1039: Tareena Shakil | An ISIS Recruit's Journey and Escape Part One

23:25I can pluck a bit out of any book and be like, look, this is what it says, but hold on. Did you read the whole thing? But you weren't a scholar of the Quran at that point in time? No, absolutely not. No, not at all. So he just weaponized it against you? Yeah, absolutely. And another thing was like he was a revert. He was from a Catholic family. And throughout our conversations, he would always make me feel like stupid, if that makes sense. Because he was like, you were raised in Islam. How am I teaching you your religion? Well, because fanatical converts are the ones who know the most about this stuff typically anyways.

23:55Well. At least in terms of propaganda. I think at that moment I just felt stupid because I was like, you know what, he's right. How don't I know what he's saying when he was raised Catholic and just has been Muslim for like, I don't know, maybe one year or two. I'm probably not a good Muslim. So I kind of believed what he had said a little bit. We set himself up as an authority in order to exert that authority over here. My God, yeah. We would speak every time he had internet. I found myself worrying if he didn't have internet because I was like, is he okay? I thought of him as a friend. Sure.

24:25Literal friend. He did make some insinuation about getting married when I got there. I didn't want to marry him, so I had blocked him before I ended up traveling over there. I got the numbers of the people that I needed to get that would get me over there. Whatever. This guy, by the way, he was a European, right? He was Portuguese. Yeah. And he had left Portugal and gone to Syria. Yes. So he came to London to be a footballer. He was a really, really, really good footballer. And I don't know, he made friends in London with, ended up becoming Muslim in London, I believe. I think that's where it happened for him, really, yeah.

24:59Interesting. I'm sure that MI5 is on top of that one, finding out how this guy got radicalized in London. I'm sure he wasn't the only one that it happened to. No, of course not. I'm sure there's probably loads of people that it happened to. You know who won't sell you into human slavery? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, these thinkers, these creators, and these kooks who'd run off and join ISIS every single week, it's because of my network. I'm teaching you how to build your network for free.

25:27I know networking is kind of gross. I'm talking about the circle of people that you know, like, and trust, not some sort of schmoozy circle of backscratching and glad-handing. 6minutenetworking.com is a free course I developed that teaches you how to improve your relationship building skills and inspire other people to want to develop a relationship with you, strengthen your relationships that you have, make new ones. It's non-cringy. It's very down to earth. There's not a lot of awkward strategies. In fact, there's none. I endeavored to make sure there were none. Just practical exercises that'll make you a better connector, a better colleague, a better friend, and a better peer.

25:55And many of the guests on our show subscribe and contribute to the course. Come on and join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. Once again, all free at 6minutenetworking.com. Now, back to Tarina Shaquille. so you tell your family i'm going on a beach holiday in turkey with my son and they're like okay have fun and then how does it go from there you flew to turkey so i flew to turkey i booked like a one-week holiday now what i will say is it was never a hundred percent sure that i would run away to syria yes i traveled with that in mind yes i booked turkey with that in mind but i was saying to myself all along i'm just gonna see how this goes how far it goes because Remember, only the best of Muslims make it here, yeah?

26:38So you have to be special to make it there. Maybe I'm not. Many people got arrested on the way. I don't know if people died on the way. I was wondering about that. I was wondering how they, because it's a militarized border. They're not just like, oh, all right. Yeah, Syria, it's right over there. So they've got people that patrol the border on the Turkey side, so they would know. Because look, the border is hundreds of miles long, right? It's not possible to probably monitor the whole hundred miles. I think there are checkpoints in certain places, but some of it, as with every border, I mean you can just probably walk over yeah farmland desert it was pure desert that's what it was so I traveled to Turkey with the idea that that is where you cross over to Syria but I was like you know what let me see but I want to mention before because it's important so I went on a Monday to Turkey the night before I traveled I went back home to Birmingham I don't know to like see the house for the last time or get a few things because I had been staying at my mom's because remember, ex-husband's in Yemen.

27:31Well, husband's in whatever, is in Yemen. Current slash ex-husband. Yeah, current slash whatever he is. I don't know. I don't care. It's complicated. He's in Yemen. So I was staying at my mom's. So I went back to get like a few things, say goodbye to the house. And I will never forget. I sent him a message, my ex-husband, and I said to him, look, this is your final chance to tell me now. Are you coming back? Yes or no? I don't want to play games. I didn't say because I'm thinking of running away to Syria. I didn't say anything like that. But I was saying, look, are you being serious? Are you married?

27:58Do you not care about your son like you said? Because I would say things like, what about your son? Are you not going to come home? Oh, my son will grow to be a man. He'll find me. And all of them kind of things. Heart-wrenching things. And I basically got a message of profanity back saying, move on with your life, basically, amongst all these swear words. I'm never coming back. I don't ever want to see your face again. And I was like, are you sure about that? Okay. Obviously, I cannot continue with what I want to say, i.e. you will never see us again. He's like, yeah. Who cares about you? Whoever cared about you.

28:26Still abusing you from Yemen. Literally. But I just want to say that the God honest truth is, had he have said in their messages, I'm coming back on Thursday, because he was coming back that Thursday. Ironically, the day I crossed over the border into Syria, the day before is the day that he came back. So he knew when we had this exchange that his ticket was booked and he was coming back on the Thursday or Friday. He just wanted to piss you off. He just wanted to be nasty and horrible. Had he have said in that moment, look, I'm coming back. God honest truth, I would never have traveled into Syria.

28:54We wouldn't be sitting here. Wow. It's mad. How close it all came. I mean, not close. It did happen. So, okay. So you flew into Talia, Turkey. Then to, I'm going to get this wrong. It's called Gaziantep or something like that. From Antalya to Istanbul. From Istanbul, you have a number to ring of a guy. So it's a chain of events. It's not one person who you're in constant contact with. Get to Antalya, ring this number. He tells you to fly to Istanbul. Get to Istanbul, ring this number. He gives you another number. Fly to Gaziantep. When you're in Gaziantep, ring this guy. And it's just a chain of events.

29:24So yeah, Antalya, Istanbul. of course because who are there's no like they don't want to check on you you could be anybody that's a good point but ended up in gaziantep southern turkey which is inevitably one of the places where they used to cross people over from the other place was called sanlie ertha but we ended up in gaziantep okay so and what's in gaziantep there's like a safe house it was a safe house yes just like a three or four story broken down house if that makes sense i don't know third floor all men fourth floor women obviously i was in the room with the women a lot of russians really yeah oh yeah like chechen guys or something chechen daghestani russian um where else were people from uzbekistan okay you know places like that south america caribbean really yeah yeah how random is that how do you go from the caribbean to join isis i mean you're from the uk so i guess that woman had such an interesting story the one from the Caribbean oh she was it was a woman well because I was in the room with her so she had gone with her husband and you're gonna think this is mad but I met loads of people whose stories are like you know I said to you like well I was in two minds whether to go and if my husband had a text back so many people have there had that same story not the exact same but like because my husband wanted to and I just like came and I didn't really question and you would think now hello yeah there were so many women I met people with extraordinary stories and she was one of them she was like I don't even know if I'm properly Muslim.

30:50It's mad. I know. It's crazy. It's crazy. Wow. And they're all going to Syria. Yes. Was anybody really ready for it or was everybody kind of like, yeah, I don't really know what to expect, but I think it's going to be great. I think not a lot of people spoke English. So the people that I could speak to that spoke English, I think there was one family who was a lot of people had people there that had already gone. Okay. People like myself that didn't have anybody there were few and far between. To them, this is the best thing because they've had their family tell them how it's good and they're going to be with family.

31:24Seldom did people totally leave everything behind like I did and go and be on their own there. So they must have thought you were the weirdo actually, right? Do you know, I had this conversation with somebody when we first entered into Syria, a girl that spoke English, and she said, sister, I hope you don't mind me saying this, but I am in awe of you. And I was like, why? She said, like, to be on your own. I don't fathom that. I can't understand that. She was there with her two sisters. Her sister's husband was there. They had a whole family there. She was like, I couldn't do this on my own. I respect you.

31:55And I was like, I've never seen it like that. But OK, thank you kind of thing. Sure. Oh, my gosh. I've traveled alone abroad, certainly not to Syria. And people are like, wow, I can't believe you did that. So I have like a 10 % understanding of that. Like, oh, you went to this whole country and set up a life on your own as a young person. Yeah, I just didn't. I didn't do it in a war zone. And I didn't do it with my kids. I can't even go to the grocery store with my kids. So I have to say you did, regardless of where you went, it is impressive in sort of every sense of the word that you did manage to do it with a child.

32:25It would have been so annoying to do that with my kids, to say the least. So how old are you at this point? Like 26 years old? 25? 24. Branching on 25, should we say. Okay. And then how long were you in Syria? Eight weeks. Okay. Wow. That must have been eight long weeks. What is it like there? Well, actually, let me back up. You're in the safe house in Gaziantep. How do you get into Syria? Like you said, the border's sort of protected, sort of unprotected. What is that like? Basically, a truck came and got us all together and drove us, I don't know, 40 minutes, should we say, to deserted farmland.

33:01Desert. Just rocks and dirt kind of deal? Literally, sandy. Wow. Pure desert. And then they were like, get off, run, run, and showed us the direction to run in. So we ran in that direction for, I don't know, maybe 30, 40 seconds. There was another guy waiting. Run that way. There was another guy waiting. Run that way. I probably ran for like three minutes. No more than five. On the other side, there's like, you know one of them trucks that's open back? The back is open. I don't know what the name of that vehicle is. Like a pickup truck? Pickup truck, yes. We just mounted the back of that pickup truck.

33:33And when everyone had crossed the border, they drove us to this first safe house. It's always a Toyota Hilux, by the way. They love those things. I don't know what the deal is. It's like ISIS buys us half of them. I didn't notice the vehicle of the truck because I think my adrenaline was running wild at that moment. So, yeah, I now I'm thinking about it. I remember exactly how I felt in that moment, getting on the back of that truck. To find the words, it would be numb. Numb. Oh, OK. I made it. What am I doing here? But this is what you wanted, though, wasn't it? A circus in here. And when I say a circus, I don't mean it's all fun and games.

34:05It's going wild in here. I probably didn't have the words to say in their moments because it's like, Tarina, this is real now. Yeah. This is real. Up until then, it had been speaking with people on the internet. It had been watching things on the internet. That's not real. I'm in England watching this. It's real when I'm here. As mad as this sounds, and there will probably be loads of things that I say that sound mad. To me, it was kind of like an adventure. No, I get it. And I was like, oh, mission complete. Wild. But it's like, made it here. Oh, only the best Muslims make it here. Yes. Yeah.

34:41Brilliant. It's mad. But at the same time, what have I done? Family. My God. War zone. But at that time, I hadn't seen bombing or whatever because you're on the outskirts. And it's like mixed emotions within myself. If you were with me in that moment, I probably couldn't have spoken to you. I didn't have the words. There was a training camp of fighters and they were like doing martial arts. That was the first time I seen it in real life. and I don't want to use the words in awe because that insinuates that I was looking at something and really happy but dumbfounded okay you are the people that I've watched on the internet for like I mean the grooming process took like six weeks it wasn't long at all but it became a big part of my life it was like every day watching them do the jump through the fire hoop that's the thing I was laughing I'm like what skill is this where you're jumping through a hula hoop that's on fire You never know when you're going to have to jump through a hula hoop that's on fire, do you?

35:36That's right. That's right. You never know when they're going to have one of those in a war zone. Full jokes aside, have you ever met someone famous that you're like... Sure. Like, oh, my God, there's Val Kilmer. Of course. Not that they were famous, but it's like, oh, okay, this is you. Yeah. In that moment, frozen. Starstruck, but for ISIS. Well, not starstruck, because if I seen Jennifer Lopez, my heart would hit the deck. I would fall over and be bright red. So like none of that happened, but it's not like starstruck. It's like, wow, you guys are real. It happens. It's real. You guys are really here.

36:09Wow. And then you roll into, was it Raqqa? Is that the way they take you at first? No. So we spent like a week and a half in a place called Drabalus, which is maybe, I don't know, an hour and a half away from Raqqa. Okay. After like a week and a half, felt like a year and a half, the van came and took the people that weren't married into Raqqa because most of the women, as I said, that were there I had family already that were there that would come and get them and take them off to live wherever. So I went on a bus with, I don't know, maybe 20 other girls to Raka. That's quite a few people. Yeah.

36:37Well, in the house that we went from on the bus, there was 150 people living there. Wow. It was like a farm, a Syrian farm. 150 people. So there's like one place here, then another big house here. Yes. Wow. Yes. Loads of women. Yeah. Loads. Holy moly. Loads, loads, loads. Okay, so you go to this like residence for women, for lack of a better word? They refer to it as the Makar. What are the rules of this place? Right. So you're not allowed to phone on you. For security reasons? Well, you could be anybody. And, you know, a lot of the media that came out of there was controlled. You couldn't just start tweeting from Syria.

37:14You'd get into a lot of trouble like that. Okay. Only set people could. You know, like they had the poster people. I don't know in America if they had like... You got ISIS influencers. Yes. But like, yeah, spokespeople. And there were like two or three people that England knew were there that were like quite famous for running away there. And they had like a platform and like you say, ISIS influencer. I don't know another way to describe it, but they had special permission to do that. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally. I couldn't just go on Facebook and be like, hi, Tarina Shaquille here, loving it.

37:43No. And that's one of the reasons why when I was in Syria, there's no social media posts from me at all. News coverage, yes, loads of it. but posts from me on Twitter, Facebook, none of them were logged into at all because you can't. So yeah, phone's taken off you. You're not allowed to just go out and about when you want. No. Because you're a single woman, is that why? I mean, I guess. You just don't go out and about. Okay. It's not done. But men can do it, right? Around Raqqa, but none of the fighters could. And I always found this interesting. I don't know why. An ISIS fighter could not just get on the bus from Raqqa and go to the next city.

38:15You have to have something called waraka. Waraka means paper, which is permission to travel from the person who's in charge of Raqqa. So everything is controlled. Women, a lot, yes. Men, to a degree. All of it controlled, men and women. Well, yeah, it's a security state. Of course it is because we don't know who you are. We don't know what you've seen. We don't know what your intentions are. And what I will say is women like myself who would come from England, France, America, countries that were part of the coalition that were bombing ISIS, they were the enemy of ISIS. so people like myself who come from a country that was in the coalition were always treated differently always always some level of scrutiny always watched that bit more always I don't know like kind of like whispering behind your back kind of thing yeah people who would I mean I was with people from Uzbekistan Turkmenistan you know they were a lot freer than we were because it's like okay like you're probably not a spy if you're from them countries I don't know what the rationale Yeah, there was like a 10 % worry that you were actually a spy.

39:18Yeah, absolutely. Like, it's okay, cool. I noticed that the girls like myself, like, they would just question a little bit harder. Oh, so share your story with me. How come you're here? Because like I said before, there's no check. You don't apply for a visa to go there. You know, anybody can go there. How do they know I'm not a spy? And particularly, like, with my involvement with the media, I just had all eyes on me at all instances, really. Because it's like, who is this girl? Big question mark over my head, all of these. Do your parents know that you're in Syria at this point? How did they find out?

39:49So you were not supposed to tell your parents anything. Okay. I was with people in Syria whose parents thought they were in Turkey, whose parents thought they were in there in Morocco. Like on a long trip. Well, yeah. I'm just working in Turkey. Like, whatever. I'm just traveling through Turkey. I'm backpacking. You know, it's not untoward. People do them kind of things. Yeah, of course. But me, I'm from a really close family. Oh, I don't want to start crying. our family is built on love yeah all we have is each other as in mom dad sister two brothers we just have each other right we're a unit we fight together we die together kind of thing i first sent the first message when i was in gaziantep to say to my dad look i'm not coming back he thought i was joking because look you would never i'm having such a great time i'm never coming home not what i mean dad literally i was like dad i'm no i said i'm going to syria i said that to my dad And he was like, right, whatever.

40:43We'll see you when you come back. Because he wouldn't think, nobody would think that about me. You just wouldn't. I've never had them interests. There's nothing pro-extremist extremist in my past, or even since I've come back, there's nothing there. Well, he's thinking, oh, my daughter who watches the Kardashians is joining ISIS. All right, have a fun trip, honey. We'll see you when you get home. 100%. That's what he was like. You're so funny, whatever. We'll see you when you get home. Literally, to the point where even the day before I came back, the day before I was supposed to come back, which was the following Monday, I was in Syria and they were messaging me saying, we're leaving for the airport now.

41:15Oh, that's sad. Yeah, I'm not happy with myself. There are a few things like that that happened. I hate myself for that. Let's be honest about that. Cruel, horrible. Man, what was their reaction when they realized that you actually - So as a precautionary measure, they had rang the police when I had just entered Syria. Because my dad was like, look, at this point, I don't know if she's actually joking or like, she's going along with it a bit too much now. Like, because if something's a joke, you just say it once, right? And you have a laugh about it. But when they carry on asking me and it's the next day, it's like, no, dad, I told you I'm not coming back.

41:46So he had called the police already. But they still had that hope in their heart that I was joking with them to the point where, yeah, we're leaving for the airport the day before. I guess they were holding on to the fact that it was a joke. Right. You know, because you don't do that, Tarina. Right. Our daughter doesn't do that. Our sister doesn't do that. You're coming home. We know you are, you know? Yeah. Oh, my God. So when did they realize that you had actually left and joined? I think the moment they knew it was real was when I wasn't on the flight. Like, I was I didn't come back. So then they called the cops and they're like, OK, we think she actually.

42:21They had called the cops already. Like, because I remember I told them from Gaziantep, I'm going into Syria. And then like he obviously he messaged me the next day. I was like, I'm in Syria. Surely they called the police back like, hey, she missed her flight. Maybe she wasn't joking about the thing I reported yesterday. Because it was such a serious complaint that they will not complain serious. The police were in constant. dialogue with them. So I think on Monday they were like, look, yeah, I really haven't come back. We'll come back to that. What is Raqqa like? You're stuck in the house, so I'm assuming you didn't witness any violence or anything like this.

42:52No, I haven't witnessed any heads on spikes, dead bodies or anything like that, no. On TV at this point, in the West we're seeing ISIS beheadings. They murdered that pilot by lighting him on fire in the cage. I mean, that had happened when I had come back. I see, okay. Yeah, there was a lot of violence in Syria that the world had have seen. Whilst I was there, I didn't see anything like that. At the time that you were over there, ISIS had even beheaded a couple Brits, actually, by that time. A journalist, I think. Okay. And I know that the attacks on the West happened after you left already, but I'm guessing, were you aware of, like, hey, they beheaded this journalist, but he was a British guy.

43:29You must have known that had happened, but thought, oh, well. I mean, well, I think it had happened before I had gone. Yeah. And I spoke to the Portuguese guy and I said, look, what's, come on, like, this is what we're seeing on the news. What's going on here? The narrative was always, do not let them distract you. Don't you know the media hates Islam? They don't want us to have Sharia. They will do anything to kind of stop you from coming here. So it was kind of said like, look, it's not real. I see. So they were arguing, hey, this is fake. Fake news. Yeah, it's fake. And at the same time, look, Tarina, don't get sidetracked.

44:03They will do these tactics. They say anything to make Muslims look bad in the news. Look, you're a British girl. You know how it goes. The media is the enemy of Islam kind of thing. And then he would go on to say, well, do you know how they killed the Muslims in so and so? And do you know how they killed the Muslims in Afghanistan? And, you know, kind of like bringing it back. Like, do you know how the Shah al-Assad slaughters the Muslims over here? Do you know what he does to their children? And kind of like as a distraction technique. Well, what they do is worse or, you know, even if it was real kind of thing.

44:32So you kind of, that's horrific, right? Beheading somebody regardless. But the speech and the dialogue you have with this person kind of makes you think, put it to the back burner, if that makes sense. Sure. So he distracts you from it and says, even if it is real, which it might not be, they're doing worse things. Look at Assad use chemical weapons on people. I mean, there were horrific stories that come from Syria about how Bashar al-Assad tortures the people. And, you know, they are heart-wrenching stories. Yeah, he's a bastard. There's no way to get around it. He's evil. And I didn't know about them things until speaking to this guy.

45:03I didn't know. I don't watch the news. So he'd be like, well, read this about the Syrian. And you read harrowing things that even are inflicted upon children. Yeah. To the point where at one point I genuinely thought, thank God you guys are there. Yeah. Because it was like, well, we're here to liberate the Syrian people from Bashar al-Assad. But at the same time, we're setting up Sharia. So like it's a win-win kind of thing. So there was a point where I thought, my God, thank God you guys are there. You're saving the Syrian people. Thank God. You know, and part of the thinking was like that. Yeah.

45:36You know, so you kind of seen them as the good guys as much as the whole world knows what they are and that they're this evil group that do things that is not Islamic and like that are so against Islam. Most Muslims hate ISIS passionately. I have Muslims that troll me. That troll me. and you think, dude, understand it. We must like, you need to understand the concept of it. But no, they go in. They go in. So I think a part of the narrative was for you to resonate with them. Oh, thank God we need you there. Yeah. Would you say at that point, were you kind of turned against the culture of the West or was there something else going on?

46:13For me, it's never been about against the culture of the West or anything like that. It was more about... It's hard to undo the programming you get from the Kardashians. That's a lot. That's a lot to, you can't really undo that. It's there forever. Geordie Shore is forever. Geordie Shore is forever. And we'll always be watching them kind of things. That's right. For me, honestly, it was about making hijra. Hijra is migration for the purpose of Islam. It was, I need to save myself from the fire. If we live in this country, we're going to hell. And at the same time, you know what? Remember, I need revenge on my ex-husband as well.

46:48So it was loads of things. It wasn't just this one. Never have hated England. Never. For what? We're free here. That's what everybody's wondering. She left this great place to go to this shithole. I get that. I get that. Trust me, I do. I have never hated my country, ever. We are free here. You can be Muslim here. You can be Sikh. You can be Jewish. You don't have to believe in a God. And it's fine because you have that opportunity here. And, you know, we've always loved that. It's a great country. You know, I've never hated England, but that's been put to me a few times. like a few times like oh you must have hated England never and there was one time when living in the house in Syria in Raqqa I almost got into like a lot of a lot of trouble a lot of trouble because I remember it there was this spiral staircase and like everyone was just sitting down eating and I was walking down the staircase and there was the woman that used to look after the house there was two women one that was in charge of the whole house and one woman from Saudi Arabia that was in charge of the women inside the house if that makes sense so there's two, one from Morocco, one from Saudi.

47:50We spent all of our time with the one from Saudi. She was in charge of us. I just came walking down the stairs one day and the woman from Saudi, she said, as a joke, here she is, the Queen of England. How nice of you to come and join us or whatever, because they were like fascinated by my accent. And they said, you sound like the Queen, like, you know, all of them kind of things. The Queen has finally joined us, you know, taking the piss kind of thing. She then went on to say, oh, but don't worry, we will get your throne back, blah, blah, blah. We'll take over England one day. She said something like that.

48:17Then I said, You will never take over England. Like that was my literal response. I said, you know, my actual words were back here, England. Back here means it will remain. When I tell you the room went silent. Wow, crickets. Literally went silent, turned round. And she's kind of like, what did you say? And I was like, oh, God, I shouldn't have said that kind of thing, you know. So, yeah, never hated England. Almost got into big trouble because of that. Yeah. Whilst over there. But, yeah. You know what's better than getting bombed into oblivion over in Raqqa, Syria? The fine products and services that support this show.

48:53We'll be right back. If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable over at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. If you can't remember the name of a sponsor, you can't find the code, email me jordan at jordanharbinger.com. I am more than happy to surface that code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now for the rest of part one with Tarina Shaquille. When was it like, oh, this is dangerous.

49:23This place is dangerous. So I wanted and was supposed to escape after like a week of being in RACA. There was a group of girls that escaped before me. They just ran out of the house? How did that happen? Basically, what happened was I would wake in the middle of the night to go to the toilet. And for three nights, the same group of girls were sat there talking in the hallway. and every time I walked past, they were quiet. You're quiet, yeah. One of the girls I had become very good friends with, a girl from Qatar, lovely girl, not best friend, but like I just spent a lot of time with her. So on one of the days, I said to her, look, I see you there every night, what's going on?

49:58And she said, listen, please don't tell anybody, but we are planning to escape. Wow. At nighttime, come and sit with us. So there was like her, three other girls and on the fourth night, I went to sit with them and they were like, how are we going to do it? And I said, you guys are meeting up every, this is what you guys are talking about. She's like, yes, don't tell anyone because we would have been killed. No kidding. So the German girl said that she knew of a guy that was an ISIS fighter that probably could have helped her and the plan was flimsy. The plan was to jump over the wall and... Of the house.

50:27Of the house, yeah, because we lived, it was a mansion. The governor of Raqqa used to live there, but he obviously fled when ISIS took over. So this is like probably a$10 million house kind of thing in a fortress. So their plan was to jump over the wall and potentially take refuge with this ISIS fighter who, and I'm thinking, how can you put your trust in? The plan was flimsy. They were going to sleep rough. Say the least. I said, look, I am dying to leave this place. But remember, I've got my child with me. Oh, yeah. I can't. If I didn't have my child, I would have jumped over the wall with them.

50:59I said, look, I've put him in enough danger as it is already. I need something more than we're going to just sleep rough. And how do you know the ISIS fighter is not going to turn his back on you? Sleep rough means what? Outside? Well, like outside, yeah. Like we'll just find somewhere to sleep and then, look, I've already messed up majorly. I can't do that. I need something more than, oh, I kind of know of a brother that, well, what if he like goes back on you? What if he, what if you can't trust him? This is a guy who joined ISIS and he's giving his life for ISIS. Absolutely. You think he's going to smuggle you out of there?

51:26Of course. So they jumped over. So the next day, the women of the house, the Saudi Arabian woman went to like the doctors. They went on like a big trip. Remember, you cannot just leave the house on your own. So the sisters weren't with the kids. I didn't witness it take place, but they must have jumped over the wall, right? And they said, look, when they come back, cover for us. I said, okay. I said my goodbyes to them. They went, after like some hours of the Saudi Arabian returning, she was like, where's um, whatever from Germany? And the whole house started looking for them. This was after like hours.

51:57And they were like, um, Britannia, like mother of England. Let's say that that's what they called me. You, because you're not allowed to tell people your name there. Oh, okay. I was like, what do they call you? Yeah, because everyone, you're not allowed to give your real name there. Really? That's kind of strange. It kind of is, but it's like, okay, if I escaped and got arrested like I did, so now I can't tell you the Saudi Arabian woman's real name. Right, that's true. I don't know her real name. She is Om Khalid al-Saudi. That's it. So I can't go back to my country and give an account of her.

52:28And there's no photos because you didn't have a phone. No, at all. So do you know what I mean? So it's kind of like for the purpose of anonymity. And she was like, Om Britannia, you were the last, you're a really good friend with her. Where is she? And I was like, oh, I don't know. Knowing damn well they've gone. She was enraged. She was like, oh, my God, you know, we'll find them. Anyway, they never did. But I was supposed to escape with them girls. I was just biding my time after that to try and find the way to escape. Yeah. Because I need to leave this place. I can't be here. You said in a BBC interview that there were two girls who were like, unruly is the word you used.

52:59What was the deal with them? So one of them was an Algerian girl from France and one of them was a Dagestani. When I say unruly, it's not unruly. It was, they were probably missing home. They didn't want to be, they wanted to be left alone. Like she wanted her phone. This is the Algerian woman. She was just like, I don't want to eat with everybody. I just want to be on my own. And then they were like, no, you need to come and sit with everybody. What are you doing there? And like that kind of behavior was determined unruly. Okay. So she got into a fight with like, I think it was a Saudi Arabian woman there because she had tried to like attack her and hit her.

53:35And I remember trying to stop that fight. But after like a day or two, I don't know, they just got fed up with this Algerian French girl and a van of ISIS fighters came in the house and just took her away. Oh my God. Literally, yeah. Do you have any idea what happened to them? I don't know. And the same thing happened to the girl from Dagestan They like beat her badly in the house badly. And then the next day it was just like, right, you're going. Never seen them again. Oh, man. What do you think happened to them? At the very least, they would have been taken to prison. Were they killed? I mean, I don't know.

54:07But at the very least, they would have been taken to prison. That must have been really scary. That was really scary. And when you think about it as well, at the same time, like I'm trying to escape as well. Yeah. So you're like, oh, I'm not going to mouth off to that Saudi woman, but I am going to jump over the wall with a child and trying to escape. which is way worse. So I was just trying to like find the way. I can't jump over the wall with a child. That couldn't have happened. No, of course. So I was waiting for something and at the same time continuously praying and at the same time I can't tell my family as well, look, I don't want to be here because there's all these stories going on in the media.

54:40Like I can't trust anybody. How do I know it's not going to happen that you're going to tell the media? Like you're getting me into big trouble here. You think it's cool that you're giving these stories to the media, but you're putting pressure on me here. like the Saudi Arabian woman is infatuated with me like she just wants to like be with me all the time oh because you're the girl from England you know it's weird so there's stories about you in the in the international my whole time in Syria like almost daily the British media like a famous tabloid literally I met people in England in prison that were in Syria at the same time as me that came up to me and was like oh my god I can't believe I'm meeting you I was like who are you She's like, yeah, we lived in Syria at the same time.

55:19Oh, gosh. Weird, mad, crazy, like out of this world. So you're like the It Girl of ISIS, I think, is one of the titles that I saw when I was prepping the show. Really? The It Girl of ISIS? Not a bad title. Not a bad title. I mean, yeah, they won't like me there. I know that unmarried women who join the caliphate are supposed to get married off right away to fighters. Like, that's why you had to be in that house or whatever. You mentioned that there was like a matchmaking situation going on. What was that all about? So basically, as soon as you got to the house in Raka, you would give your preference, i.e., what languages should they be able to speak?

55:54What country do you originally come from? How long do you want the beard to be? They didn't ask about the beard, right? But maybe they wanted to add that question. No, all jokes aside, questions like what languages do you speak? What languages do you want them to speak? What country do you want them to be from? And we will try to match you up as close as we can. Yeah, they just kind of wrote it down on a piece of paper. So it's like English, the end. I'm curious what your preferences were. I don't even know. All my preferences are made up to go along with the damn thing. I think I just, well, someone that speaks English.

56:25Yeah, yeah. Oh, my gosh. That's so weird. Someone that's going to let me go back to England. Yeah, like somebody who loves traveling. They're like, no, we don't really have that here. Someone who wants to go back to their home country. Yeah, oof. Oh, my God. So are they introducing you to these ISIS fighters? What are these guys like? So I did have a meeting with an individual. you have a few minutes to speak to this person you can't really get a good feel for them you just so in the room it's me that man and the guy who's the matchmaking guy and his wife but they will sit with their back to us they're just making sure that you don't like do anything inappropriate that's an islamic thing anyway like even now if you wanted to date you would not just go on your own that's just the rule that we're supposed to follow yeah i'm not saying every muslim follows that rule but you're supposed to do that okay you're not supposed to be alone as it were with someone who you're not married to people uphold that people don't but that's the ruling so yeah they were there for that to like minimize that being alone with somebody right and you just have like five minutes maybe not more than that really to speak to this person to make sure that they're not what are you supposed to decide in that five minutes if you want to marry them what are they telling like make sure what are you even supposed to ascertain i can't even remember what i spoke about oh my gosh five minutes i can't even remember what i spoke about in that moment some people think that you got married there because you were allowed to leave the women's residence and i know that you're like oh gosh why do people think that because you were allowed to leave the so it's not that i was allowed to leave it i she sent me to go and get internet because the story is the saudi arabian woman she was never supposed to be there forever she had a guy who i think he was kurdish that she wanted to marry okay but because she was arabic they wanted her to marry someone arabic they didn't want her to like go off with this kurdish man so they were not allowing her to get married the kurds fought isis but were there kurds in isis oh there were a lot of kurds it was the peshmerga kurds that fought against isis but yeah of course there were a lot of kurdish people who were there they were just not letting her marry the guy i think she had dialogue with him before she came to syria or whatever she just knew who she wanted to marry it wasn't a matchmaking service for her in fact i think she had ran away for that person like Basically, she had started speaking to him while she was in Saudi.

58:42He was already there fighting. So I don't know if they fell in love online or something like that. But she had met him, decided she wanted to marry him. She was coming there for him. They were not allowing that to happen. This woman was a shadow of her former self. She was in despair. She wasn't leaving the room or anything like that. Now, when we first got there, we weren't allowed to have our phones on us. The girls that kept hold of the phones had got married and gone off. I became to know where the phones were. because I was someone who was there who was there for like weeks. Girls got married and went within days of being there.

59:12So I was like a consistent figure kind of thing. You built seniority up really fast. Yeah. She was familiar with me. Everyone else, she has to get to know them all over again. But me, it's like, oh, I know you. You've been here for, I don't know how many. Well, I stayed there in entirety for like eight weeks. Yeah, you've been here for a good four or five weeks, whatever. I know you. I came to know where the phones were because she was Canadian or whatever. She got married and I knew where the phones were. Anyway, the Saudi Arabian woman, as I said, she just went back into her shell. She wasn't leaving her room and she asked me to go and get internet for her one day.

59:42Now, how it worked in Syria was if you live close to a internet cafe, you just go and buy a code and you just connect to their webpage and put the code in and you've got internet. I see. So she wanted internet. She sent me the first time and when I was walking to the internet shop, I seen the Caribbean woman's daughter, the one that I traveled over into Syria with, I seen her daughter and I was like, oh my God, like, where's your mom? Like this, this is a miraculous thing that I bumped into them. Small world. Yeah. Sent from heaven. You know, because I said to you before, she was very vocal about, I don't even know what I'm doing here.

1:00:19Like I don't want to be here kind of thing. But she went with her husband. She was heavily pregnant. It was different for her. She had her love who was there in her heart. I understand that. He's her husband from her home country. They love each other. So it's not mine ever matter for her because she loves this guy. Anyway, she's like, look, I don't know if I want to be here. She was saying all of these things from Gerabalus. When I left Gerabalus, she didn't come to Raka because she was married. Yeah. So we parted ways there. I gave her my number in Gerabalus, but I never heard from her. Like I said, I just seen her daughter in the park and I was like, oh my God, where is your mom?

1:00:53This is a once in a lifetime opportunity. Her mom was sitting on the bench. and the first thing I said to her was, do you still want to leave? She's like, oh my God, I want to escape so badly. And I said, me too. I'm at the house. I don't want to be here anymore. How do we go about this? She said, look, what are you doing now? I said, look, she's literally just sent me to get internet. And then I showed her where the internet shop was. She showed me where she lived. It was all very close. The streets in Syria, they're long, but there's a lot on there. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, she lived there and the internet shop was on there, but like it's a long ass street.

1:01:24She said, come with me now. I said, I've got nothing. I have got nothing. I've just come to get internet. And she's like, well, I don't do much. I'm just literally in the park all the time. But however I live here, I'll wait for you in the park every day. And if I'm not here, I live there. So I knew where it would be. Her husband was training as well. She was like, my husband's not at home. If her husband was there, I wouldn't have been allowed there. Sure. So I said, look, I don't know. Maybe she's going to send me to get internet. Maybe I'm going to jump over the wall. I don't know what I'm going to do, but I will.

1:01:54Just give me a few days. Right. I'll be back. After a few days when the Internet had run out, the Saudi Arabian woman, she was like, Britain, you need to go and get me Internet. I was like, oh, my God, yes. That was my chance. I had our passports with us because they never took them off us. I don't know why. A lot of people ask, why did they not take your passports? I can't answer that question. A lot of people did their own little ceremony of burning their passports when they got there. So I don't know if they thought that they didn't have to, but I had my passports, grab the passports, grab like the essentials.

1:02:24yeah and my phone and yeah went met up with the woman from the caribbean left the house never ever went back to that house again ever hid out in her house for like no more than three days no more than i'm surprised they weren't looking for well they were okay they were but they wouldn't have known where i was right and you know uh the thing is i'll get into the escape but what just to get onto your i'm surprised i weren't looking for you kind of thing i met up with the caribbean woman in turkey so i escaped before her because she didn't have the courage to come with me she's like i'm gonna see if you make it first i was like look i'm not staying they're gonna kill me if they find me i need to go escaped met up with her in turkey and she said the day after you escaped one indonesian woman that me and her knew of in gerbilis that was at the house kind of like we knew each other came to my house looking for you but they had sent her yeah literally they had sent her from because she used to live in the house in raca with me the caribbean woman didn't the Indonesian woman did.

1:03:20And she knew of like, oh, we used to be friends with her or, you know, kind of clutching at like straws or whatever. And they went to her house and looked for me. Is Raqqa dangerous at this point? Because are they being bombed? Yeah, there were a lot of bombs going on. That was another thing that was increasing. So that was why I was like, it's do or die. There's no perfect time to escape from ISIS held territory in Syria. If you're waiting for your perfect time, you'll be waiting forever. So that was on the increase as well when i first got there the coalition had hardly ever bombed but they were ramping it up and i was like i don't want this to sound well there's no way it can sound there is a difference between like the shah's bombs and the coalition's bombs but shah's bombs are very cheap it's very like you know that that bomb's coming i'm not saying they didn't kill people he killed a lot of people a lot of carnage but you can kind of like oh it's dropping there probably shouldn't be you know interesting like kind of get out of the way kind of thing well Well, maybe not avoid it like that, but you kind of have an idea.

1:04:17But the coalition's bomb, they were way more deadly, way more advanced, way more expensive, way more dangerous. Bombs are dangerous. Obviously, Bashar's bombs are dangerous, but these were way more. They dropped in silence. And there was one night where they bombed like 30 times, one after the other. That was harrowing. Yeah. That was petro... I thought I was going to die that night. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I'm surprised they didn't target that big house knowing that people were... in there. That was a place that they used to target. They used to target like training camps, houses. Maybe they didn't know that that existed.

1:04:51I don't know. Yeah, it was never hit whilst I was there. Afterwards, I don't know. I mean, I guess they probably knew you were there if your phone had ever been turned on in that place. Do you think? Yeah. Do you think they would have known I was there? Well, it's interesting that you should say that because when I came back from Syria and I was being interviewed by police and like all these other agencies, they said, the fact that you escaped is miraculous. If your phone did not pinpoint to the fact that you were in Raqqa, if we could not trace your phone to being in Raqqa, we wouldn't believe that you were there.

1:05:21So I guess what you're saying, then it was there. If your phone was ever on, whether you turned it on or they turned it on, they would have known where you were. Imagine them hitting the house like, we're going to get her. Well, I don't think they would have tried to get you. I think they would have said, well, okay, this person escaped there. She's not a high-ranking ISIS member. maybe this is where the foreigners are being held probably. I would imagine they would deliberately not target that particular place. Do you think? I mean, yeah. Knowing that you are potentially in there. I mean, it's not a really great military target if it's just a place where a bunch of people stay for a few days who escaped there.

1:05:55You're more valuable back in the U.S. or in the U.K. Yeah. Why does the FBI think you were married to an American jihadi when you were there? Waiting for that one? Yes, because, you know, right, so let's, let's, let's. When I said I had a meeting with somebody, that's the guy. Okay. And there was two meetings. I don't know if one of his family members has said to the FBI he was married to a girl. He did. He said it. What I've been told is that it was his family member that has said it, not him. Oh, yeah. No, he told a journalist that he was married to a gal from the UK. Yeah, but he didn't go on to say who it was.

1:06:31He didn't name you. But then the journalist went on and did research, and it was a family member of his that said that's who he's married to. Now, I had two meetings with this guy. You only ever have one meeting. I went back to the house and I said, look, I'm not here to get married, okay? I can't say that to them, but I don't want to marry him. So she's like, okay, whatever. Someone else will come along. Right, after a few days, they were like, the Americans come back for you. I was like, what? You need to go meet with him again. I went to meet with him and he's like, look, there are some really horrible guys here.

1:07:01Yeah, he's not wrong, I'm sure. Like, you will be safe with me. like you should just marry me. What a sales pitch. I am the least worst ISIS fighter. Essentially, that's what he was saying. Bottom 10 worst. That's essentially what he was saying. But, you know, there were some really horrible men there. I heard accounts from women that came back to the house that had been divorced and stuff that they had been through was harrowing. And I think that's what he was trying to say. Like, look, there are some incredibly violent men here. Like you could marry far worse than me kind of thing. Yeah. Right.

1:07:33You never give your answer then and there. Okay. So I was like, okay, food for thought, whatever. You know what? Food for thought. You know, I'll think about it. I'll think about it. Thanks for coming back. I'm not here to be married, but the pressure is on. So she said, the Saudi Arabian woman said, I'll give you a few days to think about it. She came back. I said, look, I don't want to marry him. She said, what are you doing? Don't you see we're in the middle of war? Blah, blah, blah. And I said, look, find me someone else. But in that time, I had gone to get internet or whatever. Right. I know the American guy.

1:07:59I met with him twice. And that's that. Yeah, well, he's not around anymore, so we'll never know. No, yeah, he is. Yeah. I obviously knew that because of the journalist. I knew that he had, like, come to pass. But I think he was married to a Syrian woman or something. He did marry someone else, according to him. And had children. But, yeah, that's my encounter with him. Gotcha. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show with Yas Al-Azadeh, who escaped Iran after the Islamic Revolution. This uprising is about 43 years of oppression. We have a corrupt regime, which is an Islamist regime, and has been torturing people.

1:08:39It has been denying them the basics of human rights. As you see, corruption doesn't really begin and end with hijab. It's everything and anything. It's about the dignity of making a living. None of that exists in Iran. People are poor because of this regime. They work hard, but they don't earn as much. It's horrendous the way people have been suffering in Iran. mentally, politically, psychologically, and emotionally. I don't think an American can actually imagine what it is like to live in a country that is not just a dictatorship, not just an autocracy, but a theocracy. That's what Iran is. This is different this time.

1:09:22The power of social media, the power of support by the worldwide our community, and how Iranians are not backing down. There is uprising and protests in universities across Iran every day. This is a revolution, and it will end beautifully with a free Iran, free from the grips of Ayatollahs and IRGC. For more on Iran and the recent protests, check out episode 746 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. All right, that's it for part one. Part two coming up in just a few days. If it's not already out, all things Tarina will be in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discount codes, and ways to support this show all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals.

1:10:03Please consider supporting those who support the show. Also, our newsletter, We Bit Wiser, is quite popular amongst y 'all listeners. The idea is to give you something specific, something practical, something that'll have an immediate impact on your decisions, your psychology, your relationships in under two minutes every week. If you haven't signed up yet, I invite you to come and check it out. It is a great companion to the show. Jordan Harbinger dot com slash news is where you can find it. Don't forget about six minute networking as well over at six minute networking dot com. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram.

1:10:33You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. And this show is created in association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. So if you know somebody who's interested in running off and joining ISIS. No, if you know somebody who loves a good story about somebody who did something far stupider than they'll probably ever do in their entire life, definitely share this episode with them.

1:11:01In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by Vital Proteins. You probably heard of Vital Proteins. They're the number one brand of collagen peptides in the US. And for good reason, a lot of people, myself included, take it pretty much daily to support things like healthy hair, skin, nails, bones, joints, all the good stuff. That starts to matter more the longer you've been walking around on this planet. But now Vital Proteins is shaking things up, literally, you can tell a dad wrote this copy, with a brand new collagen and protein shake.

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1:12:07Get 20 % off by going to vitalproteins.com and entering promo code Jordan at checkout. This episode is sponsored in part by Everything Everywhere Daily. You've heard the phrase, learn something new every day. Sounds nice, but do actively do it. That's where Everything Everywhere Daily comes in. This podcast makes it effortless. Just 10 minutes a day, you'll walk away with a fascinating fact, a slice of history, a science gem. It's no wonder the show has climbed up to the top as the number one history podcast. It covers history, science, technology, geography, and stories of remarkable people, always in a way that keeps you hooked.

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