twice thing but all these other women wrote in and they were like oh yeah you get that thing in there in your hip and I don't know what this is this is apparently some hormone therapy for women who might be a little bit older I'm not totally sure and it just turns you into a demon if they get the dosage wrong, I think. Or maybe that's the point. I don't know.

32:04Right. Yeah. No, I think that it's got to be the testosterone implant. That's my guess. Because they do these. Welcome to my world, lady. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was going to say, so this essentially turns them into men. And so men are like, yeah, no, like, girl, like, we don't get to do that. You don't get to do that either. I'm pretty sure it's because there's this pellet, the testosterone pellet. Yeah. Yeah. That's what it's got to be. That's really funny. So it's essentially like turning women into men and they're having to realize how hard it is. Yeah. Yeah. Women were writing in and they're like, I've never been unfaithful to my husband, but I will tell you, my personal trainer was stretching me out and, you know, yeah.

32:39And I'm like, okay, let's leave it there, lady. Right. Yeah. But it's quite funny because any guy who you're friends with, you'd have that exact same type of conversation. Like, oh man, my trainer was stretching me out, you know, and she pushed on my back and I gotta go. I was like, what? But it's so interesting what hormones do. Your book mentioned something also I found really interesting. Children, because when I first talked to you, I didn't have kids, right? So there's a line in the book that I noticed this time, which was children that look more like their fathers tend to get more investment from dad, which makes total sense, right?

33:13Paternity tests are new, but you didn't need one if your son, my son looks just like me. And so my buddy even said something like, wow, it's a little you. And my producer was like, guess you don't need a paternity test, you know, like elbowing me. Just people are saying, wow, it's like looking at you from 1984. And he's just like my little clone. And it totally makes sense, right? Because if it's a thousand years ago, you might not have been totally, totally sure. Or if it's a hundred, I don't know, 10 ,000 years ago, you might not have been totally sure. But if you are in your little tribe and there's a little you running around, you're like, I'm pretty sure that one's mine.

33:49It looks exactly like me. Yeah, no, for sure. It's really interesting because what the research finds is that for women, there's absolutely no relationship with physical resemblance or personality resemblance or any type of resemblance and degree of like closeness. I mean, just, you know, sort of like psychological closeness, like how close you feel, but then also even caregiving and like preferential treatment. Like there's none of it because women's psychology does not need to be sensitive to that because we've always known that any child that we have is ours. And so women can have children that look or act nothing like them, and they still invest in them all kind of more or less the same and probably based on other things, other qualities.

34:26But for men, what you tend to see is that there's this like a little bit of favoritism. It's all unconscious, for sure. I mean, and maybe there's some conscious level stuff that goes on, too, where you're like, I like you. You look like me. You know, we're cool. You're so handsome. But yeah, you're so handsome. Look at you. And showing that men are really sensitive to those cues and that the more phenotypic similarity you get. So the more similarity you get in appearance and even personality traits, they tend to get greater psychological closeness and sometimes even greater investment. It seems like men's testosterone is all over, almost like a dice roll.

35:01Well, maybe not quite that, but it seems fickle, right? You see some women, I think you wrote something in the book about you see women, your team wins in sports or you win an election. And I mean, you like the person you voted for wins an election or which I thought was funny. You're around weapons, which is actually explains a lot, I think. And if you're a guy, if you want to elevate your hormone levels, you go watch hockey, vote, and then go to a strip club and then polish your rifle or whatever. And, uh, and you're good, right? You just watch that spike. Yeah, no testosterone is definitely, it's a reactive hormone.

35:36And so what we tend to see is that men's testosterone levels will decrease if they like lose, if their team loses, if they're just feeling submissive, like in a situation where they have to submit, it makes their testosterone lower, testosterone increases if their team wins, if their favorite political candidate wins. Yes, if they're around weapons. Yeah, it's so weird. I know, it's so funny, a beautiful woman or anything sort of even with the slightest hinting of sex, men's testosterone will increase. And all this is for good reason, having children. So like you get to be in the position right now where your testosterone is probably lower than it would be.

36:15So there's like parallel universe, Jordan, who's got higher testosterone than you, because he has no children. When we have children as men's testosterone level decreases, and it does this for a good reason. It's like when you have kids, and or if you've got a long term partner that you're investing in, And it's not always a good thing to have your foot on the gas pedal of testosterone for the reasons that we talked about with the women with the implant. I mean, it can be a kind of counterproductive hormone sometimes. And it doesn't lower your testosterone to the degree that you're going to get pushed around and, you know, just all of a sudden become a meek underling.

36:49But rather, it just like sort of prevents maximization of testosterone because it's really adaptive to channel your energy towards your children and towards your partner and not toward looking at the next door neighbor and thinking about, you know, vivid sexual fantasies with strangers. That's what parallel universe Jordan is doing is going to the gun range after looking at some pornography or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And so women, you know, we get a hard time about our hormones because they cycle and they fluctuate. But men, you know, their primary sex hormone testosterone is something that also changes and fluctuates and it's got a circadian rhythm and it's highest in the morning and then decreases during the day and responds to all of those things that we talked about.

37:29And so our sex hormones are part of what creates the experience of being who we are. And all of it is helping to guide our behavior in ways that are actually really adaptive and functional. And so when we mess with that, like we do with the pill or with that implant that we were just talking about. I mean, it can really change behavior in ways that can not always be necessarily what we want. Yeah. Some people have reported like manic. You're really turning something up to 11 when it was supposed to be turned up to like five or six. And it's hard to control. It's really uncomfortable. Some of that, though, I have to guess is just women being like, oh, I've never experienced this.

38:06I think other stuff is clinical where it's like they just can't control themselves. That's like maybe a combination of things. But it's very, it was really interesting reading the email after this particular letter. There's a lot of trade-offs when choosing long-term versus short-term partners for women, especially, of course. Can you speak to that a little bit? Because of course, for men, you know, choosing a lot of partners is not good for your marriage, but it's good for spreading your genes. And we're kind of evolved to probably spread genes, I mean, to some degree. But it seems like you don't want to mess with that.

38:38If you're a woman, especially, right? You don't want to have your short-term switch flipped if you're trying to do the long-term thing, which I think a lot of women are, right? Husband and kids. Right. Yeah. I mean, I think that when we're talking about mating, you know, we can think about the types of benefits that we get from our different types of partners as kind of falling in the immediate genetic benefits that you get. Like if I'm just having a one-night stand with somebody, the only thing I'm going to get from them, like if we're talking about things in terms of reproduction is going to be their genes, right?

39:10So I'm just like having a one night stand with you. All I'm getting from you is your genes, that's going to lead to the prioritization of cues that are related to genetic quality. And some of the things that we know are related to genetic quality are things like physical attractiveness, because generally the types of things that our brain perceives as attractive are things that are related to health, immune function. And when we're looking at attractiveness in men, it's also related to testosterone levels. And our brains women's brains see these things, these types of qualities as attractive. Because of course, over the course of history, women who zeroed in on those qualities and said, I want that as my mate, they would have had a greater number of successful offspring than women who preferred different traits.

39:52And so what we tend to see is that when women are short term mating, or just having like a casual sexual relationship with somebody, that's usually what they tend to zero in on is like sexiness, right? Like how sexy is this person? And sexy is just really, it's what our brain is perceiving as things that are related to good genes. Now, when women are choosing a long-term partner, there's a balance between wanting good genes for your offspring, so wanting somebody who's going to be sexy, but then also wanting somebody who's going to be somebody who cares and is going to contribute to provisioning and caregiving of yourself during a time of pregnancy and there soon after, but then also the care of your offspring.

40:34And so women have to balance their preference for sexiness and good genes types of qualities with also qualities related to provisioning, willingness to invest, willingness to be faithful and, you know, invest resources only in you and your children and not also the next door neighbor's children and so on. And so, you know, when women are in like long-term eating, I mean, most women would ideally in an ideal world would have somebody as a partner who has so much sexiness and then also all the resources and caring and provisioning. But unfortunately, there's not a lot of people out there that have all of those qualities.

41:10Yes, we are very few and far between. Well, what's really funny about that is there's a lot of research that finds that, you know, men who are like super sexy, they tend to not always be great at fidelity. And they tend to engage in more short term mating. So men with higher testosterone levels, we know that they tend to have more casual sex, they tend to have more extra pair fantasies, They tend to have more extra pair relationships when they're in relationships. There's a balance that you have to make if you're a woman and you're looking for somebody who's going to be giving you good genes and then also giving you investment.

41:45It's all about trying to figure out where you're going to be putting your chips, essentially. It's like, you know, you've got so many chips you can cash in in terms of choosing a partner. And where are you going to put those? Are you going to skew them towards sexiness? Are you going to shift them over this way and have it more balanced between sexiness and investment or, you know, somewhere in between? You see that problem with, well, Hollywood or popular, I should say powerful men, right? I think the research shows, and I could be wrong, that there's just a disproportionate number of affairs with powerful guys because they have more options, typically.

42:19Yeah, no, totally. And what's really funny about this is, you know, we see it with humans, but they've done really cute experimental work with birds where they'll take like a species of songbird, where, for example, if the females really like males who have bright plumage, where they'll take kind of an average male and they'll follow his mating behavior over the course of a season. And then they'll dye his feathers and make him have like these qualities that all of the females like. And all of a sudden, all the females are like, and these males just become absolute philanderers. I mean, they're just, they just are having sex with everybody.

42:54And then they take out the dye the next season. And then, you know, he's back to being the really good dad. Oh, my gosh. But yeah, so with songbirds, you see that they're as faithful as their options. And I mean, I think that in some degree, you know, that there's an element of this with humans. Obviously, there are some men, right, who have all the options in the world and are faithful. There are some men who have very few options, yet nonetheless managed to have a lot of extra pair of sex and, you know, and everything in between. But definitely, the number of options available to you is a contributing factor into the decision of fidelity.

43:27In the book, you discuss that when women see other ovulating women at high fertility, they often won't like that the men they're with are interacting with her. But that means that women can detect other women who are ovulating. Did I read that correctly? Yeah. So this is actually really fascinating. And it's obviously not something that we think about consciously, because I don't think that like if you showed me 100 women, I don't think I would be able to say, oh, she's ovulating and she's not, she's not and she is. But instead, our brain, again, our brain sees things in a way that are very much geared toward getting us to do things that historically would have helped to promote genetic replication, right?

44:06So reproduction. And so if I see 100 women, I can tell you who the most attractive is, or who the sexiest are, and who the most beautiful are. And our brain is likely picking up on all those cues that are related to fertility. And then those are informing those decisions. And so my brain, if I see a really sexy woman, I'm not going to want my partner to be near that person, right? Because that could be a threat. And so my brain is probably just perceiving sexiness cues. I'm not like necessarily seeing it as like, oh, that person is fertile. It's just like, oh, that person is a threat because that person is sexy.

44:40You know, there's a lot of research that shows that for both men and women, it's like the cues that we tend to find as sexy and beautiful in women are cues that are related to estrogen presence and fertility. Yeah, this is fascinating. I mean, this is the obvious question is why would women evolve this? And the answer is because they don't want the guy that they're with, who they've invested in, potentially partnered with to invest in somebody else, right? Yeah, well, exactly. I mean, it's like you have to know your competition. You know, it's like we have to understand who it is that we're out there working against.

45:11And same with men. It's like even though men are like, I can't tell if other guys are attractive. That's such nonsense. I know. That's like such bullshit. You got to have your head firmly up your rear if you can't tell that the six foot five guy, like Chris Helmsworth, oh, he's good looking. I mean, I guess so. You know, like, come on, man. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't have to be that extreme either for guys to feel threatened. I'm not super tall or anything like that. I'm, you know, 5 '10". But even you can feel like, why is this guy being mean to me? Just because I looked at it or like shook hands with his girlfriend or whatever.

45:42Like, this is ridiculous. And it's, oh, he's insecure about this. And you You can even hear, sometimes you get concrete evidence, right? Like, oh, well, you rolled up in a Tesla or something and the guy's like really jealous. It's just like, geez, man, calm down. It's got car seats in the back, for God's sake. Chill. That's so funny. It is interesting, though. And a lot of this hinges on the fact that guys have insecurity around other guys is case positive that guys can tell if another guy's attractive because they're not threatened by the portly waiter at the Italian restaurant. Right, right.

46:14Exactly. And what was also really interesting about that to me is that both men and women have an understanding of what the other sex is looking for. Because there are differences in the degree to which men and women prioritize different types of traits when they're choosing partners. And so, for example, if I see a woman who has this really amazing job, and she's like a ton of power and status and that sort of thing, and she's kind of average looking, I'm not going to be threatened by her at all. because I know that that's just not something that most men are like, wow, like she's so powerful.

46:46That's so amazing. She's got two PhDs. Yeah. It's like, wow. That is impressive. But like for a man who sees that, I mean, that's a threat. Yeah. And so it's like, we both have this, have this implicit awareness of like what plays out in the mating market within our own sex. And it's also that way we can maximize our own probability of getting what we want by being maximally competitive for what we're looking for, but also so we can keep an eye on our rivals. Yeah, it is a little bit of a sad state of affairs and totally unfair. Like, oh, she's got two PhDs. That's really impressive. Meanwhile, guys are like, yeah, but that booty dough.

47:21Like, come on, man. Like, come on. Is that it? Give me a break. Tell me about strippers and tipping during their cycle and while on the pill. This was just fascinating. I was just thinking like, wow, you can put a dollar amount on this. That was not, I did not expect that. Yeah, no, that was a really brilliantly done study. And it was a study that was done at a strip club. Of course. And the researchers. They must have had a great time running this. I was going to say, they had a line of research assistants out the door, like men saying, I would love to participate in this study. Yeah. I'm super interested in hormones, guys.

47:57Yeah. It's like, this is hormones, right? It's like hormones? Yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. Yeah. Yeah. I'm totally into that. They worked with women who were working as dancers at a strip club, and they had them all keeping a diary over the course of, I think it was two cycles. And all that they had to do is every day they logged in whether or not they're working, how many hours they worked, and how much tip money they earned. And then did you get your period today? Yes or no. And so they logged this over the course of two cycles. And then the researchers took the diaries. And the first thing that they did is they divided the diaries into two piles.

48:28One was a pile that was kept by women who were using hormonal birth control. So women who are on the pill or on the hormonal IUD or what have you. And the other stack of diaries was the diaries of the naturally cycling women. And then what they did is they mapped the tip earnings onto the women's cycles because they asked the women every day, did you get your period? And so they were able to know when the first day of their cycle was, right? And that is the day you get your period is the first day of your cycle. So they track that there. And then they look and see where the end of their period is.

48:57And then they sort of bisect that in half. It's usually around day 14 where ovulation is. And you're able to see when estrogen is rising in the cycle and when fertility is high for women who are naturally cycling. And then you're able to look at women who are using hormonal birth control and see whether or not they also have, you know, are there any differences in tip earnings that they get as a function of their cycle because they don't have changing sex hormones the way that naturally cycling women do. And what they found was that for women who are naturally cycling, you see that tip earnings, the average amount that women were pulling in each shift was increasing as a function of estrogen in the cycle.

49:36And in particular, what they find is that during that period of time, that five or so days prior to ovulation, and then the day of ovulation itself, that period of time was marked by having really high tip earnings. So they earn the most money across the cycle, right during what we call the peri-ovulatory window. It's that five days prior to ovulation and then on the day of ovulation itself when sex can lead to conception. And during that time, women are earning the most tip earnings. That's so funny. And then it falls when estrogen levels fall in the cycle. And then when estrogen levels climb a little bit in the second half of the cycle, you also see a little bit of an uptick in earnings again.

50:14And what this is showing us is that men are just, you know, instinctively responding to these cues that are related to the probability of pregnancy from sex, and that men are finding that these fertility cues as being really intoxicating. And we know from research that men prefer the scent of women when they're ovulating. So they like the way that their skin smells more, they tend to find them more attractive. In this study, like showed it perfectly. I mean, this very non reactive measure that quantifies how much interest men have in women showing that as estrogen rises, you get this increase in tip earnings.

50:50And then when they compared this to the natural or pardon me, when they compared this to the women who are on the pill, what they found is that there was no such increase for the pill takers. And of course, when you take birth control, it prevents you from ovulating. So you never get that big increase in estrogen, it keeps your estrogen levels really low. And the entirety of your cycle when you're on the pill is you have this pill that has relatively low levels of estrogen, and then relatively high levels of this synthetic progesterone or progestin, and you're getting that same hormonal message every day.

51:21And what we see is that there's no real differences in tip earnings across the cycle. They earn pretty consistently across, and they never get to that high that is reached by women who are on the pill, or not on the pill, but who are naturally cycling. That's so interesting. And so if you're a part-time exotic dancer, then choose your shifts based on the peri-ovulatory window? Yeah. So the five days prior to ovulation and then the day of ovulation itself. So like usually if you have a 28 day cycle, day nine to day 14 or 15, yeah, work that 10 hour shift. Work that pull. It's going to be worth it.

51:57So you can just take the rest of the month off. Yeah. If y 'all could only smell the hormones oozing out of me every time you support the fine products and services that support the show, well, that just got gross and personal. Anyway, we'll be right back. If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable over at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. If you can't remember the name of a sponsor, you can't find the code, shoot me an email jordan at jordanharbinger.com.

52:28I am more than happy to surface that code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now for the rest of part one with Dr. Sarah Hill. This is going to make me sound gross by association, but I don't care because it's for science. When I was in law school, I used to go out all the time, of course, because I was in college, and I had a friend, and he would say something like, that girl over there is on her period right now. And I would be like, how do you know this? And he would go, they're a little bit shinier than the other women, look around. And we would have drinks, and I'd be like, all right.

53:00It was one time where I was like, this is BS, we got to figure this out. And he just went around asking everyone. And a lot of them were like, excuse me, but we're like, no, no, no. It's a thing. He would try to come up with an explanation. Some people were offended, but a lot of them were like, yes, no. So we actually did this a few times and he was very often correct. That's fascinating. I had a student, I teach this really fun class called evolution, sex and the brain. And we're like talking about all of these kinds of things. That sounds so interesting. My goodness. Yeah. It's so fun. And I was, I had the student in my class and after class one day, he came up And he said, I have this skill.

53:35Superpower. Yeah. He's like, I have this superpower. I know you're going to think that it's crazy, but I've had 100 % accuracy on this. He's like, I can smell from a woman's breath whether or not she's on her period. That's interesting. Yeah. And he's like, there's something in their breath that I'm picking up on. And I'm always right. I've never been wrong. Wow. And I'm like, what is that? That's also something you don't necessarily want all the time. Like you're ordering at McDonald's and you're like, I don't need to know that. Yeah. Come on. I know. Well, it's so funny because he's saying that to me and I'm like, okay, well, you know, that's just dumping Tic Tacs in your mouth.

54:07Like, really? Tell me more tomorrow, though, not today. Maybe next week, actually. We'll have this conversation. I mean, it's so fascinating. And what's also really interesting about that is that if there is something that you can pick up on, I mean, that's something that you could use as some sort of a metric. I don't know, because I'm like, there's got to be something that you can be measuring that'll give you insight into hormones that, you know, that we aren't able to do yet. because one of the big things in women's health right now is a lot of people are trying to come up with ways that women are able to better keep track of what's actually going on hormonally with themselves.

54:40Because especially, you know, as women go through the perimenopausal transition and like with pregnancy, and or there's somebody who's trying to get pregnant and their fertility, it's like women want so much information about what's going on in their bodies. And it's so hard to get it in a way that's like cheap and easy to get and is available to everyone. And so everybody's trying to figure out, like, how can we measure hormones cheaply? Like, how can we do this without taking blood? How can we do this where women can measure this every day so that way they can see how their cycle is performing?

55:11And so whenever I hear something like that, I'm like, what is it? And can we measure it cheaply? Because as soon as something like that is available to women, I think it's going to be like it's going to change the way that we do things like tracking, for example, the menopausal transition or fertility for women who are trying to get pregnant. It seems like that's a breathalyzer away from being able to detect that because if that guy can smell it and the human nose is not that sensitive, right? I mean, those dogs that can smell cancer. No human is like, I think you have cancer, right? It's more like maybe if you had a pastrami sandwich, I could detect that.

55:44But that's about as far as we go. That's quite a superpower. Yeah. By the way, has that stripper study, sorry, exotic dancer study, has that been replicated? No, I don't know that anybody has even tried to. Somebody get after it, scientists. I know. You know, I'm something of a scientist myself. Yeah, that seems like an opportunity to just, you know, make sure that this study is just hammered down properly for the sake of science. I would think that there would be a bunch of scientists trying to replicate that. I think that the fact that it hasn't is a reflection of the fact that we are seeing a lot more women going into science.

56:16And so why wouldn't women also be interested in this? I mean, it's not maybe as interesting as it would be to men, but they would have no problem getting research assistance for sure. They would have, like you said, a line out the door. What is the method by which the pill works? I mean, without getting super, super in the weeds, because look, we know it prevents ovulation, but what is the mechanism using as few of those$10 words as possible? Big, terrible words. Yeah. So essentially, it's fooling your brain into thinking that you just ovulated. Okay. And so after you ovulate, like one of the things that I talked about is the first half of your cycle is just all about releasing estrogen.

56:51And that's what happens when an egg is getting ready to be released. after that egg gets released, that empty egg follicle is what starts releasing that other hormone progesterone. And when progesterone is being released, that actually tells the brain, don't stimulate the egg follicles because you just ovulated. And we want to see whether or not that egg gets fertilized and implants. And so when you have progesterone getting released, your brain doesn't stimulate your ovaries. And so what the pill does is it gives you this daily dose of the synthetic progesterone or progestin. And this is what tells your brain not to stimulate your ovaries.

57:28And so that's how it works. I would love to get some stories of women who met men on or off the pill because the change in preferences is very interesting. And you see a lot now in the news about, well, it's sort of like clickbaity stuff, like the birth control pill makes women choose effeminate men. And it's turning it into this like whole societal crisis instead of something that's kind of a temporary effect that some people maybe experience. Right. Yeah. So there is some research that finds that women who have chosen their partner when they were on the pill, and then they discontinue the pill, that on average, it can create some differences in how women feel about their partner.

58:07And what's really interesting about it is that what it finds is that it can either increase or decrease your attraction to your partner. And so for some women, when they go off of the pill, because the pill is oftentimes, I mean, it kills your free levels of testosterone. So it causes the release of what's known as sex hormone binding globulin, which binds up all your testosterone and makes it unusable. And when you're not ovulating, that combination of things tends to kill libido. And so a lot of times when women are on the pill, their sex drive goes in the toilet. And when they go off of it, all of a sudden, they're like, oh my God, sex.

58:42And then they're really into their partner and they're super attracted to them. But for some women, they go off of it. And even though they're having this increase in sexual desire, they're realizing that their partner isn't really what they want. And like, oh, no. And that does happen. And it's not, it doesn't happen most of the time, but it does happen. And it's possible. I mean, it's like, we know that hormones nudge our partner preferences. There's been research for decades showing that, like, for example, when estrogen is rising and high across the cycle, that this tends to make women almost more shallow.

59:15It's like all of a sudden, we're really into all of those genetic quality kinds of cues, things like sexiness and facial symmetry and testosterone markers. And women aren't having any estrogen surges in the cycle. You're never getting that, you know, sort of cueing into these things that women find sexy. And it's possible that for some women, because they're not really prioritizing those kinds of cues when they're choosing their partners, that all of a sudden, when they're off the pill, and they start to care about those things again, that they realize that their partner isn't really hitting all the right buttons.

59:47And that can be really upsetting. I've talked to women who've gotten divorced, and I've talked to women who've, you know, had really tumultuous breakups that happened as a result of going off of hormonal birth control, because they realize like, oh my gosh, this isn't like, I don't like the way you smell anymore. And then I've also had women who go off the pill and are like, Oh my gosh, like my partner is exhausted. Poor guy. Yeah, because I'm like so sexually excited to be around them. And I hadn't been, you know, for so long. And so whenever you have hormonal changes, and given how big of a role our hormones play in terms of partner choice and attraction, you're going to get these changes in sexual behavior, or potentially get these changes in, in satisfaction with your existing partner.

1:00:33And we just actually did a new study and it hasn't come out yet, but hopefully it will be ready. We're getting it ready to submit for publication. But we worked with Natural Cycles, which is a cycle tracking app for women who are not on hormonal birth control. But we captured new users who had just discontinued birth control. And then we asked them, what type of birth control were you on when you met your partner? And for some of them, it's hormonal birth control. And for others, it's something else or nothing. And we looked at women's sexual frequency, you know, over the course of multiple cycles, and then looked at whether or not we had differences in the frequency of sex between people who chose their partners when they were on the pill or women who chose their partners when they were off.

1:01:16What we find is that you get more sex within these couples that were chosen when the woman was naturally cycling. So they're having more sex across the cycle relative to women who chose their partners when they were on the pill. And again, this is just consistent with the idea that if you choose your partner when you're off the pill, you're going to be going through this regular fluctuation where you have this period of time when estrogen is kind of driving the bus in terms of the brain. And estrogen really likes those sexy qualities like testosterone and good genes markers and somebody who's got signs of good immune functioning and all these other things.

1:01:51And women who are on the pill don't have that. They don't go through that period. and it seems like what's likely happening is when you go off the pill and everybody's naturally cycling is that for women who chose their partners when they were going through that, they're experiencing that. They're like, oh yeah, yes, yes, yes. And that for women who chose their partners and they're off the pill, for some of them, they're going to be having that exact response and then for some of them, they're not. And it's because their brain wasn't prioritizing those cues when they chose their partner. It seems like that could lead, the obvious conclusion is that it would lead to less relationship satisfaction potentially.

1:02:23It could. Maybe. Do you pick based on mate investment and financial stability instead? I mean, maybe not financial stability, but stability instead? Right. So that's a really great question. And there was a study that was done, gosh, probably 10 years ago now, where they looked at different types of relationship satisfaction and depending on whether women chose their partners when they were on or off of the pill. And what they found is that women who chose their partners when they were naturally cycling, that they were more satisfied with the sexual and attraction related aspects of the relationship.

1:02:53So like how much sexual desire do you have? Like how satisfied are you with sexual frequency? How satisfied are you with your attraction to your partner and so on? But then they found that women who chose their partners when they were on the pill, that they had more satisfaction with things like their partner's earning capacity and their partner's like just like how good of a partner they are, like how much of a team player they are. And so it suggests that women are just kind of cuing into different things and like prioritizing different qualities. And what was really interesting with that particular paper is that they found that women who chose their partners when they were on the pill, that they actually had a lower divorce rate.

1:03:31Yeah. So, which is really interesting because it's like, so this sounds like a question that you would ask like with your roommates when you're in college after like smoking dope or like drinking too many beers. Yeah. Where you're like, what is a successful relationship? Right. And it's like, what is that? you know, and it could be choosing somebody who's just a really good partner and, you know, in financial provisioning and that you feel really satisfied with that. It could be the sexual piece, right? Maybe that's what we're, I mean, nobody really knows, right? It's just like, you hope to have all of it.

1:04:03Yeah. Right. Like, I think all of us, when we choose our long-term partners are like hoping that we're going to be satisfied in all of these different domains equally, but it's like, what is satisfaction? And at least, you know, if we're going to define relationship success as togetherness, which I wouldn't, but many people do say like a successful relationship is whether you're still together. If you're defining relationship success that way, then maybe the pill leads you to choose smarter partners, you know, like to choose more wisely. I don't want guys to be like spiking their wife's pumpkin spice lattes with the birth control pill, but it is interesting.

1:04:39Super interesting. Yeah, this is quite fascinating. Do you know what women tend to prefer when on or off the pill? I know there's a photograph experiment where you kind of get preferences. Tell me about that. What you tend to find is that women who choose their partner, like women generally when they're on the pill, they don't have this preference for masculinized male faces that you get among naturally cycling women. So naturally cycling women, particularly if you happen to capture them in your study at times in the cycle when estrogen is high, women are really into things like facial, vocal, and behavioral masculinity.

1:05:17So somebody who looks like a manly man and estrogen loves testosterone. And that's, you know, just kind of the way that it is. And when you blunt estrogen levels, which you do when you're on the pill, because you're not ovulating, and it's a creation of an egg that actually produces all that estrogen. For women who are on the pill, when you're not having those estrogen surges where you're like really cuing into these things, you tend to get a preference for a slightly less masculinized male face, male voice, male behavior. So that women just don't seem to be, you know, zeroing in on those qualities the way that naturally cycling women do.

1:05:53And now when we talk about these differences, you know, it can sound alarming. And you know, like, oh my gosh, like women who are on the pill are choosing these like namby pamby girly men. But when you look at the differences, like for example, in the photograph study where they had women like essentially using a little slider scale to create their ideal male face, what they found is that women who are naturally cycling made a slightly more masculinized male face compared to the pill takers. But when you look at the faces side by side, I mean, it's not like you're like, oh my God, like, how could the same woman have, you know, chosen this or that, depending on whether she was on the pill or not.

1:06:30Instead, they're just slight differences. And essentially what estrogen does is it just makes us more sensitive to minute differences in faces based on the presence or absence of high levels of testosterone. You do get differences, but they're not so great that it's probably going to matter in most women's lives. For some women, it does, right? And we do know, and I've seen it more times than I can count, where you'll have women who have an experience where all of a sudden they're off the pill and they're like, this isn't gonna work out anymore. Or women who are like, oh my God, my partner is like, this is awesome.

1:07:05But for a lot of women, because these are small nudges, it's not gonna nudge you out of attraction or nudge you into attraction. For some women it will, but for most women it won't. I realize this is probably one of the creepiest non sequiturs I could ever have on this show, but talking about hormones and faces, pre-teen girls love these BTS looking guys, like the boy band look and they really look like sometimes I look at the photos and I go, is that a girl with short hair? And they're like, no, it's a guy with like seven earrings and makeup on. And it's like, these guys are really popular. There's obviously some hormonal differences between young people and adults.

1:07:41And I'm wondering if that's why they choose these really girly looking guys to be in these boy, but those guys are already young themselves. But there's guys that are that age that have facial hair and they're nowhere to be found. Right. That's so interesting. I bet you're right, because, you know, a lot of those preteen girls aren't ovulating regularly. And so they're not having this big surge in estrogen, which is, again, you know, that's like the thing that really tends to make our brain really cued into those masculinized male faces. So no, totally. That's really interesting. Yeah, I'm going to leave it there because that's just about as creepy.

1:08:13People are going to be like, dude. They'll be like, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know this Jordan guy. But it just, whenever I see these guys, I'm just thinking, what woman is going, oh, he's so cute? And the answer is a child. A literal child is the one who's thinking that these people are attractive. Otherwise, they look like. It's like a non-threatening version of a male. It's almost like a cartoon male. Yes, a cartoon anime guy with nothing. Yeah, like two-dimensional caricature. Like totally non-threatening. Yeah, no, that's so super interesting. It'd be interesting to see whether or not like the age at which girls switch out of that coincides with menarche and the timing that they get their periods.

1:08:51It makes sense that because I know that like older women go to Backstreet Boys or what is it? New Kids on the Block reunion concerts. That's a totally different thing. That's not what we're talking about here. Totally different thing. That's nostalgia. But when I look at, again, like BTS, that Korean K-pop band and some of that might be cultural, but I'm trying to think of any boy band that's not that one because I'm not it's not really my scene. There's a lot, I'm sure. And they all kind of generically look like similar. They're not leaning into the facial. Even like the OG Backstreet Boys, there was like one guy with a five o 'clock shadow to appeal to like a certain demographic.

1:09:25And then he wasn't even kind of nobody even remembers that guy's name, right? Because he wasn't the popular one. He wasn't the front man, so to speak. So it seems like and I'm worried I'm overstating this. So please jump in here. It seems like women should try to choose long term partners when they're off the pill if they plan to not take the pill throughout their whole life, which is probably, you know, not something you should do anyway with medication. Right. I mean, honestly, I think, yes. If a woman does not need to be on hormonal birth control and she's looking for a long-term partner, my recommendation would be that you're not on it when you pick it.

1:09:57Hormones affect the way that our brain does its daily business. And that includes things like attraction and the idea of being under the spell of a different hormonal profile when you're doing something as important as choosing your partner or even choosing your career. Because, you know, I've met women who were on the pill. They were like a worker ant is how they describe them. they're like a drone where they're just like work, work, work, work, work. They go off the pill and all of a sudden they realize that they want more work-life balance because all of a sudden they're like kids and relationships.

1:10:28And they start thinking more holistically about these other things that are important to them. And then their life explodes because they made all of these other choices when they were on the pill and now they're off of it. And they're realizing that this isn't exactly what they wanted. And so I think that for women who don't need to be on it for reasons of pregnancy prevention. Don't, don't. It's like you're going to be living with these other hormones most of your life. And so I think that choosing a life that fits you with the set of hormones that you're going to be spending most of your life with is probably a good idea.

1:11:02Although I would say, man, short term, use that pill because getting pregnant by the wrong guy trumps pretty much anything else that we've discussed here. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. I mean, it's like with everything, it's about trade-offs. So it's not necessarily that birth control is bad, because as you were saying, I mean, there is nothing that will derail a person's life more than an unplanned pregnancy. And this is particularly true in our current environment where women aren't able to get safe legal abortions in many states. And so like, not having that as a worry, I think is such a huge benefit to women and not having your life go off the rails.

1:11:37So for women who don't have a different means of avoiding pregnancy, then I mean, absolutely. It's a great way to do it. You know, one of the things I write about my book, and I'll say it here too, is that knowing everything that I know, I was still been on it when I was on it. Because for me, like the need to prevent pregnancy and be able to plan and make plans for, you know, graduate school, and then building my research lab, all of those things were so important to me. And it's benefited me in so many ways. And even though it comes with trade-offs. Those are trade-offs that I was willing to make then, even though I didn't know I was making them.

1:12:15But now, knowing everything that I know, I would still make those trade-offs. I would just be more informed about what it is that I was doing. I love this. I love the career idea that you mentioned. Maybe don't become a partner at a law firm until you've spent three or six months off of the pill. How long does it take actually getting off the pill before your brain goes, hey, I'm thinking differently? Three months seems too short. Yeah. I think it differs for everybody. I mean, for me, I started to notice differences within about three months. Oh, okay. But it can take a lot longer than that, right?

1:12:48So for example, if somebody was making a, like, I don't know about my partner, I don't know about my career. I mean, I'm thinking six months or a year. I mean, it took me several years to realize that I don't get overwhelmed super easily, or that I don't have, you know, anxiety, or it takes you a while to figure out your self narrative. And so I think that for a lot of women, it probably would take six months or so before they're feeling like, gosh, you know, I'm really unhappy at my job. Burned out, yeah. Like, yeah, like this isn't what I want in my life. Like, I don't think that you would probably figure that out within three months.

1:13:20I think that would take a little bit longer. It seems like also a type A personality who's a partner at a law firm or a surgeon or something like that taking on extra shifts, you're going to try and plow through that for as long as possible. You almost have to burn out and go, what is my deal? I used to be fine doing this. Am I getting old? And the answer is, oh, I stopped. You also have to be aware that the birth control pill does this in the first place because you might not even put it together that you stop taking the pill and suddenly you burn out. You might not even notice the correlation between those two things.

1:13:46Right. No, I mean, absolutely. It's not on the pillbox. Right. No, it's not on the label exactly. I definitely want to do more with you here and do part two. I want to talk about the other drawbacks of birth control. There's a lot of stuff that can go, quote unquote, wrong with it. I also want to talk about the recent media storm with respect to birth control from the right and the left, turning it into a political discussion. I definitely want to go through that because I think that's whenever we put health through a political filter, it's just never good, really, in my opinion, because your body doesn't care about your politics.

1:14:18It cares about science. And so I definitely am looking forward to that. So stay tuned for part two, y 'all. We'll be back with Dr. Sarah Hill. Here's a trailer for another episode of the Jordan Harbinger Show with the legendary Esther Perel as she sheds light on cheating, not just being about the thrill, but about finding a part of ourselves that we've lost. Affairs also happen often in good relationships. They're not just symptoms of relationships that have gone completely awry. Sometimes a person goes looking elsewhere, not because they want to find someone else, but because they want to find another self.

1:14:54Nuclear family life is a bitch. It's really a stressful situation on people, especially if they have on top of it young kids, pets and in-laws and older parents and all the other responsibilities of life. We were not conceived to live like this. What's going on is this. There is what people fight about and then there is what people fight for. Power and control, that's the hidden agendas of most fights. Whose decision matters most? Who has priority? Is it about care and closeness? Can I trust you? Do you have my back? Can I rely on you? And respect and recognition. Do you value me? Do I matter?

1:15:35Much of couples' life, when things begin to go a little bit awry, is putting the responsibility on the other person without paying attention enough to what can I do to make this better? Or in what way am I contributing to my partner feeling the way they do? So it's very important what is relational and what is individual and where do you start to make sense of this complicated and often very painful experience. To hear how our fights can actually make our relationships stronger and what the future holds for love in the age of AI, check out episode 9-1-1 on The Jordan Harbinger Show. That's the end of part one.

1:16:14Part two out in just a little bit here. All things Dr. Sarah Hill will be in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support this show. Also, our newsletter, a little tidbit in two minutes a week, every Wednesday, it's called Wee Bit Wiser, something that'll affect your decisions, your psychology, your relationships. Again, in under two minutes, it is a great companion to the show. JordanHarbinger.com slash news is where you can find it. Don't forget about Six Minute Networking over at SixMinuteNetworking.com.

1:16:46I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter or Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting, because the greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. Now, if you know somebody who might take birth control, is taking birth control, did take birth control, so a woman, basically, or a guy who's interested in interesting things like this, hormones and the body, share this episode with them.

1:17:19Frankly, I find this stuff fascinating. I don't know who wouldn't be interested in this. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. Shopify's point of sale system helps you sell at every stage of your business. Need a fast and secure way to take payments in person? We've got you covered. How about card readers you can rely on anywhere you sell? Thanks, have a good one. Yep, that too. Want one place to manage all your online and in-person sales? That's kind of our thing. Wherever you sell, businesses that grow, grow with Shopify.

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