1298: Bjorn Ekeberg | The Evidence-Backed Benefits of Red Light Therapy

25:27And then afterwards, tell me I felt nothing. And that's typically what will happen is your body will over adapt. So it's a little bit similar to or to draw an analogy. If you go to the gym and you do your hard workout, you're stressing your cells, right? your muscle cells and you get to your threshold and then you leave and by the time you leave the gym you just go back in again and you do the same exercise three more times and add two more hours of the gym you're not going to get any stronger to your body kind of is over adapted it doesn't have the it's not the right stimulus response for it to get a reaction so it's very important not to use it too much that said it's not dangerous uh there is no known side effects of using it too much that anyone gets like ill feeling or anything you just don't get any results and you're wasting it.

26:13There's a precise window you have to stay within. And that is one of the reasons I wanted to start this company with a doctor who has clinical experience in it, because finding the dosing and guiding people with protocols for where to place it for the best effect and how long and general guidelines. This is what gives you results, not, you know, a toothbrush every second day. Yeah, that makes sense. How do you know if you're getting results from something like this? Because it seems so subjective in a way, right? It's like, does this feel better? Or did your pain lessen? I mean, obviously, when you're doing clinical trials or something like that, you have ways to control for that.

26:48But what about somebody who just buys this? Or, you know, like me, I have it on my desk. How do I know if it's working for me? Very common and understandable question, because the treatment itself is somewhat invisible, right? Happens under the skin. And, you know, if you try, did you try a flex beam yet, like on yourself? Yes, but like if I tried it twice, it's not like, oh, I got taller, you know? It's a light warming effect. So there and then you won't be able to tell immediately what it's doing, right? Right, I can endorse that it got warm. Like, you know what I mean? But that's what I'm asking.

27:20How do you know it works? Right. Obviously depends on what you want to use it for, right? So generally speaking, if you have something really fresh and acute injury, you just pull the muscle at the gym and you're in pain. if you use it very soon after, you may experience results within a day. Like that is immediately that has a relieving effect. For most cases that are more, say, chronic or that you've had that nagging back thing that you've been dealing with for several weeks, it also will take several days of consistent exercise or consistent use before you see results, if it's any muscular skeletal thing.

27:58So it does vary a bit. For pain, it is relatively, it's really effective to reduce pain. So that's usually how people feel at the most if they are in pain. For users, like when I got it, for example, I started trying the first prototype and I was eager. I am blessed to not have a lot of sort of injuries or major health challenges and stuff in my life. So in the beginning, I actually, I remember this the first time I used it. It was like, I don't feel anything. I don't know, it's doing anything. I don't know what it's doing. The switching point was for me was putting it on my stomach and trying to treat my gut for 10 to 20 minutes.

28:35And for one or two, or if I did three days in a row, I usually tell most people who want to try and just want to feel that actually does something. When you go to the bathroom the next day or after two days, you will feel a difference that you will like undeniably feel like something is shifting, something is moving differently it's having an effect really on your gut god that's that again going back to my earlier sort of quip it's like man that's so deep in there right i mean there's like abdominal muscle over it there's skin over it there's and then in the intestine i mean you're really that's really getting in there uh and it's like is that possible i obviously i guess it is but my goodness we did in vivo testing on like a body like how do you say like muscle mass basically but on a live person and measured how deep we could measure some of the energy going in with this treatment.

29:28And obviously it dissipates. It's mostly closer to the surface, but even at two inches in, we could still register energy, right? So if you say like, how deep is your gut in from the skin, for example, I mean, only one inch in, you're already like stimulating right in where there's stuff happening. Yeah. I suppose on that sort of absolute scale, it is quite that. I know that there's trials that they've done on rodents for, or I should say animal studies, you know, reducing intestinal inflammation, improving healing of intestinal tissue. I think there was another thing that's escaping me, like colitis markers or something along those lines.

30:06But, and people are going to go, well, humans aren't rodents. And I get that. But I do know that also there's some trials that use light internally, which is exactly what it sounds like, right? An endoscopy or a rectal probe for inflammatory bowel disease. So they're, they are using the light to try to heal this. It's just usually it's coming from the inside. And again, we have to put a label on this, Bjorn. Do not shove flex beam up your butt. Yeah. For your U.S. audience specifically, we set it here, right? That's right. Do not stick it in your butt. But yeah, it's quite amazing to me that light can do this.

30:38And I think it's because I'm so used to seeing the chamois underpowered stuff. This thing is quite powerful. I mean, you can just sort of tell when you're use. I mean, again, it gets warm and it's really like it's different from a shower head that's maybe got an LED or my toothbrush, which, of course, you don't feel anything. I suppose now is as good a time as any to ask about how it actually works. You mentioned mitochondria. I think people need to some people said, oh, the powerhouse of the cell. And that's all they remember. How does this work? The light stimulates the mitochondria, makes more energy, ATP, I guess it would be.

31:11And then like what happens? Why do we want that? What is that doing? I mean, the typical reduced explanation is that it's energy that your body or your cells already need and convert to energy. So therefore, the light energy is converted. So it's like similar to the battery analogy, which is not really a metaphor because your body actually is a battery. This is one of those moments when I met Dr. Zulia and she talked all the time about, oh, energy in your body battery and I was like, oh yeah, okay. I see it as a metaphor or like a solar cell panel. Okay. Like an analogy, but actually not. When you look into the physiology, your body is a battery.

31:53I think that there are now even tracking devices that are trying to use this as a sort of your body battery is like this and this percentage. However, they can measure that probably not so accurately. Maybe not. The energy idea, that sort of one level of explanation, it is a bit of a shortcut because there is kind of a biological chain reaction that happens with the light. So some wavelengths on the red and near infrared spectrum, and it's very specific to near infrared, right? So when you say that light can do this, I am also amazed, but it's only near infrared light that can do this, not any other wavelength of light.

32:28But some wavelengths in the spectrum, they interact with mitochondrial enzymes that are involved in the respiration of the cell. So this interaction of the light can improve efficiency of ATP production, and it can reduce what's called oxidative stress signaling. So oxidative stress is sort of like your car battery needs to have something around that cools the power. Otherwise, it would overheat. Oxidative stress is a response in your cells to something being overstimulated. So it has to produce a lot of other like another mechanism to actually offset the stimulus. So this interaction of light that happens with near-infrared wavelengths, it reduces oxidative stress, which is another bonus for the cell.

33:12So it's not technically supercharging the cell directly, but it's improving the efficiency of the cell to do its job. And the job of the cells is really to repair and to recover. Your body is working nonstop to just repair and recycle what can be used and so on. This entire process, which involves a chain reaction with fun names like cytochrome C oxidase and reactive oxygen species and a release of nitric oxide, which is a vasodilating principle. That means you get more blood flow and oxygenation downstream from when the cells actually receive this signaling. All of this chain reaction, it boils down to an improved efficiency in how the cells operate.

33:59that's what you can harness with this light. You can basically force the cells into this mode in which they become much more efficient. I suppose humans were probably mostly in that mode when we spent all of our time outside. So being indoors and not getting even 10 % of the amount of sun we used to get as humans back in the day, back in our sort of out of Africa kind of days, right? I think that probably there's a huge difference because I'm always like, okay, why didn't we evolve to need less of this? And I guess the truth is we evolved to use the sun when we were in the sun for 10 hours a day or eight hours a day, or you up in Norway four hours a day, or however much sun you get over there.

34:43Because now I'm inside all day, never getting any of that. So I have to either go outside for, like you said, a few hours at a time, or use something on a specific part of the body. Yeah, that's a good argument for going outside more as well, I suppose. because your whole body, in theory, needs this, right? It's not just like the sore neck that you have or your sore, the muscle you pulled in your leg. Yeah, your body absolutely needs it. And if it doesn't get this at all, if you live in a cave or if you're an astronaut in a space station in a suit encapsulated that blocks everything, your body doesn't heal.

35:17Like that was the initial research that showed the NASA research that sparked a lot of this interest in the field is to see, actually, if you don't get any of these wavelengths, your body will just stop healing and eventually you will die if you don't have any sunlight at all. That's, of course, an extreme case because mostly we have some access to it. But something shifted in our culture around a century ago, where we also have the rise of modern medicine is hyper-focused on pharmaceuticals and molecular biology, which has a lot of good uses. And there's all kinds of reasons to be supportive of some of that.

35:52But it happened at the same time as we kind of neglected or lost our appreciation for what the sun does. Because if you were like, got really ill, your body was struggling with infections and stuff 100, 150 years ago, what many doctors would do, they would send you to a place called a sanatorium. It's a place where you would just literally be sunbathing, taking saltwater baths, maybe mud baths to get more electrons going and then back in the sun, because that's actually what would heal the body. But somehow we lost a little bit of this knowledge that the sun is the ultimate healer and focused entirely on precision medicine with pharmaceuticals.

36:29And now it's accelerated in the last two to three decades as we also got indoor LED lighting and everything is very sort of indoor focused, right? So with the NASA thing that you mentioned before, is that kind of where the research began? Because I know that there's always this sort of a lot of red light therapy devices are like based on NASA research and Flexbeam also does that. I'm like, OK, well, what was NASA doing with red light therapy? So you're You're saying it's because the astronauts are up there not getting enough sun and they need to be exposed to that to stay healthy? It was in the early 2000s.

36:59They looked into some of the research. So there was research before NASA, but NASA accelerated it. So NASA basically turned to the first peer-reviewed papers on the effect of light therapy was about lasers. This is really downstream from the invention of laser. And in the 70s already, their first experimenters were seeing effects on hair and skin and stuff from using lasers that they didn't quite understand. In the 90s, there were the first peer-reviewed studies came out. In the early 2000s, NASA set out to try to solve a problem they had or test out a solution to a problem. And it is that if an astronaut injured themselves in space or got a, I don't know, pulled something or injured themselves, they wouldn't heal.

37:39Sure. So they started experimenting with this. What happens if we just give them red and infrared light? Well, then the recovery process started. So in a way, NASA, I would say, was a catalyst and not the inventor of this. It's not that they wouldn't heal at all, right? That can't be right. Like if you pull a muscle and you don't get any light, you just don't heal at all. It has to heal a little bit, right? Or not? Like it heals slower and slower and slower. I see. So it's not like it cuts off the moment you don't have any sun. Like your body has stored a lot. But over time, if you don't get any additional, any sunlight or outdoor light, even ambient light over a long time, this is analogous to living in a cave.

38:16It's not the lack of food that necessarily will kill you in the cave. It is the lack of sunlight. I did not know that. I guess humans are sort of like plants in that way, right? We are exactly like plants. And that's exactly the insight, which is so mind bending. But that's what the research reveals. We need sunlight the same way plants do. We have a more complicated photosynthesis, you could say, through the mitochondria than plants do, but it's the exact same principle. And everything we think of as energy also is downstream from the sun's energy, right? So whether we're burning, I mean, fossil fuels underground is just an energy layer that's like stored.

38:53All the food that we consider to be energy, it all gets its energy from the sun and the same kind of wavelengths, right? So what has been rediscovered is that this direct exposure to these wavelengths actually has a direct impact on your health. I mean, I would argue from the research, it's the most fundamental condition for your health is light. If you don't have any light at all, like nothing else is going to work. But it's mostly overlooked as a fundamental because it's seen to be just we just have it. We take it for granted. Is there a limit to how much power you can put in this thing and still sell it legally?

39:26Like, is there a difference between, I don't know, one that you can use in a hospital and one that you can buy at home? Is that sort of regulated? I have no idea about any of this in the United States, especially. There are regulations on this that have to do with how much you heat up or if things if the devices get too hot and things like this. I see. So there is a way to calculate what's the max wattage you would put and so on. Got it. OK, I was just curious because I figured it's like, well, this is also not a more is better situation, like you said, with the dose. Right. So you don't want to just absolutely blast yourself with this because it's I don't know, it'd be like, well, first of all, it's unnecessary.

40:01What's the difference? You save five minutes, but the thing costs 10 times more and is heavier and can't be sold in the EU. I don't know. It doesn't make sense. What do you think is the biggest lie in the red light therapy industry? Besides what we've covered so far, right, where you can put an LED in a toothbrush and have it do something. Yeah. Besides these sort of most outrageous things that you see that people put into it. Yeah, like instead of just outright scams of, you know, hey, there's an LED in my toothbrush or there's in the showerhead or something like that. What do you think is sort of the biggest myth or lie in the industry that you're that you're constantly fighting against, battling with?

40:35There is no, I wouldn't say it's a it's not a it's not a lie. I haven't seen lies other than I see people cheating on their tech specs and things like this when we tested that they claim they have a power that they don't do, etc. So I guess there are some actors in the space that lie about their own research and overstretch their claims. But for me, the biggest misconception or the difficulty I have with this is around the use of the word red light therapy, actually, because it glosses over the near infrared aspect. and right now red light has an explosion of cosmetic applications a lot of bullshit products also that are running the hype but it's true that red light can work really well on the skin that was the number one sort of most evidenced thing that i found when i was looking at this is like that it can that's got the most evidence is that it can help your skin from what i understand it's the most use cases it isn't studied as much as many of the inflammation and other i see like aspects, but it has so many use cases and people can usually see it if they have a good device and so on, but that's only that skin deep, right?

41:41So when we talk about red light therapy, we understand red and red light and red light and skin go together, but often neglects the real power driver of the switches, the near infrared, those wavelengths that can actually penetrate your skin because red light won't, it will just work in the surface, right? So you can't take your face mask and put that on your gut or heal your knee. That makes sense, I suppose, because if it's designed to go two millimeters deep or one centimeter or whatever, it's going to go one centimeter. And if you want something to go down towards the all the way through the tissue as much as possible, that's not going to be something you necessarily put on your face.

42:16It's going to be a different device with a different set of specs. Yeah. Yeah. And so my fear is I am trying to navigate this shifting landscape between like science on the one hand, marketing on the other, and consumer adoption and trying to stay true to our vision of what we think this technology is really good for. Red light therapy for cosmetics is kind of a distraction a little bit, or it's like it's an overhyping distraction. Yes, I mean, you can use, Flexbeam has a setting with red light in it. You can use it for your face or you can have a face mask and you can, you can get improved collagen production in your skin.

42:57But if people associate the power of red light therapy with only cosmetic surface, it's something that you do just to look pretty. You've completely glossed over what's the real potential here. What's the real health potential. Once again, this episode is brought to you by FlexBeam and the following sponsors.

43:18Now for the rest of my conversation with Bjorn Eckeberg. What do you think is the most outrageous claim you've seen in this space? Because when I was researching this, I found some whoppers for sure. Oh, I would love to hear them. Just people saying that it can cure things like IBS, for example, or just products that clearly don't go that can't penetrate because the wattage is like very, very small, you know, like so the size of a bulb, the size of a watch face that, you know, you're supposed to move around various parts of your body to it just doesn't make any sense or things that claim they can act on bones themselves in a shorter period of time.

43:59And I'm like, even if your bones are responding to this, it would take like months of use, you know, to heal a spinal fracture, for example, just stuff like that. I just found some complete nonsense out there. Yeah, there is a lot of nonsense. I've become used. I've become almost desensitized to it over the years when I see it. But most of the outrageous claims are in the disconnect between physical output and what's required for the body and what the claims say. So for example, you know, a$50 or$100 Amazon wrap belt with lots of LED diodes, you measure this thing, it has almost no power output of any significance to go anywhere, but they will quote the same things that we do or any red light therapy panel company that has like huge power source, right?

44:44Just like to bookmark the same sort of references of what it can do. So the overstating of claims, that's what I find the most outrageous. There are some things that you cannot fix. If you say IBS, for example, we actually have positive results with IBS, but over a long time. Yeah. Like with this device, because you can get it close to the skin. But I mean, red light therapy won't fix an autoimmune disease. There's a lot of neurological forms of pain that it will probably not help with. And generally speaking, it's about your health condition as well. If you're sleep deprived or you are inflamed from diet, you're stressed out, you're sedentary, all of those big physical health markers.

45:23getting one light device is not going to change that in an instant. But using it as a, say, a very strong, like a powerful biological nudge, and you also want to make some other changes that are positive for you, you can see compound effects, right? So it's usually not just one thing. And I think very often the outrageous claims, they exist in the space in which people also project kind of magic fixes onto devices. Yeah, it's playing with the consumer's own projections of, oh, maybe this thing will fix me or this thing will cure me. Very common in the wellness and biohacking space. Biohacking, the problem with it, the whole space, right, is it starts off with science and then it quickly sort of devolves into marketing.

46:07And it does a disservice to everything because then you end up with a lot of skeptics like me, actually, who say, hey, look, a lot of these wellness claims, they just far outpace the actual evidence. And then it's sort of a rate, almost like a race to the bottom. them. I mean, one of the things I didn't mention, because it was too silly, but I'll mention it anyway. One of the things I found was there were guys that were doing some kind of like penis exercises, and then they had these wraps that they would wrap of red light around it. And I was just thinking like, this is probably the height of that's not doing anything, right?

46:37Like, but people go, oh, it makes your dick bigger. And it's like, wow, literally people think that and they are wrapping LED kind of sleeves that have, you know, a AA battery attached to it or a USB, you know, power source. And they're just leaving that on there and just thinking like, this is peak stupid. Yeah, that would be peak stupid. It does have effect on testosterone if you use it right, but probably not size and like that anything would grow. It reminds me also when we launched our product, like our FlexBeam initially, there was another device that came on the market was a fat iron. And that was also using light and all kinds of things.

47:15I had problems sleeping that night. We were launching on the same platform that also marketed to the same audience. Yeah. You know, like, oh, just melt the fat away with like an iron. You just like run over and just like, this is crazy. That is crazy. But these things don't really survive. Right. And I think we also live in a world with enough information accessible that over time, if you just have outrageous, stupid things and maybe you get some quick sells and some quick fixes, but these things don't have substance. Yeah. after all. You mentioned testosterone. How would you affect testosterone with something, with red light therapy?

47:46Do you have to actually put it on your testicles? Does it just work as a, as a, as a, in general on your body? Like how does, how does that work? Yeah. Dr. Zulia has devised a protocol for this and tested on users and refined it. It's very specific with testosterone. There's a placement to you. You want to have it, but on your lower back is where some of the glands that support testosterone. So you don't necessarily put it straight on your balls. And there is a relief. So knowing something about how your body works, this is also where that clinical expertise comes in handy that you use it the right way.

48:21From what I remember, her recommendation for exposing your testicles is a very, very limited time because it doesn't need a lot and they're very sensitive. Yeah. But there is a protocol for that. Very little skin on the outside of those. I mean, not a whole lot of tissue you have to go through. So a couple of minutes with stimulation, some of the glands over time. We have use cases with data points that we measured in blood and so on over time. So it can work in the right sequences. This is not the main reason why people buy our device. But we do get these questions a lot. Testosterone, hair growth is very common as well.

48:55That I've seen. That's another one where I've seen like hair growth. And again, that's where there's one that's$15 and then the other one that's$1 ,500. And you're just like, OK, wait a minute. The$15 one is a, what, a Velcro hat with LEDs on it, which it, you know, is. Yeah. I have to say very, very questionable. There is like evidence around hair growth and red light, like a positive correlation over time. But a lot of these devices I see is just like whether it's a cap or a helmet, the quality and the output, the consistency over time and so on. It really varies. It's not a universal quick fix.

49:30It can help a lot of people. But also, if you're losing hair super quickly, that's like you can't turn a tide. Right. But for some men with certain baldness, it can help to prevent and stop. And then slowly you can potentially regrow some hair. I mean, one of our ambassadors is Brian Johnson, who has used his own devices for this and try to, you know, gain hair growth. So I know it can work, but he's also taking a ton of supplements to support it and so on. When I look at the research, I think hair is like it's promising, but it's nowhere near. I wouldn't even put in the top 10 of potential like strong applications for red light therapy.

50:09I think it speaks more to where consumers are and that people are desperate for solutions. Yeah, you're right. It's one of those like, OK, what's trending right now? Red light therapy. What problem is trending right now? Hair loss, erectile dysfunction. Right. And they just go, ah, let's just make a red light therapy, erectile dysfunction. dick wrap. It's like, you know, all right, sell it on Amazon, 20 bucks. And it's, you know, two bucks to manufacture because it's just red LEDs, like the ones in my toothbrush. I know we're running out of time here. I'm curious, what's the most surprising physiological effect you've seen users experience?

50:43Was there anything that even surprised you? Or like, oh, it's this, this is happening in the body when, when we use this, I didn't expect that. So for myself, I've mostly just had these muscle improvements from sore muscles and what you would expect. Like I have a lower back sort of that often has been pulled out too many times and that can flare up and it's kept in check by using FlexBeam. These kinds of things I had in my first year of trying the device. So I don't have for my personally some amazing benefit beyond what the typical muscular skeletal benefits are. But in the early days when we just started, we launched the device and we interacted with a lot of our users to try to get sort of case studies back and those that work, tracking devices.

51:28And so one of the first things that popped up was a guy who used it with his Oura ring and he had a deep sleep problem persistent for a long time and he's really concerned about it. And he had a huge response, like the first night after using FlexMe, he had about two hours of deep sleep. And then he started documenting this over time. We gave him a protocol and he was consistent over time that for him, it really worked, like clearly shown in the data that it improved his deep sleep overall sleep pattern over time. and that's the moment when I realized that this is going deeper. It's affecting something that is not just like healing a sore muscle, that it has some sort of other capacity and this capacity to go deep and have that kind of effect.

52:10It was initially surprising to me because we didn't design the device to help people support their sleep. I would like to try that. If you wouldn't mind sending me that protocol, I would like to try that because I also get like 14 minutes of deep sleep most nights and I've tried everything. A night mask, cold, shower before, or bed, you know, I've done everything. And I just kind of, you know, the sleep doctor was like, maybe you just don't need that much deep sleep. And I'm like, I don't know. That's a thing. It's a good thing to try. From my own experience, we tried it on lots of people now.

52:37We got lots of feedback. It isn't 100 % works for everyone. Some people get a little bit more stimulated, but a lot of people respond favorably to using the protocol. It like puts them more into deep sleep. And the protocol also calls for you to use it in the morning. So to help reset the circadian rhythm, because actually if you get sunshine in the morning also will help your sleep. That's another, you don't need a flex beam for that. But if you have that in addition, it will help. So that was the first sign to me that we're onto something more than a targeted injury thing. It's a very powerful application.

53:09And it also changed my perception of what this is from just muscular things. I mean, look, hopefully we're onto something with this. But besides, in closing here, besides red light therapy, what's one belief about human biology that you hold now that you think is going to be obvious to everyone in 20 years, but seems maybe a little bit fringe today? I mean, honestly, it's what we've been talking about here for the last hour, the effect of light and sunlight. And I think it's twinned. It's one thing is the energy that comes from the sun that we become more mindful of this. All the light we don't see, because this is really what it's about.

53:44It's the invisible light that we're bathing in and that it's affecting us in ways we don't understand. That's been my discovery now through the research and doing all of this work. And I do think that this is going to become or like just become something that everybody knows and realizes within a certain amount of time. The twin aspect of that in our modern lifestyle is the lights that surround us daily indoors and how terrible they are for us. Most of the indoor LED contraptions, there's growing awareness of this as well. But I don't think it's entirely understood how what a potential driver this is of disrupting people's rhythms and disrupting sleep, disrupting all kinds of biological signaling.

54:24Yeah. So we have supplanted the sun with some really strange modern inventions that have been designed for one purpose. And that design was that purpose was not health. Sure. Yeah. Do you use blue blockers and things like that at night before bed? Those are the glasses that block. I've tried them. I fell into that biohacking bucket 12 years ago. I discovered that stuff and I adopted a lot of those kinds of principles around dieting and sleep and exercise and all of this. I don't call myself a biohacker because I think the term is super silly. And since then, what I've seen is that it's become a commercialization engine.

55:00Yes. Like where it's maybe like more marketing than it is science. And it's actually been surprising to me over the 12 years. It's still the same stuff. like what they're touting now as 12 years ago, is just now it's hyper-commercialized. And you can see the, you know, the grandfather of biohacking will go on a show and talk about science and he will sneak in a discount code at the end, right? For a product that he's selling that's not his own. This has now become common in that field. And I think like you, that it's sort of, it's a threat to wider adoption. Yeah, I think that's one of the main issues is that you look at something, you know, people will see something like this and go, okay, that's just snake oil.

55:41It's a bunch of nonsense. And for me, I was, I have to say, I was almost doing the same thing. I was like, oh, it wants to talk about red light therapy. Isn't that like one of those scammy things? And then I started really, I researched it and I had my producers help me with that because I was like, okay, what does it actually do? Probably nothing. But that's not true. It does a bunch of things. Just that it doesn't make you taller and make your weighing bigger and make your hair grow back within three weeks or whatever. And so it's just, yeah, it does a disservice because people take it and then make a whole bunch of wild claims and then we throw out the baby with the bathwater, which is a shame.

56:12Yeah, that's kind of how I feel about biohacking also, though, because there's a lot of key principles I learned back in the day and that some of the people are touting that may not be in the form of, you know, supplements or things you can buy that are commercializable, but that are sound principles for living around diet and sleep and exercise and these things that isn't really anything new. It is just kind of a distilled knowledge. Yeah. I think that there's still a place for that. And we're in a point in our culture where, you know, medicine moves slower than wellness, but wellness moves faster than evidence, right?

56:46So that's kind of the cycle that we're in. And we keep trying to navigate this to find the sweet spot somewhere in between, because this kind of therapy is actually medicine, but we just don't sell it in the medical way. You don't have to be sick or identify as a patient or go to a doctor to use it. So it sits right in the sweet spot between medicine and wellness. Bjorn, thank you very much. Fascinating conversation, really interesting. And thank you for sending me this. I definitely want to try the deep sleep thing because that's like a sore neck is one thing, but if I can make my sleep better, I mean, that's a massive quality of life improvement.

57:22So I definitely want to give that a try. Yeah, it's definitely worth trying. And if you have your aura, you can easily see it over time as well. So I'll send you that. And anyone who buys a FlexBeam also becomes part of a membership program where we have these protocols accessible to people. So that's one of the ways in which we want to give people real guidelines to get results and not just buy a device and use it two, three times to tell their friends and leave it in the drawer because results come from consistency and from dosing. Perfect. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me on, John.

57:57thanks to bjorn for coming on the show all things bjorn and flex beam will be in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com advertisers deals discounts ways to support the show all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals please consider supporting those who support the show that includes of course flex beam today's sponsor i'm at jordan harbinger on both twitter and instagram you can also connect with me on linkedin this show is created in association with podcast one my team is jen harbinger jace sanderson robert fogerty tata sadlowskis ian baird and gabriel misrahi remember We rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting.

58:30In fact, the greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. So if you know somebody who's interested in red light therapy, wellness, health, science, or just the healing power of light, definitely share this episode with them. Hey, in the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time.