1040: Tareena Shakil | An ISIS Recruit's Journey and Escape Part Two

24:23So it's like, yeah, let me just take a cool picture with it. You know, which is I know, I know, I know, I know. Yeah, it didn't look good. The jury did not think that that photo was as cool. I hate those photos. They're not cool. No, but them pictures, right? Okay. I didn't send them anywhere. The reason that they're in the thing is because they were on the phone. You know, I don't know. Look, it's all to do with the environment that we were living in. That was what we were living in. And that was what was around us. Look, have I ever taken a picture with an AK-47 before? Absolutely not. I appreciate your candor.

24:50Absolutely not. You know, it's just, look, that's what it was. I do appreciate your candor. It's definitely like, I can just imagine you being like, oh, God, why did I take those photos? Absolutely. The worst one is the one with the balaclava on. Oh, yeah, yeah. Why? What? Well, you were, you know, when in Raqqa, yeah, when in Rome, do as Isis does. I mean, that was just. No, that's the one that I feel sick when I see that picture. I'm sure you do. Don't use it in this podcast. I will not. You will. No, you can if you want. It is what it is. Look, it's out there in the public domain. It is what it is.

25:20I might for the YouTube version. Yeah, do it. Most of my audience's audio only. Only like 1 % is YouTube. So only 1 % will see the balaclava. I hate that. And I always think to myself, maybe one day I'm going to get them pictures removed. But you can't. They're in the public domain. Those aren't going anywhere. hate it, hate it. And every now and then when someone wants to troll me, they'll like send that picture to me. And I'm like, yeah, you know, you've heard me more than swearing at me by sending that picture. Yeah. Well, there's one Halloween costume you can never wear. Disgusting. Literally, no, we're not doing that again.

25:47Never. Yeah, you'll end up back in prison. Never. So you serve three years of a six year sentence. And during the time you're going through this, what sounds like a great idea, it's like a de-radicalization program. Did the program help you? What was that all about? So at first I was like, I don't need none of this. I know why I ran away. It was because my ex-husband I kind of like just went along with it but after like the first few sessions for me it was therapy because you speak about every last thing yeah from childhood to the domestic violence thing that's happened every last thing you get to speak about it because they get to the root of the problem yeah they get to the root of it I understood things in their entirety I understood like oh hold on yeah yeah this happened because of that because there's loads of reasons why people are groomed when you've been groomed you don't think yes I've been groomed you don't know about that I know a lot about it now because that's my area of interest but at the time they come out with these phrases us and they're my ideology and secluded people well you don't know that that's a real thing so it gives you a great understanding of oh actually this is what happened to me that's very useful in terms of moving forward with life because how do you know you couldn't be groomed again i couldn't how does someone know that that couldn't happen it makes you very aware whilst being in prison i went through like domestic violence programs that teaches you all about perpetrators of domestic violence and you learn things and it's like oh okay that's why that happens and then like there's loads of different figures like the dominator the this the that and you you understand it yeah it gave me a great understanding of it did you at one point go oh i was actually radicalized and i just didn't realize it so i said the first time i realized i was groomed was when like one of my legal team said look he's responsible for over 300 people running away to syria so that was the first time like this grooming thing started to become like a okay idea but this whole thing so really deep seeds of like you're gonna go to hell if you live in England like that stuff was deeply planted in me yeah it wasn't till I was in prison one day and I used to go to like the Islamic classes and because I never left my faith or anything like that we went to the Islamic classes and there was an imam there who was a great guy lovely guy I got really well with him we're just talking like we'd learned the Quran and I loved it because I'm like right I'm learning it properly like this is what this actually means I really loved it there and we come to talk about going to hell or something.

28:02And I said to him, I already know I'm going to hell. And he's like, Tarina, come on, subhanAllah, we don't, it's haram, we don't say them, we don't know who God's going to send to hell, we don't say them things. I said, no, I am going to hell. And he said, how do you know that? How can you be so sure? And I said, anyone who migrates for the sake of Islam but then goes back, God is at war with that person. So I know I'm going to hell. He literally, he just put his head on the floor. He had tears in his eyes. He was like, do you genuinely believe that? I said, yeah, that's what's going to happen.

28:33He said, no, Tarina, that's not what happens. And after that, he kept me really under his wing and was like, right, Tarina, we're going to just tell me what else it is that you believe. I'll go through the ayat of Quran, like the verses of the Quran. We'll speak about it. I'll speak about this hadith. He really looked after me, bless him, because it upset him. He had tears in his eyes. Well, yeah. So that was an amazing thing. I learned a lot through him in prison as well. Yeah, there's some things that are sewn really deep that it took a long time to unpick, as it were. I can imagine there was a lot to unpack, as we say.

29:06Yeah, some people right now probably think, and I don't agree with this, just for the record, they probably think, oh, she's still a terrorist sympathizer at some level. What do you say to those people? Because it's got to be, first of all, do you understand their perspective? Like, I ran off and joined ISIS. Of course, I totally understand why people would think that. It's like, come on, you made that decision. You still believe that you came back. You know, I get it. A hundred percent. I totally get it. And I understand that when you hear the story and someone says, well, I ran away because I was a victim of domestic violence.

29:34I understand that people would be like, well, yeah, you don't run away to Syria. I get that. Someone's going, hey, I was a victim of domestic violence. You know what I did? I spent too much time on social media. I understand that. I didn't join ISIS. I agree with that. I understand that. But look, we all break differently. And that was how I broke. That's the only explanation I have for that. But with regards to them saying, look, she's a terrorist, sympathize, blah, blah, whatever. Like, I put myself on the line every single time to raise awareness about this. I get nothing from that. Well, you get something from it.

30:02It's just nothing good. What? Well, yeah, but no, like, I don't get paid, like, a lot of money for that. I don't get paid money. I don't get... I do it because I want to help, to raise awareness. Nobody is like you. I don't work for the government. None of it. I do this all of myself. Yeah. I put myself on the line. I get some vile, nasty messages from people. As you can understand, who cares? Who cares? Whatever. Like, it is what it is. You get negative comments on YouTube. Negative comments on YouTube. but I do that, put myself out there, which is not easy to do. Some of the messages I get like have made my heart stop at times.

30:31So why would a person want to do that? Like when I get nothing from it other than the fact that they want to help. I don't enjoy receiving the nasty messages. I don't enjoy a random person saying, Hey, you should hang yourself. I do this. I put that to the side because I want to help people. Why? Because look, I have been to hell and back. Yeah. and I had the strength to pull myself back up because I have a great family. I have a great faith. I was able to. There are girls that have killed themselves that couldn't make it through this, yeah? If I can stop just one person, it will never be worth it.

31:06But me speaking out is worth it because other people are not as strong as I am. I get messages from people who are like, Tarina, I am the mother of a 12, 13 year old. Thank you so much for speaking out because look, A, I didn't know about grooming like that. Now I'm going to start paying more attention because obviously, look, we're living in a climate where the world is in a crazy place right now, should we say, right? And things are, they're very divided, should we say. And they're like, look, I need to keep an eye on what's going on on my 13-year-old's iPad. Thank you for speaking out. So that's why I do it.

31:38People are always going to say, look, she's still this blah, blah. I escaped of my own free will. Nobody brought me back kicking and screaming. So why would she do that when she knows that they would kill her. At one point I was faced with the decision of I either get caught by Bashar al-Assad or I get caught by ISIS. If I get caught by Bashar al-Assad, I'm not even going to say here what he would have done to me. Yeah. Let's not go down that route because I don't want to think of that. I get caught by ISIS. Okay. What? They'll probably kill me in a less torturous way. Look, I'm making this, summing this up in my head.

32:08You don't do that if you still support. You'd think, right, well, I'm going to die here with them and go straight to heaven. You would, of course. But yeah, people are always going to say that and think that There's nothing I can do about that. That's true. You know? Are you worried that ISIS might be encouraging people to leave the UK, training them and have them come back to the UK as like diehard terrorists? Because some people are afraid of that. I don't know how active ISIS is these days. I know they're still around. I mean, look, it'd be really hard for people to get back into like the UK or whatever.

32:37Presumably then people have been out of the UK for a long time. So like you'd come, you have to answer questions, things like that. I seen on the news yesterday that like ISIS is responsible for an attack in Afghanistan. on some Spanish tourists, it's still a problem that's really there. I think with regards to the threat that Western countries are at, it would be more someone being inspired by online grooming rather than ISIS sending people back. I think it's a lot more difficult to send people back, definitely a lot more difficult to send people back who've been trained than inspiring someone via their iPad.

33:11That's true. You know? That's true. So that's the biggest threat, which is why, again, I do the whole raising awareness around online safety because it's online. Most of the recruiting, radicalization, whatever, it's mostly online. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. That does make sense. Has it been hard for you to find jobs? Because I would imagine having gone to join ISIS is not a good thing to have show up in a background check from an employer. It's really not. Look, I was working at a place. I did my ITV documentary. They said, look, a few of the people feel uncomfortable with you working here. That's fine.

33:42I'll leave. I get it. Working? I was working. I won't go into it like what I was doing. I was working at a place. And they were like, look, a few people have seen your documentary, whatever. They're comfortable with you working here. I see. Okay. So I said, okay, that's fine. I can leave. But then I've worked for people who are like, so when I did the ITV documentary, I had two jobs. I had a morning one and evening one. So I was really like hardworking at that time. And the evening job, I said to the guy, oh, just before the documentary came out, I said, look, there's going to be a documentary with me on it.

34:09I just need to tell you it's about this. But that's the first time I told him about the whole Isis Syria thing. I said, I'll leave right now if you want me to. He said, you're not going anywhere. I don't be stupid. I said, look, I don't want to work here anymore. I feel like shy. He said, no, take a week off. Let the documentary come on because I gave him pre-warning. Yeah. But just take a week off. That's it. After the documentary had been on, the day before I was supposed to go back to work, I rang him and I said, look, I'm not coming back. And he was like, are you mad? Get yourself back here right now.

34:35Like, it's not going to happen. I had that understanding with him. He knows, look, that's not you, Tarina. You're a good girl. You know, I'll give you that chance. So yeah. That must have felt good though. It did. He's really supported me, bless him. Really, really supported me. So, yeah. There must have been so much fallout from that documentary coming. Because your family, I mean, surely the phone was ringing off the hook. Your daughter joined ISIS? Oh, no, it was known because of the whole media thing. Right, that's right. Still the it girl of ISIS. How can I forget? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone knew.

35:04So that was already, but then it became like national news once again. I just got messages from strangers. That's where that started. Before that, I hadn't had messages from strangers. We answered my message. I was surprised. I was like, she's probably not checking her DMs. How do you rebuild your life after something like this? I mean, one step at a time is the only strategy. So I have always found that being realistic and just being real works. Look, you have to be honest about it. There's no point being defensive and like, well, no, it didn't happen because of that. And it's not really my fault.

35:35Look, you don't get anywhere like that. Be real about it. Yes, I effed it up majorly. I did. I'm sorry about that. I can't change that. Look, if Elon Musk was to create a time machine, I would be first in queue if I had the money to use it, right? I would be the first, but there isn't. And that's wishful thinking. So what do we do? What we do is we work with what we've got and make the best of the situation. I effed up more than most people do. Messed up. But is that going to destroy me? No, I've been through major depression. I suffer from PTSD. I suffer from anxiety. Now, do I let that win me or do I win it?

36:11No. I win it. I'm sure you get asked about this all the time. The case of Shamima Begum. I'm probably getting her name terribly wrong. She's another British woman who traveled to join ISIS. I want to say, well, there's a lot of public debate about whether she should be allowed to return to the UK. And I think she had dual citizenship, UK, Bangladesh. She's Bengali, isn't she? That's her ethnicity. But I don't think she's never been to Bangladesh. Well, somehow her UK citizenship, I think, was revoked. Yeah, it was revoked. She's like basically in a Syrian refugee camp with children that she had with an ISIS fighter.

36:44I'm curious what your take is. You know, you were allowed to return here. You don't know her, right? So I'm curious what you think. Do we rehabilitate people like that? Do we bring people like that back into society? Because it's tough. I mean, it almost seems like a fair shake is she goes to prison like you did, goes through de-radicalization like you did. But man, the court of public opinion is really hard on people like this. Right. Right. So look, I can't sit here and say, don't let her come home. That would be hypocritical of me because I was allowed to come home. Right. I believe in redemption.

37:17I believe in second chances. I believe in rehabilitation, provided that the person wants it. You don't know what someone's thinking. You can't tell what's in someone's mind. You don't know that if they come home, the streets are going to be safe. I'm sure they will forever be a question mark over my head. How do we know that she isn't going to do something? So the problem with people coming home is it's what can be proven in a court of law. So there might not be enough to prosecute her. And if there isn't, like she wouldn't go to prison. She'd just be out and about. And I think that's because I have had conversations with people who work around that.

37:54And I'm like, look, how come they don't let her come back? Like I'm interested in it. And I think the general thing is it would be hard to prove it in a court of law because they don't know what evidence there is on her. Like they had my phone. So look, Tarina Shaquille, you're in court with being a member of ISIS or whatever, a prescribed organization. Are we going to get a guilty charge? Well, look, we've got pictures of her with an AK. Yes, we are going to get it. So they were secure in the fact that I was going to prison. Good thing you took all those photos. Well, do you know, it probably did save me in some sense.

38:21And we have had a situation in England where there was an individual that claimed to be rehabilitated, had gone down the de-radicalization program was at a, I think it was a university campus giving a de-radicalization speech to an audience that went on to commit a terrorist attack. Yeah. Was this the knife attack guy? And stab like loads of people. Since then, there's just no tolerance with regards to that. I mean, there's no tolerance anyway, but like, no. Now it's, does rehabilitation work at all? Absolutely. And it's like, look, we don't know what her intentions are. So the answer to your question is, I would like to believe that everyone has a second chance provided that they want that and that she just wants to come home and get on with her life but how do you know that that's what she does want to do it's tricky it's tricky i always look at her situation and i think to myself god that could have been me and i'm so thankful that it's not and i do get like i've read in comment sections before where people have said well how come she was allowed but shamima's not and you know people say all kinds of crazy things and yeah well then she shouldn't have been allowed back.

39:24But look, if we go down that line of arguing, I could then sit here and say, well, why am I the only one out of 50 women that went to prison? We don't go down that route. Why is it? I wasn't the first woman to come back and I wasn't the last, but I was the only one to be put in prison. So, you know, I could argue about that, but I don't because I'm realistic. Okay. They never went to prison. It's fine. But I did. I'm consumed with myself. I live my life. They didn't go to prison. That's on them. That's their business. You know? So yeah, people do go down that hole why was she allowed back and she's not and it's because her family are christian and she's white and oh i read all these crazy things about myself she's not even muslim she's really a government spy all i get that all the time i get that that's youtube for i get that all the time i get messages from people saying i don't believe you like you're a great actress you're a liar you were never in syria oh my god well then why did i go to jail are you serious literally like so many people say that it's not real okay i wish thank you yeah that's funny i But I think with that, what it is, is that I'm not what people expect.

40:22They don't expect to see that. And then I'll get messages from people who are like pro-ISIS, and they'll be like, no, you're not that girl. You're ashamed. Like now, look at, oh, yeah. Well, I don't know if we can care what the pro-ISIS crowd thinks of us, eh? Well, it's not about caring. It's just like from anyone, it's a nasty message, right? And you take it on a little bit. So it's... That's true. Although there are some folks you can write off, and it's usually, I think pro-ISIS is probably towards the top of the list. You know what's better than being forced into an arranged marriage with a terrorist?

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41:21And thank you for doing so. Now for the rest of my conversation with Tarina Shaquille. Your start to radicalization, it sort of began with you looking at the cause of the Palestinians and things like that online. Are you at all worried now? There's another Gaza conflict. There might be thousands more Tarinas out there with good intentions. They want to support the cause and then they end up making a sharp turn. And I'm not saying the Palestinian cause is going to do that. I'm just saying when people are vulnerable and sympathizing with causes that are just like this, it seems like it's just a goldmine for a recruiter.

41:55Yeah, it's definitely a dangerous time. I think I said before, like we live in a time where there is huge division and part of like the grooming process is us and them. That's a tactic. You know, if you learn about grooming, like I said, I learned through it via psychology in the DRAD program. One of the tactics is us and them. So we're living in division now. So it's a really, it is a dangerous time for vulnerable people because we're living in that climate. So, yeah, I think that's why I probably make a lot more videos and do a lot more interviews because it's relevant. It's always relevant, but it's like, right, this message is needed right now kind of thing.

42:31It always happens. in COVID. I think in England, like the cases of referrals for prevent went up by like 30 % during COVID because a lot of people were at home. So it might not be talked about a lot because it might not be in the news, but in the background, people who work in this area know about it. It's still a big problem. So regardless of what's happening in Gaza, Palestine right now, it's still a major issue. But something like that does, of course, it increases it because we're living in times of division. I couldn't understand that. I'm so curious if we're going the sea and we won't know for another few years.

43:03Oh, did we end up with tons more youth getting radicalized because of this? It seems like it's starting to look like that now. Just right now, those people might be protesting. But in a year, do we find them in Afghanistan or Syria or something like that? I guess time will tell. Do you worry that what you did at that time gives other British Muslims a bad name? I saw a lot of comments to that effect. And what did you say? Oh, just people saying as a British Muslim. We don't claim her. Yeah, we don't claim her. You don't claim me. You're giving us all a bad name. No, I'm not giving you a bad name.

43:33Yeah, what I did. So here's the thing. If you go into my TikTok page, you will see that I make a lot of videos about Islam. Stories from Islam, praying, blah, blah, blah. Right. Why do I do that? Because I feel major guilt that I have contributed towards this religion being viewed in a negative way. Yeah, sure. I contributed to that. Like, look, Muslims have lived with being called terrorists forever. They are not. It's not a religion of terrorism. But then it's like, well, then you have groups like ISIS and the Taliban. How can you not be? And it's like, look, guys, we really aren't that. Come on, like, give us a break.

44:07Yes, there are extremists in every group. And yes, maybe in Islam, they're probably a little bit more. But look, that's not what we are, guys. We've been fighting this for a long time that we're not terrorists or whatever. That's rich coming from me with my conviction. And, you know, I get that. So that's why I make the TikToks because I'm like, look, this is not Islam. It's not that it's beautiful. It's beautiful. It is a beautiful religion. It's amazing. And I feel horrendous that I have contributed to the negative view of Islam and that my name is associated with something that is horrendous.

44:39You know, probably one of the most violent groups that the world would ever see. I feel major guilt for that spiritually and physically. So, yeah, yeah, I feel guilty about that. 100%. You ever wish you'd just gone to the beach in Turkey and turn around and came home? every single day of my life you know i'll share a little funny story here quickly so my mom's sister bless her they've never really pushed me that much like i said they are not muslims muslims understand it a bit more just because of the whole concept of hijra and not living under sharia they get it a little bit more whilst they don't love isis we're familiar with them concepts yeah but to explain to someone who's not a muslim it's like oh my god you're not getting it at all muslims get it a little bit so i was like look you're not going to understand why i did it or but I was going through domestic violence and she literally turned around and said, well, you could have just gone and stayed at Nan's like grandma's.

45:29I was like, oh no. Well, I could have, but I could have. I could have. But, you know, I didn't. I wish I did have gone and stayed at Granny's, you know. There's a spare room there. Yeah, there is. But I didn't, unfortunately. This was what happened. And I think, look, if it can happen to me, it can happen to anyone. Nobody listening believes that, by the way. That's the one thing is you must be the most naive person on planet Earth. This would never happen to me. I think most people think this would never happen to me. Well, they probably would think that. But look, unless you've been in somebody's shoes, don't.

46:02I'm not saying that it can't happen to anyone. I'm saying nobody believes it until they're running over the farmland into Syria. You know, ISIS controlled Syria. Look, if it can happen to someone like myself that was raised like so liberally and like Like, even if you could do the most intense research into my background, there is nothing extremist before at all. And since, nothing at all. So where does the problem lie? One doesn't just wake up one day and say, I'm going to go and live in a war-torn country and I'm going to go and live with ISIS. It doesn't happen. There is the process and the process is the grooming process.

46:37Now, people can say that wouldn't have happened to me. The proof is in the pudding. There was nothing before and there's been nothing since and there would never be anything ever again. So the timeframe is this. So what was going wrong in that timeframe? Oh, okay. So she was married, right? Oh, she was going through domestic violence. Oh, this was happening. Like it can be proven if that makes sense just from looking at my life. So yeah, people are entitled to their opinion. If you've never been through domestic violence, you would probably say, look, the first time my husband slapped me, I'd walk away.

47:02You can't say that unless you've been through it. A lot of people do say that. That's true. Yeah, you do. I had close family members go through domestic violence when I was a kid. And I used to say, if my husband ever slapped me, I will leave straight away. I didn't. So, you know, it's one of them. It's one of them. Until you're in something. What do they say? Unless you're in somebody's shoes, don't. What? You can't walk it. What is it? What's the scene? I don't know. I was waiting for you to say it because I don't know. Don't judge the book by the color. Well, like you couldn't walk a mile in my shoes or whatever it is.

47:28I don't know. But yeah. That's a great ending right there. Just us stumbling over this cliche that we should both know. I'm going to ask you a question. Sure. If you don't mind. So there are people like myself that have come back to America. I watched a documentary on one person. and we don't need to name them or whatever. Okay. But in America, what is the general opinion of that? Is it like, no, she should be back over there. We hate her. That's a good question. I don't know who you're referring to. But there must be people, though, that have come back, right? That you know of. I'm sure that there are.

47:55I'm sure that there are. I don't know. But I'm going to guess that most people say, well, if you left us to go there, then you should stay over there. Yes. Yeah, I get that. However, if you know who the person is, and if they were freaking 15 years old, like Shamima Begum was when she went there. I think she was, but yeah. Yeah, she was young. No, I mean, the person I'm talking about, the American person, wasn't it? Oh, yeah. I mean, it depends. If you go over there when you're 30, I think it's most reasonable people would view it differently than if you go over there when you're 19 or 18 years old.

48:22Can I just touch on that? Sure. So I get a lot of messages like that that say, you weren't groomed. You were 25 years old. At least Shamima was a kid. Right. People get groomed in their 90s and 80s. There are old people that get groomed to signing people into their wills. Yeah, it's a scam. Yeah, literally, like they've fallen in love with their carer. I watched a documentary last week. Grooming has no age limit on it, nor is it selected via intelligence. I've had that said to me before. You're incredibly intelligent, Tarina. It couldn't happen to you. It's not a matter of intelligence. I will say I definitely expected to encounter one of the, let's just say, not the brightest bulb in the box.

48:58Really? I was like, how does this happen? This person is going to come in here and I'm going to have to wipe the drool off the floor after the conversation. but you are markedly more switched on than I would have expected from somebody who ran off and joined ISIS. Well, now I'm like, well, what's the problem? Yeah. What's the real reason, Torina? But yeah, no, I think that as well, it can happen to anybody. It's not selective of age. It's not selective by intelligence. Look, it's vulnerability. We go through stuff, right? And when we go through stuff, we do things that are crazy. It's about being vulnerable.

49:29Yeah. It's about being vulnerable. That is the main thing. People get groomed for whatever reason. People get groomed. I mean, in England, I think a while back there was a big problem with like youngsters being groomed to sell drugs. And it's like, well, do they not know that that's illegal? Well, yeah, of course they know that selling drugs is illegal. But like, do you understand what grooming is? Grooming is when you might have that fear like, oh, I can't just walk down the street with drugs, I'll get arrested. But the groomers there to counteract that, no, you won't get arrested. You'll be fine.

49:55We've got you covered. And if you get arrested, don't worry, we'll come and get you. That's grooming. There are people that get groomed that are, God knows what age, get groomed into transporting drugs. It's not an age thing. It's the groomer. It's about being vulnerable and isolated enough to fall for it. Yeah. Well, thank you very much for your candid. Thank you for having me. Really good conversation. Thank you. There we go. Here's a glimpse of my interview with the son of a Hamas co-founder before a change of heart had him working undercover for Israeli intelligence against his former friends and family to thwart terrorist plots and save lives.

50:29Check it out. Hamas is an Islamic movement. My father is one of the founding members of Hamas. Hamas for us was everything to the point where it became an army. It's a monster. I agreed to work with Israel with a hidden agenda to be a double agent. The level of pressure that they had to go through, my heart stopped for approximately 30 seconds. Most human beings cannot make it back. I was tortured mentally and physically. Everybody in the city knew that I'm a dead man. For more, including what it was like growing up in one of the first families, of which many consider a terrorist group, and why Masab considers it the greatest school of his life, check out episode 407 on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

51:21Like I said, strangely relatable in certain ways. Like, would I have run off and joined ISIS? Obviously not. Is she unbelievably naive? Yes. Is she a bad person? I don't think so. You know, I really don't. I think it's sort of weird for me to say this, but this really is like youthful folly and a sheltered upbringing and some abuse mixed together in this toxic pot and magnified a hundred times with absolutely disastrous consequences. I really expected to find her less sympathetic than I did. Was I in vacation mode because I was in London doing this in person? Was the jet lag getting to me? You be the judge.

51:52You let me know. Am I crazy? or was she just not as bad as you would expect from somebody who ran off and joined ISIS? Although one thing that stuck in my crawl, y 'all, the marriage thing. She said she didn't marry this guy. That just does not check out, right? She almost certainly did get married there. She was allowed to leave the house. She was allowed to go live elsewhere. I think she won't say so because maybe it complicates her case or maybe there's another element of shame in it. We'll never know. I didn't really want to pry into that. You know, if somebody doesn't want to disclose that, but they're willing to admit they ran off and joined ISIS.

52:20I mean, okay, there's something else going on here that doesn't necessarily need to be public if she doesn't want that, I think. And the rumor is that she married American ISIS fighter Russell Dennison, who is now dead. He was killed by coalition bombing. Oh, well, sorry. No sympathy for terrorists. I mean, yes, something, something, human life is valuable. But, you know, terrorists are terrorists. I hope you all enjoyed this. I thought it was a lot of fun. Very interesting insight. All things Tarina will be in the show notes at JordanHarbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals.

52:50Please consider supporting those who support the show. Also, our newsletter, I love this. It's so much fun to write. It's so much fun to see your feedback. Every week on Wednesday, we give you something specific, something practical that'll have an immediate impact on your decisions, your psychology, your relationships in under two minutes. It's a short read. And if you haven't signed up yet, I invite you to come check it out. It is a great companion to the show. jordanharbinger.com slash news is where you can find it. You can always hit reply and reach me after every single one. Don't forget about 6-Minute Networking as well over at 6minutenetworking.com.

53:20I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also find me on LinkedIn where all the not crazy people seem to be lately, although that's rapidly changing. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Couldn't do this without them. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. Actually, I don't care if they're friends of yours. You can share it with people you don't even like. That's fine. The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about.

53:49If you know somebody who loves a good yarn little story about running off and joining ISIS, you know, little just teenager stuff, typical teen stuff, run off to Syria across the border illegally with your child and join ISIS, share this episode with them. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time.

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55:10Get 20 % off by going to vitalproteins.com and entering promo code Jordan at checkout. This episode is sponsored in part by Conspirituality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy mad yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspirituality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

55:47An interesting episode to check out is called Speaking Truth to Goop, where Jen Gunter breaks down the pseudoscience behind the wellness industry in a way that is super entertaining and eye-opening. It's sharp, funny, and makes you a lot harder to fool, which if you listen to this show, you know I'm all about that. From exploring cults to analyzing our cultural and political landscape, the Conspiratuality Podcast will help you stay informed against misinformation and resist fear tactics. Find Conspirituality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts.