1037: Allure of Abuser Only Serves to Confuse Her | Feedback Friday

22:26One day, we don't know when, one day you're gonna have to officially mourn him. But in the meantime, there's definitely some grief for you to experience around the father you had, the father you wish you had, the father you never had. And the idea of yourself as a child who could somehow make her parent come back to life. Jordan, I think she has this fantasy, which is a very understandable fantasy, of being able to somehow galvanize her father into waking up, literally and figuratively. Yeah. But she's in the process of putting that idea to bed. I am so sorry for that pun. I did not intend that.

23:00It just came out of my mouth. Yeah, but it's perfect, isn't it? It is, weirdly. Nailed it. That line in her letter where she said, he went to bed when I was 10 and hasn't been around since. That was devastating. Yes, devastating is a great word. That was horrible. I have this image of this 10-year-old girl whose father is just totally checked out and inaccessible and scary and probably a little embarrassing. Of course that child would develop the wish to, you know, wake daddy up, like, be my daddy, be a human being, be here with us in the land of the living. It sounds to me like she's carried that wish into adulthood.

23:30And the closer her dad gets to his physical death, the more she's starting to realize, this probably isn't going to happen. Exactly. I think that's probably one of the most painful things she's starting to mourn now. And she's going to go through a whole process around that idea that is extremely painful, but it is so important. That said, while I think it's important to let go of fantasies and mourn these ideas, I don't think the answer is to just close the door on your father. You can still call him, write him, visit him. You can express your love, your good wishes, your hope. You can tell him, hey, dad, if you ever want to call me and talk, if you ever need some help in making changes, I'm here for you.

24:04You don't need to abandon him or deny your love in order to grieve. In fact, I would say it's the opposite. It's only by destroying these fantasies that we can truly be in a real authentic relationship with somebody, especially a parent. Exactly. Now, how you actually move on from all this, that's a little more complicated. Grief is complex. It's personal. It's cyclical. you might be in an extended grief process about your dad in some form for the rest of your life, especially a parent as complicated and formative as this. But my general thought here is, this is less about moving on and more about, and I hate that I'm about to say this, but making space, which means, yes, talking about your father with your partner, with a therapist, in a journal, all of that, and really allowing yourself to be in touch with everything that your father's slow death is bringing up for you, your sadness and your concern, your anger and and your compassion, your grief, and your gratitude.

24:58The more you can listen to yourself, the more you'll know how to treat your father in this last chapter of his life. So for example, if you really allow yourself to feel your anger about things your father said to you over the years, the way he influenced your self esteem, you might feel more secure in going, oh okay, I'm not gonna be there every single day for weeks at a time trying to get my dad to go for a freaking walk, and I'm okay with that. But if you allow yourself to locate your sadness and compassion for a flawed and wounded man, you might feel moved to take a few days off every so often to go be with them, and that time will probably be a lot more meaningful.

25:27My hope for you is that you get to a point where you can feel all of these things at once. That's the name of the game. So your personal process and these practical questions about how to best care for your dad, they're all kind of connected. And by doing one, I think you'll be doing the other. Well said, Jordan. I completely agree. You know, she's writing in about her dad and how to be there for him, but I gotta say, I am most struck by the impact that her father has had on her, because the other thing that jumped out at me was when she said that her difficult experiences with her dad have made it nearly impossible for her to even want to try to build friendships.

25:59Yeah, that's quite a thing to say. That Appalachian trail comment, her father in that moment could not validate her excitement. He couldn't hold her joy alongside his own fear. I also have a strong feeling that his daughter's zest for life was probably a bit dangerous for him. I mean, here's a guy who sleeps 18 hours a day, who basically pieced out a life long before he got sick. And his daughter comes to him and she's like, I want to go full Cheryl Strayed and have this beautiful, life-affirming experience out in nature. I can imagine how that might have felt threatening to him if his daughter, who, let's remember, also shares his depression and his anxiety.

26:35If she can go out and have a big, meaningful experience in the world, then what excuse does he have? But if that was threatening to him, it's probably because it brought up a lot of envy and a lot of shame for him. He didn't have the tools to go, man, my daughter's dreams are making me anxious. They're making me envious. You know, I'm kind of embarrassed. I need to work through those things on my own. And in the meantime, I'm going to ask my daughter some questions about, you know, how she plans to stay safe. And I'm going to try to be excited for her. But instead he told her to pick out a casket, right?

27:04He killed her dream. But what he was actually trying to kill, I think, was his own feelings. And isn't the casket a perfect metaphor yet again for the bedroom that he went to sleep in all those years ago. Yeah. The casket for the life he never lived, which he was then confronting in his own daughter. Oh, OK. Who's the English minor now, Jordan? I like that. It's occasionally a broken clock is right twice a day, as they say. That's not actually a relevant metaphor. There's something about blindly swinging at a pitch and hitting a home run once in every 1000 tries. We're getting further and further away from the English department.

27:39See, I picked the right career after all. This is a pure serendipity. Gabe, when you put it like that, and when I put it in those magical flowery words, I'm finding it hard to be angry at this guy. I mean, look, I still am. I think this guy was a very flawed parent, and that's putting it nicely, but you're right. You don't crap on your child's amazing dream because you're happy and healthy. You crap on their dream because you're bitter and you're scared, and it's tragic. So I think your job now is to make peace with the father that you actually have, and yes, be there for him as he dies, but more importantly, to work through the legacy of this father and to start to heal those wounds.

28:16And the beautiful news is you're holding a steady job. You have a partner, you have children, and I'm sure you're treating them very differently from how your father treated you. I also want to say, hey, one day, if you ever want to hike the Appalachian Trail or pursue any other goal that's calling to you, you can still do it. It's never too late. That was like an 83-year-old guy that hiked the Appalachian Trail. You can still do it. And when you do, I think you're going to rewrite this one big wound from your childhood. And these experiences are going to be even more meaningful because you'll have located the father you deserved inside of yourself.

28:47And I know that sounds corny, but I hope you get to do that, my friend. Stay strong, stay present. We're sending you and your dad a big hug. And I hope you find some acceptance and peace as he goes through this transition. It really is kind of a Cheryl Stradd thing, right? Like, I need to hike the Appalachian Trail because it's a dream my father that I had a bad relationship with quashed. It's like she walks out and it's like a cleansing. right of in a healing trail it really is like a shell street making me want to hike the Appalachian trail damn yeah she should read that book if she hasn't already I bet she'd love it you can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com keep your emails concise please and try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a lot easier if you're struggling to stay connected to one parent while you separate from another your friend's husband secretly subscribed to your only fans or you're debating whether to tell a friend that her new crush once assaulted someone close to you whatever's got you staying up at night lately hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com we're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

29:40Oh, and by the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter, We Bit Wiser. It's basically a bite-sized gem from a past episode from me to you delivered right to your inbox once a week. If you want to keep up with the wisdom from our thousand plus episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out. You can sign up at jordanharbinger.com slash news. Okay, next up. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. My husband and I have been married for seven years and together for nine. We have a comfortable life and a lot to be grateful for. On our first date, we talked briefly about politics.

30:13He stated that he's conservative but mostly just cares about the government staying out of his business. And I let him know that I've mostly voted Democrat and that I'm socially liberal. I'm pro-choice and pro-gay marriage. I practice in healthcare, a responsibility that I don't take lightly, and I love my job. His family is also very conservative Christian. We don't go to church, and that's been a sticking point for them. We also don't have children by choice, and my husband approaches this as he does everything else. Not his problem if people have an issue with it. In the summer of 2016, he had some fringe ideas about Hillary Clinton, which I generally ignored, love is blind, and we got engaged in October 2016.

30:55In November, I watched in horror as Donald Trump was elected, which I didn't think was possible. My husband is a calm, level-headed person. He doesn't want to engage in angry conversation while I have trouble controlling my emotions when talking about things like abortion or gender-affirming care. We're now in the avoidance stage, which has trickled into our intimacy. When I bring these things up, he says that he doesn't perceive any issues with our voting differences or with our lack of intimacy. Basically, everything is fine, you worry too much, I love you. I've been in therapy and on medication for anxiety and OCD since 2021, and it's made such a positive impact on my life.

31:34My therapist has encouraged me to talk more with my husband about anything, not just hot button issues, and I'm doing my best. But I'm worried that this mental block I have is going to bubble up and result in an even bigger explosion, especially with another volatile election quickly approaching. I love this man. Do I need to just let this go and accept that we have different beliefs on some things? Am I obsessing unnecessarily? Or is this going to fester and result in something worse down the line? Signed, looking for a resurrection ahead of this upcoming election. What a fascinating dynamic this is.

32:08I got to say, I really appreciate how open you're being with us, how much you want to work on this, because I agree this is a real challenge. Also, Gabriel, she's so self-aware. Like, I lose emotional control when I'm talking about certain topics, and I can just see, like the conservatives in the audience being like typical liberal, just feelings over everything, can't keep calm and while talking about it. And I'm just sort of like snickering about that because she's aware of it. It's kind of a funny dynamic between them. But look, it's interesting. I actually don't think that your challenge is politics per se.

32:37This is not primarily about Hillary or maybe as your husband calls her, Hillary or Trump or reproductive rights or trans rights. And yeah, those are real divides between you. And I don't I don't mean to minimize that. But the fact that your husband's brand of conservatism isn't tied to any one religious position, that it's mostly, you know, keep the government out of my life. I imagine that that would give you guys a lot more room to come together on certain things, or at least to agree that people should largely have the freedom to do what they want. The real issue, as you already know, is how you two communicate with each other and how you relate.

33:08And I think you're right. There's a lot of avoidance going on here, mostly on your husband's side of the equation. And that to me is the real obstacle to intimacy and honesty and connection. For sure. And I find it super interesting that your husband doesn't want to engage in angry conversation or that he doesn't see any issues with your voting differences or with your lack of intimacy, which, by the way, not sure if you meant emotional intimacy or you were suggesting that all of this is now impacting your sex life somehow. But I kind of get the sense that it's both. What was it she said, Gabe, that when she brings this up, he's basically like, oh, everything's fine.

33:40Yeah, everything's fine. You worry too much. I love you. I mean, OK, I don't know about you, But I find that to be a pretty dismissive tack to take. I do too. So she's going, hey, these differences between us bother me. Our lack of a sex life bothers me. I wish we would talk more. And he's like, kind of going, oh, you're making this up. Everything's fine. I love you. Bye. It just sort of sounds like gaslighting. I don't know. Maybe I'm not being charitable enough with the guy. No, I find that pretty invalidating, actually. Super invalidating, man. Because look, even if he's right, even if, let's say, her anxiety were fueling these concerns, which, just to be clear, I do not think that this is all her anxiety talking.

34:14I think these are very real and valid concerns. But even if she were inventing problems where there weren't any, to respond to your partner by saying, eh, that's not a thing, you're being ridiculous, I love you, okay, that's sweet, and maybe it's somewhat well-intentioned, but that's not really a helpful or productive way to respond to your spouse. A more helpful way to respond would be, hey, I hear you, that you have some concerns, I'm not sure that I'm as concerned as you, but tell me what's on your mind, let's talk about it. And then they can talk about it. But he's not really making that possible right now.

34:46He's kind of like, everything's fine. My avoidance is intact. Correct. All of these details are giving me the sense that these conflicts are very distressing to him. Right. But why? I don't know. But we have a few clues in the letter. The first is this thing she said about how her husband handles the not having children thing with his family. So his stance is not my problem if people have an issue with it. Yeah. Which on one hand, you know, kind of admirable. I mean, he sounds pretty secure, kind of boundaried. It's up to them if they want to have children. and I kind of appreciate that he's going, look, if my parents don't like that, that's their business.

35:18On the other hand, a little avoidant, a little, like, has he not told his family, look, this is our choice, you might not like it, but we're happy. I respectfully ask you to respect our choice and not make us feel bad about it. Or at least shared with his parents their reasons for not having children. The other clue is that her husband is calm and level-headed, he doesn't want to engage in angry conversation, which, again, there are two sides to that quality. I can appreciate a dude who's chill and rational and who's not looking for a fight, especially when it comes to something like politics.

35:46But then is he also not willing to have those fights when they're necessary? Exactly. And I have to imagine that that's really about his own feelings. You know, maybe he finds it intolerable to bear the tension of having a difference with somebody. Maybe the sex thing specifically brings up a lot of shame and it's just really hard for him to talk about, let alone acknowledge. Look, maybe he's afraid of what would happen to the remaining connection that they do have if they leaned into these conflicts and really had it out. Although the irony is that they would probably only grow closer by really talking, even if it turns out that they have totally incompatible political beliefs.

36:20Or maybe this has less to do with politics and more to do with the general tone of their conversations. I have this feeling that her husband struggles to be on the receiving end of somebody else's intensity, whether it's his wife talking about the Supreme Court or whether it's his family going like, why aren't you guys having any kids? Underneath this very stoic exterior of his, there might be just as much volatility and passion as our friend here has. The only difference is he doesn't want to be in touch with it. Right. Because again, too distressing, too chaotic. And therefore maybe kind of icky to him, which I can almost guarantee goes back to, once again, his childhood, the home he grew up in, how his family handled conflicts, how they handled big feelings.

37:00And also maybe how this conservative Christian upbringing, even if he's distanced himself from it, how that might have made sex a difficult topic to talk about. Good point. I'm connecting a couple dots here. I don't know for sure, but I have a feeling that might be part of it. You know, Jordan, now I'm wondering if the reason our friend here has trouble controlling her emotions is actually connected to her husband's neutrality. Because, look, she might get very activated when it comes to reproductive rights and gender affirming care because, you know, she genuinely cares about those issues. And I believe that.

37:29But I also know that she desperately wants to communicate with her husband. She wants to be recognized. She wants to be listened to. She wants to listen to him. She wants to be connected, right? Even when they disagree. And he's making that very difficult right now. So when she gets worked up, when she gets flooded, I wonder if buried in that response is also a message. And the message is, pay attention to me. See me. You know, take me seriously. Yeah, I can see that. But at the same time, she might also have some work to do in self-regulating in these conversations. Fair. So she's not only leading with her emotions in political debates.

38:04Both can be true, for sure. But to be fair, I don't think it's just her husband who's being avoidant. In her own way, she is too. She said that he had some fringe ideas about Hillary Clinton, which she generally ignored because love is blind. Yep, interesting data point. And then she said this other interesting thing, that she's worried that this mental block of hers is going to lead to an even bigger explosion with the election coming, which kind of surprised me because I don't think this is a mental block at all. Nah, that jumped out at me too. This is a legitimate concern about a very real issue between them.

38:33So framing it as a mental block, I don't know, it just makes me feel that she might be invalidating herself too. And that's another thing I think she could look at. I totally agree. So yes, I have no doubt that this election is going to bring up a lot more of these conflicts with your husband and that this issue will fester and lead to something worse down the line as all unaddressed conflicts do. But this isn't ultimately about Trump or Kamala or the right to choose. This is about your husband's struggle to be in an open, communicative, vulnerable relationship with you. And it's about your struggle to consistently own your experience and engage with your husband in a way that makes it safe for him to explore this stuff with you, I'm very confident that you are not obsessing unnecessarily.

39:13Although it is possible that the anxiety and the other personality traits are informing how you communicate with your husband. And that's something else that I would explore with your therapist. But yeah, I do not think you should just let this go. I think this is a very important fundamental issue in your relationship. One you guys can absolutely work on alone or with the help of a couple's therapist. And one that you guys have to address if you're going to have a truly fulfilling and high a functioning marriage. So look, I hope you get to do that. I hope you remember to refill your Wellbutrin prescription before November 5th.

39:44I mean, I guess I'm kind of kidding, but you know what I mean? So get to talking and good luck. Speaking of fringe ideas, you know what Hillary Clinton and Jeffrey Epstein have in common? They both love the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. To learn more and get links to all the deals and discounts you hear on the show, visit jordanharbinger.com slash deals, or you can email me jordan at jordanharbinger.com.

40:14If you're lazy, you can't find a code, you're not sure if there is a code, I'm happy to surface those codes for you because it's that important that you support those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up. Hi, Jordan and Gabriel. After taking a year and a half break from corporate life to run my pet sitting service full-time, I recently took up a new role at an organization where we are all fully remote. This has been my dream setup. I always felt overwhelmed by the amount of chatter in an open office, in addition to the endless WhatsApp groups, emails, and phone calls bombarding me every waking moment.

40:48It also allows me to continue pet-sitting from wherever the client's house is, and caring for pets has been my saving grace after two decades of abuse in the corporate world. I gotta say, that's brilliant. Doing a remote job while you're pet sitting? You're literally being paid double for the same time, and you're surrounded by dogs. Nicely done. Well played, madam. Well played. So she goes on, At first, the communication on our WhatsApp group was manageable. Then the sales manager created another group just for our sales team, where she posts every single morning to check in. She does this checking in before she emails me more work of hers that she clearly cannot do herself.

41:25Yeah, I can see how that would be annoying and also unfair. I understand that the other account manager and I are new, but the amount of overcommunication on these two groups, plus the emails and phone calls and other social media noise, has got me spinning. And it's only my second month at the company. It would be fine if what was being said was useful information, but it's just chatter, and I simply don't have the capacity for it. That's a crucial difference. Communication, even overcommunication, hey, it could be productive, and sometimes it's important just for the social fabric of the company.

41:55Right. People need to bond. They need to belong, especially when they're remote. I get that. Right. But if you're waking up to 80 messages from people going, morning, everyone, did you catch the Olympics last night? Here's a photo of my latte. Anyone else loving these Kamala brat memes? Can I ask about that spreadsheet for the fifth time? I mean, that's just a different animal entirely. And I can't with that stuff, man. This is part of the reason I'm not cut out for corporate life. I feel you. I really do. I also understand that we're remote and it's nice to feel part of the company, but I've always been kind of a loner, preferring to hang one-on-one or in smaller groups so I can really get to know and focus on a person.

42:30Let me just stop and say, Jordan, I am like this too in a lot of ways. She sounds like a classic introvert slash individual, and that's hard. It's hard to integrate into a company when you're that kind of person. I get that. Are you saying that you don't love the general channel of our Slack? Is that what you're trying to tell me? If you can just take the chatter down a lot. Stop posting memes of yourself. No, I don't do that. I got to say, Jordan, one of my favorite things about our Slack for the company is how little unnecessary talk there is. I agree. Like when people share something, it's because there's a reason.

43:04And yeah, we banter and have a little fun here and there, but it's like, it's not mindless. No, I really appreciate that. And it's also like every two days or three days, somebody makes a funny quip and other people respond and people click emojis. It's not like every hour someone posts a meme and everyone's expected to react to it. Ain't nobody got time for that. Truly, and there's some connection here to Cal Newport and guys like that who are talking about focus in this modern world. There are so many things that become jobs in and of themselves and they take you away from the real substance of your job.

43:33I get it. It's frustrating. So she goes on, I've never had a problem maintaining professional relationships and I'm confident that people remember me even when I'm not talking a bunch of fluff to them every day. Also, my role requires me to reach out to people to get new business, so I'm already talking to a lot of new people. Okay, she really doesn't want to talk to people. I get it. Now I wake up every morning dreading the day, and it's extremely exhausting, mentally and emotionally. Some days it's not that bad, but in my mind it feels like I'm being bombarded, and I just want to be left the f*** alone.

44:04Separately, because I have a writing background, I've become the go-to person for editing and grammar checking all company material, for which I am not being compensated. whereas my sales colleague is sitting pretty doing sweet f*** all in that regard. I initially offered my help for social media posts as I was noticing so many grammatical errors it was embarrassing. But now suddenly I'm the resident editor. There's already someone doing the content so I just feel like I'm being taken advantage of. And doing this person's job on top of it all is just a bit much. Alright, just to address this part right off the bat because it's actually fairly simple.

44:37A, I love that you volunteered your help simply because you care and take pride in your company's work. It sounds like you're a grammar Nazi like Gabe. Yeah. Wow. Two Nazi references in one episode. What a weird theme today. Yeah, but two very different contexts, right? The husband from question one, bad Nazi. This listener, good Nazi. The kind of Nazi who doesn't spell lose with two O's. I got you. Yeah. I hate that. I hate that. Everybody hates that. Anyway, I love this quality of yours. It says a lot about you. But then, okay, B, now that you're providing this value and basically doing another person's job, you have total license to ask to be compensated for that work.

45:11And if that would make you feel better, I think it's worth considering going for it. We're big fans of getting promotions like that, and you've laid the groundwork beautifully. I know it's annoying, but let's not lose sight of the fact that you are an effective and valuable employee with a great mindset. And when you're ready, you can put a dollar value on that. Now I'm wondering if I'm in the right role at all. Maybe I'm just not built for this modern world. And on a deeper level, I secretly despise being pushed into a writing and editing role, but it keeps happening no matter where I go. Okay, I'm sorry to stop again, but this is really interesting.

45:44I love this part. So let's be clear about something. It doesn't keep happening. You keep offering because you're awesome and or you do a good job and your bosses ask you to keep doing it. So the resentment that you feel might not be about being pushed into a role that you didn't sign up for. It might be more about whether that work is happening on your terms, whether you're being compensated for it, which to Jordan's point is partly under your control now. Totally agree. Man, there's so much going on here. Yeah, there's a lot. So she wraps up. I wish I had the courage and talent to be an actual novelist, a creative writer who doesn't have a million people talking to me, and I can just get into a flow state in a peaceful, quiet place and produce a novel worth reading.

46:25Maybe I shouldn't be part of a team at all. How do I cope? signed Growing Impatient and Managing Expectations When I Can't Silence My Notifications. Well, there are many layers to your story. It's actually pretty fascinating. So let's try to get to the heart of things here. First off, is it possible that you're in the wrong role? That you're not meant to work in teams? That you're not designed for this modern world at all? Sure, it's possible. And if this kind of environment is not fulfilling or stimulating enough for you, or you're not being paid enough to deal with the parts you don't like, then it's absolutely fair to make a change.

46:57It's also possible that you're totally equipped to work in teams and this just isn't the team for you. But I also suspect that the way you're interacting with this environment, the way you relate to your boss and your peers, how you manage all this communication, those are also shaping your experience. It's not as simple as like, my job is this way. The fuller story is, my job is this way, I am that way, and they're making me do X and I respond with Y and together we create this experience called dread. So my first piece of advice is you need to learn how to stay on top of these communications in a way that isn't as taxing for you.

47:32The content and volume of the messages, that's not going to change. But you can change in the way that you handle that part of your job. And that could look a few different ways. For example, it probably means setting aside part of your day just to catch up with your messages. It might be 20 minutes. It might be an hour. It might be once in the morning and then once at the end of the day. Might be short bursts throughout the day. But you need to sort of quarantine that aspect of your job to specific windows where you go, okay, this is my dread window. In this window, I experience dread. I talk to my annoying boss.

48:03I see who needs what from me. I smash that prayer hands emoji on Dale from accounting stupid freaking latte art. And I do it because it's part of my job and it creates community. And also my boss is kind of hopeless and I'm managing it in a way where it doesn't take over my entire life. I think that'll get you a lot further than just, I don't know, coping. In fact, if you do this, I don't think you'll need to cope nearly as much. And look, this isn't just time management and discipline and all that. This is about creating psychological windows for yourself so that you can attend to these frankly not so fun responsibilities without feeling like you have eight unpleasant feelings dominating you all day, every day.

48:41Exactly. Her work mind is like the worst version of Inside Out ever. Totally. There's dread. There's anxiety. There's resentment. There's overwhelm. There's existential conflict. They're all fighting. There's introversion and they're all fighting. Yeah, they're all fighting for who gets to push the buttons on that control panel in the brain. This would actually be a great premise for Inside Out 3. Like Riley grows up and gets a remote job at a tech company she hates when she really wants to like be a hockey coach or something. I guess I would watch that movie. So I should be forced to watch that movie with my kids.

49:09Highly relatable to me right now. By the way, the other thing that this might look like is learning to not take these communications too seriously. And by that, I mean a lot of messages, emails, tweets, DMs. They all seem so urgent, right? Your boss checks in, somebody asks you for something in Slack, the social media person wants a proofread, your other colleague wants a sales update. I mean, these things matter, of course, but you have to know which things matter the most. But when things are chaotic at work and you're balancing a lot of people's needs, you need to develop a force field around yourself so that other people's messages don't overwhelm you or topple you.

49:43You need to have like a, what was that phrase from like high school biology? Semi-permeable membrane. That's exactly what I was going to say. How did you know that? What are you, my co-host or something? Yeah, a semi-permeable membrane where the relevant things get in when they need to, and the unnecessary things like meaningless chatter stay out. It's actually a form of boundaries. And that's not something anybody else is going to teach you because A, most people are not good at this. And B, it's not in your boss's interest to teach you how to not let her affect you too much. So you need to teach yourself this so you can learn not to be so emotionally entangled in the tone and the content of all of this stuff.

50:21Yeah, you need to turn this part of your job into a system and just work the system. Extract the necessary information from these messages, figure out your to-dos and next steps, deliver on your promises and just keep moving. Let's also remember that this is only her second month at this company. She is still so new. And those first few months, I would say like the first six to nine months of a new job are very overwhelming. You know, you're still learning the rules, the politics, the personalities. is you're figuring out what you do need to pay attention to, what you don't need to pay attention to.

50:50So I think she's still in that phase. And actually, I do believe that this will get easier. I also think there might come a point where she can say to her boss, hey, you know, these morning check-ins where you text me, I appreciate it. I know you want to be on top of me and you want to make sure we're all in sync, but I've got this now. You know, I think we can skip the morning check-in and I'm going to circle back with you in the afternoon. Is that okay with you? Maybe that will be the solution. But also let us remember, we are hearing from a writer here. True. Y 'all are a sensitive bunch. Maybe that's easier said than done.

51:17I think she can totally do all of this, but again, she's an introvert who has this dream of being a novelist. So I would not be surprised if our friend here is also more sensitive and thoughtful than most people and can be deeply affected by all of this stimulus. So yes, maybe she needs a place that fits those qualities better, but also being super empathic, being very sensitive, those might not always be entirely really helpful in a traditional job. In your writing, it's essential. So maybe part of this process is calibrating those wonderful qualities of yours and figuring out when to deploy them and when to quiet them down a little bit so you can just function.

51:55But what we really need to acknowledge here is that you have this dream to write a book, and it sounds like part of your distress right now is that this job is taking you away from that goal. And if that's really what you long to do, then you're going to have to find a relationship with your writing that fits in with your jobs. I do wonder if all of this communication stuff feels worse right now, not because the communication is so intense, but because it's at odds with your true purpose, and what you really need to do is resolve what career you are actually building. Or maybe you have some more complicated feelings about your writing, and that's spilling over into your work stuff.

52:29For example, maybe part of your resentment about being the unofficial copywriter is that your company is benefiting from your talent without paying you any more, and meanwhile you're not benefiting from your own talent in the way that you want. Or here's another theory. Maybe your reluctance to ask your company to compensate you fairly, maybe that's showing up in your personal writing too. And that's why it doesn't feel good because this is a skill that you need to develop in general. So again, there is probably a whole bunch of stuff going on on your side of the equation here. And all of that is informing how you feel about this job.

53:01Yeah. Interesting point. Also, just to say, if you do decide to go full-time into your writing, it's not going to solve all your problems. You're just going to have new ones. And those might be just as challenging as the ones in this job, maybe even more challenging because they'll be entirely about you and your process, which is brutal. And that's why you can't win. No, I'm just kidding, but also not. No, but you're right. It's important to recognize that the fantasy of being self-employed, the fantasy of, you know, being a creative, working alone, very seductive. But it doesn't mean that it's going to create a life that is entirely free of stress.

53:31And if you're going to pursue your fiction writing seriously, I do it because you really feel called to that work, which it sounds like you might, and not just because it's an escape from other people. And like I say on the show from time to time, when you start your own things, you don't wanna be running away from something. You wanna be running towards something. For example, I wanted to start this show way back when because I was doing it in my spare time, every waking moment when I wasn't working, and I was trying to do this stuff in between doing all this other stuff. Not because I hated the law and I wanted to escape from Wall Street.

54:02Just something to keep in mind as you consider pursuing your creative writing. You want to be running towards something you love, not like, I hate my boss, I should just start my own business. So before you quit or you go full Jane Austen and decide that this modern world just is not for you, I'd give these ideas a try and just see how they change your experience at work. They can't make it worse, but if they don't make it better, you'll still get great experience showing up in a new way, and that is incredibly valuable. You've got this. Good luck. Recommendation of the week. I am shocked by the amount of people, Gabriel, that do not have Yeti mugs.

54:35And it doesn't have to be Yeti brand. It has to be those kinds of like double wall aluminum mugs. Whenever I take an Uber, for example, I see these people and they have like a plastic bottle and I go, isn't your drink just warm and gross after a few hours? They're like, yeah, it sucks. But what am I going to do? I go to a 7-Eleven every two hours and I refill it with ice. I'm like, what a pain in the ass. My Yeti mug, I fill that thing up with ice and I put whatever in there and I come back like six hours later after leaving it in a car that's over a hundred degrees and it still has ice in it.

55:06Amazing. Throw out all of your old cups and replace them with these. I love the Yeti mug. Somebody gave me a gift. Actually, my producer, my dear friend Brenna, gave me a personalized Yeti mug with the name of my short film. It was her wrap gift for all of the cast and crew. Nice. I use this thing every single day. And yeah, you can put hot tea in there in the morning and then you come back in the night and it's still piping hot. That thing is incredible. It's crazy. It's funny because Yeti is not like the coolest, hippest design. It's not like a Stanley cup or whatever. That's the trending one right now.

55:36It's Stanley. But that's what I love about Yeti that they have this like classic kind of like slightly frumpy camping vibe to them. It's like a little bit funny looking, but the technology is incredible. Big fan. Yep. All right. That's our recommendation. Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for our show. If you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes or just the show in general. If there was an episode you really liked, an episode you really didn't like, you want to share some additional thoughts or learn more from other people in our show fam, definitely come check it out.

56:04Some really cool conversations happening over there. You can find that on Reddit in the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. All right, next up. Dear Gabe and Jordan, I've been with my boyfriend for five years. He's my first ever proper boyfriend. We own a house and we've been together pretty nicely since we got together. Then, about six months ago, I met somebody at work. Let's call him Bob. Bob noticed me and approached me first, and we gravitated to each other. He has a long-term partner and kids, but constantly reminded me that he's very unhappy in his relationship. Scumbag. We formed a friendship and genuinely cared about each other.

56:41After a while, we had a conversation about our feelings for each other, but decided that nothing more would ever happen because of our situations. For the next few months, I was very happy. Even though I was sharing my life with my boyfriend, Bob gave me attention and made me feel cared for and loved. Then, after four months, Bob left that job. On his last day, we went for a swim in the lake, got some food, and at the end of that beautiful day, it was hard to let go. We laughed and said that it felt like a breakup, but a good one because we still had love for each other. And I thought that was it, that we could go back to our lives but have this happy little memory that never turned into something we might regret.

57:20Uh-huh. Until? Until he started messaging me and our messed up relationship continued and we even met up a couple of times, one of which was with his kids. Oh my, ugh. Come on, man. Yes, it's catchy. The messaging continued for a while. Bob implied that we should move to another company and start working together again. Then one day we went on a trip with our friends. We ended up alone the first night and I asked him what this thing between us was. He became quite defensive and said there was no point in continuing this because I would never leave my boyfriend and he'd never leave his girlfriend and children.

57:58And that was pretty much the last time we spoke. I asked him the next day if we could talk but he brushed it off. I've tried to be as fair and honest as I can and do right by the people I love, but I now find myself in a horrible situation. I don't know if I have the strength to look my boyfriend in the eyes every day, knowing I had feelings for somebody else. Bob and I never kissed, but just the fact that he was in my life feels like something I should tell my boyfriend because he's my best friend and it feels like I'm keeping a part of my life secret from him. I know that our trust can never be mended once it's broken, but I feel as if I failed him and he deserves someone better.

58:36Should I reach out to Bob and see how he's feeling as he's still somebody I care for deeply and I never wanted to hurt him? I don't want to pursue anything with him. I just want it to end on good terms because we work in an industry where we might bump into each other.

58:53As if. Why do you think he ended things like that? And most importantly, should I tell my boyfriend about all of this? Signed, taking the sting out of coming clean. about this emotional fling. Okay, good questions. First of all, your relationship with Bob, it was obviously very complicated. There was a layer of genuine friendship. There was a layer of flirtation and romantic interest. There was a layer of two colleagues who really got on, kind of like a work wife, work husband situation. But obviously you guys had real romantic feelings for each other. You shared some pretty intimate conversations and experiences, which I think probably falls under the category of emotional cheating, since the relationship wasn't clearly defined and your boyfriend wasn't aware that this person was even in your life.

59:35That said, I do want to give you guys some credit for being somewhat responsible. You didn't want to do anything you'd regret, which I commend you for. And it sounds to me like you both knew what was at stake if you really went for it. And that's probably going to make your next move easier now. So look, before we talk about Bob and your boyfriend, let's talk about you. Putting aside the ethical quandary for a moment here, I think this relationship with Bob has revealed a lot about you, about what you want from your friends, from your partners, about what you're getting from your boyfriend, what you might not be getting, about your values, about your boundaries, about the qualities you respond to in other people and what roles they're playing in your life.

1:00:13The first thing you need to do, and this is work for yourself, is to take a step back and try to understand what this relationship with Bob was all about. What aspects of yourself got revealed through this interesting friendship? For example, what is it that Bob gave you that you didn't have? Looking back, did you really need that love and care from this person? If you did, then what does that tell you about your current relationship? What does it tell you about Bob? If you didn't, then why did you continue engaging with him at all? What made it hard for you to say, Hey Bob, I really care about you.

1:00:46I know you care about me. Our relationship means a lot, but I have a partner. So do you. I want to be clear about the meaning and terms of our relationship. I want to be good friends. I want to tell my boyfriend about you. What do you want? Or, look, if you felt that Bob was the better partner for you, what stopped you from going, okay, I'm wanting to explore this relationship, but if I'm going to do that fairly, I need to end things with my boyfriend first, and I need to give Bob the opportunity to consider redefining things with his partner. Those are just a few of the big questions that come to mind.

1:01:17And what I'm getting at is, every relationship we form, every choice we make, they teach us something crucial about ourselves. if you put aside the judgment and the shame for a moment here, and I'm not saying they're inappropriate. I'm just saying on the level of you having some curiosity and compassion for yourself, if you put those things aside and you ask yourself what this emotional fling with Bob is trying to tell you, I think you'll arrive at some important insights. And you'll be better prepared for any conversations with your boyfriend about all of this. If I were you, I'd be more curious about that right now than about whether to reach out to Bob and see how he's feeling or whatever.

1:01:53I could not agree more, Jordan. Now, about the Bob of it all, I understand that she's conflicted about whether to continue with him. And I do believe that on some level, one of her reasons for wanting to reach out is to end on good terms, blah, blah, blah. So it's not awkward. But as you can tell, I think those are probably clever reasons for reaching out and seeing if there's still some territory for them to explore. Definitely. She's also asking us why did he end things like that and honestly we can't know the answer to that. I'm getting the sense that Bob carried a lot of guilt over your relationship, probably a lot of sadness and frustration, a lot of conflict just like you were.

1:02:26By the time you guys ended up on that trip together, he probably needed to cut ties and step back in order to get some clarity or just some relief which again I can understand. I also think it's important for you to remember this is a guy who is very unhappy in his relationship, but doesn't seem to be willing to do something about it. Someone who's settling for an unhappy relationship, and presumably he was unhappy before he met you, and that was probably one of the reasons that he pursued you, that is a person who has a lot of other important issues to work on aside from you. Honesty, integrity, self-understanding, courage.

1:03:01Without knowing all the details, I can almost promise you that Bob struggles with some pretty big stuff. And he would have a lot of work to do before he could be a truly fulfilling partner to you. And also before he could engage with you in a way that was healthy and fair. And the reason I'm saying this is, I think it's important to de-idealize Bob here. And to really make sure that you are seeing this guy clearly, warts and all. So that when you think about whether to reach out to him, you are in a relationship with all of Bob, as he truly is. And not just the version of Bob that was so enticing these past six months.

1:03:34Great point, Gabe. I also think there's a part of her that wants to reach out to him so she can ask him that question. You know, why did you end things like that? I need closure. And that's probably one of the hardest parts about all of this, right? Feeling like this person she was so close with is now mysterious and inaccessible. That's hard. Yeah, it's an ambiguous loss. So my take is, yes, put the Bob conversation on ice and do what Jordan said and learn to tolerate the discomfort of not being in contact with Bob and just focus on yourself. You can always reach out to Bob down the road if that's appropriate.

1:04:04But reaching out to him now, I think that might be a way to sort of short circuit these feelings or circumvent them or shift the focus to this other guy when it really should be about you and what you're going to do about your boyfriend. So the million dollar question, should she tell her boyfriend about all this? My short answer is yes. I think that's mine too, but man, is that going to be hard? I am cringing so hard just thinking about that. But like you said, the fact that they didn't ever get physical, I do think that's going to make it easier. My longer answer, by the way, is that I think you need to go through this process that Jordan described and get clear on what this whole Bob relationship meant and what it was designed to teach you.

1:04:41If you do that, you're going to be in a much better position to know, first of all, if you still want to be with your boyfriend, which it sounds like on many levels you do. But second, if you do, what you need to tell him about this thing with Bob so that you guys can resolve this and move forward in a new way. Which means coming clean about the emotional affair, but more importantly telling her boyfriend why she was drawn to Bob, why she kept it a secret from him, what she's learning from this whole experience. And how she intends to show up differently in their relationship going forward, especially as it relates to honesty.

1:05:10Like, how do I share these parts of my life with you? Is it okay for me to have guy friends? Can you trust me to have guy friends? Which might be a little dicey after this experience, but that's why she hid it, because she was either trying to protect him from certain feelings he would have about her having an intimate relationship with another guy, or she felt like maybe this was unsafe in their relationship. I think there's a lot that's going unspoken. That's the problem. And if she doesn't want to stay with her boyfriend ultimately, then I might still encourage her to come clean to him because I still feel like he would deserve to know.

1:05:39And I think he's going to need some explanation, but that's up to her. I think either way, she needs to come clean because she can't move forward with fairness and integrity in a way that doesn't leave her boyfriend, who sounds great, in the dark. My only final thought is this. Yes, part of your job in this conversation is to tell your boyfriend the facts of what happened. But this is not a one and done thing. This is probably going to be quite a shock to your boyfriend. It might be very painful for him. And you guys are going to have to go through a process together to make sense of this and to figure out these unspoken things that you guys are not addressing, if that's what you both want.

1:06:11So I would also prepare to make a lot of space for him in this conversation. You're not just going to have to tolerate your feelings in all of this. You're also going to have to tolerate his, which means bearing that tension, feeling that sadness, being willing to dive into the regret, the guilt, and being gracious and patient while you each move through this in your own way. Just keep that in mind as you prepare for this chat. You know, Gabe, I think she's about to learn how to deliver a really difficult piece of news and to take accountability for what she did and sit in the pain of that as they either work through this or they break up with all the information on the table.

1:06:45Right. But also, I have a strong feeling she'll never make this mistake again because now she knows the awful position that it puts everybody in. And how much easier it would have been to either stay away from Bob or process her feelings and define the relationship the way it needed to be defined. But this is how we learn, right? One of the first things she said was that this guy is her first ever proper boyfriend. So it might be her first time navigating these situations. And so I give her some grace as a probably young-ish person who is learning an important lesson the hard way right now. So go do your work, go have this conversation, and trust that the bob of it all, as Gabriel said, will become clearer in time.

1:07:23And the next time you meet somebody who means a lot to you, especially a male someone, you're gonna be much better equipped to make the relationship healthy and fair or to put that person in their proper place in your life, which is a skill, and I commend you for developing it. Good luck. Hope you all enjoyed that. I wanna thank everyone who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. Thank you all so much. Go back and check out James Sexton, two parts, It's super insightful wisdom from a divorce lawyer who's also divorced. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust.

1:07:54I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course. It is free. It's not gross. It's not schmoozy. You can find it on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com. The drills take a few minutes a day. This is the stuff I wish I knew 20 years ago. Dig the well before you're thirsty, folks. Build relationships before you need them. Again, over at sixminutenetworking.com. Show notes, transcripts on the website. advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram.

1:08:24You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's over on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing things that you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please do share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

1:08:52In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. Discover how withholding bathroom breaks can be a strategic negotiation tactic, why everyone should try entrepreneurship at least once, and when it's acceptable to burn bridges. I left Marvel, remember the straw that broke the camel's back? We started Image Comic Book. I had to create my own character, my own comic book. I pulled out this character called Spawn, somebody I created when I was a kid, when I was 16. Spawn comes out, ends up setting a record for the most sales ever by a creator that is non-corporate.

1:09:27And I've never drawn a page for Marvel or DC since. I think there are thousands that are way, way, way, way, way better than me. I don't say that humbly. I say that as a fact. But there's another piece to it. Then there's the hustle. and I am relentless on that part. What I'm not ever trying to do is slay the giant. I'm never going to do it. I'm not big enough. I don't have enough resources to do it. That's not the goal. The goal is to survive amongst the giants and to thrive amongst the giants. And then you get to ask sort of the ironic question, why can't the giant kill me? They've got nothing but time and effort and money and resources and they can't squash me.

1:10:11And then in the toy business, I've got a toy business. I go up against the Hasbros and Mattels of the world. And those are Fortune 500 companies. I literally am at war against giants every day of my life. I either accept what's in front of me or I go and change it. If you're successful at art, then the byproduct of that is cash. Cash to me should be sort of the last thing in the equation. Dive deeper into these intriguing topics and more in episode 999 of The Jordan Harbinger Show with Todd McFarlane.

1:11:07spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies. An interesting episode to check out is called Speaking Truth to Goop, where Jen Gunter breaks down the pseudoscience behind the wellness industry in a way that is super entertaining and eye-opening. It's sharp, funny, and makes you a lot harder to fool, which, if you listen to this show, you know I'm all about that. From exploring cults to analyzing our cultural and political landscape, the Conspirituality podcast will help you stay informed against misinformation and resist fear tactics.

1:11:38Find Conspirituality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. Shopify's point of sale system helps you sell at every stage of your business. Need a fast and secure way to take payments in person? We've got you covered. How about card readers you can rely on anywhere you sell? Thanks. Have a good one. Yep, that too. Want one place to manage all your online and in-person sales? That's kind of our thing. Wherever you sell, businesses that grow, grow with Shopify. Sign up for your$1 a month trial at shopify.com slash listen. Shopify.com slash listen.