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The Jordan Harbinger Show - Episode 1035: James Sexton | A Divorce Lawyer's Guide to Lasting Love Part One
Episode Overview In this episode, host Jordan Harbinger speaks with James Sexton, a renowned divorce lawyer, about the realities of marriage, love, and the factors that contribute to successful relationships. This conversation provides insights which aim to prevent people from facing the difficulties associated with divorce.
Key Themes and Concepts
- The Statistics of Marriage
- Failure Rate: Roughly 56% of first marriages end in divorce.
- Economic Factors: There is often an unspoken economic aspect to relationships that influences their dynamics and decisions.
- The Nature of Love
- Rapid Onset of Love: People often fall in love quickly, feeling an intense connection.
- Slow Dissolution: Conversely, falling out of love tends to be a gradual process, often building up to an eventual realization.
- Communication and Criticism
- Toxic Humor: Constantly criticizing or joking about a partner can be damaging, even if it seems harmless.
- Importance of Support: Partners should ideally be each other's cheerleaders, providing support rather than falling into patterns of negativity.
- Preventative Maintenance in Relationships
- Proactive Approach: Just like regular check-ups for dental health, couples should engage in preventative maintenance for their relationships to avoid significant issues.
- Conversations Before Conflicts: Establishing communication protocols when everything is fine can help mitigate conflicts later.
- Understanding Partner Dynamics
- Nature of Individuals: Sexton emphasizes the idea that people often do not change significantly after marriage. The traits that surface during divorce often existed during the marriage.
- Coping Mechanisms: People tend to revert to their true selves under stress, revealing character traits that may have been masked earlier.
- The Psychological Underpinnings of Relationships
- Romantic Decisions: Often, people ignore the psychological consequences of their romantic choices, sometimes repeating unhealthy patterns in relationships.
- External Pressures: Societal expectations can pressure individuals into marriage without fully contemplating the reasons why.
Key Takeaways
- Ask "Why?": When it comes to marriage, instead of just celebrating, critically evaluate the reasons behind the decision to marry.
- Combat Negativity: Avoid the default of trash-talking partners in social settings; it can create a toxic environment that undermines relationships.
- Seek Clarity and Understanding: Encourage open dialogue about feelings and expectations to foster a healthy partnership.
- Prioritize Emotional Maintenance: Just as one would maintain physical health, emotional health in a relationship requires regular check-ins and discussions.
Conclusion The podcast sets the stage for deeper insights into relationships and marriage, promising to continue the conversation in Part Two. James Sexton’s experiences as a divorce lawyer provide a unique perspective that challenges conventional views on love and partnership.
Resources For full show notes and resources discussed in this episode, visit [jordanharbinger.com/1035](https://jordanharbinger.com/1035).
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Additional Notes
- Sexton’s Perspective: Despite his profession, Sexton believes in love but acknowledges the importance of being realistic about marriage's challenges.
- Future Conversations: The discussion hints at more strategies and thoughts on sustaining relationships in the follow-up episode.
This episode serves as a practical guide for listeners looking to enhance their relationships and avoid the pitfalls that often lead to divorces.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:28This episode is sponsored in part by Dell. This episode is sponsored in part by 1-800-CONTACTS. You know that last pair of contacts panic? My wife, Jen, knows it way too well. She's had these mornings where she's out of contacts and stuck wearing these old glasses she's got to keep wiping clean with her sleeve. But now, she makes sure to load up ahead of time because her next set is always on the way from 1-800-CONTACTS. They're the only major retailer that lets you renew your prescription online, so Jen gets her same doctor-prescribed contacts fast with free shipping without leaving the house.
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1:23Getting contacts doesn't have to be a hassle. Let 1-800-CONTACTS get you the lenses you need right now. Order online at 1-800-CONTACTS.com or download the free 1-800-CONTACTS app today. Coming up next on The Jordan Harbinger Show. People's relationships fail, whether married or not. We fall in love really fast. It's instantaneous almost, and chemical, and pheromonal, and all that stuff. But we fall out of love like we go bankrupt, or like we gain weight, very slowly and then all at once. It's this quick rush, you know? And look, I mean, falling feels like flying for a little while, you know, until you hit the ground.
2:05Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers, even the occasional war correspondent, neuroscientist, real-life pirate, and special operator. If you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about it, I suggest our episode starter packs.
2:35These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion and negotiation, psychology and geopolitics, disinformation and cyber warfare, crime and cults, and more. That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today on the show, divorce lawyer James Sexton explains why marriage is the most legally significant thing we can ever do other than dying. There's a lot in this episode from relationship advice, divorce advice, big mistakes people make when married and when getting divorced, how to pick a partner, why being hot is actually an investment for many of us, why he doesn't believe in marriage as a divorce lawyer but still believes in love, and a whole lot more.
3:16We went for a really long time. The studio basically had to kick us out. So this one is a two-parter. I know you're really going to enjoy it, even if this topic might seem a little odd for the show. At first, I sort of balked, too, until I started to dive in. So you'll have the same reaction. This episode made me realize just how much I love my wife. And like I said, I think you're going to have a similar reaction here. Here we go with James Sexton.
3:41Tell me about the idea that you divorced the person you married, because that's it's obvious. And yet it's like, oh, wait a minute. I mean, a lot of people say you don't divorce the person you married, right? So that was kind of what that's born of. I've had a lot of people say to me, well, you know, when the ring comes on, the mask comes off, you know? And when you marry somebody, you get to see their true face. But when you divorce them, you really see their true face. And I think to some degree, there's a little bit of truth to that. And I think Wittgenstein said, to know a thing, know its limits.
4:10When you push it past its tolerances, its true nature emerges. So I think you do see a very different side of someone when you put them into conflict with you, right? Like, you know, where loyalties lie when something's put under stress. I mean, in times of abundance, you know, everybody's very like, yeah, whatever, gregarious. Whereas when there's times of scarcity, all of a sudden, it's like, well, wait a minute, you know, this half's mine or this piece is mine. So divorce brings out something very primal, I think, in people, some people. But the idea that like, you know, I can't believe that this person is being, you know, so petty or I can't believe this person is so antagonistic or so narcissistic or so focused on themselves rather than the children.
4:52And then you talk to the client and you get as a divorce lawyer, the history of the marriage in real detail, because it's like the clay from which I build my narrative, you know, when I'm representing somebody in court and you just see a long lines, like, well, how did you not know? Like this person is the same person you were married to. Like I have a client right now who I got in, I don't want to say an argument with my own client, but at the negotiating table and in the courtroom, I'm going to say whatever has to be said to advocate for my client's point of view. But behind closed doors, I'm very blunt and candid with my clients.
5:21I really try to say to them, you know, look, I'd rather you pay her than pay me. I'd rather that you, you know, get this resolved. And I'll talk to them about what battles are worth fighting and which ones aren't worth fighting because sometimes they don't see that clearly. Like there was a time in my career where whatever a person wanted to fight for, I would fight for it. Sure. And then they'd call me like two years after their divorce and say, you know, why did we spend$5 ,000 arguing over this$3 ,000 thing? And I'd go, well, because you wanted to. And I told you, you were going to do that.
5:47And you said, I don't care. Let's do it. And they're like, yeah, but you were thinking clearly. I wasn't. And I, you know, I get that. Yeah. But when you see people in that frame of mind, you find yourself being put in a position as I was just recently, where you say to someone like, okay, but why do you think, like, there are some problems that don't have a judicial solution. Right. Like you married an awful person and then you proceeded to have two children with that awful person. Like this was your solution to the problem. Like, oh, I married this person. And then right away, it was obvious they had substance use disorder or mental health issues or narcissistic tendencies or whatever myriad of transgressions they were involved in.
6:28And then when you went, you know what I'll do that's going to fix this? Not I'm going to get divorced. Not we're going to go to counseling. Not I'm going to say to this person, if you don't go to therapy, I'm not going to work with you. I'm not going to stay with you in a relationship. Your solution was let's have a couple of kids. Which to me, I don't know that there's a solution to that problem. I can create some bumpers. I can get a judge to issue some orders that are going to, you know, keep this person in line. And hopefully everybody drives a little slower when the cops are behind them. So now that they know there's a judge watching what they do, maybe they'll put on their best face.
6:56But I don't think marrying someone changes the fundamental tenets of who they are. No. And I don't think divorcing someone, yeah, you see the organism under stress, but they're not going to be a fundamentally different. Like if they were a fair-minded person during the marriage, if they were someone prone to compromise or someone who would concede the possibility of their own error pretty readily, they're probably still going to be that. Yeah. The idea that somebody transforms into this monster, you never saw it coming. Well, and that's, look, I understand that creature in our imaginations, you know?
7:30Like I know as a human being, I do that all the time, especially in relationships. Like you always imagine like, because I think there's so much vulnerability in being in a romantic relationship. Like you're really showing this person your soft spots and you're, you can't help. I mean, I know I can't help but think like, oh, if they ever weaponized that, like I'm sharing with this person such an, you know, intimacy, people equate intimacy with sexuality. But intimacy is defined as the ability to be completely yourself with another person. And so for me, I know, I've always found that being emotionally very open with someone and being very like, that's the thing my mom used to do or my dad used to do, or this is like my soft spot that like if somebody hits that, like, oh, it stings.
8:15and that can be so necessary to have a good relationship like to be able to say to someone like hey here's my blind spot or here's the part of me that's wounded like can we you know maybe we can help heal because we break in relationship and we heal in relationship so I think it's really really important and necessary in relationships to be vulnerable and to be brave in that way you know and it has to be scary because it if it's not scary it's not brave you know but when you do that But of course, how could you not in your mind go like, oh my God, if they, you know, they've got this ammo on me, they know my soft spots now.
8:50It's like Scientology. Yeah, exactly right. It's your end group. I don't think any of it came from, you know, a space alien or a volcano. But yeah, I mean, it's definitely stuff deep inside of us that I don't think we can change, you know. Yeah, it's, I guess if they're nickel and diming during the marriage, they're nickel and diming during the divorce. If they're vindictive during the marriage, they're vindictive during the divorce. That's been my experience. And what I've seen a lot of people go through ringside, you know, is exactly that experience. And, and again, the other way, which is like, I was a server for many years.
9:21I worked in restaurants all through college and even part of high school and graduate school. So whenever I go to a restaurant, like I wildly over tip, I'm mindful of, of the demands of that. And when I'm hiring, you know, for my firm, I have a lot of employees and every single one of them, I make sure that they worked in food service at some point. Because once you, listen, if you've slung, you know, prime rib for$6.99 and gone home at two in the morning, you know, like if you've hustled for an hour and a half for a table to get a$3 tip, like you're thankful for every, I'm still, I've been doing this job as a lawyer for 25 years.
9:55I still, every day that I go home, I don't smell like prime rib and it's not two in the morning. I'm lucky. You're like, I'm ahead of the game. Yeah, I'm so ahead of the game because that was such a challenging physically, mentally, you know, like, and for people just love to beat up on their servers, you know. So I am so profoundly aware of that, having done that job, that I try to be really, really sympathetic to any server who's providing service to me. But I similarly, if you have that kind of approach to people and you're getting divorced, you're probably going to be pretty like, you know, laid back and thoughtful.
10:30And okay, well, look, who you are in the marriage and who you are in the divorce is very often the same. And sometimes that's great. And sometimes that's awful. Have you ever seen anybody who was kind of crappy during the marriage, but then stepped up during the divorce? Yeah, I've seen that a lot. But it's usually because they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. It's not uncommon. And I always tell clients when they get caught cheating or their spouse gets caught cheating, there's a window. There's a very short window where this person feels very badly usually for what they've done.
11:00And they're like, okay, I'm going to just throw money at this, or I'm going to throw reasonableness at this and just try to salvage what's left of being like a good guy or good woman in this person's eyes. And unfortunately, I tell most of those clients, like it's never going to be enough. Like you could give three quarters instead of half and they'd be like, and you sure, cause you better have, cause you stink. Like they just are so mad and they're so hurt that there's nothing you can throw at it. That's going to make it better. But then eventually what happens is during that window of like, oh my God, I feel very guilty.
11:32And let me just throw some things at this and hope that it works. That window closes and turns into, well, you know, I did this because you were cold and you were always so cold. You didn't meet my needs. And that suddenly it turns it. And that's a perfect storm. because you've got the person who's been cheated on and the cheater who now has the permission of their own conscience to have been cheating and was trying to be nice and was trying to be conciliatory and now is like you smacked my hand away and now boom gloves are off and we're gonna throw hands man it's you've said that marriage is negligent behavior tell me about that i mean we probably have to define negligence yeah well i think it fits the definition of negligence so negligence is a failure to perceive a substantial and unjustifiable risk of serious harm yeah right That's the definition.
12:15Black's Law. We're law school grads. So that's versus recklessness, which is a conscious disregard for a substantial and unjustifiable risk of harm. And so you might remember from torts in the first year, the BPL analysis, right? I mean, a little bit. Really? Yeah. See, it's got stuck in my head, you know, but yeah. And I have one of those memories that I know the entire of Jay-Z's Reasonable Doubt album, you know, but I can't remember my kids' birthdays. But I have the whole, yeah, the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. My ex-wife thinks it's hilarious. So the reality is, is that negligence is defined essentially as what's called a BPL analysis, which is the burden of not engaging in activity.
12:52And what is it relative to the likelihood of harm and the seriousness of harm? So if there's a likelihood of harm, but it's minimal harm, then it may not be negligent, especially if not doing the thing is a substantial burden, right? Whereas, so like driving, for example, if you drive, there is a substantial likelihood you'll get in a car accident at some point, and a car accident can be a very high degree of harm. However, refraining from driving would be very difficult to do, especially in some areas of the world, right? So driving can't be said to be a negligent activity. Skydiving, okay, the risk of harm is fairly high.
13:28If something goes wrong, the risk of catastrophic harm is incredibly high. And the problem or the burden of refraining from skydiving is minimal. So that is negligent, an inherently negligent activity, right? So marriage, you could pretty easily argue with a 56 % fail rate. Okay, so that's the problem. Is that the stat now? That's the current stat. Okay. That's the current stat. It's always a moving target, but the current stat is 56. Now, again, that's just the divorce rate. So that's the people who went in and filed a divorce and are getting divorced. Okay. What percentage of people stay together for the kids or for religious reasons or because they don't want to give away half their stuff?
14:05Like that's a problem. I would imagine a fairly high number. Sure. But let's just forget those people. Let's say that as success stories of some kind. Like the, well, you know what? We're winning the battle because we're not getting divorced. We're both miserable, but this endurance contest continues and we're winning. Setting a terrible example for our kids. Yeah, we're setting a terrible example. This is exactly right. We are going to hang in there and we're going to not get divorced. You know, it's really admirable, I guess, in some way. Is this 56 % of couples or 56 % of marriages? Of marriages.
14:31Okay, so the people who get divorced like five times, they're skewing this a little bit. Yes, but they represent a very small percentage of the population. And if you look at just the first marriage failure rate, it's like 48%. That's pretty bad. It's still really bad. Put it in relative terms. Toyota had a car in the 90s that had a 0.0001 brake failure rate. And they recalled the entire line of vehicles until they could fix it. Yeah, yeah. Because they were like, that is an unacceptable risk. 0.0001, not even 1%. But let's use 56, let's use 48, whatever you want to use. This is a huge number.
15:07it is more likely than not that it will fail. So what is the likelihood of harm that's high? What is the severity of the harm? Most people who've been through a divorce will tell you it was one of the most traumatic experiences of their life. Some will tell you it was absolutely catastrophic. I mean, any of us who've ever had a breakup know like a breakup is tough. A breakup is you can say to anybody in any culture, like breakup and they go, oh, yeah, like we all know that feeling in the pit of your stomach and you know like that we all have that so a divorce is just that on steroids you know yeah so the trick is to be lonely and play video games by yourself all day i mean listen there's a school of thought that says that not having uh extended relationships with any kind of intimacy and just sort of lead pipe cruelty and mercenary sensibility is the way to go i don't know i don't know that i'm the expert on the the right way to do it you know i my mother used to always say that she couldn't define intelligence but she could spot stupid a mile away.
16:02I don't really know what makes people happy, but I know what doesn't. I know what makes them miserable. And I can see a lot of that in the context of relationships. And so in terms of negligence, yeah, it is more likely than not going to cause serious harm. So the bigger question on that calculation then is what's the burden of not doing it? Which to me gets us back to the fundamental question, which is, if you said to me, I'm getting married, the proper response culturally is, oh, that's so great. Congratulations. Congratulations. When? What kind of cake? Are you going to be on an island? Are you going to do a big thing?
16:40Are you going to have a band or a DJ? What are you going to do? Instead of, why? Why? Yeah, that's a rude response. It's a very rude response. But here's the thing. Why? If I caught you in your corporate lawyer days, and you said, i'm leaving the practice of law and i said why perfectly legitimate question that's what everyone said and if you said i'm sure and if you said because i'm going to start a podcast what's a podcast anyone who loves you right would have said yeah this is a terrible idea that is exactly what happened terrible idea of course they did listen now everybody looks back and goes oh my god i always knew you're gonna be so oh yeah i would have bought stock in you if i could have that's what I hear.
17:18And I appreciate that. When I left the firm I was working for 24 years ago and said, I'm going out on my own. I have no clients. I have nothing. I just have the hubris of youth and a law degree. I had a lot of confidence at that time, an irrational level of confidence at that time. My skill set only just recently caught up with my level of confidence. And everybody who cared about me was like, this is not field of dreams, man. If you build it, they might not come. That is not a great idea. And now, of course, all of them are like, we always knew you were going to be so successful as a lawyer and you always had such a skill level.
17:50But look, the truth is, I think we need to ask the question, what is the problem to which marriage is a solution? Because I'm stunned that we don't ask that question. When someone says, I'm getting married, why is it weird to say why? This is a technology that fails the majority of the time. Why would you do that? And I think most people have never really even contemplated that question. Even married people have not contemplated that question. They just haven't, why did we get married? It's just a thing you do. It's a thing you do. It's assumed you're going to do it. But I work from the, and maybe it's my own pathology, but I work from the preposition that tradition is peer pressure exerted by dead people.
18:31It's really what tradition is. So when you just do something because that's a thing we do as a species, I'm very quick to say, right, but why? Like, why? Because there's lots of things we do that when you go, why? Oh, okay. That makes a lot of sense. That adds up. You know, we do it for a reason. If something is a tradition, I can work from the assumption that there must be a logic behind it. But if the proof, the undisputable proof out there is that this does not seem like a good idea, like marriage, why would you continue to work from the assumption? It's a great idea. You should definitely do it.
19:04And it's a default mode. And if you don't do it, you have intimacy issues. There's something wrong with you. Like if you say, I'm in such a happy relationship, but we are never going to get married, it instantly becomes, oh, what's going on at Jim? Yeah. Just got some issues here. Yikes. And the truth is, it might be just good sense. So don't waste money on that wedding. Spend it on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you're wondering how I managed to book all these authors, thinkers, creators every single week, it is because of my network, the circle of people that I know, like, and trust.
19:34I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself for free over at 6minutenetworking.com. This course is all about improving your relationship building skills and inspiring others to develop a relationship with you. It is not cringy. It is down to earth. There's not going to be any awkward strategies or cheesy tactics, just practical exercises that'll make you a better connector, a better friend. We refilmed the whole thing. It looks pretty darn good. It's also being translated into like a dozen or two different languages. And many of the guests on the show already subscribe and contribute to the course.
20:02So come on and join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find the course again for free at sixminutenetworking.com. Now, back to James Sexton. I got a buddy who got married because his wife is from another country, and it was a huge pain to have her stay here, get pregnant, have a kid, citizenship of both the European country that she's in, and he can't get insurance there. So I was like, that's a good reason. Great reason. That's a great reason. It's a pragmatic reason. It's a practical reason. If you say, look, I have terrible health insurance and my soon-to-be spouse, my romantic partner I've been with for a number of years has phenomenal low-cost health insurance that would cover my dental, optical, and everything, perfectly pragmatic, good reason.
20:44You know, religious, we come from a religious tradition, my spouse and I, or my soon-to-be spouse and I, that we believe religion, you know, that marriage is a covenant from God or we believe it's a sacrament or we believe that it's, okay, cool, good reason, good reason. I don't know that it's going to make it work any better, but it certainly is a good enough reason. But just asking the question, the fact that asking that question is considered rude in the face of the overwhelmingly bad statistics. Right. I just don't understand why that's a weird thing to say. No, it's not. Although you're in a unique position of credibility when it comes to this stuff.
21:19I think probably a lot of people don't really want to hear your opinion when they, until they're getting divorced. Yeah, I'm definitely the skunk at the picnic. Right, right. I, I, I, people are, are simultaneously fascinated by what I do. Sure. And terrified to let it anywhere near. Well, it's like a hit man. Exactly. It's like, Oh my God, my friend is so interesting. Do not invite that guy to the Christmas. Yeah. Yeah. People love the, what do you do? Oh my God, you must have some stories. And they're real into it. But I think they all want to believe that they're personally exempt from the things that I've seen.
21:53and that the people in my office are somehow different than them and that they're completely, like, the rules that I see don't apply to them. Sure. And I think that's, you know, there's something in us that wants that. I get it. Well, they think you're just real housewives all the time, reality TV show, plates thrown across the kitchen. I would assume the story, correct me if I'm wrong, is more like, yeah, they got married and it was great, and then over time they just stopped really being... Yeah, I mean, you know, there is a lot of the Real Housewives stuff in my office. I've actually represented some of the actual Real Housewives.
22:28But the majority of divorces don't need someone like me. That's one thing. So you don't need me if you're just two people, lower middle class, middle class, upper middle class, two kids, a house, and 401k. And you just got to split it up. You don't need me for that. I'm a chainsaw. I'm not a scalpel. You use me when there are stakes and when you need a weapon. You know, I'm a weapon. That's my job. And so the kinds of cases I handle tend to have a crazy component to them, or at least the potential for crazy. So you want me. Like, there's a saying that police officers carry guns so they don't have to use them.
23:06And so sometimes people hire me so they don't have to use me. Like, they hire me and I'm the threat of, oh yeah, those five magic words. Please call your first witness. Like, those are going to get said if you take the wrong turn here, so let's get this thing done. The better I get as a trial lawyer, the less often I have to try cases. It's like, the better you get as a fighter, the less often you have to fight, probably. Because people look at you and go, yeah, I'm not going to swing on that guy. So the best trial lawyers in this city, like, we all know each other, but we end up just negotiating with each other.
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23:37We don't have trying cases against each other that often because it's a doctrine of mutually assured destruction. We both have nukes. Sure. But the majority of marriages end with a whimper, not a bang. There are two people that just grow apart in some fashion. And I've said it before that people's relationships fail, whether married or not. We fall in love really fast. And it's instantaneous almost and chemical and pheromonal and all that stuff. But we fall out of love like we go bankrupt or like we gain weight very slowly and then all at once. It's this quick rush, you know, and look, I mean, you know, falling feels like flying for a little while, you know, until you hit the ground.
24:14But I get that like we fall in love super fast as a species. And then when we're falling in love or anyone around us is falling in love, we absolutely like, we just love being around it even. Like you listen to those same group of women, you know, that you see in the restaurant, like rolling their eyes, talking about their husband is just such an idiot, you know, and then one of the women in the group who's either divorced or not married yet, starts talking about a guy who she's seeing. What did he do? Oh, my God, that's so romantic. Oh, my God. And then where did he take you? Oh, my God, that's so amazing.
24:48As if that guy is not in five years going to be who she's talking about the same way they're talking about their current spouses and vice versa. The men, it's the same thing. It's like right now they're sitting there talking, rolling their eyes about their spouse. And the buddy who's singles, oh, my God, this woman's so great. She's perfect. She's amazing. This is a glitch in our programming it is i will tell you just personally we do not let our my group of friends does not let we don't allow if a guy's like hey my spouse is doing this thing if it's serious we'll talk about it but if it's just like oh she's so dumb this we're like hey man because that i feel like that's the beginning or symptom of something that is not healthy yeah i applaud you for that i've been very vocal about the fact that i think we need to stop trash talking our partners yeah 100 the world is beating the crap out of us enough your partner should be i'm not saying they shouldn't see your blind spots.
25:39I'm not saying they should call you out when you get it wrong. I think that's one of the best things about being in a relationship is having somebody who with love, like with your good intentions and heart, you know, like, you know, it's coming from a place of love and they're like, Hey man, you're not seeing this, but this is what this is. Like to me, that's the whole reason. I want friends like that. I want a romantic partner like that. I want all the people, I want coworkers like that. Like I want people who aren't afraid to tell me the truth. I don't want a bunch of yes men around me, but it's, there is something so toxic about creating an environment where the default mode is everybody talking trash about their partner.
26:16Because I mean, just the pain to me of like, this person is supposed to be your cheerleader, your main support. It's like the only person who's supposed to be on your team all the time, besides maybe your parents. And some people don't have. Yeah, I mean, I think anything comes out of your mouth. If you're in a relationship, you know, anything comes out of your mouth. Would it come out of your mouth if your partner were standing right there. Even interacting with the opposite sex or whoever your preference would be. Like, you know, if you're with someone romantically and you're talking to someone else who's a potential romantic partner and you're talking to them in a manner that you would not be speaking in that way if your partner were standing next to you, that's a problem as far as I'm concerned.
26:53I think that you should, and the truth is, is not just from a morality place. I'm not saying it from there. I'm saying in terms of the love you want, because if you behave one way around your spouse or partner and another way in their absence, then really, are you ever going to feel your spouse or partner's love? Because you're going to be like, oh, well, they love what they think I'm like, but I'm not actually like that. So then you created a situation where you never really will feel their love. Yeah, that's an interesting point. I think, especially, I think media is a little bit complicit in this, right?
27:24You have like the everybody loves Raymond where the guys are all idiots and it's funny but it should stay on tv only and then you have like the locker room talk with guys and it's just you have to draw a line so i'm not saying you can't be like wow that girl that you're dating right now is it's beautiful man good for you that's fine but when it's like oh our wives are all fat and ugly it's like yeah hey you know eventually you're gonna start believing that if you don't already yeah and and also i i think you're gonna because i do think sometimes people do it from a place of trying to like team building right yeah so So you don't want to be, if you're in a room full of people who are all talking about how their spouse sucks, you don't want to be the one voice that goes, oh, no, mine's great.
28:03Like it feels rude. It feels rude to say that. So you're like, okay, I got to find something about mine to say bad. But the truth is, like, I just think long term, that's super toxic. And I think it's one of the most antagonistic things to happy relationships. If you look at people, I talked about this with Lex Friedman when I was on his show. he was talking about, I think he was talking about Joe Rogan, actually, who he's good friends with. And he was talking about how Joe's been married, you know, for a really, really long time and how when he talks, like his wife looks at him like, oh, like this guy's so smart.
28:33He's so awesome, you know? And like, what a lovely thing to have. And by the way, like you would not ever hear Joe Rogan say a bad thing about his spouse ever. Like you can, you search the archives, you've heard him say some crazy stuff about a bunch of crazy stuff, but you'll never hear him trash talking his spouse. And that I think is really admirable. And it's probably why he has one of the more successful marriages out there for a long period of time, because this is not a person who's trash talking their spouse. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting how that becomes a default for, like you said, for so many guys.
29:03But again, I think it's easy to snap out of that too. You just decide that you're not going to do that anymore. And when you're friends, or when you're trying to lead the way on this, I mean, I just say like, you brought this up in a show, you say like, how did you guys meet? It changes the mood. And I will force my friends to tell me this story repeatedly. One buddy of mine was like, why do you keep asking me that? You've heard this before. And I'm like, hey, I'm trying to snap you out of this bullshit. Yeah, it pulls you out of it. You know, there was a scene in Godfather 2 that I always really liked where De Niro, you know, playing the young Don Corleone, is sitting in a theater with his, like, buddy, one of his consigliere friends, you know, this was before he was the Godfather.
29:39And he says, oh, you know, this girl, this girl who's in this show, I'm so in love with her. She's the most beautiful woman in the world. She's the most beautiful woman I've ever seen. and she comes on the stage and he says to De Niro's character, like, look, isn't she beautiful? Isn't she the most beautiful woman you've ever seen? And, you know, in classic De Niro, you know, Godfather, Don Corleone, he says, you know, essentially in Italian, but it's translated. He says, you know, for me, there's my wife, but yeah, that's great. And I thought like, that's so money. Like, that's so like, you know, for me, there's my wife, but you know what?
30:06Like, that's great. That's great. And I have a couple of buddies that like, that's how they talk about their wife is that they're like, you know, listen, I, I found my girl, but that's great for you. Like, are you, and you can say it and I'm like, oh man, check this girl out. Isn't she stunning? And they're like, beautiful girl. I mean, listen, for me, there's my wife. That's great. You know? And I think there's something so, I mean, again, this is my conception of masculinity. Like, I think there's something very masculine and cool about a guy who's like, yeah, I picked a good one. Yeah. I picked a good one and I'm happy.
30:34It's also, like you said, a lot of this is just peer pressure nonsense or like machismo crap you actually speaking of looks you said something or i read something you said essentially i'm paraphrasing here being hot is one of the most lucrative things you can do for sure i'd love to hear you talk about this because most people would never actually well no one didn't say that loud but everybody knows it's true right i mean it's like these people won the genetic lottery like being good looking being attractive is incredibly valuable look you've either got to be super talented rich or good looking yeah two out of Which one of those is the easiest thing to be, right?
31:06There are people that are just born like that, like just born six foot and gorgeous, like, and that's it. And if you get to pick which of those things you want to be, right, you know, whether you want to be, you know, born rich, that's certainly nice. But to get rich, most people have to work at it. You know, brilliant to be brilliant. Like, look, some people are born with a high IQ, but there's still a lot of work that has to go along with becoming educated in some fashion. Being good looking. Yeah, okay. You got to take care of yourself. Maybe you have to eat the right things. Once you pass a certain age, you have to work out once you pass a certain age.
31:37I mean, I think for your twenties, you can kind of get away with any number of things, you know? Sure. But I think the truth is, yeah, like I do a lot of divorces for people in finance. I'm a divorce lawyer in Manhattan. So we are the hub of commerce. Many of my wealthiest clients worth hundreds of millions and billions of dollars are in finance. They're partners at huge firms like Goldman Sachs and any of the other investment capital type of firms. And they typically marry yoga teachers, models, artists, creatives, people who do not really, they're not lucrative earners, but they just happen to be extremely attractive.
32:17And many of my clients - What a coincidence. In finance, they are not the most attractive. They are not people who, if you went in a room and said, this woman and this man, you would go, they're not on the same level in terms of their looks. So I don't think it's profane or inappropriate or insulting to anybody to say that there is an aspect of love that is an economy. You know, it's love is a feeling. Love is a verb, like to act with love. But love is an economy. And I think we should be a little more honest about that in the world. As a divorce lawyer, I don't have the luxury of being able to pretend that it's not.
32:57I understand why we want to pretend that no, it's the heart and that's all that it is and there's nothing else to it. There's an economy to it, gang. Like we all know that. Nobody's really being honest about this, right? Like if you ask - Well, everyone's being honest. A lot of people are being honest about it. Well, they're acting honestly. No one is saying it out loud. No one saying it out loud. I'm saying the quiet part out loud. Right, the guy would probably never, well, it depends on the guy, but he's probably going to go, you know, we just clicked. It was great. He's not going to go, yeah, I'm a fat schlubby dude.
33:24who smells bad, but I'm loaded. Which is shocking to me. Because you would think, I mean, some of these guys are the most intelligent people. Like, they're the smartest person in the room. And they understand, like, some of them are quant people, that they understand, like, they understand mathematics and numbers in a way that I never will. They're not risk adverse. If anything, they lean into risk. So they're constantly doing the calculus in their head of, like, risk versus reward. So these are smart, tenacious, hardworking, forward-thinking people who are disciplined. When it comes to love, they're the total opposite.
33:57They're just idiots. And they really legit don't see what's plainly in front of them. No, she is not. It's not just that you click. It's not that she's an old soul. So the fact that she's 25, 30 years younger than you doesn't mean anything because she's an old soul or you're young at heart. It's just not totally. And again, I just think there's something silly about that. Yeah, they would just be so much nicer and more honest to say, you know what? I bring a lot to the table in terms of resources and stability and security. She brings a lot to the table in terms of energy and enthusiasm and beauty.
34:30And she brings to my life a type of beauty that inspires something in me and makes me feel so alive. And I mean, as a heterosexual man, like when I walk past a beautiful woman and smell the perfume of her in the air, like it's lovely. Like it's a lovely feeling. I mean, even if you never act on that, even if you never have any interaction with that woman again, just being in the presence of beauty is a lovely feeling, you know? And I'm sure that I had a conversation with a bisexual friend of mine and I said, so do you just experience that all day with like every gender? And he was like, yeah. And I was like, my God, like how do you get anything done?
35:06Yeah. You know, I was like, you walk down the street and like, he just raises the bar. Yeah. You're just surrounded by gorgeous people, you know, of both genders. Like what a lovely gift to be able to experience that. But the truth is that I just think there's nothing wrong with saying that, with saying that, yes, part of what I really like about this person is their beauty, their youth. And part of what this person likes about me is my stability and financial security and the fact that I want to use my resources to make their life more comfortable and beautiful. I've had plenty of cases, very often prenups, so they're still married, where he brings a lot of finance to the table.
35:45She's a creative person who, unfortunately, we don't reward many of the arts and the creative pursuits of the world out there. A person who does Reiki and is helping a bunch of people or who works as a therapist or a teacher isn't making that much money compared to someone in finance who's really creating nothing. They're just moving numbers around columns. They're making billions doing it. What's wrong with saying, you know, I want her to be able to do this beautiful, wonderful thing for the world or for the people who she serves and to also be able to enjoy abundance and beauty and travel and all the wonderful things that come with resources.
36:21So what's wrong with that? I don't think there's anything wrong with that as long as it's honest, right? As long as everyone is being candid with each other about what that exchange is made up of. Yeah. I think because it's not romantic or it's considered like distasteful to say - But why isn't it romantic? Yeah, no, I agree with you. I don't think that robs the romance. I 100 % agree with you. Like, I don't have to, I've often quoted the Joseph Brodsky poem that I like very much called A Song, where there's a line where he says, I wish I knew no astronomy when stars appear. Because there's something about knowing astronomy that makes the stars less beautiful, but I don't know if that's true.
36:52I think, if anything, like, one of my best friends is an art history professor, and I like to go to museums here in New York. It's one of the reasons I live in New York. and whenever I go to an art museum with him because he knows like the life history of every artist way more interesting that way oh my god like I love Francis Bacon but then when he was like yeah he was like a closeted homosexual who was raised in this you know Roman Catholic society Irish Catholic society and then you see like the pain in his art and like the the kind of bondage that's a big theme in his art it makes so much more sense and it's so much more it doesn't rob bit of its beauty of anything.
37:28It makes it more beautiful because you understand it better. You can get your hands around it. Honestly, I don't, I'm not an art guy at all, but if I go on a really good tour where somebody's like, what does this look like to you? And I'm like, oh, it's like a photograph, but it's a painting. She goes, exactly. He painted something in motion. And the way he did that was to make it look like a photograph. And I'm like, this is a million times. I would have walked right past that and been like, where's Van Gogh? Take a picture, look at it, admire it, leave. It was just, it's totally different. And isn't there something beautiful about, like the truth.
37:56You know, as someone who's involved in full contact storytelling, I always tell my clients like the truth just sounds different. It just feels different. Like you can just feel the truth sometimes. And I really think there's something very beautiful about truth. And I think in relationships, like there's a real beauty to be found in being radically candid with each other about what you're really feeling, what you're really afraid of, of what really, for good or for bad, like is hitting you the wrong way. And that's why in my book, I talk a lot about, I call it hitting send now, but essentially like being radically candid with your partner about when little things rub you the wrong way, in a non-attacking way, so it's not met with defensiveness.
38:43And in a non-confrontational way, I recommend things like an email. So a person, you can parse it carefully and then they can digest it in their own time. talking about these little seeds of hurt before they grow into these like bushes of resentment you know and i think it's a whole lot easier to control that when it's just that little seed my wife is good at this she's and she's helped me get better at this she'll say something like hey you know the other day when this happened that kind of just made me feel like you weren't on my team in that conversation i'm like oh i did that and i you're right i kind of should have seen that coming maybe next time i won't do it that way or what and it's so there's so much value in that discussion value man and there's so much value and also learning then how the other person thinks because i'm sure in that response like your first response is okay well first of all i'm sorry because i know i didn't mean to hurt you yeah i know that i know that i'm sure like i'm sure i avoided that i'm sure i did and so i apologize for that because i know i didn't mean to right but here's what i was thinking like here's why i said that because it wasn't well good because i wanted to hurt you.
39:46It was, no, I said that because I understood it this way, or I didn't realize that bothered you. And that's why, like, and I think when you understand how this person's thinking better, like I have found, I said it earlier, and I'll say it a thousand times, like we break in relationship and we heal in relationship. And I think when you've had difficult relationships or you've had quote unquote unsuccessful relationships that result in not a happily ever after, but instead ending and then, you know, moving in your own directions, at starting new relationships. You can look at each of those as like, okay, now I know a bunch of things about what doesn't work for me, both in terms of what I could do different, or what I want different in a partner, or what I won't do again in terms of how I handled something.
40:32And I'd like to think we just get better and better at this if we approach it the right way, mindfully. Did your ex take all the furniture? Buy something new from the amazing sponsors that support this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, the discount codes, the ways to support the show are searchable and clickable over at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. If you can't remember the name of a sponsor, you can't find the code, email me jordan at jordanharbinger.com.
41:00I am happy to surface that code for you. Yes, it is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, back to James Sexton. I will say, every time I've had a long-term relationship in my life, I'll go, all right, what worked in this one? This isn't even necessarily a conscious process. This is just like, I really like these five things about her. These other things were the deal breaker. Like she was, you know, super XYZ. Like I dated a girl who was really great, but she was very religious. And she was like, I think gay people are all going to hell. And I was like, I can't teach my kids that.
41:33It's a bridge too far. I can't do it. and we talked about this a lot and she's just like i don't even dislike them i just think that they're all going to burn in hell and i'm like that's right right i'm not raising kids in this environment and so i was like i want these eight things that were really great if possible but i can't deal with these two things that were not great but i found that friends of mine who are divorced and like a mess they tend to make the same mistakes over and over again or they're stuck in this weird pattern where i go so you broke up with her because of this your new girlfriend has all of those same downsides, but she's different in other ways?
42:08I'm so confused right now. Well, this is the reality of like people not being in therapy as far as I'm concerned. Because I really do think that like one of the things I'm so grateful to have seen happen in my lifetime is the normalization of mental health services. Well, hell yeah. People go into therapists because I think one of the best things you can do for yourself is like, okay, I find this attractive. Okay, why? Like, why? Why is that attractive to you? Is there a wound that you had that that helps heal? Or is there a wound that you had that that repeats for you and therefore justifies that original wound?
42:40Like, so are you just hurting yourself? Like, oh, this is a familiar kind of pain, so I'm just gonna keep signing up for it. Yes, sir. And for men, I don't know if this is true for women because I've never been a woman, but I know for myself as a man and many of my male friends is like who my penis is interested in and who I should be interested in, like who's good for me are very different. And I don't know if that's true for women. Like, I don't know if the clitoris is like, you know, it has its own mind of like, oh, I like that, but that's really bad for my prefrontal cortex. Like that's really bad for the rest of my biology.
43:15And so if that's the case, like, I'm not saying don't indulge that. Like, listen, cupcakes are bad for you, but you can have a cupcake once in a while. It's okay. You know, just know, like, this is not my new eating plan. And this is not like what I'm going to eat every day. If this becomes a staple of your diet, you're going to be unhappy. So, you know, I don't mind if somebody says, listen, I find this very attractive. I don't know why. Like desire, you know, when I was teaching my own children who are now adults, when I was teaching them, because I had a lot of gay and lesbian friends at the time, they were little, and I live in Chelsea, so I'm primarily gay area.
43:49And I was always surrounded by, you know, gay men. And so explaining to my sons, like, some boys like boys and some girls like girls and some boys like girls. You know how I like your mom. She has pretty blonde hair. And I think mom is super pretty because she has pretty blonde hair. Well, some people like, you know, women with dark hair and some men like men with dark hair, like people like different things. But what's nice is someday you're going to figure out what you like and hopefully you're going to like something and someone's going to like the same thing that you like and the two of you are going to hug and kiss each other.
44:17And that's one of the nicest things in the whole wide world. That was like basically my 101 explanation. Both of my sons ended up quite well adjusted and in happy relationships. So the truth of all of this is, you know, we can't explain certain aspects of our desire. So why not just acknowledge like, yeah, I really like that. It's not good for me. It doesn't work for me. It leads me down dark roads. I've learned that. But I still really like it. So I might have to just look at it from afar and go, yeah, like, listen, I used to smoke cigarettes many, many years ago. I quit smoking 20 plus years ago.
44:51but I still look at someone smoking a cigarette I can't watch mad men and not go oh god that looks so good you know like the whiskey yeah you tell me I'm dying next week I'm gonna start smoking again for sure you know like and I'm sure the minute I took one puff I would be like oh my god how did I ever do this guarantee it but I have to tell you like in my mind like I know it's really bad for me but it's something that was alluring to me and and looks compelling to me maybe the reality of it wouldn't be as good as what it is in my mind but i've learned enough to know i'm not going to tempt fate because i think if i went and bought a pack of cigarettes and started smoking them within a week i'd be smoking two packs a day so i'm not going you got to treat it like drinking well or drinking it sure depending on how you drink i guess but like for me yeah not at all i mean for me it's rarely i'll have like an old-fashioned sure it's very occasional and you get like you said guys who only date like really bad for them people sure there's tons of women who date the wrong man over and over.
45:49In my own circle, I guess. Sure, sure. And you just go, when are you going to learn? And it's like, you don't have whiskey for breakfast, generally. But this is a biological blind spot. It is. It's a blind spot. It really is. And I think it might be part of the programming. Like, it might be part of our biological programming is that there are some things that I think are just hardwired into human beings. Like, if you talk to any woman who's given birth, they will tell you that right after they gave birth, the thought of ever having a kid again, they were like, oh my God, I'll never do this again.
46:18It was so physically painful. It was so awful. It was so horrific. And like six months, a year later, their brain goes, oh, it wasn't that bad. What was that? Yeah, they forgot. And there's something in us that puts that aside and goes, nope, memory is kind for that reason. So I think it's the same thing with relationships. There's some voice inside of us that I think comes from some deep part of our biology, our wiring, that says, you know, oh no, it's going to be different this time. Like this time it's love. This time it's real. Even if you're self-aware, man, I gotta be careful. I don't make this person too obvious.
46:55I have a friend that I knew when I was younger that I still know. Is it a hedge fund guy? Like smart guy. Very smart. He only dated the most horrible meanest women that he could find. His parents were both fine. I met them. They're great. His sister was a sweet gal. If he found somebody who was just kind of horrific most of the time that's what he liked and he he goes yeah i just really love this and i'm like you gotta be so careful married a totally perfectly nice woman thank god uh but it was it was close that may have been that that's a close call that like you know that he found something exciting about the conflict and the chaos yeah and that's okay like i said it's listen if you're a thrill seeker you might look for that but if you had thank god he had the good sense to say long term that's not what i'm going for yeah like i'm gonna go for something long term and committed that's going to be a lot calmer than that i mean he would he literally there were girls in the minority there were girls where we go i think she's like a psychopath yeah because she wanted to be i remember this one wanted to be a brain surgeon and we were like wow she's so smart and then we found out that one of the things she liked was cutting people open and then writing her initials on people's skull when she was cutting their skull open and i go why and she's like just so i'm there and they can never get rid of me and i was like well that's creepy as hell that is creepy that's super creepy and yet really yeah it's very creepy she sounds very interesting yeah well you know i mean like she sounds very interesting like i like you gave me a choice between someone who on the weekends wants to make like tuna noodle casserole yeah and go to like the local like parade for like whatever you know arbor day or someone who does shit like that yeah sign me up well like i i'm gonna i'm i don't know that i'm gonna want to marry right right either of those people raise children with them i'm not doing that with either but i have to tell you if you ask me which of those two you want to talk to the brain carving chick i want to talk to her that is interesting to me i'll introduce you she's probably divorced by now well who knows you might already know you might yeah you might already know her maintaining a healthy marriage is like maintaining a healthy weight and i think i don't know if you said this but don't wait until your teeth are falling out to go to the dentist yes that's sort of to our earlier point, right?
49:04Yeah. I said that. I definitely said that because my sister's a dentist and I always use her as the example. My sister always says to me that by the time you have a toothache, it's too late. Like there's a bunch of things I could have done for you before you got a toothache. But now that you got a toothache, it's too late. So that's the original title of my first book was if you're in my office, it's already too late. And so I genuinely believe that by the time divorce is anything other than a fleeting thought you have when your spouse does something really boneheaded, it's pretty far along. Like you're starting to really have a toothache at that point.
49:36So I genuinely believe in preventative maintenance. I think that it's much easier as the metaphor you said, it's much easier to maintain a healthy weight than it is to gain a ton of weight and then try to lose all that weight. And it's also worse for you to do it that way. Like it's better to just try to create a steady state and understand that every now and then you're going to put on a couple pounds or lose a couple pounds unexpectedly, more often put on a couple pounds unexpectedly. But it's the same kind of thing. You're occasionally going to have turbulence with your partner. You can't, it's hard to relate to yourself, much less to another person in such an intimate world and an antagonistic world.
50:10Like, you know, that's why I always say to people, like, why do we learn how to fight with our partner while we're in a fight with our partner? That seems really stupid to me. Like, why not when you're getting married or starting a relationship and you have this abundance of goodwill together where you just really like each other more than anything in the whole wide world? Like when you're first dating, I love talking to people who are just drunk on the like how into each other they are like that that stage is so fun to even be around like it's why we watch rom-coms and stuff like it's so fun to watch people who are just like enamored with this other and everything they do is awesome and like even they're like things they do that are kind of annoying they're like oh and this is like this little piccadillo of their personality like and you know you know that five years later it's gonna be like, why are you breathing like that?
50:53But at that first date or that fifth date, it's like, oh, and he breathes so weird. It's so cute. Her nose whistles when she sleeps. Like that whistling is going to drive you nuts in five years. But again, what is it about? It's about how you're approaching this thing. And like, you got Christmas in your eyes all the time with this person. So to me, figuring out a way to sustain that high or like how to continue to stand in the presence of that is really the key. You know, the book I'm working on now is about endings. And it's about how when we put ourself in the mind of the ending, we really savor everything that leads to it much better.
51:35So like when we are in the presence of death, we're very much alive. When we're in the presence of illness, we're grateful for our good health and mindful of our good health. when we see someone who's lost their job, we're so grateful for the job we have. There's so much we can, like every new beginning came from some other beginning's end. And there's something really beautiful about what I do for a living in that I see all of these endings. And they all came from people that were facing in the same direction at one point. Like at some point they were like, let's do this. There's 8 billion people in the world and let's pick each other and let's hold hands and let's try to navigate it together and try to help each other go through it.
52:17And, you know, like, it's so beautiful. It's such a worthwhile sentiment. Maybe it's a foolish sentiment. I don't know, but it's so human. And the fact that so many of them, 50 % or more, lose the plot. And I just think there's something beautiful about that, that we keep trying. We keep trying to not lose the plot and we keep stepping on the same landmines over and over and over again. And so I think preventative maintenance is probably the key because you all started in the same spot, which is madly in love with each other. So why not have conversations about, hey, how are we going to keep this on track?
52:54When we disagree, when we fight, what should that look like? What do you need? Do you need a minute? Or are you the like, okay, we got to deal with this right now. We can't go to bed angry type because if one of us is that and one of us is the other type, we got to figure out how to balance that the right way. You know, like, have some some of those conversations when there's still so much goodwill between the two of you. If you're looking for another episode of the Jordan Harbinger show to sink your teeth into, here's a trailer for another episode that I think you might enjoy. I was walking from one hotel to another quite late at night.
53:26I was at a magic convention in Wales. I was wearing a three-piece velvet suit. Because why not? So why not? So this guy is, you know, he's really drunk and he's clearly looking for a fight. And he's with his girlfriend and all his adrenaline is kind of, you know, up here. And he starts shouting at me and says something like, what are you looking at? Or what's your problem or something? In that situation, you can't respond with, oh, I'm not looking at anything because then you're on the back foot and they've got power. Or, yeah, I'm looking at you. What's your problem? Because either way, you're going to get hit.
53:58But you can just not play that game right from the outset. So I said, the wall outside my house isn't four foot high. So his reaction to that is a bit of a pause. He's like, what? And I said, oh, the wall outside my house isn't four foot high. When I lived in Spain, the walls there were quite high, but here they're tiny, I mean, they're nothing. So he then, he just went, oh, fuck, and started crying. His girlfriend walked off, and he sat down by the side of the road. I sat down next to him and started asking about what had gone wrong that night. I think his girlfriend had bottled somebody. There'd been some fight.
54:33And weirdly, then I'm giving him advice. I was talking to a friend of mine about this thing. And he's an artist and he used to walk home from his studio late at night through a rough bit of London. And there were always these kind of like gangs on one side of the road. So he'd always cross over away from them. Of course, they'd always see that. And it was always this horrible, uncomfortable, intimidating thing. So we spoke about it. And then the next night, he crossed over the road to them. and said, good evening, as he walked past them. And of course, they left him alone because he just seemed like a strange...
55:02Yeah, I don't know. He's crazy. He's just weird. Yeah. Who wants to see a magic trick? For an inside look at the levers in our own brain alongside Darren Brown, one of the world's most legendary illusionists and mentalists, check out episode 150 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. That's the end of part one. Part two coming up in just a little bit here. All Things James Sexton will be in the show notes It's at jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discount codes, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Also, our newsletter, We Bit Wiser, something specific, something practical every week on Wednesday that you can read in under two minutes that'll have an immediate impact on your decisions, your psychology, your relationships.
55:46I invite you to come check it out if you haven't signed up yet. It's a great companion to the show. jordanharbinger.com slash news is where you can find it. Don't forget about 6-Minute Networking as well. over at sixminutenetworking.com. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting.
56:15The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. So if you know somebody who maybe could use a little advice in this area, might be thinking about getting married, might be thinking about getting divorced, Definitely share this episode with them. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by the Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a great new podcast can feel like searching for a needle in a haystack. Let me save you some hassle. Check out Something You Should Know with my friend Mike Carruthers.
56:41Every episode is packed with fascinating insights that you can actually use. Mike interviews top experts on topics that shape your life, like how to optimize your brain chemistry, the best and worst ways to apologize, probably could have used that recently, why couples hate to talk about money, No matter the topic, Mike asks the questions you'd want to ask, getting straight to the good stuff. And the conversations are always engaging, always insightful, guaranteed to leave you a little smarter than before. They've got thousands of five-star reviews. But do you even need that? I'm recommending it.
57:07You don't need other people's opinion, right, at this point, I would hope. Anyway, give it a listen. Just search for Something You Should Know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening to Something You Should Know.
From the publisher
Renowned divorce lawyer James Sexton reveals the secrets to maintaining a healthy marriage and avoiding his office altogether! [Pt. 1/2]
What We Discuss with James Sexton:- Marriage is statistically risky, with a 56% failure rate for first marriages.
- There's often an economic aspect to relationships that people don't openly discuss.
- People tend to fall in love quickly but fall out of love slowly.
- Constantly criticizing or trash-talking your partner, even in jest with friends, can be toxic to a relationship.
- Preventative maintenance is key to a healthy relationship. Just as you wouldn't wait until your teeth are falling out to go to the dentist, don't wait for major issues to arise in your relationship.
- And much more — be sure to tune in to part two of this conversation later this week!
Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1035
This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/dealsSign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!
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